Digest 72, originally sent Fri Oct 29 06:45:14 1999
There are 16 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: SDA and Council of Churches
From: "pitso Tsibolane" <pitsotsibs@xxxxxxx.xxxx
2. Re: SDA and Council of Churches
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
3. RE: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
From: Thembeka Bulana <thembekab@xxxxxx.xxxx
4. Re: WHO AM I
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
5. Re: RE: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
6. Re: SDA and Council of Churches
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
7. Judas' call
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
8. Re: SDA and Council of Churches
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
9. Re: SDA and Council of Churches
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
10. Re: SDA and Council of Churches
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
11. Re: SDA and Council of Churches
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
12. Cape Conference Clips
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
13. Re: SDA and Council of Churches
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
14. Re: SDA and Council of Churches
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
15. Womens Ministry Retreat Program for those in Western Cape
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
16. familiarity breed contempt?
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:25:15 GMT
From: "pitso Tsibolane" <pitsotsibs@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: SDA and Council of Churches
hello saints!
I believe as well that our church has to preserve its purity especially when
it comes to political issues. As a representative of Christ on this planet
we should always maintain neutrality so that we can "win as many as possible
to Christ" who offers spiritual stability to all(despite their
affiliations).
But again i see our church on the other hand descending to a level of being
a "spectactor" when it needs to make Him known the most. Our fear of working
together with other christian groups all in the name of being
"separate/coming out of her" can lead us to be opportunists and ineffective.
Like a worker who never joins others go on strike to protest but is happy to
receive a salary increase after the strike, adventists are ready to receive
the benefits of a "better life for all, affirmative action and
redistribution" which they were too holy to fight for.
To link this with the SACC issue: if ever the SACC has good and socially
constructive ideals why should we then start thinking that for some obscure
reasons that we are being apologetic when we join them? I know our church is
anti-abortion, why can't we support the initiatives of the SACC to make the
Christian voice heard?
Let us not be too heavenly minded such that we end up of no earthly use.
[pitso]
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:09:10 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: SDA and Council of Churches
Dear Alvin,
Thank you for taking this up again - I was hoping you would.
I agree with you, the SACC is to collectively and in a coordinated
manner make a positive contribution to the nation.
What I said earlier on was not my view but that of the church. If you
can notice there is a bit of sacrasm in my responce - sarcastic to the
view of the then church.
You see - during apartheid it was the SACC which addressed the
sinfulness of apartheid to the government. Alan Boesak, Frank Chikane,
Itumeleng Mosala, you name them were in the fore front telling both the
government and the church at large that we should repent and rid
ourselves of this oppressive rule. This was a nations outcry preached
by the SACC on a national level. But they were backed by some political
parties, e.g., ANC, PAC, AZAPO, and others. They in one time were seen
as a political wing since some of the were involved in party political
issues as well. Some of them were once presidents of parties.
Now their role has not changed - they still addressing issued worth
addressing. Issues that affect the nation, issues that are sinful.
Issues like women abuse, rape, emancipation of women, etc. These are as
good to address as was apartheid - even though they are politically
fueled.
I also to agree with you in this specific point and more, our church
was not being primarily arrogant but coward and covered it behind by
being arrogant. Our "then" leadership was mainly white and had to
please their rulers and congregations as well. But when it had to come
to us it was a completely different matter - we had to be submissive to
their coward of cowardice.
But our church is changing, I believe that we are begining to see
things as they are and as they should be. Alvin, there is nothing wrong
with the SACC, per se, but we as the church need to realize that by
mixing with other churches we have deal with individuals as fellow human
beings without the name of their churches lebelled on their foreheads.
Your concern is good - yes we can learn a lot from them only if we are
willing to take them as human beings who want to know Christ and serve
him just like we do. If we try and work with them but seeing their
churches instead of individuals we will lose. Christ looked at Peter as
Peter not as a fishermanm, even though he found him in his vocation.
Matthew was called as Matthew and not as a tax collector. When we get
involved with any person from any conviction let us deal with him as he
is - we both may see Christ as he is with that approach.
That is where I stand.
Lungani
>>> Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za> 10/28/99 09:42AM >>>
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
Hallo sa-sda,
Lungani Mfeka wrote:
> As to our time, our church still maintains the distance between the
> church and politics - especially when the present government is so
> corrupt and sinful. Let alone the thought of being led by self
> confessed atheists. We even believe that the spirit of prophecy
warns
> us against political involvement.
>
I think you are mixing issues here. Are you equating the SACC with the
political leadership of this country? As far as I know the SACC is (as
the
name implies) a council of christian churches, whose objective is to
collectively and in a coordinated manner make a positive contribution
to the
nation.
> "Equivalent body". Our church has been instructed to come out of
> worldly interests - "Come out of it my people" - the Bible says. We
> have been set apart - against all other churches and bodies - we
cannot
> involve ourselves with them. They have to come up to our level if
> theywant our invlovement and it has to be on our terms.
I am sorry I have to use once again the term "arrogance". I hope you
understand that I don't mean to offend any one. I love my (SDA) church
but
it always amazes me that we don't seem to get it, that God and His work
is
not only confined to our denomination. I honestly believe that by
working
together with other christian churches in SPECIFIC areas we will be
able to
make a much bigger contribution to soceity that if we go it alone. This
does
not mean that we have to agree theologically in all areas with others.
Many
people in our church are mistaken and think that this (theological
unity) is
a requirement for cooperation with other churches. We agree to disagree
with
other churches in some theological arera but in those areas where we
have
common ground we should work together. Areas where we can be more
effective
together are e.g.
