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There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Sponsorship?
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
2. Re: RE: Welcome
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
3. Fwd: Wearing of Jewellery!
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
4. Re: RE: Welcome
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
5. Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
6. RE: RE: Welcome
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@xxx.xx.xxx
7. RE: RE: Welcome
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@xxx.xx.xxx
8. RE: Introduction of myself...
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@xxx.xx.xxx
9. Re: RE: RE: Welcome
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 07:02:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Sponsorship?
Lungani,
You wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> You mentioned that one should be able to pay second tithe - is
> second tithing a biblical instruction or an option to well
> structured offering?
Thank you for your respond, but I also think that you missed my
point, my emphasis was not on returning second tithe as much as is on
supporting the church programs so that we would not need to go to
'shady' companies to get funds.
However, since you brought up this issue let's look into it. Before I
continue let me say that there are two subjects under the theme of
stewardship which Adventists always like to debate. Second tithe is
one of them and the other is whether people should return tithe from
base or net salary. The problem I have with two topics is that people
tend to be subjective in their discussions to the point were we lose
all objectivity. Having said all of that let me state my stand on
this subject.
I believe that we should return first and second tithe. I believe
that if we were all faithful in return 1st and 2nd tithe we would
have taken the gospel the to the ends of the earth. Today in the
Adventist church World wide only 33% return their first tithe and the
stats for 2nd tithe are not available. What if more people were
faithful? I would like to ask the church administrators who are in
this list, 'what other things will you be able to do if only 20% of
the members return the second tithe?
You asked a question: 'Is 2nd tithe a Biblical instruction?' My
answer is: Yes it is. Duet 14:28,29: "At the end of every three
years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in
your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance
of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live
in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD
your God may bless you in all the work of your hands." NIV
You need to realize that this is a different tithe from the first
tithe that is used to take of the levites (pastors). To make this
even more clearer lets go to the Spirit of Prophecy, as Adventists we
all believe that God called E.G White to be a prophet in these last
days. Let's hear what she says about the above verse:
"To promote the assembling of the people for religious service, as
well as to provide for the poor, a second tithe of all the increase
was required. Concerning the first tithe, the Lord had declared, "I
have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel." Numbers
18:21. But in regard to the second He commanded, "Thou shalt eat
before the Lord thy God, in the place which He shall choose to place
His name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil,
and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest
learn to fear the Lord thy God always." Deuteronomy 14:23, 29;
16:11-14. This tithe, or its equivalent in money, they were for two
years to bring to the place where the sanctuary was established.
After presenting a thank offering to God, and a specified portion to
the priest, the offerers were to use the remainder for a religious
feast, in which the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the
widow should participate. Thus provision was made for the thank
offerings and feasts at the yearly festivals, and the people were
drawn to the society of the priests and Levites, that they might
receive instruction and encouragement in the service of God.
Every third year, however, this second tithe was to be used at home,
in entertaining the Levite and the poor, as Moses said, "That they
may eat within thy gates, and be filled." Deuteronomy 26:12. This
tithe would provide a fund for the uses of charity and hospitality."
Patriarchs and Prophets page 530 (there is an online version of P&P
at www.masabatha.org)
I will continue to list several statements on this subject, before I
do that let me give credit to Pastor NJ Ramugumo for the great
research that he did on this subject. During the time when he was a
stewardship director at the TOC he was doing some research with the
Jewish center at Wits on how this system worked. So if you need more
information on this subject please contact him, he also has lots of
materials on this subject. Now lets continue with some quotations
from SOP.
"The consecration to God of a tithe of all increase, whether of the
orchard and harvest field, the flocks and herds, or the labor of
brain or hand, the devotion of a second tithe for the relief of the
poor and other benevolent uses, tended to keep fresh before the
people the truth of God's ownership of all, and of their opportunity
to be channels of His blessings. It was a training adapted to kill
out all narrowing selfishness, and to cultivate breadth and nobility
of character. " Education, page 44, paragraph 2
"The Lord desires the churches in every place to take hold more
diligently of the church school work, giving liberally to sustain the
teachers. The question has been asked, "Could not the second tithe be
used for the support of the church school work?' It could be used for
no better purpose" 7MR 138
There are many more statements from EGW on this subject; you can
search for yourself the EGW database (there is a link to the database
at www.masabatha.org)
I would like to go back to the point that I was trying to make in my
previous mail. Ps 24 says that the earth is the Lord's and everything
that is in it, the world, and all who live in it. We don't own
anything; we do not even own ourselves. We belong to God by creation
and again by redemption. We somehow talk about returning tithes as if
someone is trying to use some scheme (second tithe) to take away OUR
money. Is he the LORD of my life, if he is, I must just obey.
Moreover, what I have found out the hard way that the more I try to
keep my money away from the Lord the more holes appear in my pocket,
the car breaks down, the roof licks, the bills go high etc.
The more I give to the Lord, the more blessing I get, unexpected
bonuses, my family stays healthy and happy, the small salary somehow
is able pay all the bills etc.
