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There are 22 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
2. Re: Women ordination
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
3. Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
4. Re: Re: Women ordination
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
5. Secret rapture
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
6. Re: Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
7. Re: Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
8. Re: Secret rapture
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
9. Re: Re: Women ordination
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
10. Re: Secret rapture
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
11. Re: Secret rapture: Good Reference
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
12. Re: Secret rapture: Good Reference
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
13. Re: Secret rapture
From: "Thabo Nale" <nalet@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxx.xx.xxx
14. Un-Subscribe
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
15. Re: Un-Subscribe
From: "Vice-Rector for Academic Administration" <vradmit@xxx.xx.xxx
16. Re: Un-Subscribe
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
17. Re: Un-Subscribe
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
18. Gift
From: <tmautla@edgars.co.za>
19. Re: Gift
From: "Vice-Rector for Academic Administration" <vradmit@xxx.xx.xxx
20. Re: Un-Subscribe
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
21. Re: Secret rapture
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
22. Re: Gift
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:59:26 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
Jongimpi
I agree, I mixed up the two issues to the point where I confused myself, church discipline was supposed to illustrate my point, I do not believe that people should be disciplined for wearing jewelry.
However, wearing of jewelry, as you correctly pointed out, is a symptom of the problem. A person does not need take off the jewelry to solve the problem, they need to TAKE ON JESUS to solve the problem.
Our problem is that our attitude is: "How much of the world can I enjoy and still go to heaven."
When Christ is inside us, our attitude will be: "Lord, what more can I do"
As I said before, there are three things that we need, repentance, repentance and repentance!
Thanks my good Pastor; I really enjoyed this discussion!
He is even at the door!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/17 7:13 AM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Jerry
I fully agree with your detailed explanation of the predicament we often
found ourselves in trying to focus on the external rather than the inside.
On that I say Amen!
Somewhere you mentioned discipline as a way of illustrating your point. I
must say I agree with the first part, that it is not practical to discipline
one for selfishness but for murder or adultery, there is no problem.
Coming to the issue of jewellery, how do you discipline one who wears a
necklace? Maybe I should ask, why should that person be disciplined? In
my view no one has the right to go to a member and ask that member to take
off her/hisnecklace. That does not solve anything. Taking the necklace
off does not immediately create the inward beauty. The person might
substitute it with something else, say fine clothes. What have we
achieved?
Wearing a necklace,for example, is not a moral issue nor a health issue, it
might just be a symptom of something else. Let us deal with the issue
underlying the wearing of the necklace and not take a short cut by dealing
with the necklace. I believe that God is not offended by a necklace but He
is pleased by a gentle spirit. By taking off the necklace we are definitely
not pleasing God for He is not offended by it.
I still believe, Jerry, and I know you agree with me, as a church we need to
start focusing on the development of the inner person. For instance, who
care whether our young people do have a Sabbath school lesson, or a bible.
Who cares whether they have a vibrant prayer life or not. All we seem to
be concerned with is, you must not wear any jewellery, you must not wear any
jewellery, you must not wear any jewellery!!!!!!
Peace!
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Jongimpi,
I see the point you are making; to me it is similar to what Christ was
talking about when He spoke about letter of the law and the spirit of the
law.
Some times we emphasize the periphery and end losing the real point. In my
view Peter is addressing the question of adornment. The point that I see him
making is that what attracts people to us should not be how we look on the
outside but Christ who is in the inside. After people have met Jeremiah
what do they remember about him? Is he the young man with a fancy car, a
young man who wears suits with big labels, or they only remember his
Christ-like words/love and caring? The question is what attracts people to
you? A fellow that I knew very well once told me that he has two girl
friends and his car has six. Obviously he was not a Christian but I hope it
does serve to make a point.
What if there is no Christ in the inside? In the paper that I wrote few
years ago on the subject of Jewelry and Adventism (Presented at SDASA Dec
1992) there is story of a woman who specializes in marketing jewelry, she is
quoted as saying that jewelry helps people who have low self esteem to feel
better about themselves.
When there is nothing in the inside, we try to compensate by hanging some
things on the outside. When there is nothing in the inside we try to put
something expensive on the outside to try to get some attention.
As if that is not enough, some of the ladies are finding out that expensive
clothes and jewelry are not helping them, now leave their bodies outside the
clothes. Even that does not help since only Jesus can satisfy.
Yes, it seems like we are having double standards since we do not allow
members to wear jewelry whereas they are allowed to wear fine clothes. This
is the same question as why do we discipline people who commit murder and
leave those who commit falsehood. Should we leave disciplining those that
are committing murder just because we do not discipline those who commit
falsehood?