1. Push for government to legislate tougher gun laws (we all know what
guns
are doing to destroy this nation)
2. Work against abuse of women and children
3. Social justice
4. Poverty alleviation
5. Reconciliation and healing the wounds caused by apartheid
6. Freedom of worship
If we find common ground on these issue with other churches and work
together our "voices" will be louder than if only the 70 000 or so of
us
(SDA) shout.
> Its an interesting question - why do you ask?
>
I believe we have a lot to learn from other christian and by isolating
ourselves we might be missing out on what God might want to share with
us.
Greetings from the Cape.
Alvin.
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:13:35 +0200
From: Thembeka Bulana <thembekab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
Hi Everyone,
I am Thembeka Bulana/Mngqibisa and fortunately, I'm a female. Currently
residing in Cape Town and working here as well. I am a born and bred
Seventh-day-Adventist but lately spiritually born to His service. I am
delighted to be joining this fellowship and hope to be strengthened and
strengthen others for the road ahead. We agree to disagree in some
instances but knowing foremost that there is is only One Truth and it is It
that we all aspire to govern our daily lives.
The Good Lord, Saviour and our Friend guide us always till He comes!!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: sa-sda-owner@onelist.com [mailto:sa-sda-owner@onelist.com]
Sent: 27/10/1999 6:19 PM
To: thembekab@gensec.com
Subject: [sa-sda] Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
Hello,
Welcome to the SA-SDA discussion mailing list.
As a new subscriber we encourage you to send an email to sa-sda@onelist.com
and introduce yourself to the rest of the list members.
Here are a couple of reasons why we started the mailing list:
About a year ago a group of South African SDA's started a web site
(www.masabatha.org) with the purpose of sharing their spiritual experiences.
We see the mailing list as an extension of this ministry.
Our objective is to facilitate discussion among SDA church members in
Southern Africa.
The discussions on this list need not be strictly on Christian issues, they
can be on social, political, economic or personal issues,
since all of these issues do affect us in our Christian journey.
We hope to hear from you soon.
The King is even at the door!
To unsubscribe from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at
www.onelist.com, and select the User Center link from the menu bar
on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription
between digest and normal mode.
You can also unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to
sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
Thanks,
The List Manager
Mashudu Jeremiah Ravhegani
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:21:22 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: WHO AM I
Pumla,
Welcome to the SA-SDA family, I am glad you have joined us.
Jeremiah
>>> Ngamlana Pumla <PumlaNgamlana@deltamotorcorp.co.za> 10/28 6:01 AM >>>
From: Ngamlana Pumla <PumlaNgamlana@deltamotorcorp.co.za>
Greetings to you all
Let me start by thanking you all for welcoming me in this mailing list.
My name is Pumla Ngamlana, I was born and grew up in East London, in the
dusty streets of the place called Mdantsane. After my matric, I moved to
Port Elizabeth where I did my tertiary education and the Lord blessed me
with a wonderful job immediately after my final year of studies. At the
moment, I am working for Delta Motor Corporation.
I believe that the Lord will do wonderful and great things through this
mailing list and I am looking forward to be part of it and hoping that I
will be more uplifted spiritually.
May the good Lord bless you.
Ngamlana Pumla
Ckd Cost Controller
DELTA MOTOR CORPORATION
E-mail: PumlaNgamlana@deltamotorcorp.co.za
Tel.: +27 41 403 2570
Fax.: +27 41 403 2901
Cell no.: 083 5958 326
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:22:08 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
Thembeka,
Welcome, be at home!
Jeremiah
>>> Thembeka Bulana <thembekab@gensec.com> 10/28 8:13 AM >>>
From: Thembeka Bulana <thembekab@gensec.com>
Hi Everyone,
I am Thembeka Bulana/Mngqibisa and fortunately, I'm a female. Currently
residing in Cape Town and working here as well. I am a born and bred
Seventh-day-Adventist but lately spiritually born to His service. I am
delighted to be joining this fellowship and hope to be strengthened and
strengthen others for the road ahead. We agree to disagree in some
instances but knowing foremost that there is is only One Truth and it is It
that we all aspire to govern our daily lives.
The Good Lord, Saviour and our Friend guide us always till He comes!!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: sa-sda-owner@onelist.com [mailto:sa-sda-owner@onelist.com]
Sent: 27/10/1999 6:19 PM
To: thembekab@gensec.com
Subject: [sa-sda] Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
Hello,
Welcome to the SA-SDA discussion mailing list.
As a new subscriber we encourage you to send an email to sa-sda@onelist.com
and introduce yourself to the rest of the list members.
Here are a couple of reasons why we started the mailing list:
About a year ago a group of South African SDA's started a web site
(www.masabatha.org) with the purpose of sharing their spiritual experiences.
We see the mailing list as an extension of this ministry.
Our objective is to facilitate discussion among SDA church members in
Southern Africa.
The discussions on this list need not be strictly on Christian issues, they
can be on social, political, economic or personal issues,
since all of these issues do affect us in our Christian journey.
We hope to hear from you soon.
The King is even at the door!
To unsubscribe from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at
www.onelist.com, and select the User Center link from the menu bar
on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription
between digest and normal mode.
You can also unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to
sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
Thanks,
The List Manager
Mashudu Jeremiah Ravhegani
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:09:49 +0200
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: SDA and Council of Churches
Hallo sa-sda,
Daniel Dlongolo wrote:
> Alvin, you seem to believe that the SA government is intimidated by
> numbers. This is not the case. For an example, the majority of South
> Africans are in favour of the death penalty and are against abortion but
> this does not mean a thing to the government.