Little becomes much when it is placed in the hands of the master. So
if you can't pay all your bills instead of reducing your offerings
double them and see what the Lord will do. We need to live by faith
not by sight. You can read Mal chapter 3 to find out about this
promise, I guess it has been read so much that it has lost meaning to
many of us.
Let the word go out! If you need a good interest on your finances
place them in God's bank. The interest is rate is not 8%, but it is
some complicated exponential figure. Try him, test him and you will
understand what I mean.
According to EG White in P&P the Jews used to return about 25%
percent of there funds to the Lord, and one will think that this will
make them poor, yet she further says that in the contrary it used to
make them even more prosperous. May be that's why they are still
prosperous today.
> I don't think that this is something to be dogmatized - it is an
> idea that can be either accepted or modified according to ones
> pocket. God blesses those who give with their whole hearts and not
> sacrificially.
Yes, I do agree, we shouldn't be dogmatic on this subject, for it is
a matter of personal relationship with our Lord. If I need 1% of
blessing I will return 1% and if I need more blessing I will invest
more into the Lord's account. Today we have Christians who have a lot
of money and yet very unhappy (just like the rich young ruler, RYR),
for money can't buy happiness, True happiness and peace of mind is
only found in the Lord. Giving to the Lord helps us to detach
ourselves from this world, so that when the time to live this world
comes nothing will hold us back, we won't be like Lot's wife.
May the Lord help us all!
The King is even at the door!
Jeremiah
--- Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> wrote:> Jerry,
>
> From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
>
> ** Proprietary **
> ** Reply Requested When Convenient **
>
> You mentioned that one should be able to pay second tithe - is
> second tithing a biblical instruction or an option to well
> structured offering?
>
> I don't think that this is something to be dogmatized - it is an
> idea that can be either accepted or modified according to ones
> pocket. God blesses those who give with their whole hearts and not
> sacrificially.
>
> I believe He is at the door.
>
> Lungani
>
> >>> Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com> 08/13 1:36 PM >>>
> From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
> Dawn,
>
> I disagree with you on the point of accepting donations from
> 'shady'
> companies, for as much as Nkosazana Zuma didn't what the cigarettes
> companies to sponsor sporting events I do not think that we should
> also accept such funds. When SAB donates funds to the church it is
> not because they love the idea of soul wining or the promotion of
> Christian ideals, No! on the contrary they are against those
> ideals.
> For SAB/cigarettes companies to sponsor any events their main aim
> is
> promoting their product. Which one is the organization that is
> fighting to reduce customers of the SAB/Cigarettes companies? The
> church! These companies know exactly what they are doing. They
> spent
> millions on ads, and they are always fighting among themselves to
> sponsor prominent events in order to increase their sales. If I
> were
> the marketing manager for one of these companies I was just going
> to
> sponsor churches, for here I would be fighting the enemy head-on.
> It
> is very difficult to fight the one who is your main sponsor.
> There is a statement from SOP on this topic but I just couldn't
> find
> it last night, could someone help me with it.
>
> Having said that I must say that I fully agree with the rest of
> your
> presentation, our focus indeed needs to be on evangelism and we
> must
> not waste time on petty issues. And you were right on target when
> you
> stated that the reason why we even start to think about getting
> sponsor from the 'shady' companies; is because of the
> unfaithfulness
> of the members. This is the issue that I would like us to focus on,
> for this is the root of the problem. If the tree that is in our
> yard
> is producing bad fruits, it does not help this tree to go out and
> buy
> fruits from some 'shady' trees. We need to address the question why
> is the tree in our yard producing bad fruits.
>
> Why are the people not supporting the church with their tithes and
> offerings? Is it because they do not know about tithes and
> offerings?
> Is it because they do not trust the church officials? Is because we
> do not preach the stewardship sermons as often as we should? I
> think
> the answer lies somewhere else. It is because we do not have the
> relationship with our Lord. So it does not matter how much we can
> try
> to make the people guilty with those regular once a year
> stewardship
> sermons, it never works. Sometimes we try to appeal to their sense
> of
> pity and even that does not help.
> And thatĘs because we do not have the relationship with Jesus, we
> do
> have a relationship with another god or goddess called materialism.
> Most of our stewardship sermons address the fruits and not the root
> of the problem, and that's why even our solutions are temporal.
> Yes,
> we can paint apples with the peach colour and from a distance they
> might look like peaches, yet they remain apples.
> Bill Graham says that the last thing that God converts in a man is
> his pocket, I disagree. When we accept Jesus as the Lord and
> savior,
> He has to become the Lord of everything that we own including our
> pockets.
> So what is the problems with our sermons? We assume that the people
> have repented and all they need is just to give more, No! The
> people
> do not know the Lord. If they knew Him and trusted Him, stewardship
> will come naturally.
> After Zaccheus met the Lord, his pocket did not wait until the
> first
> stewardship sermon, his pocket repented immediately. Jesus made the
> rich young ruler understand that if he is to repent his pocket must
> repent too.