We need to understand the role and function of church discipline. Church
discipline just like home discipline is not judgment, it is a corrective
measure, blessed is the man/woman who receives discipline. We need to thank
God if the church disciplines us, that means there is still a hope for us,
and God loves us so much that He wants to correct us. Bearing in mind most
of those who excessive discipline in the church also need discipline.
What am I trying to say? If some one comes to you and ask you remove your
necklace, don't ask them why are they not undressing the sister who us
wearing Lauren Taylor costume, be grateful that Lord cares so much about you
to send some one to correct you.
There are Christian principles that are difficult to enforce, like bearing
false witness and wearing fine clothes, but that do not mean that we should
not try to correct our fellow brothers on other issues.
What really matters is my relationship with my Lord, however, some times we
lose the relationship and we don't even know it, but our works reveal that
we don't have that connection. In this situation we need the church/brothers
or sisters to correct us.
The King is even at the door!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/16 3:21 AM >>>
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
To: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 8:44 PM
Subject: Wearing of Jewellery!
Why is wearing of Jewellery such a major issue in the SDA church?
Before I go any further, let me share with you one of the traditional texts
often quoted as the basis for not wearing jewellery.
"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment,such as braided hair,
and the wearing of gold jewellery and fine clothes, Instead it should be
that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit,
which is of great worth in the sight of God." NIV
What is the main focus in this text? Is it the wearing of jewellery? To
me Peter is encouraging his listeners to focus on the inner beauty and not
the outward. He gives a few example of what it means to focus on the
outward.
What we have succeeded as as the church is to tell our members not to wear
jewellery, and this has become a sign of true adventism. What about the
gentle and quiet spirit Peter speaks of?
Who cares? As long as they are not wearing jewellery, then we can all go
home our business is over. What about fine clothes, who wants to dare and
talk about fine clothes? Today many of our members are sinking in the pool
of debt, because they are trying to look beautiful. As long as we focus on
the outward we will produce faithful legalists who think that they are saved
by not wearing jewellery, never mind the gentle spirit. It reminds me of
the Pharisees of old, they were masters of the outward, professional
externalists.
I believe that we need to start focussing on what Peter is emphasising in
this text and that is the inner beauty. This is the only solution to the
sickness of materialism that is engulfing our church today.
Should we wear jewellery or not? The answer is, what difference does it
make? The right question is, how can we develop an inner beauty?
Jongimpi
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The King is even at the door!
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
<a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 06:10:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Women ordination
Lungani,
You mistakenly sent this mail to Masabatha Online's Account instead
of the discussion list email which is sa-sda@onelist.com, I guess it
is a bit confusing.
Jeremiah
--- Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> wrote:
> ** Proprietary **
> ** Reply Requested When Convenient **
Dear fellow church members,
I have received this mail from a friend. I was wondering if you'd
be
able to entertain it.
"Tell me something, at the last world conference, women in our
church
could not be ordained at pastors. And if this is true, what was
the
reason for this. If they can, then I guess that is the end of my
questions."
I believe He is at the door.
Lungani
>
>
>
===
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
Jeremiah Ravhengani
Moderator (Masabatha Online)
www.masabatha.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:28:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
Brethren,
I came across the following interesting statement when I was
reading Pastor Morris Venden's book "95 Thesis On Righteousness By Faith"
"Our good works have nothing to do with CAUSING us to be saved, and our
bad works have nothing to do with CAUSING us to be lost."
I'm sorry that I cannot remember the page number, I can check it out.
What do you say about this statement? How do our works (good or bad)
relate to our salvation?
Keep Looking Up!
Daniel Bafana Dlongolo
4GL SYSTEMS
E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
Phone : +27 11 476 2224 (w)
Cell : +27 83 289 9975
South Africa
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:27:58 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Re: Women ordination
Lungani
As far as I can remember, I think the vote was for church unity and not for
either ordination or not. You see the world church is divided on the
issue, as such to preserve unity a decision was taken to maintain the status
quo, that is, women are not yet ordained as pastors in the SDA church.
Peace
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 3:15 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Women ordination
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Lungani,
You mistakenly sent this mail to Masabatha Online's Account instead
of the discussion list email which is sa-sda@onelist.com, I guess it
is a bit confusing.
Jeremiah
--- Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> wrote:
> ** Proprietary **
> ** Reply Requested When Convenient **
Dear fellow church members,
I have received this mail from a friend. I was wondering if you'd
be
able to entertain it.
"Tell me something, at the last world conference, women in our
church
could not be ordained at pastors. And if this is true, what was
the
reason for this. If they can, then I guess that is the end of my
questions."
I believe He is at the door.
Lungani
>
>
>
===
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
Jeremiah Ravhengani
Moderator (Masabatha Online)
www.masabatha.org
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
How do you enter ONElist’s WEEKLY DRAWING for $100?