>
The issue of numbers was not the basis of my argument. I just brought it up right
at the end. My concern is that I have observed that we Adventists tend to be so
focused on the "new heaven and the new earth" and neglect the issues that affect
people's lives "here and now" (and that is a world-wide phenomenon with
Adventists). In order to justify this we misuse the call to "go out of her my
people". That is a gross misuse of God's word. I think God has placed us here on
this earth not only to preach about "paradise" but to make a difference for the
better in this sinful world. I agree with everybody that this is a very difficult
issue and there are no easy answers and sometimes there are even no answers at
all. We have to prayerfully and with God's help analyse the issues and discover
our role. But let us not think we can adopt neutral stances and stand aloof and
isolate ourselves from things around us.
Somebody said "To be neutral is to support the status quo". That was the problem
of our church during apartheid (in South Africa) and during the Smith-Regime
(Rhodesia/Zimbabwe). We adopted a "passive" position in a situation where masses
of people (which Christ died for) were being abused, exploited, dehumanised,
brutally mistreated and murdered. I don't know how things would have turned out if
we had acted otherwise. But the Bible says "He who knows what is good and does not
do it is guilty of sin".
If our christianity does not have a positive PRACTICAL impact on people around us
and if the non-believers do not see that side of our theology then we really
need revise our theology or pack our bags.
Greetings,
Alvin.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:15:19 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Judas' call
Dear Friends,
I know that all of us are called to labour in the Lord's vineyard. A
the Bible puts it we "did not choose" him but he did "so that we will
bear fruits".
My question is - as Jesus chose the 12, his motive was - it not
because he saw the potential in all of them to be fishers of men? I am
asking this with specific interest in Judas's call. When Christ chose
him was it not for the same purpose as the other 11?
If so, could it be possible that Judas in one was or the other did win
a soul for Christ? I guess this will have a touch of predestination, as
well.
I just want to know him.
Lungani
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:40:00 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: SDA and Council of Churches
Pitso,
Is the SACC against abortion?
Lungani
>>> "pitso Tsibolane" <pitsotsibs@hotmail.com> 10/28/99 01:25PM >>>
From: "pitso Tsibolane" <pitsotsibs@hotmail.com>
hello saints!
I believe as well that our church has to preserve its purity especially
when
it comes to political issues. As a representative of Christ on this
planet
we should always maintain neutrality so that we can "win as many as
possible
to Christ" who offers spiritual stability to all(despite their
affiliations).
But again i see our church on the other hand descending to a level of
being
a "spectactor" when it needs to make Him known the most. Our fear of
working
together with other christian groups all in the name of being
"separate/coming out of her" can lead us to be opportunists and
ineffective.
Like a worker who never joins others go on strike to protest but is
happy to
receive a salary increase after the strike, adventists are ready to
receive
the benefits of a "better life for all, affirmative action and
redistribution" which they were too holy to fight for.
To link this with the SACC issue: if ever the SACC has good and
socially
constructive ideals why should we then start thinking that for some
obscure
reasons that we are being apologetic when we join them? I know our
church is
anti-abortion, why can't we support the initiatives of the SACC to make
the
Christian voice heard?
Let us not be too heavenly minded such that we end up of no earthly
use.
[pitso]
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:35:14 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: SDA and Council of Churches
Dear friends,
(I apologize for writing such long message, just bear with me, there is a point that I am trying make but it is difficult to do it in few lines)
I believe that we can learn a lot of people of other churches. Some will remember the mail that I sent few days ago that emphasizes this point, I believe and agree with what E.G White said, that some members of the Catholic Church are going to be saved into the kingdom. I currently have a boss who is a devoted Baptist, if ever I have ever met a Christian, he is one.
There is a difference between people and systems of religion. This is the reason why the Bible says come out of her MY people. There are God's people who are members of systems (churches) of ERROR.
Having said that, the Bible says do not be equally yoked with unbelievers. And the quick response will be they are not unbelievers, they are also Christians. As I said above I have no problem with people but the systems of error. People do not join the SACC, but church organizations (systems) do. When we join the SACC, we are unequally yoking ourselves with these systems of error. Remember the churches that are members of the SACC are bound by the decisions and rules of the SACC.
Moreover, what do we mean by believers? Believers are people who people in something, that's obvious. What is it that we believe in? We are believers because we believe in God and more so (since there are many who have the same claim), in some belief systems (27 beliefs), and those who do not believe in the same things are unbelievers [of those things that we believe in]. It does not mean we should not befriend them, we should, that's our mission, but we should not be yoked (married) to them.
Many have talked about the positive role that the SACC has played in the apartheid struggle, and I agree. However, I disagreed with their methods, I believe liberation theology is not theology at all or let me say its not Biblical. I didn't and still do not believe that one is justified to kill in order to secure a political liberation. I believe that apartheid was evil, but should we use evil methods to get rid of the evil system? Does the end justify the means? (Few years ago I wrote a 20-page essay challenging Liberation theology)
I hope no one will misunderstand what I am going to say next: I believe that the abolition of apartheid has not aided our mission in any way, in fact, it has produced more sinners, in our churches materialism is now the new theology. Does it mean apartheid was good? No! Apartheid or no apartheid, people need the Lord! If the oppressors had the knowledge of Jesus as they claimed, apartheid wouldn't have existed.
I would rather be saved under apartheid rather than been lost in the new South Africa.
I do not see how joining the SACC will enhance our mission. We have difference agendas. It is not by joining popular organizations than our impact in the community will be felt, but by what we do. As they say actions speaks louder than words.