> There is a beautiful story that I heard some time ago. It is about
> a
> man who is about to be baptized and the deacon realized that he was
> still having his wallet in his pocket, so the deacon offered hold
> the
> man's wallet as he gets into the water. The man responded by saying
> no, I want my wallet to be baptized too. I guess that's what most
> us
> need!
>
> What makes things worse in our churches is that those who worship
> this god of materialism are highly respect and more often rewarded
> with positions. Yes, because he drives a BMW it means that the Lord
> is blessing him! And the result is that many of members are trying
> to
> get these BMW's so that they can arrive at a position of honor.
> How can they pay R4000.00 towards a BMW every month and still be
> able
> to return the faithful second tithe. That's impossible! We are
> expecting too much from the 'poor' people. We need to understand
> that
> some of these BMW are not blessings but curses. (NB there is
> nothing
> wrong with driving BMW's, this is just an illustration)
> In these last days there are three things that we need in our
> churches Repentance, Repentance, and Repentance!
> Lord help us all!
>
> (You will excuse me, I didnĘt enough time re-read this documents,
> so
> there might be a lot of mistakes)
>
> The King is even at the door!
>
> Jeremiah
>
>
>
> --- Vice-Rector for Academic Administration <vradmit@hbc.ac.za>
> wrote:
> > From: "Vice-Rector for Academic Administration"
> <vradmit@hbc.ac.za>
> >
> > >To me this seemed like double standards or counter-productive,
> in
> > one hand
> > we are preaching Christ to the little children and on the other
> we
> > are
> > introducing SAB to them at an early age.
> > >What is the view of members on this issue? Does the Spirit of
> > prophecy say
> > anything about sponsorship from such organisation? Does it matter
> > really
> > matter where the money comes from?
> > >What about grants from the Government?
> >
> >
> > With both the grant from Coca-Cola and the sponsorship from the
> SAB
> > I don't
> > feel it should be an issue, simply because one doesn't approve of
> a
> > product
> > or one of the ingredients in a product. I feel that our focus
> > should rather
> > be on spreading God's good news than on caffiene and beer. Many
> > sponsors
> > require an ad for their product to be on prominent display, as
> one
> > of the
> > conditions of the sponsorship. The fact that SAB is advertised
> > does not
> > mean all the kids will go out and buy beer - this remains the
> > responsibility
> > of the parents and educators in showing them the right way and
> > helping them
> > make right choices in life.
> >
> > Perhaps if our church members were more generous in giving money
> > towards
> > these projects there would be no need to seek sponsorship from
> > so-called
> > "shady" companies. I think that this is a problem that needs to
> be
> > addressed, instead of worrying about what company donates funds
> > that help
> > spread the Word.
> >
> > This is the end time! We do not have time to focus on trivial
> > matters or
> > get distracted from our task! Our energies should be directed
> > heavenwards!
> > God can use many means to help us spread His good news - we need
> to
> > focus on
>
=== message truncated ===
===
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
Jeremiah Ravhengani
Moderator (Masabatha Online)
www.masabatha.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:43:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: Welcome
Jongimpi,
I fully agree with you, we need more crusaders than crusades. If we
look at the early church we see they didn't wait until they have R50
000,00 before they could preach the gospel. The whole church was
involved in gossiping about the man who died and rose up from the
grave. To them it was such an exciting story they just couldn't stop
telling others about it, so from house to house and from village to
village they spread this gossip about the man called Jesus. The
preaching of Jesus and Him crucified was the highest priority in
their lives. Their lives revolved around evangelism
Why is our church not following the same example of the early church
believers? I would like to suggest two reasons.
1. The majority of those who are members of the church do not know
why they are in the church.
2. The division between the lay-members and the professional members
(pastors).
Let me now elaborate: The majority of those who are members of the
church do not know who Jesus is, in fact I believe that the failure
to understand Christ and what he stands for might be the reason why
the churches are full today. Many people don't know why they are in
the church, if you don't believe me, the following Sabbath ask the
members of your local congregation why are they in the church and you
will find interesting answers.
To become a Christian is to enlist in the army of Christ, it is to be
a soldier, and the duty of the soldier is to fight.
Many of us are like the majority of those who joined Gideon's army.
They joined the army, yet they were not ready to fight. Gideon sent
they home, and some times I think we can do better with a lean army.
I believe that many of us came with the idea of been soldiers but
after some time we became disillusioned and we have forgotten what we
are here for.
If Christ has done something for you, you can't keep quite, even
those that Christ told them not to tell anybody they just couldn't
help it; they had to tell somebody about it.
The question is, has Christ done (is doing) anything for us? Remember
a Christian who is not sharing the good news is like the Dead Sea,
dead! Sharing the good is the only way a Christian is going to
survive.
What can we do? We need a revival, as mother White says this is the
greatest and most urgent of all our needs. After the revival (change
of heart) them the reformation (change of the ways) will follow.
Mother White tells us that there is a repentance that needs
repentance there of.