By joining the FRIENDS & FAMILY program. For details, go to
http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:19:19 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Secret rapture
Greetings friends,
Tomorrow I will be having Bible study with my boss, he is a Baptist, he wants us to discuss the secret rapture, I have same few verses but I must admit I have never taken this issue seriously. It all started when he found me playing some gospel music in my office, and one thing lead to another until I gave him a copy of the Great Controversy (I keep few copies in the office). In explaining what the GC is all about the rapture came up, and I must say I was not prepared.
Can anyone out there in the Cyber-land help me with more info on this subject.
Everybody ought to know who Jesus is!
Jeremiah
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:06:13 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
** Proprietary **
** Reply Requested When Convenient **
Jerry,
You wrote: Wearing of jewelry is a symptom of the problem.
Gentlemen (Jerry and Jongimpi), thank you very much for the discussing
the topic at hand. It is quite a thrill to read your arguements which
do not just nourish the mind but the soul as well. Nontheless, I think
there has been some generalization to an issue which demands specifics.
I do not believe that it is a proven fact that every person wearing
jewelry has a problem. I know people who feel just as good whether or
not their have their jewelry on. But, one the other hand, I know of a
person who said that she felt naked when she did not have her earings
with (upbringing). People have different reasons for doing the same
thing. Motives and motivations, most unfortunately, are not things that
cannot be read by human eye. Even more sad is the fact that not all we
do can give you a true picture of who I really am within. Yes it is
true that at most instances people tend to use jewelry to boost their
low self-esteems, but still, that does not justify generalization -
that is a falacy.
Which brings me to a point I believe is most important to us all in
this shebang - whether or not I have a relation with a symptom of a
problem is none of any Christians business except caring for me and
showing me unconditional love. What can make me more like Christ is the
love that I see in your eyes. Who knows, may be you're the only Jesus I
will ever see.
Nevertheless, I do believe in all that has been discussed here before.
Thank you gentlemen.
I believe He is somewhere by the door.
Lungani
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 08/17 2:59 PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Jongimpi
I agree, I mixed up the two issues to the point where I confused
myself, church discipline was supposed to illustrate my point, I do not
believe that people should be disciplined for wearing jewelry.
However, wearing of jewelry, as you correctly pointed out, is a symptom
of the problem. A person does not need take off the jewelry to solve the
problem, they need to TAKE ON JESUS to solve the problem.
Our problem is that our attitude is: "How much of the world can I enjoy
and still go to heaven."
When Christ is inside us, our attitude will be: "Lord, what more can I
do"
As I said before, there are three things that we need, repentance,
repentance and repentance!
Thanks my good Pastor; I really enjoyed this discussion!
He is even at the door!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/17 7:13 AM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Jerry
I fully agree with your detailed explanation of the predicament we
often
found ourselves in trying to focus on the external rather than the
inside.
On that I say Amen!
Somewhere you mentioned discipline as a way of illustrating your point.
I
must say I agree with the first part, that it is not practical to
discipline
one for selfishness but for murder or adultery, there is no problem.
Coming to the issue of jewellery, how do you discipline one who wears
a
necklace? Maybe I should ask, why should that person be disciplined?
In
my view no one has the right to go to a member and ask that member to
take
off her/hisnecklace. That does not solve anything. Taking the
necklace
off does not immediately create the inward beauty. The person might
substitute it with something else, say fine clothes. What have we
achieved?
Wearing a necklace,for example, is not a moral issue nor a health
issue, it
might just be a symptom of something else. Let us deal with the
issue
underlying the wearing of the necklace and not take a short cut by
dealing
with the necklace. I believe that God is not offended by a necklace
but He
is pleased by a gentle spirit. By taking off the necklace we are
definitely
not pleasing God for He is not offended by it.
I still believe, Jerry, and I know you agree with me, as a church we
need to
start focusing on the development of the inner person. For instance,
who
care whether our young people do have a Sabbath school lesson, or a
bible.
Who cares whether they have a vibrant prayer life or not. All we seem
to
be concerned with is, you must not wear any jewellery, you must not
wear any
jewellery, you must not wear any jewellery!!!!!!
Peace!
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Jongimpi,
I see the point you are making; to me it is similar to what Christ was
talking about when He spoke about letter of the law and the spirit of
the
law.
Some times we emphasize the periphery and end losing the real point. In
my
view Peter is addressing the question of adornment. The point that I
see him
making is that what attracts people to us should not be how we look on
the
outside but Christ who is in the inside. After people have met
Jeremiah
what do they remember about him? Is he the young man with a fancy car,
a
young man who wears suits with big labels, or they only remember his
Christ-like words/love and caring? The question is what attracts
people to
you? A fellow that I knew very well once told me that he has two girl
friends and his car has six. Obviously he was not a Christian but I
hope it
does serve to make a point.