Our primary mission is not to lobby the government for some legislation that enforces some Christian morality. Our mission is to preach the life-changing gospel of Jesus. There is power, wonderful power in the Blood. The heart is the heart of the problem (thanks to Jongimpi), not socio-economic issues, they are the results of the problem. When there is a revival (change of heart), reformation (change of ways) will follow; there is no true reformation with a revival.
I hate abortion, I think it is evil and cold blooded murder, however, efforts of Christians to enforce the anti-abortion laws are laughable. Abortion is not a problem; it is the results of the problem. If they do not abort, they will abuse or do some devilish thing. People need the Lord. And somehow, the SACC has forgotten this. There are so busy addressing the temporal needs of the people and forgetting that there is a God who says, "Come unto me all who are tired and*" They are earthly minded and don't care about heaven. Few years ago I remember listening to Bishop Tutu on national Television saying that he does not believe in heaven and the new earth. I was shocked, may be I was not supposed to be surprised.
We, as church, have failed and continue to fail to fulfill the mission that God as called us to do. All we need is to follow what God says. If we have followed what God said we would be leaders not followers. We have many problems, but joining the SACC will not solve any of our problems, in the contrary it will create more problems. The SACC does not know our mission and they can't help us in fulfilling it. Their agenda is temporal whilst ours is eternal, yet we still have temporal responsibilities: ADRA, and ACS in the local churches fulfill this important function. We are people who are heavenly minded with earthly responsibilities, we are not earthly minded with heavenly possibilities.
The Bible prophecy warns us about the image of the beast, and as Adventist we know that the protestant churches have already taken their positions in fulfilling this prophecy. About two months ago the Anglican Church came up with the recommendation that the Pope should be the head off all the churches. This is not one of those Adventist juice rumors, it was in ANN, I guess most of you have seen it.
This is not the time for us to be compromising in order to get some acceptance, we are to arise, for this is the time to stand for the truth. But we are fast asleep. It distresses me to see how we are so much interested in everything else except preaching Christ and Him Crucified, our sole reason (I believe) for existence. When we talk about Cyber evangelism, there is deafening silence. The rocks will definitely take our place.
Preach the word brethren. Today take some few minutes to tell someone that there is a God who cares, and that He is coming soon!
I have been to the mountaintop, and I have seen the Promised Land. Nothing in this world excites me any more.
I just want to tell somebody the King is at the door!
I am going home!
Yes, I am heavenly minded and I pray that if I be of any earthly good, it must be when I lead others to know Him better.
Maranatha! Maranatha!
Jeremiah
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:48:47 +0200
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
Subject: Re: SDA and Council of Churches
Hie Jerry,
Mashudu Ravhengani wrote:
>
> Having said that, the Bible says do not be equally yoked with unbelievers. And the quick response will be they are not unbelievers, they are also Christians. As I said above I have no problem with people but the systems of error. People do not join the SACC, but church organizations (systems) do. When we join the SACC, we are unequally yoking ourselves with these systems of error. Remember the churches that are members of the SACC are bound by the decisions and rules of the SACC.
I both agree and disagree with you on this issue. Maybe we should check out the rules and constitution of the SACC and see if they really expect every member to follow these rules even if they contradict the member's belief. In Germany the SDA Church is a member (with observer status) of the ACK (equivalent to SACC) and the ACK-constitution stipulates clearly that NO MEMBER is bound to follow any decision or rule which contradicts it's beliefs. By the way not all sunday-keeping churches are theologically united. Sometimes we think that there are only differences between Adventists and the other churches. That's not accurate because I know there are big theological differences on the issue of baptism between the
Baptists and other churches. A comment from this week's (23-29 Oct.) SS-Lesson "In relating to the world Christians must guard against the dangers of isolation and identification. If we isolate and insulate ourselves from the world, we have the message but no audience. If we identify so completely with the world that we lose our uniqueness, we have an audience but no message". One can't sy it better. I am not proposing and allout political activism for the adventist church. I am worried about a tendency to isolate ourselves on issues which affect our soceity. We are in this world i.e. besides being an Adventist I am a citizen of a nation an things which affect soceity affect me too.
As I have observed we Adventists have a hard time trying to find our role (besides preaching the word) in soceity. When soceity is in a crisis we are famous for our silence e.g.
- where were we during the Hitler regime in Germany? This issue has still not being resolved today and it's still being debated - 50 year later.
- where were we during the civil rights days led by Martin Luther King in the 60's in the USA?
-where were we in Rwanda?
> Many have talked about the positive role that the SACC has played in the apartheid struggle, and I agree. However, I disagreed with their methods, I believe liberation theology is not theology at all or let me say its not Biblical. I didn't and still do not believe that one is justified to kill in order to secure a political liberation.
That is true. I am also against violence to achieve political goals. But I there are a lot of peaceful methods we can use to influence soceity but we don't or only rarely use them.
> I do not see how joining the SACC will enhance our mission. We have difference agendas. It is not by joining popular organizations than our impact in the community will be felt, but by what we do
And I hope we are really doing something!! How many of our churches doing something practical or have programs that try to help people around us lead better lives? e.g.
- feeding the beggars on our streets
- teaching skills to the jobless
- offering shelter to street kids
- telephone hot-line for abused children and women
- lobbying for gun control etc.
Maybe some on this mailing-list who are doing such and similar activities on their churches can share that with us.
Just a positive example - the Adventist Student Christian Movement at the University of Cape Town begun a "School Project" in July this year. They identified a nearby school which is suffering from shortage of qualified teachers. The kids there come from undepriveledged homes. The Adventist UCT students volunteered this past semester to go during their spare time (for no pay) and teach some subjects in that school. The school administration and the kids were so impressed and moved and people's lives were touched.