A woman once asked a great preacher what she could do to maintain the
joy and happiness in the Lord. And the preacher said to her: "Every
day you need to spend 15 minutes talking to the Lord (in prayer), 15
minutes when the Lord is talking to you (reading the word) and 15
minutes of talking to others about the Lord (spreading the good
news)."
We all need to remember this every day.
2. The division between the lay-members and the professional members
(pastors).
Many of our members think that evangelism is the duty of the pastor
and conference evangelists. I wonder if we can blame them, after all
they are called lay-people, which means that they are not
professionals in this field. As much I might be a professional in the
field of milking cows, I am a lay man in field of the medicine or
law. This lay/professional mentality seems to be standing on the way
of evangelism. What I can I do? I am just a lay person; I will wait
for a professional. Unfortunately even some of these professional
really believe in this lay/professional business, because some really
get disturbed when lay people seem to be doing their work.
These divisions were not there in the early church, all the people
were under the same group called the laios (I speak no Greek) or the
people of God. Ministering was a role that people performed but it
was not a grouping of people. They all had a responsibility to spread
the gospel; even the deacons could baptize (Phillip).
If we are to have any success in evangelism we will need to address
this issue, by the way, this division came into the church during the
dark ages. A well documented research was done by Andrews University
that show that places where there is high pastor/member ratio the
church is growing much faster than were there is a low pastor/member
ratio. For example in Europe, where the pastor/ member ratio is 1 to
45 the church growth is -1 and in Latin America where the ratio is 1
to 600 the church growth 17%.
Isn't strange that we often say we need more ministers, maybe we need
fewer ministers.
Our churches in Latin America and some parts of Africa have already
found out this secret and their churches are growing like wild fire.
The lay people are trained and they perform the roles which are
traditional performed by pastors and the churches are prospering.
Mother White said this work is going to be finished by lay-people and
the ministers together.
I am happy to see that our Kwa-natal-free-state conference seem to be
going towards this direction by enlisting the services of some lay
people in doing the work traditionally done by pastors.
Work for the night is coming!
The King is even at the door!
Jeremiah
--- Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> I find your illustration very interesting and not amusing for it
> is true.
> Crusades are for people who are hungry and unemployed. Our church
> seems to
> specialise in reaching or targeting those who stay in shacks or
> temporal
> shelters. What about the rich and affluent how do we reach them?
>
> Should we run an anti-rich programme for them or how to be
> unemployed?
> Remember the Young rich ruler who approached Christ? He was told
> to get rid
> of his possession and follow Christ. Difficult, yes even more
> difficult
> than to reach poor people.
>
> What is the solution? The problem is that crusades are done by
> specialists, and yet I read from the Bible that everyone is
> supposed to be a
> witness. Let all our members be trained and encouraged to
> evangelise.
> Let us find new ways of sharing our faith. We should find it easy
> to talk
> about what Christ is doing in our lives before we can tell people
> what he
> wants from their lives.
> "When they see your good deeds they will glorify Him".
>
> Maybe we do not need more crusades, we need more Crusaders!
>
> Peace!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Modise <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] Welcome
>
>
> >From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
> >
> >Sam,
> >
> >The solution to the riddle is to find out why people don't attend
> the
> >crusades. The problem is that our ministry is often times not
> needs
> >based. For example, out tendency is to identify "unentered areas"
> and
> >put up a tent for a crusade. This is most of the time not based on
> a
> >proper needs analysis, in your field it would be a due dilligence
> >report. Some of the people you invite to the crusade would like
> to
> >attend the but have more pressing needs like putting food on the
> table
> >for their children. I can imagine that some of them are perhaps
> >wondering why we are not following the example of Jesus. Christ
> >addressed the basic needs of people first. Perhaps we need to
> think of
> >anti-poverty, anti-crime, counselling, skills development and job
> >creation programmes before we talk of crusades. Our needs are not
> >necessarily other people's needs. The art of fishing depends
> critically
> >on understanding the environment, behaviour and the type of fish
> you are
> >trying to catch, that will inform you as to what kind of bait to
> use and
> >when to throw the fishing rod into the water. We need to see human
> >beings (God's children) first before we can see targets for
> baptism
> >(statistics)!!!!
> >
> >The beauty of the above is that it fully complements "seek ye
> first the
> >kingdom of God and all else will be added unto you". More of that
> later
> >if you are interested!!!!
> >
> >God bless
> >
> >Andrew Modise
> >
> >
> >>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 08/10/99 04:07PM >>>
> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >
> >Sam,
> >What do you mean by inflatrating their churches?
> >You mean you will pretend to be their member? Sing as they sing,
> dance
> >as they do?
> >Won't it be living a lie? fooling them by prentending to be one of
> >them?
> >Here is the great philosophical question: Is it right to fool
> people
> >for their own good?
> >
> >Peace!
> >
> >Jeremiah
> >
> >>>> Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za> 08/10 2:59 AM >>>
> >Greetings
> >
> >I would like to appreciate the opportunity given to us to share
> >whatever
> >news or opinions we have without censorship.