What if there is no Christ in the inside? In the paper that I wrote
few
years ago on the subject of Jewelry and Adventism (Presented at SDASA
Dec
1992) there is story of a woman who specializes in marketing jewelry,
she is
quoted as saying that jewelry helps people who have low self esteem to
feel
better about themselves.
When there is nothing in the inside, we try to compensate by hanging
some
things on the outside. When there is nothing in the inside we try to
put
something expensive on the outside to try to get some attention.
As if that is not enough, some of the ladies are finding out that
expensive
clothes and jewelry are not helping them, now leave their bodies
outside the
clothes. Even that does not help since only Jesus can satisfy.
Yes, it seems like we are having double standards since we do not
allow
members to wear jewelry whereas they are allowed to wear fine clothes.
This
is the same question as why do we discipline people who commit murder
and
leave those who commit falsehood. Should we leave disciplining those
that
are committing murder just because we do not discipline those who
commit
falsehood?
We need to understand the role and function of church discipline.
Church
discipline just like home discipline is not judgment, it is a
corrective
measure, blessed is the man/woman who receives discipline. We need to
thank
God if the church disciplines us, that means there is still a hope for
us,
and God loves us so much that He wants to correct us. Bearing in mind
most
of those who excessive discipline in the church also need discipline.
What am I trying to say? If some one comes to you and ask you remove
your
necklace, don't ask them why are they not undressing the sister who us
wearing Lauren Taylor costume, be grateful that Lord cares so much
about you
to send some one to correct you.
There are Christian principles that are difficult to enforce, like
bearing
false witness and wearing fine clothes, but that do not mean that we
should
not try to correct our fellow brothers on other issues.
What really matters is my relationship with my Lord, however, some
times we
lose the relationship and we don't even know it, but our works reveal
that
we don't have that connection. In this situation we need the
church/brothers
or sisters to correct us.
The King is even at the door!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/16 3:21 AM >>>
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
To: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 8:44 PM
Subject: Wearing of Jewellery!
Why is wearing of Jewellery such a major issue in the SDA church?
Before I go any further, let me share with you one of the traditional
texts
often quoted as the basis for not wearing jewellery.
"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment,such as braided
hair,
and the wearing of gold jewellery and fine clothes, Instead it should
be
that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet
spirit,
which is of great worth in the sight of God." NIV
What is the main focus in this text? Is it the wearing of jewellery?
To
me Peter is encouraging his listeners to focus on the inner beauty and
not
the outward. He gives a few example of what it means to focus on the
outward.
What we have succeeded as as the church is to tell our members not to
wear
jewellery, and this has become a sign of true adventism. What about
the
gentle and quiet spirit Peter speaks of?
Who cares? As long as they are not wearing jewellery, then we can all
go
home our business is over. What about fine clothes, who wants to dare
and
talk about fine clothes? Today many of our members are sinking in the
pool
of debt, because they are trying to look beautiful. As long as we
focus on
the outward we will produce faithful legalists who think that they are
saved
by not wearing jewellery, never mind the gentle spirit. It reminds me
of
the Pharisees of old, they were masters of the outward, professional
externalists.
I believe that we need to start focussing on what Peter is emphasising
in
this text and that is the inner beauty. This is the only solution to
the
sickness of materialism that is engulfing our church today.
Should we wear jewellery or not? The answer is, what difference does
it
make? The right question is, how can we develop an inner beauty?
Jongimpi
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
----------------------------
You can WIN $100 to Amazon.com!
If you join ONElist*s FRIENDS & FAMILY program. For details, go to
http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
----------------------------
ATTN ONELIST USERS: stay current on the latest activities,
programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
<a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce
">Click</a>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
----------------------------
Show your ONElist SPIRIT!
http://www.onelist.com/store/tshirts.html
With a new ONElist SHIRT available through our website.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:56:06 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
I fully agree with your concluding statements, I couldn't have said it in a better way.
Jeremiah
>>> "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> 08/17 10:06 AM >>>
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
** Proprietary **
** Reply Requested When Convenient **
Jerry,
You wrote: Wearing of jewelry is a symptom of the problem.
Gentlemen (Jerry and Jongimpi), thank you very much for the discussing
the topic at hand. It is quite a thrill to read your arguements which
do not just nourish the mind but the soul as well. Nontheless, I think
there has been some generalization to an issue which demands specifics.
I do not believe that it is a proven fact that every person wearing
jewelry has a problem. I know people who feel just as good whether or
not their have their jewelry on. But, one the other hand, I know of a
person who said that she felt naked when she did not have her earings
with (upbringing). People have different reasons for doing the same
thing. Motives and motivations, most unfortunately, are not things that
cannot be read by human eye. Even more sad is the fact that not all we
do can give you a true picture of who I really am within. Yes it is
true that at most instances people tend to use jewelry to boost their
low self-esteems, but still, that does not justify generalization -
that is a falacy.