Greetings,
Alvin.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:34:39 +0200
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: SDA and Council of Churches
Lungani,
Without sidetracking the discussion, I thought the invitation of "come
just as you are" means Peter should come as Peter the fisherman and
Matthew as Matthew the tax collector. I would think that when Christ
first saw them he saw Peter the fisherman and Matthew the tax
collector, but after a "work out " with them he saw Peter and Matthew
the apostles. In other words, when Christ first looks at us he sees what
we can become "but untill we have become we are".
"Watch and pray"
Andrew
>>> "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> 10/28/99 12:09PM >>>
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Dear Alvin,
Thank you for taking this up again - I was hoping you would.
I agree with you, the SACC is to collectively and in a coordinated
manner make a positive contribution to the nation.
What I said earlier on was not my view but that of the church. If you
can notice there is a bit of sacrasm in my responce - sarcastic to
the
view of the then church.
You see - during apartheid it was the SACC which addressed the
sinfulness of apartheid to the government. Alan Boesak, Frank
Chikane,
Itumeleng Mosala, you name them were in the fore front telling both
the
government and the church at large that we should repent and rid
ourselves of this oppressive rule. This was a nations outcry preached
by the SACC on a national level. But they were backed by some
political
parties, e.g., ANC, PAC, AZAPO, and others. They in one time were
seen
as a political wing since some of the were involved in party political
issues as well. Some of them were once presidents of parties.
Now their role has not changed - they still addressing issued worth
addressing. Issues that affect the nation, issues that are sinful.
Issues like women abuse, rape, emancipation of women, etc. These are
as
good to address as was apartheid - even though they are politically
fueled.
I also to agree with you in this specific point and more, our church
was not being primarily arrogant but coward and covered it behind by
being arrogant. Our "then" leadership was mainly white and had to
please their rulers and congregations as well. But when it had to
come
to us it was a completely different matter - we had to be submissive
to
their coward of cowardice.
But our church is changing, I believe that we are begining to see
things as they are and as they should be. Alvin, there is nothing
wrong
with the SACC, per se, but we as the church need to realize that by
mixing with other churches we have deal with individuals as fellow
human
beings without the name of their churches lebelled on their foreheads.
Your concern is good - yes we can learn a lot from them only if we are
willing to take them as human beings who want to know Christ and serve
him just like we do. If we try and work with them but seeing their
churches instead of individuals we will lose. Christ looked at Peter
as
Peter not as a fishermanm, even though he found him in his vocation.
Matthew was called as Matthew and not as a tax collector. When we get
involved with any person from any conviction let us deal with him as
he
is - we both may see Christ as he is with that approach.
That is where I stand.
Lungani
>>> Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za> 10/28/99 09:42AM >>>
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
Hallo sa-sda,
Lungani Mfeka wrote:
> As to our time, our church still maintains the distance between the
> church and politics - especially when the present government is so
> corrupt and sinful. Let alone the thought of being led by self
> confessed atheists. We even believe that the spirit of prophecy
warns
> us against political involvement.
>
I think you are mixing issues here. Are you equating the SACC with the
political leadership of this country? As far as I know the SACC is (as
the
name implies) a council of christian churches, whose objective is to
collectively and in a coordinated manner make a positive contribution
to the
nation.
> "Equivalent body". Our church has been instructed to come out of
> worldly interests - "Come out of it my people" - the Bible says. We
> have been set apart - against all other churches and bodies - we
cannot
> involve ourselves with them. They have to come up to our level if
> theywant our invlovement and it has to be on our terms.
I am sorry I have to use once again the term "arrogance". I hope you
understand that I don't mean to offend any one. I love my (SDA) church
but
it always amazes me that we don't seem to get it, that God and His
work
is
not only confined to our denomination. I honestly believe that by
working
together with other christian churches in SPECIFIC areas we will be
able to
make a much bigger contribution to soceity that if we go it alone.
This
does
not mean that we have to agree theologically in all areas with others.
Many
people in our church are mistaken and think that this (theological
unity) is
a requirement for cooperation with other churches. We agree to
disagree
with
other churches in some theological arera but in those areas where we
have
common ground we should work together. Areas where we can be more
effective
together are e.g.
1. Push for government to legislate tougher gun laws (we all know what
guns
are doing to destroy this nation)
2. Work against abuse of women and children
3. Social justice
4. Poverty alleviation
5. Reconciliation and healing the wounds caused by apartheid
6. Freedom of worship
If we find common ground on these issue with other churches and work
together our "voices" will be louder than if only the 70 000 or so of
us
(SDA) shout.
> Its an interesting question - why do you ask?
>
I believe we have a lot to learn from other christian and by isolating
ourselves we might be missing out on what God might want to share with
us.
Greetings from the Cape.
Alvin.
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:46:07 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Cape Conference Clips
PRAYER REQUEST
CHILDREN'S ITEMS NEEDED
NET NEW YORK
PRAYER REQUEST (Dr David Birkenstock)
The prognosis for my brother Josef does not sound good, it seems that the
cancer is more wide spread that we originally believed. We hope to see him
and the family when we visit South Africa towards the end of November.
Please remember the family in your prayers.
CHILDREN'S ITEMS NEEDED (Pastor Alan Parker) [For those in the Helderberg Vicinity]
The Helderberg Youth are planning to give children's toys, clothing, toiletries, etc. to one of the local children's homes on November 1 (Children's Day) and would appreciate your donations toward this good cause. Any contributions can be
sent to Deidre Wareley at the Gymnasium. Thank you for your support.