> >Introducing Samuel Molefe Mthunzi Mthimkhulu,known as Sam,i grew
> up in
> >Tornado NW and moved to Pretoria in '90 and studied at TNT,I am
> >currently working at the same company from 95 till today working
> as
> >the
> >Internal Auditor.i am unmarried(soon my status will change pray
> for
> >me)my interest are evangelism,social discussion.
> >I want to share something with you that is bothering me for we
> have
> >crusades and people do not attend i was thinking what about
> >infiltration
> >to this churches?i hope you will help.
> >May God bless you
> >
> >Mthunzi
> >
> >
> >
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_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:11:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Fwd: Wearing of Jewellery!
Jongimpi,
I guess you wanted to send this to the list, it ended up on my box,
the mail list address is sa-sda@onelist.com
--- Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:44:47 +0200
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> Subject: Wearing of Jewellery!
> To: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Why is wearing of Jewellery such a major issue in the SDA church?
Before I go any further, let me share with you one of the
traditional texts often quoted as the basis for not wearing
jewellery.
"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment,such as braided
hair, and the wearing of gold jewellery and fine clothes, Instead
it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a
gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in the sight of
God." NIV
What is the main focus in this text? Is it the wearing of
jewellery? To me Peter is encouraging his listeners to focus on
the inner beauty and not the outward. He gives a few example of
what it means to focus on the outward.
What we have succeeded as as the church is to tell our members not
to wear jewellery, and this has become a sign of true adventism.
What about the gentle and quiet spirit Peter speaks of?
Who cares? As long as they are not wearing jewellery, then we can
all go home our business is over. What about fine clothes, who
wants to dare and talk about fine clothes? Today many of our
members are sinking in the pool of debt, because they are trying to
look beautiful. As long as we focus on the outward we will
produce faithful legalists who think that they are saved by not
wearing jewellery, never mind the gentle spirit. It reminds me of
the Pharisees of old, they were masters of the outward,
professional externalists.
I believe that we need to start focussing on what Peter is
emphasising in this text and that is the inner beauty. This is
the only solution to the sickness of materialism that is engulfing
our church today.
Should we wear jewellery or not? The answer is, what difference
does it make? The right question is, how can we develop an inner
beauty?
Jongimpi
===
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
Jeremiah Ravhengani
Moderator (Masabatha Online)
www.masabatha.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:13:13 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: RE: Welcome
** Proprietary **
** Reply Requested When Convenient **
Jerry,
"Mother White"? Did I read that right? "Mother White"
Lungani
>>> Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com> 08/16 4:43 AM >>>
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Jongimpi,
I fully agree with you, we need more crusaders than crusades. If we
look at the early church we see they didn't wait until they have R50
000,00 before they could preach the gospel. The whole church was
involved in gossiping about the man who died and rose up from the
grave. To them it was such an exciting story they just couldn't stop
telling others about it, so from house to house and from village to
village they spread this gossip about the man called Jesus. The
preaching of Jesus and Him crucified was the highest priority in
their lives. Their lives revolved around evangelism
Why is our church not following the same example of the early church
believers? I would like to suggest two reasons.
1. The majority of those who are members of the church do not know
why they are in the church.
2. The division between the lay-members and the professional members
(pastors).
Let me now elaborate: The majority of those who are members of the
church do not know who Jesus is, in fact I believe that the failure
to understand Christ and what he stands for might be the reason why
the churches are full today. Many people don't know why they are in
the church, if you don't believe me, the following Sabbath ask the
members of your local congregation why are they in the church and you
will find interesting answers.
To become a Christian is to enlist in the army of Christ, it is to be
a soldier, and the duty of the soldier is to fight.
Many of us are like the majority of those who joined Gideon's army.
They joined the army, yet they were not ready to fight. Gideon sent
they home, and some times I think we can do better with a lean army.
I believe that many of us came with the idea of been soldiers but
after some time we became disillusioned and we have forgotten what we
are here for.
If Christ has done something for you, you can't keep quite, even
those that Christ told them not to tell anybody they just couldn't
help it; they had to tell somebody about it.
The question is, has Christ done (is doing) anything for us? Remember
a Christian who is not sharing the good news is like the Dead Sea,
dead! Sharing the good is the only way a Christian is going to
survive.
What can we do? We need a revival, as mother White says this is the
greatest and most urgent of all our needs. After the revival (change
of heart) them the reformation (change of the ways) will follow.
Mother White tells us that there is a repentance that needs
repentance there of.
A woman once asked a great preacher what she could do to maintain the
joy and happiness in the Lord. And the preacher said to her: "Every
day you need to spend 15 minutes talking to the Lord (in prayer), 15
minutes when the Lord is talking to you (reading the word) and 15
minutes of talking to others about the Lord (spreading the good
news)."
We all need to remember this every day.
2. The division between the lay-members and the professional members
(pastors).