Which brings me to a point I believe is most important to us all in
this shebang - whether or not I have a relation with a symptom of a
problem is none of any Christians business except caring for me and
showing me unconditional love. What can make me more like Christ is the
love that I see in your eyes. Who knows, may be you're the only Jesus I
will ever see.
Nevertheless, I do believe in all that has been discussed here before.
Thank you gentlemen.
I believe He is somewhere by the door.
Lungani
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 08/17 2:59 PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Jongimpi
I agree, I mixed up the two issues to the point where I confused
myself, church discipline was supposed to illustrate my point, I do not
believe that people should be disciplined for wearing jewelry.
However, wearing of jewelry, as you correctly pointed out, is a symptom
of the problem. A person does not need take off the jewelry to solve the
problem, they need to TAKE ON JESUS to solve the problem.
Our problem is that our attitude is: "How much of the world can I enjoy
and still go to heaven."
When Christ is inside us, our attitude will be: "Lord, what more can I
do"
As I said before, there are three things that we need, repentance,
repentance and repentance!
Thanks my good Pastor; I really enjoyed this discussion!
He is even at the door!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/17 7:13 AM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Jerry
I fully agree with your detailed explanation of the predicament we
often
found ourselves in trying to focus on the external rather than the
inside.
On that I say Amen!
Somewhere you mentioned discipline as a way of illustrating your point.
I
must say I agree with the first part, that it is not practical to
discipline
one for selfishness but for murder or adultery, there is no problem.
Coming to the issue of jewellery, how do you discipline one who wears
a
necklace? Maybe I should ask, why should that person be disciplined?
In
my view no one has the right to go to a member and ask that member to
take
off her/hisnecklace. That does not solve anything. Taking the
necklace
off does not immediately create the inward beauty. The person might
substitute it with something else, say fine clothes. What have we
achieved?
Wearing a necklace,for example, is not a moral issue nor a health
issue, it
might just be a symptom of something else. Let us deal with the
issue
underlying the wearing of the necklace and not take a short cut by
dealing
with the necklace. I believe that God is not offended by a necklace
but He
is pleased by a gentle spirit. By taking off the necklace we are
definitely
not pleasing God for He is not offended by it.
I still believe, Jerry, and I know you agree with me, as a church we
need to
start focusing on the development of the inner person. For instance,
who
care whether our young people do have a Sabbath school lesson, or a
bible.
Who cares whether they have a vibrant prayer life or not. All we seem
to
be concerned with is, you must not wear any jewellery, you must not
wear any
jewellery, you must not wear any jewellery!!!!!!
Peace!
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Jongimpi,
I see the point you are making; to me it is similar to what Christ was
talking about when He spoke about letter of the law and the spirit of
the
law.
Some times we emphasize the periphery and end losing the real point. In
my
view Peter is addressing the question of adornment. The point that I
see him
making is that what attracts people to us should not be how we look on
the
outside but Christ who is in the inside. After people have met
Jeremiah
what do they remember about him? Is he the young man with a fancy car,
a
young man who wears suits with big labels, or they only remember his
Christ-like words/love and caring? The question is what attracts
people to
you? A fellow that I knew very well once told me that he has two girl
friends and his car has six. Obviously he was not a Christian but I
hope it
does serve to make a point.
What if there is no Christ in the inside? In the paper that I wrote
few
years ago on the subject of Jewelry and Adventism (Presented at SDASA
Dec
1992) there is story of a woman who specializes in marketing jewelry,
she is
quoted as saying that jewelry helps people who have low self esteem to
feel
better about themselves.
When there is nothing in the inside, we try to compensate by hanging
some
things on the outside. When there is nothing in the inside we try to
put
something expensive on the outside to try to get some attention.
As if that is not enough, some of the ladies are finding out that
expensive
clothes and jewelry are not helping them, now leave their bodies
outside the
clothes. Even that does not help since only Jesus can satisfy.
Yes, it seems like we are having double standards since we do not
allow
members to wear jewelry whereas they are allowed to wear fine clothes.
This
is the same question as why do we discipline people who commit murder
and
leave those who commit falsehood. Should we leave disciplining those
that
are committing murder just because we do not discipline those who
commit
falsehood?
We need to understand the role and function of church discipline.
Church
discipline just like home discipline is not judgment, it is a
corrective
measure, blessed is the man/woman who receives discipline. We need to
thank
God if the church disciplines us, that means there is still a hope for
us,
and God loves us so much that He wants to correct us. Bearing in mind
most
of those who excessive discipline in the church also need discipline.