NET NEW YORK (Betty Cooney)
AROUND THE WORLD, people participating in the NET NY '99 meetings are
asking Bible questions, and looking to someone to help them find answers. We are
grateful that the Adventist Association for Online Evangelism team (AAOE),
which now includes close to 200 volunteer online Bible counselors, is
assisting with these questions. Their valuable service is an adjunct for
pastors and lay persons conducting the series, freeing them to deal with
the many aspects of hosting their meetings. Many questioners are seekers, their
interest aroused by Millennium of Prophecy presentations; others are
Adventists puzzled about Bible issues for which they feel they have not had
answers. Sparked by the popular Question and Answer segment conducted
nightly by Pastor Doug and Karen Batchelor, some 2,500 questions have
poured in as of this writing, a majority sending multiple questions.
Pastors, Bible workers and others well versed in the Bible are giving many
hours and much prayerful attention and energy to responding. Questions are
coming in through the website (www.netny99.org), via a form on the home
page are routed by AAOE leaders coordinating this feature to the Bible
counselors. The questions become available immediately to the NET NY '99
question database, to draw from for the broadcasts. Online counselors are
coordinated by Pastor Arthur Gibbs of North Carolina, and AAOE member
Daniel Davis of Nashville TN. Darryl Hosford is AAOE president.
ANTIGUA--At one of the two sites on the island, thery are having a nightly
attendance of about 700 people. A hurricane alert threatened the meetings
for two nights, but the pastor reports gratefully that their prayers were
answered and they were able to continue each evening.
BOTSWANA--A university student watching Millennium of Prophecy on campus
says, "I am so impressed with the program that I want to invite all my
classmates for the next program."
ECUADOR--The meetings will not be rebroadcast there until later in the
year, but one site is downlinking the live broadcasts by picking up the
PanamSat 5 signal which is the link for Europe. With God's blessing, more
than 40 people are attending.
TANZANIA has more than 20 sites.
SOUTH PACIFIC DIVISION--SIDNEY CHINESE CHURCH Pastor Isaac Foo is excited that there is a Mandarin translation for NET NY '99. FIJI has 3 sites, one
of them starting the program at 5:00 p.m. to attract people in Suva on their
way home from work. About 70 non-Adventists are attending. Half of the 200
persons attending at the Newtown Church site are visitors. In AMERICAN
SAMOA, a cable tv network is recording the Millennium of Prophecy Seminar
for use on their network. More than 210 sites are hosting the series in SPD,
representing an increase over NET '98. SOLOMON ISLANDS--When the meetings
started, 100 attended; this quickly grew to 500, and now 1,000 are
attending.
PAPUA, NEW GUINEA--Four sites are located in the nation's capital plus
other sites in the provinces. In the MENDI District, nearly 2000 are
participating nightly. WEWAK, East Sepike Province has more than 9,000
attending. In PORT MORESBY, more than 70- to 80,000 are watching at 4
different sites. Since the downlink equipment was not working at the John
Guise Stadium site when they came on board opening night, local leaders
asked a commercial TV channel to record the program for them. Ray Coombe,
Satellite Coordinator for the Division, writes that "Channel 8 agreed to do
that and are piping it straight into their TV/cable network for their
viewers as well. This would never have happened if their equipment had been
working. They are also sharing the recording with the Pacific Adventist
University, where another approximately 5,000 gather." A number of other
sites in this city of 200,000 are also meeting, many of them open-air
venues such as fields and stadiums. In KIMBE town, where few Adventists live, the
overwhelming response came from individuals who saw the huge, 20-foot
screen being put up. "That was enough invitation for them to come," writes Charles
Litau.
AUCKLAND, NEW ZEALAND--"We have relatives and friends who had not
understood the Bible enough to be interested in studying it. Now we find
that a lot of them are wanting so desperately to know more about the
stories of the Bible. How God is working! How wonderful it feels to see them coming
in, full of joy to be with God each day."--Frances & Poko Kaiaruna
TRINIDAD--A church in the rural district of Rio Claro is hosting the series
live, with a membership of 250. 3 other sites on the island also
participate, on a 2-day delay basis, using video tapes.
LUSAKA, ZAMBIA--An average of 300 attend at the Chelstone site, one third
of whom are visitors.
GUAM has locations at Agana Heights Church, Agat Church, Guam SDA Clinic in
Tamuning and Northern SDA Church in Dededo. They began their meetings a
week later than the live broadcasts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shirley Allen
Cape Conference
Director of Youth, Children's Ministries, Sabbath School, Personal Ministries and Women's Ministries
PO Box 279
Somerset Wes
7129
Telephone: 021 852 1140
"Remember your Creator during your youth: when all possibilities lie open before you and you can offer all your strength intact for his service. "
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:15:24 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: SDA and Council of Churches
Andrew,
It is interesting that your name is that of one of the best disciples
Christ had. He was quite and loving - willing to deal with everyone -
even the most insignificant fo all, person. Remember the boy with
fishes and a few loaves of bread - Andrew was the person to spot the
lad.
Back to your interesting contribution. Yes, when Christ saw me he saw
me for what I will become and still addressed my present state of being.
Good enough, Christ saw them not only for what they were when he met
them but also what they were long before they met him.
When he dealt with them he looked at them wholistically - he did not
only pick up what he could use in them but also wanted to make them what
he wanted them to be - there you are right. Strange enough - even loved
those who seemed to remain unrepentant to his call.