Many of our members think that evangelism is the duty of the pastor
and conference evangelists. I wonder if we can blame them, after all
they are called lay-people, which means that they are not
professionals in this field. As much I might be a professional in the
field of milking cows, I am a lay man in field of the medicine or
law. This lay/professional mentality seems to be standing on the way
of evangelism. What I can I do? I am just a lay person; I will wait
for a professional. Unfortunately even some of these professional
really believe in this lay/professional business, because some really
get disturbed when lay people seem to be doing their work.
These divisions were not there in the early church, all the people
were under the same group called the laios (I speak no Greek) or the
people of God. Ministering was a role that people performed but it
was not a grouping of people. They all had a responsibility to spread
the gospel; even the deacons could baptize (Phillip).
If we are to have any success in evangelism we will need to address
this issue, by the way, this division came into the church during the
dark ages. A well documented research was done by Andrews University
that show that places where there is high pastor/member ratio the
church is growing much faster than were there is a low pastor/member
ratio. For example in Europe, where the pastor/ member ratio is 1 to
45 the church growth is -1 and in Latin America where the ratio is 1
to 600 the church growth 17%.
Isn't strange that we often say we need more ministers, maybe we need
fewer ministers.
Our churches in Latin America and some parts of Africa have already
found out this secret and their churches are growing like wild fire.
The lay people are trained and they perform the roles which are
traditional performed by pastors and the churches are prospering.
Mother White said this work is going to be finished by lay-people and
the ministers together.
I am happy to see that our Kwa-natal-free-state conference seem to be
going towards this direction by enlisting the services of some lay
people in doing the work traditionally done by pastors.
Work for the night is coming!
The King is even at the door!
Jeremiah
--- Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> I find your illustration very interesting and not amusing for it
> is true.
> Crusades are for people who are hungry and unemployed. Our church
> seems to
> specialise in reaching or targeting those who stay in shacks or
> temporal
> shelters. What about the rich and affluent how do we reach them?
>
> Should we run an anti-rich programme for them or how to be
> unemployed?
> Remember the Young rich ruler who approached Christ? He was told
> to get rid
> of his possession and follow Christ. Difficult, yes even more
> difficult
> than to reach poor people.
>
> What is the solution? The problem is that crusades are done by
> specialists, and yet I read from the Bible that everyone is
> supposed to be a
> witness. Let all our members be trained and encouraged to
> evangelise.
> Let us find new ways of sharing our faith. We should find it easy
> to talk
> about what Christ is doing in our lives before we can tell people
> what he
> wants from their lives.
> "When they see your good deeds they will glorify Him".
>
> Maybe we do not need more crusades, we need more Crusaders!
>
> Peace!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Modise <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] Welcome
>
>
> >From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
> >
> >Sam,
> >
> >The solution to the riddle is to find out why people don't attend
> the
> >crusades. The problem is that our ministry is often times not
> needs
> >based. For example, out tendency is to identify "unentered areas"
> and
> >put up a tent for a crusade. This is most of the time not based on
> a
> >proper needs analysis, in your field it would be a due diligence
> >report. Some of the people you invite to the crusade would like
> to
> >attend the but have more pressing needs like putting food on the
> table
> >for their children. I can imagine that some of them are perhaps
> >wondering why we are not following the example of Jesus. Christ
> >addressed the basic needs of people first. Perhaps we need to
> think of
> >anti-poverty, anti-crime, counselling, skills development and job
> >creation programmes before we talk of crusades. Our needs are not
> >necessarily other people's needs. The art of fishing depends
> critically
> >on understanding the environment, behaviour and the type of fish
> you are
> >trying to catch, that will inform you as to what kind of bait to
> use and
> >when to throw the fishing rod into the water. We need to see human
> >beings (God's children) first before we can see targets for
> baptism
> >(statistics)!!!!
> >
> >The beauty of the above is that it fully complements "seek ye
> first the
> >kingdom of God and all else will be added unto you". More of that
> later
> >if you are interested!!!!
> >
> >God bless
> >
> >Andrew Modise
> >
> >
> >>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 08/10/99 04:07PM >>>
> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >
> >Sam,
> >What do you mean by infiltrating their churches?
> >You mean you will pretend to be their member? Sing as they sing,
> dance
> >as they do?
> >Won't it be living a lie? fooling them by pretending to be one of
> >them?
> >Here is the great philosophical question: Is it right to fool
> people
> >for their own good?
> >
> >Peace!
> >
> >Jeremiah
> >
> >>>> Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za> 08/10 2:59 AM >>>
> >Greetings
> >
> >I would like to appreciate the opportunity given to us to share
> >whatever
> >news or opinions we have without censorship.
> >Introducing Samuel Molefe Mthunzi Mthimkhulu,known as Sam,i grew
> up in
> >Tornado NW and moved to Pretoria in '90 and studied at TNT,I am
> >currently working at the same company from 95 till today working
> as
> >the
> >Internal Auditor.i am unmarried(soon my status will change pray
> for
> >me)my interest are evangelism,social discussion.
> >I want to share something with you that is bothering me for we
> have
> >crusades and people do not attend i was thinking what about
> >infiltration
> >to this churches?i hope you will help.