What am I trying to say? If some one comes to you and ask you remove
your
necklace, don't ask them why are they not undressing the sister who us
wearing Lauren Taylor costume, be grateful that Lord cares so much
about you
to send some one to correct you.
There are Christian principles that are difficult to enforce, like
bearing
false witness and wearing fine clothes, but that do not mean that we
should
not try to correct our fellow brothers on other issues.
What really matters is my relationship with my Lord, however, some
times we
lose the relationship and we don't even know it, but our works reveal
that
we don't have that connection. In this situation we need the
church/brothers
or sisters to correct us.
The King is even at the door!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/16 3:21 AM >>>
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
To: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 8:44 PM
Subject: Wearing of Jewellery!
Why is wearing of Jewellery such a major issue in the SDA church?
Before I go any further, let me share with you one of the traditional
texts
often quoted as the basis for not wearing jewellery.
"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment,such as braided
hair,
and the wearing of gold jewellery and fine clothes, Instead it should
be
that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet
spirit,
which is of great worth in the sight of God." NIV
What is the main focus in this text? Is it the wearing of jewellery?
To
me Peter is encouraging his listeners to focus on the inner beauty and
not
the outward. He gives a few example of what it means to focus on the
outward.
What we have succeeded as as the church is to tell our members not to
wear
jewellery, and this has become a sign of true adventism. What about
the
gentle and quiet spirit Peter speaks of?
Who cares? As long as they are not wearing jewellery, then we can all
go
home our business is over. What about fine clothes, who wants to dare
and
talk about fine clothes? Today many of our members are sinking in the
pool
of debt, because they are trying to look beautiful. As long as we
focus on
the outward we will produce faithful legalists who think that they are
saved
by not wearing jewellery, never mind the gentle spirit. It reminds me
of
the Pharisees of old, they were masters of the outward, professional
externalists.
I believe that we need to start focussing on what Peter is emphasising
in
this text and that is the inner beauty. This is the only solution to
the
sickness of materialism that is engulfing our church today.
Should we wear jewellery or not? The answer is, what difference does
it
make? The right question is, how can we develop an inner beauty?
Jongimpi
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:50:20 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Secret rapture
I usually contact Dr Reed at the Biblical Rresearch Institute when I have
any queries.
74617.2245@Compuserve.com
Greetings
Shirley Allen
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 04:20
Subject: [sa-sda] Secret rapture
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>
>Greetings friends,
>
>Tomorrow I will be having Bible study with my boss, he is a Baptist, he
wants us to discuss the secret rapture, I have same few verses but I must
admit I have never taken this issue seriously. It all started when he found
me playing some gospel music in my office, and one thing lead to another
until I gave him a copy of the Great Controversy (I keep few copies in the
office). In explaining what the GC is all about the rapture came up, and I
must say I was not prepared.
>Can anyone out there in the Cyber-land help me with more info on this
subject.
>
>Everybody ought to know who Jesus is!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits.
>
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>The King is even at the door!
>
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_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:07:49 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: Women ordination
Lungani,
To add on that, the vote in 1995 was on whether to allow Divisions of the SDA church to make their own decision on the issue of ordaination of woman. That decision would have resulted in Divisions e.g NAD allowing ordination and may EAD not allowing ordination.
Signs of the times are everywhere!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/17 9:27 AM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Lungani
As far as I can remember, I think the vote was for church unity and not for
either ordination or not. You see the world church is divided on the
issue, as such to preserve unity a decision was taken to maintain the status
quo, that is, women are not yet ordained as pastors in the SDA church.
Peace
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 3:15 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Women ordination
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Lungani,
You mistakenly sent this mail to Masabatha Online's Account instead
of the discussion list email which is sa-sda@onelist.com, I guess it
is a bit confusing.
Jeremiah
--- Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> wrote:
> ** Proprietary **
> ** Reply Requested When Convenient **
Dear fellow church members,
I have received this mail from a friend. I was wondering if you'd
be
able to entertain it.
"Tell me something, at the last world conference, women in our
church
could not be ordained at pastors. And if this is true, what was
the
reason for this. If they can, then I guess that is the end of my
questions."
I believe He is at the door.
Lungani
>
>
>
===
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
Jeremiah Ravhengani
Moderator (Masabatha Online)
www.masabatha.org
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:10:10 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Secret rapture
Thanks Shirley,
I will try to contact him/her
Jeremiah
>>> "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za> 08/17 10:50 AM >>>
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
I usually contact Dr Reed at the Biblical Rresearch Institute when I have
any queries.
74617.2245@Compuserve.com
Greetings
Shirley Allen
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 04:20
Subject: [sa-sda] Secret rapture
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>
>Greetings friends,
>
>Tomorrow I will be having Bible study with my boss, he is a Baptist, he
wants us to discuss the secret rapture, I have same few verses but I must
admit I have never taken this issue seriously. It all started when he found
me playing some gospel music in my office, and one thing lead to another
until I gave him a copy of the Great Controversy (I keep few copies in the
office). In explaining what the GC is all about the rapture came up, and I
must say I was not prepared.