But we are human (sinful - in this case) - we only deal with what we
see and have access to. We mostly are affected by what we have heard
of the person before and what we discover of the person as we get closer
to him. Yes, with most of us familiarity does breed contempt. The more
exposure we have on individuals we tend to dash away from them. We seem
not to have the same view seeing people better of than they were when we
depart from each other. Let alone if we know that we do not have a lot
in common with them and endure a lot of frictions in our preferences -
whatever they may be.
Will the Son of Man find faith?
Lungani
Lungani
>>> "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za> 10/29/99 08:34AM >>>
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Lungani,
Without sidetracking the discussion, I thought the invitation of "come
just as you are" means Peter should come as Peter the fisherman and
Matthew as Matthew the tax collector. I would think that when Christ
first saw them he saw Peter the fisherman and Matthew the tax
collector, but after a "work out " with them he saw Peter and Matthew
the apostles. In other words, when Christ first looks at us he sees
what
we can become "but untill we have become we are".
"Watch and pray"
Andrew
>>> "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> 10/28/99 12:09PM >>>
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Dear Alvin,
Thank you for taking this up again - I was hoping you would.
I agree with you, the SACC is to collectively and in a coordinated
manner make a positive contribution to the nation.
What I said earlier on was not my view but that of the church. If you
can notice there is a bit of sacrasm in my responce - sarcastic to
the
view of the then church.
You see - during apartheid it was the SACC which addressed the
sinfulness of apartheid to the government. Alan Boesak, Frank
Chikane,
Itumeleng Mosala, you name them were in the fore front telling both
the
government and the church at large that we should repent and rid
ourselves of this oppressive rule. This was a nations outcry preached
by the SACC on a national level. But they were backed by some
political
parties, e.g., ANC, PAC, AZAPO, and others. They in one time were
seen
as a political wing since some of the were involved in party political
issues as well. Some of them were once presidents of parties.
Now their role has not changed - they still addressing issued worth
addressing. Issues that affect the nation, issues that are sinful.
Issues like women abuse, rape, emancipation of women, etc. These are
as
good to address as was apartheid - even though they are politically
fueled.
I also to agree with you in this specific point and more, our church
was not being primarily arrogant but coward and covered it behind by
being arrogant. Our "then" leadership was mainly white and had to
please their rulers and congregations as well. But when it had to
come
to us it was a completely different matter - we had to be submissive
to
their coward of cowardice.
But our church is changing, I believe that we are begining to see
things as they are and as they should be. Alvin, there is nothing
wrong
with the SACC, per se, but we as the church need to realize that by
mixing with other churches we have deal with individuals as fellow
human
beings without the name of their churches lebelled on their foreheads.
Your concern is good - yes we can learn a lot from them only if we are
willing to take them as human beings who want to know Christ and serve
him just like we do. If we try and work with them but seeing their
churches instead of individuals we will lose. Christ looked at Peter
as
Peter not as a fishermanm, even though he found him in his vocation.
Matthew was called as Matthew and not as a tax collector. When we get
involved with any person from any conviction let us deal with him as
he
is - we both may see Christ as he is with that approach.
That is where I stand.
Lungani
>>> Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za> 10/28/99 09:42AM >>>
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
Hallo sa-sda,
Lungani Mfeka wrote:
> As to our time, our church still maintains the distance between the
> church and politics - especially when the present government is so
> corrupt and sinful. Let alone the thought of being led by self
> confessed atheists. We even believe that the spirit of prophecy
warns
> us against political involvement.
>
I think you are mixing issues here. Are you equating the SACC with the
political leadership of this country? As far as I know the SACC is (as
the
name implies) a council of christian churches, whose objective is to
collectively and in a coordinated manner make a positive contribution
to the
nation.
> "Equivalent body". Our church has been instructed to come out of
> worldly interests - "Come out of it my people" - the Bible says. We
> have been set apart - against all other churches and bodies - we
cannot
> involve ourselves with them. They have to come up to our level if
> theywant our invlovement and it has to be on our terms.
I am sorry I have to use once again the term "arrogance". I hope you
understand that I don't mean to offend any one. I love my (SDA) church
but
it always amazes me that we don't seem to get it, that God and His
work
is
not only confined to our denomination. I honestly believe that by
working
together with other christian churches in SPECIFIC areas we will be
able to
make a much bigger contribution to soceity that if we go it alone.
This
does
not mean that we have to agree theologically in all areas with others.
Many
people in our church are mistaken and think that this (theological
unity) is
a requirement for cooperation with other churches. We agree to
disagree
with
other churches in some theological arera but in those areas where we
have
common ground we should work together. Areas where we can be more
effective
together are e.g.
1. Push for government to legislate tougher gun laws (we all know what
guns
are doing to destroy this nation)
2. Work against abuse of women and children
3. Social justice
4. Poverty alleviation
5. Reconciliation and healing the wounds caused by apartheid
6. Freedom of worship
If we find common ground on these issue with other churches and work
together our "voices" will be louder than if only the 70 000 or so of
us
(SDA) shout.
> Its an interesting question - why do you ask?
>
I believe we have a lot to learn from other christian and by isolating
ourselves we might be missing out on what God might want to share with
us.
Greetings from the Cape.
Alvin.
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 03:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SDA and Council of Churches
Dear friends,
Alvin wrote:
> And I hope we are really doing something!! How many of our churches
> doing something practical or have programs that try to help people
> around us lead better lives? e.g.
> - feeding the beggars on our streets
> - teaching skills to the jobless
> - offering shelter to street kids
> - telephone hot-line for abused children and women
I don't see how joining the SACC or having an observer status will
help us in accomplishing the above. By the way, it is possible that
the SDA church has an observer status at the SACC, this is a standard
practice all over the world. I was arguing against membership not
observer status.