> >May God bless you
> >
> >Mthunzi
> >
> >
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> >----------------------------
> >
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> >
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:21:21 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Fw: Wearing of Jewellery!
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
To: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 8:44 PM
Subject: Wearing of Jewellery!
Why is wearing of Jewellery such a major issue in the SDA church?
Before I go any further, let me share with you one of the traditional texts often quoted as the basis for not wearing jewellery.
"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment,such as braided hair, and the wearing of gold jewellery and fine clothes, Instead it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in the sight of God." NIV
What is the main focus in this text? Is it the wearing of jewellery? To me Peter is encouraging his listeners to focus on the inner beauty and not the outward. He gives a few example of what it means to focus on the outward.
What we have succeeded as as the church is to tell our members not to wear jewellery, and this has become a sign of true adventism. What about the gentle and quiet spirit Peter speaks of?
Who cares? As long as they are not wearing jewellery, then we can all go home our business is over. What about fine clothes, who wants to dare and talk about fine clothes? Today many of our members are sinking in the pool of debt, because they are trying to look beautiful. As long as we focus on the outward we will produce faithful legalists who think that they are saved by not wearing jewellery, never mind the gentle spirit. It reminds me of the Pharisees of old, they were masters of the outward, professional externalists.
I believe that we need to start focussing on what Peter is emphasising in this text and that is the inner beauty. This is the only solution to the sickness of materialism that is engulfing our church today.
Should we wear jewellery or not? The answer is, what difference does it make? The right question is, how can we develop an inner beauty?
Jongimpi
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:00:55 +0200
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: RE: Welcome
Jerry
It was all i mean what you said,it came to mind what you are saying that
is why i asked brethren to help for i have a concern too,maybe you have
a better plan please help for i see the time is running out we need a
miracle i know that God will make a way.the answer to your philosophical
question is NO.
Sam
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mashudu Ravhengani [SMTP:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 4:08 PM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] Welcome
>
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
> Sam,
> What do you mean by inflatrating their churches?
> You mean you will pretend to be their member? Sing as they sing, dance
> as they do?
> Won't it be living a lie? fooling them by prentending to be one of
> them?
> Here is the great philosophical question: Is it right to fool people
> for their own good?
>
> Peace!
>
> Jeremiah
>
> >>> Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za> 08/10 2:59 AM >>>
> Greetings
>
> I would like to appreciate the opportunity given to us to share
> whatever
> news or opinions we have without censorship.
> Introducing Samuel Molefe Mthunzi Mthimkhulu,known as Sam,i grew up in
> Tornado NW and moved to Pretoria in '90 and studied at TNT,I am
> currently working at the same company from 95 till today working as
> the
> Internal Auditor.i am unmarried(soon my status will change pray for
> me)my interest are evangelism,social discussion.
> I want to share something with you that is bothering me for we have
> crusades and people do not attend i was thinking what about
> infiltration
> to this churches?i hope you will help.
> May God bless you
>
> Mthunzi
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> The King is even at the door!
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:07:21 +0200
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: RE: Welcome
My Friend
Thank you for responding to my concern,maybe it was in my wildest
imagination that i have forgotten the basics and i looked to far yet
there is something that can be done to train the crusaders another
question comes to mind are the people of God willing to become crusaders
or what?for many it seems they are not interested what can be done.
be still!
Sam
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jongimpi Papu [SMTP:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 10:40 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] Welcome
>
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> I find your illustration very interesting and not amusing for it is
> true.
> Crusades are for people who are hungry and unemployed. Our church
> seems to
> specialise in reaching or targeting those who stay in shacks or
> temporal
> shelters. What about the rich and affluent how do we reach them?
>
> Should we run an anti-rich programme for them or how to be unemployed?
> Remember the Young rich ruler who approached Christ? He was told to
> get rid
> of his possession and follow Christ. Difficult, yes even more
> difficult
> than to reach poor people.
>
> What is the solution? The problem is that crusades are done by
> specialists, and yet I read from the Bible that everyone is supposed
> to be a
> witness. Let all our members be trained and encouraged to
> evangelise.
> Let us find new ways of sharing our faith. We should find it easy to
> talk
> about what Christ is doing in our lives before we can tell people what
> he
> wants from their lives.
> "When they see your good deeds they will glorify Him".
>
> Maybe we do not need more crusades, we need more Crusaders!
>
> Peace!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Modise <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] Welcome
>
>
> >From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
> >
> >Sam,
> >
> >The solution to the riddle is to find out why people don't attend the
> >crusades. The problem is that our ministry is often times not needs
> >based. For example, out tendency is to identify "unentered areas" and
> >put up a tent for a crusade. This is most of the time not based on a
> >proper needs analysis, in your field it would be a due dilligence
> >report. Some of the people you invite to the crusade would like to
> >attend the but have more pressing needs like putting food on the
> table
> >for their children. I can imagine that some of them are perhaps
> >wondering why we are not following the example of Jesus. Christ
> >addressed the basic needs of people first. Perhaps we need to think
> of
> >anti-poverty, anti-crime, counselling, skills development and job
> >creation programmes before we talk of crusades. Our needs are not
> >necessarily other people's needs. The art of fishing depends
> critically
> >on understanding the environment, behaviour and the type of fish you
> are
> >trying to catch, that will inform you as to what kind of bait to use
> and
> >when to throw the fishing rod into the water. We need to see human
> >beings (God's children) first before we can see targets for baptism
> >(statistics)!!!!