>Can anyone out there in the Cyber-land help me with more info on this
subject.
>
>Everybody ought to know who Jesus is!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The King is even at the door!
>
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:23:22 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
Subject: Re: Secret rapture: Good Reference
Brother Jeremiah,
The following document, by Dr Erwin R. Gane, will be very useful in your
discussion:
www.tagnet.org/sthsda/ARTICLE12.htm
Alternatively, you can search for "secret rapture' in TAGNET.
May God be with you in your discussion.
Keep Looking Up.
Daniel Bafana Dlongolo
4GL SYSTEMS
E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
Phone : +27 11 476 2224 (w)
Cell : +27 83 289 9975
South Africa
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:27:26 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Secret rapture: Good Reference
Thanks Daniel,
It looks like what I really needed,
Thank God for the the cyber family!
Heaven is now in view!
Jeremiah
>>> Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za> 08/17 1:23 PM >>>
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
Brother Jeremiah,
The following document, by Dr Erwin R. Gane, will be very useful in your
discussion:
www.tagnet.org/sthsda/ARTICLE12.htm
Alternatively, you can search for "secret rapture' in TAGNET.
May God be with you in your discussion.
Keep Looking Up.
Daniel Bafana Dlongolo
4GL SYSTEMS
E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
Phone : +27 11 476 2224 (w)
Cell : +27 83 289 9975
South Africa
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:01:33 +0200
From: "Thabo Nale" <nalet@telkom32.telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Secret rapture
Greeting Jerry,
I had your out-cry and please find the attached MS-Word document on the
subject. If you have any problems opening it, please let me know.
I pray that this gets you in time for you discussion and may the Lord
add his blessings also. Remember, win the soul, not the arguement.
Christian regards
Thabo Nale
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 08/17 4:19 PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Greetings friends,
Tomorrow I will be having Bible study with my boss, he is a Baptist, he
wants us to discuss the secret rapture, I have same few verses but I
must admit I have never taken this issue seriously. It all started when
he found me playing some gospel music in my office, and one thing lead
to another until I gave him a copy of the Great Controversy (I keep few
copies in the office). In explaining what the GC is all about the
rapture came up, and I must say I was not prepared.
Can anyone out there in the Cyber-land help me with more info on this
subject.
Everybody ought to know who Jesus is!
Jeremiah
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
----------------------------
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:29:03 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Un-Subscribe
Please remove my name from your list. Too many emails cluttering up my computer every morning.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:53:48 +0200
From: "Vice-Rector for Academic Administration" <vradmit@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Un-Subscribe
Please unsubscribe me. Thank you!
Suggestion - can you automatically get a footer attached to all list emails telling how to unsubscribe or subscribe for the list? Most lists have this.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:50:49 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Un-Subscribe
I am not sure why this came to me.
Greetings
Shirley
-----Original Message-----
From: Vice-Rector for Academic Administration <vradmit@hbc.ac.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 08:58
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Un-Subscribe
Please unsubscribe me. Thank you!
Suggestion - can you automatically get a footer attached to all list emails telling how to unsubscribe or subscribe for the list? Most lists have this.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:53:33 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Un-Subscribe
Hi Lionel
I am not sure why this message came to me.
Greetings
Shirley
-----Original Message-----
From: L A Young <layoung@iafrica.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 08:36
Subject: [sa-sda] Un-Subscribe
Please remove my name from your list. Too many emails cluttering up my computer every morning.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:00:57 +0200
From: <tmautla@edgars.co.za>
Subject: Gift
Good morning brothers and sisters or sisters and brothers, we all know that
Children are gifts from God. I have a friend who is in the Adventist Church and
she was raped few months ago and she had a baby.
Here comes my concern, what do I do if I get an unplanned child? Do I accept it
as a gift from God? Do I dedicate the Child to God? Remember I don't know who
the father is (and that child is just going to remind me of the day I got raped)
Keep in mind I am only 18 yrs old and I am still studying (that is just an
example).
So, basically will God understand if I have abortion.
Again thought for the day: - The only value in the past is to take from it
lessons that we can consiously
apply to the future.
- Our emotions should be our servants, not our masters
(bad temper).
He is at the door.
Thabitha
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:34:50 +0200
From: "Vice-Rector for Academic Administration" <vradmit@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Gift
>Good morning brothers and sisters or sisters and brothers, we all know that
>Children are gifts from God. I have a friend who is in the Adventist Church
and
>she was raped few months ago and she had a baby.