Here is another issue, This past week in my SS class, there was a
brother who kept on saying that Adventists do not have love, we need
to learn to love each other and so on. I am actually tired of such
talk, that's how Adventists talk all the time. My response was that
we who know what to do, let's stop talking and just do it, that's the
only way that the rest of the church will learn. Adventists
(including myself) talk too much and do very little. Let's go out
there and make a difference in somebody's life. You have never
experience the joy of Christianity until you tough somebody life, I
believe that there are many out there who can testify to this. If
things are not going well in your life, go out and do God's service
and you will see what God will do for you. When we take care of God's
business (Alvin's list above), He in turn takes care of our business.
This is a secret of Christianity.
Remember to tell somebody that
The King is at the door! (Do you really believe it?)
Jeremiah
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:43:15 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Womens Ministry Retreat Program for those in Western Cape
ADVENTIST WOMENS MINISTRIES RETREAT (Nooiensfontein Rd, Kuils River, off of Voortrekker Rd)
All Welcome!
WESTERN CAPE COLLEGE OF EDUCATION
29 31 OCTOBER 1999
THEME: EXPERIENCE THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS FAMILY
FRIDAY 29 OCTOBER 1999
18:45 19:00
Song Service
19:00 19:30
Vespers A Family that sings together
Wareleys
19:30 19:45
Welcome
19:45 20:30
Opening Service "Mary Magdalene"
Ardis Stenbakken
20:30 21:00
Ice Breakers
SABBATH 30 OCTOBER 1999
07:45 08:00
Song Service
08:00 08:45
Devotional "Knowing and Not Knowing"
Ivy Petersen
08:45 09:00
Song Service
09:00 09:45
Sabbath School Sketch "A Picture of God"
Stellenbosch
09:45 10:30
AWM World Trail
Ardis & Shirley Allen
10:30 10:45
BREAK
10:45 11:00
Song Service
11:00 11:15
Welcome Ceremony
11:15 12:30
Service : "The Stuff of Fairy Tales"
Ardis Stenbakken
12:30 14:00
LUNCH
14:15 15:00
"The Leadership of Jesus"
Ardis with AWM Leaders
14:15 14:45
Experience the Fellowship
14:45 15:00
Song Service
15:00 16:00
AWMACT IMPACT
5 Minute Taskforce Tales
16:00 17:30
SEMINARS
17:30 18:30
Fellowship with Refreshments
18:30 19:00
Praise & Testimony
19:00 19:30
Vespers
Oscar Mngqibisa
19:30 20:15
Slide & Music Show
Lance von Hφrsten
SUNDAY 31 OCTOBER 1999
08:00 18:45
Devotional
Gladys Xhamela
09:00 10:30
SEMINARS
10:30 11:00
Break
11:00 11:15
Song Service
11:15 12:15
Closing Service "I have a dream"
Ardis Stenbakken
12:15 13:00
Dedication & Farewell
SEMINARS
SABBATH 29 OCTOBER 1999 16:00 17:30
1.. Women and Evangelism [ Ardis Stenbakken]
2.. Young Adventist Womens Ministries [Gladys Xhamela]
3.. Happiness for Husbands and wives [Oscar Mngqibisa]
4.. Lets Talk about the end-time [Louis Petersen]
5.. Communicating across cultures [Janice Watson]
6.. Teaching children about Grace [Shirley Allen]
7.. Doing premarital counselling [Jerry Joubert]
8.. Teaching values to children [Penny Webster]
9.. Making Jesus the Cornerstone of grief recovery [Mary Fondling]
10.. Workshop on AIDS [Graham Pippin]
11.. Christian Assertiveness in everyday matters [Ivy Petersen]
SUNDAY 30 OCTOBER 1999 : 09:00 10:30
1.. The art of Listening [Ardis Stenbakken]
2.. Finding God in Nature [Andrι Joubert]
3.. How to manage stress [Mary Fondling]
4.. My Cancer experience : how to cope [Lorna Thorne]
5.. How to make communion bread (small fee) [Martha Bennett]
6.. Health Screening [Benita Felaar]
7.. Writing a love letter in Beads (small fee) [Connie Mqayisa]
8.. Decorating Food (Fruit & Veg R3 fee 15 persons) [Rosetta Miller]
9.. Wedding Cake Souvenirs (R15 fee, 15 persons) [Carol Langenhoven]
10.. Young Adventist Womens Ministries (continues) [Gladys Xhamela]
Shirley Allen
Cape Conference
Director of Youth, Children's Ministries, Sabbath School, Personal Ministries and Women's Ministries
PO Box 279
Somerset Wes
7129
Telephone: 021 852 1140
"Remember your Creator during your youth: when all possibilities lie open before you and you can offer all your strength intact for his service. "
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Message: 16
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 03:24:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Subject: familiarity breed contempt?
Dear friends,
Lungani wrote:
Yes, with most of us familiarity does breed contempt. The
> more
> exposure we have on individuals we tend to dash away from them. We
> seem
> not to have the same view seeing people better of than they were
> when we
> depart from each other. Let alone if we know that we do not have a
> lot
> in common with them and endure a lot of frictions in our
> preferences -
> whatever they may be.
There was a question in our SS class last week, Why do people "love
Jesus" more than their fellow man? Is it because He will never step
on our toes? Is just easier to love a theoretical person than a real
person? What if Jesus was alive today, were we going to love Him?
What do you think?
Even so, come Lord Jesus!
Jeremiah
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