> >
> >The beauty of the above is that it fully complements "seek ye first
> the
> >kingdom of God and all else will be added unto you". More of that
> later
> >if you are interested!!!!
> >
> >God bless
> >
> >Andrew Modise
> >
> >
> >>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 08/10/99 04:07PM >>>
> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >
> >Sam,
> >What do you mean by inflatrating their churches?
> >You mean you will pretend to be their member? Sing as they sing,
> dance
> >as they do?
> >Won't it be living a lie? fooling them by prentending to be one of
> >them?
> >Here is the great philosophical question: Is it right to fool people
> >for their own good?
> >
> >Peace!
> >
> >Jeremiah
> >
> >>>> Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za> 08/10 2:59 AM >>>
> >Greetings
> >
> >I would like to appreciate the opportunity given to us to share
> >whatever
> >news or opinions we have without censorship.
> >Introducing Samuel Molefe Mthunzi Mthimkhulu,known as Sam,i grew up
> in
> >Tornado NW and moved to Pretoria in '90 and studied at TNT,I am
> >currently working at the same company from 95 till today working as
> >the
> >Internal Auditor.i am unmarried(soon my status will change pray for
> >me)my interest are evangelism,social discussion.
> >I want to share something with you that is bothering me for we have
> >crusades and people do not attend i was thinking what about
> >infiltration
> >to this churches?i hope you will help.
> >May God bless you
> >
> >Mthunzi
> >
> >
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> >----------------------------
> >
> >ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> >The King is even at the door!
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
> >
> >GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards
> points,
> > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR.
> >Apply online today!
> http://www.onelist.com/ad/nextcard1
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> >The King is even at the door!
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> Create a list for FRIENDS & FAMILY...
> ...and YOU can WIN $100 to Amazon.com. For details, go to
> http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> The King is even at the door!
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:23:23 +0200
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: Introduction of myself...
Thabo
We are very thankful that you joined us and you are warmly welcomed and
may your prayers be answered very soon.
peace
sam
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thabo Nale [SMTP:nalet@telkom32.telkom.co.za]
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 8:13 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: [sa-sda] Introduction of myself...
>
> From: "Thabo Nale" <nalet@telkom32.telkom.co.za>
>
> Greetings to one and all,
>
> My name is Thabo Nale. I only have one name, which makes it easier to
> responde when anyone calls me. I am working in the Telkom Development
> Laboratory as an Electronic Development Engineer. I studied at the
> University of Natal in Durban.
>
> I am a born Adventist but I converted in the beginning of 1995 while I
> was still studying. Ever since then I never regretted walking with
> the
> Lord.
>
> I am currently single, but I'm looking forward to a marriage life with
> a
> wonderful lady in my life. Don't worry, in the fullness of time, I
> will
> let you know what's on my mind right now.
>
> Both my parents are still alive and I'm very grateful to the Lord for
> them.
>
> I guess that's how far my introduction goes. I believe the rest will
> be
> picked up as time goes on and as we get to know each other even
> better.
>
> I'm glad to be in this mailing list and my the Good Lord pour His
> blessing on this endeavour.
>
> Christian regards
>
> Thabo Nale - Dev. Engineer
> Telkom Development Laboratory
> eMail: nalet@telkom.co.za
>
> Tel: +27 12 529 7500
> Cell: +27 82 373 0840
> Fax: +27 12 548 0065
>
> ***** See our Products at: www.lab.telkom.co.za *****
>
>
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> The King is even at the door!
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:23:10 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Welcome
** Proprietary **
** Reply Requested When Convenient **
My brother, Sam,
I guess we need to recognize one of the most fundamental truths in
God's operation - he never works with quantity. All that is important
in the whole issue is that you are willing to work for him. He has made
tremendous headlines in Asia in the times of Paul. He worked miracles
in Europe with guys like John Huss and Martin Luther. He make the
little sacrificed for Him the best.
This reminds of one slogan for a small engineering company, it read "We
know we are not the biggest but we are the best". I think that is God's
stratergy - David and Goliath, Joshua and the Philistines.
If you alone are at the Lord's temple waiting to be used - don't worry
about the rest.
I believe He is at the door.
Lungani
Lungani A. Mfeka
Consultant: Revenue Tracking
Finance & Marketing Services
012 304 1278 (Tel)
082 767 5384 (Cell)
012 304 1288 (Fx)
012 324 5121 (Fax)
E-mail: mfekal@telkom.co.za
_______________________________________________________________________________
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