>Here comes my concern, what do I do if I get an unplanned child? Do I
accept it
>as a gift from God? Do I dedicate the Child to God? Remember I don't know
who
>the father is (and that child is just going to remind me of the day I got
raped)
> Keep in mind I am only 18 yrs old and I am still studying (that is just an
>example).
>So, basically will God understand if I have abortion.
I have been through all of the above, though I know the father. I kept the
child, love him immensely, even though at times he reminds me of his dad,
which brings back painful memories. I even went through an abortion clinic
(but didn't go through with the procedure). My child was dedicated
publically in church. It is possible to love an unplanned child, provided
you see this as the perfect opportunity to pass God's love and your own on
to someone who needs you totally. God always has a plan for your life -
mine would have been a mess if my child had not come along.
Dawn
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 20
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:44:34 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Un-Subscribe
Greetings Friend,
I am sorry to hear that you are un-subscribing to this list.
If the bulk of emails that you are recieving is the main problem, I have the following two suggestions:
1st option:
You can subscribe to a digest version of this list, in this case you only get one email at the end of the day that combines all emails for that day.
To do this you need to go to www.onelist.com
Login using your email address and password that was sent to you when you subscribed.
Click login button
Under the heading List center tick Digest
Then click on the change button
If you need help with this, send me an email at masabatha@yahoo.com
2nd option:
If you are on the Internet,
I will suggest that you create a special email for this discussion list from some of the web based free E-mail services.
This is very nice service, it allows you to see your emails anywhere , anytime, and it is Free
I have at least 7 email addresses, one for the bus, one for church, for friends etc.
Here are the sites that give free web based email address:
www.yahoo.com - recommended (that's the one I use)
www.hotmail.com - a bit slow
www.rocketmail.com - I don't know much about
www.webmail.co.za - SA version - I don't know much about
If all things fail, to unsubscribe you just send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
I will be attaching this message to all emails
The King is even at the door!
SA-SDA List Administrator:
MJ Ravhengani
>>> "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com> 08/18 2:29 AM >>>
Please remove my name from your list. Too many emails cluttering up my computer every morning.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 21
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:54:15 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Secret rapture
Thanks Thabo,
This is very useful, I am grateful to God for all of you out there!
It won't be long, we'll be going Home!
Jeremiah
>>> "Thabo Nale" <nalet@telkom32.telkom.co.za> 08/18 2:01 AM >>>
Greeting Jerry,
I had your out-cry and please find the attached MS-Word document on the
subject. If you have any problems opening it, please let me know.
I pray that this gets you in time for you discussion and may the Lord
add his blessings also. Remember, win the soul, not the arguement.
Christian regards
Thabo Nale
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 08/17 4:19 PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Greetings friends,
Tomorrow I will be having Bible study with my boss, he is a Baptist, he
wants us to discuss the secret rapture, I have same few verses but I
must admit I have never taken this issue seriously. It all started when
he found me playing some gospel music in my office, and one thing lead
to another until I gave him a copy of the Great Controversy (I keep few
copies in the office). In explaining what the GC is all about the
rapture came up, and I must say I was not prepared.
Can anyone out there in the Cyber-land help me with more info on this
subject.
Everybody ought to know who Jesus is!
Jeremiah
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
----------------------------
ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 22
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:04:41 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Gift
Dawn,
Thanks you for sharing with us such a touching story, It is easy some times for us to theorize about the Christian life and much harder when it comes to practice. Your testimony is really an inspiration to me.
Indeed God is able, He can turn darkness into light.
We need to hear more of this kind of testimonies, we all need to know that God can!
May God continue to bless you and your son.
He will wipe away all tears from our eyes!
Jeremiah
>>> "Vice-Rector for Academic Administration" <vradmit@hbc.ac.za> 08/18 8:34 AM >>>
From: "Vice-Rector for Academic Administration" <vradmit@hbc.ac.za>
>Good morning brothers and sisters or sisters and brothers, we all know that
>Children are gifts from God. I have a friend who is in the Adventist Church
and
>she was raped few months ago and she had a baby.
>Here comes my concern, what do I do if I get an unplanned child? Do I
accept it
>as a gift from God? Do I dedicate the Child to God? Remember I don't know
who
>the father is (and that child is just going to remind me of the day I got
raped)
> Keep in mind I am only 18 yrs old and I am still studying (that is just an
>example).
>So, basically will God understand if I have abortion.
I have been through all of the above, though I know the father. I kept the
child, love him immensely, even though at times he reminds me of his dad,
which brings back painful memories. I even went through an abortion clinic
(but didn't go through with the procedure). My child was dedicated
publically in church. It is possible to love an unplanned child, provided
you see this as the perfect opportunity to pass God's love and your own on
to someone who needs you totally. God always has a plan for your life -
mine would have been a mess if my child had not come along.
Dawn
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