Digest 67, originally sent Sat Oct 23 06:52:47 1999
There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Disc: Topics
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
2. Re: Disc: Topics
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
3. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
4. Re: Disc: Topics
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
5. Re: Topics
From: "pitso patrick" <pitsotsibs@xxxxxxx.xxxx
6. Re: Disc: Topics
From: "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@xxxx.xx.xxx
7. Topics
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
8. RE: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
9. Re: Are the dead really dead?
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
10. Disc: Topics
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
11. Re: Are the dead really dead?
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 04:28:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Disc: Topics
Alvin,
In one of my earlier mails I suggested that each person choose at
most three topics. But you can not choose the same topic twice.
We will improve this process as we go.
He will come!
Jeremiah
--- Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za> wrote:
>
>
> Mashudu Ravhengani wrote:
>
> > Friends,
> >
> > Here is the list of topics that I have received so far, please
> make you vote, as you can see very few people have responded, so
> the choices do not reflect the wishes of the masses.
> >
>
> How are we suppossed to make the vote? How many votes does each
> person have?
>
> Alvin.
>
>
>
>
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> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
> sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
Jeremiah Ravhengani
Moderator (Masabatha Online)
www.masabatha.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 04:30:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Disc: Topics
Lungani,
I guess that end time prophecy, Daniel & Revelation
He will come
Jeremiah
--- Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> What is eschatology? Please break it down for me and others who
> may
> not have an idea.
>
> Lungani
>
> >>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 10/21/99 04:23PM >>>
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
> Friends,
>
> Here is the list of topics that I have received so far, please make
> you
> vote, as you can see very few people have responded, so the choices
> do
> not reflect the wishes of the masses.
>
> The Gospel Commission
>
> 2
> History of the SDA Church in Southern Africa
> 2
> Nature of Christ
> 2
> Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa 2
> Salvation (all the phases)
> 1
> Christian church in general
> 1
> History of Adventism
> 1
> Eschatology
> 1
> Crisis in Adventism
> 1
> Power struggle in the church
> 1
> Prayer and Fasting
> 1
> Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa 2
> Open Week
> 0
> Testimonies Week
> 0
>
>
> Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa,
> This topic has been dealt with extensively under the theme TOC/TC
> merger. I will advise new member to go to the Masabatha Online
> archives
> (www.masabatha.org) and familiarize themselves with the issues
> discussed. I don't see as going back to this issue in the new
> future,
> unless there is a popular demand from the masses.
>
> History of the SDA Church in Southern Africa
> Somebody needs to do research on this subject, otherwise it will be
> very difficult to discuss it. Any volunteers?
>
> Wait and murmur not!
>
> Jeremiah
>
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> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
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>
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> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
> sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 04:36:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Lungani,
Thank you, that's enlightning, I guess that's bacause you have stood
on both sides of the fence.
He will come!
Jeremiah
--- Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> I believe that this discussion will end - some day, even though it
> seems a very interesting issue to deliberate on.
>
> I would like to say a thing or two in response to the question
> asked -
> " Do we still need pastors in our church?"
>
> I believe that all of us are called to spread the word to every
> hill
> and valley - leaving no stone unturned not turn unstoned. But this
> does
> not dictate a stereotypical means of meeting the ends.
>
> Firstly, as it was mentioned before the term pastor means shepard -
> shepard of the sheep in the fold. This to me means that this human
> being is put here for the feeding of the sheep in the fold, making
> sure
> that they get all they will need to end up looking like a well fed
> flock.
>
> I believe that this is what pastors are meant to do as well, taking
> care of the church members. Leading them heavenward.
>
> This has a great influence on evangelism as well. A good pastor,
> able
> enough to let his congregation see Christ for who He is, sows more
> seeds
> in his church members that germinate elsewhere. Just as a good
> parent
> would attract more visitors and resident visitors, so can a good
> pastor
> evangelize in his community. He can make people wish to be part of
> his
> congregation - applying for adoption - just like neighboring
> children
> would wish to be members of a loving family next door of up the
> hill.
>
> Secondly, Christ called not only the eloquent Peters and missionary
> Phillips but there also were the quite, loving and caring Andrews.
> We
> all in our diversity are called to labour in Gods vineyard.
> Remember
> the part where Christ told his disciples that they did not choose
> Him
> but He actually called them to bear fruits? We all are called to
> reflect his life and love to both those who know Him and those who
> know
> Him not - yes, but some of us can only be able to attract those
> who are
> similar to them. Will I be wrong when I say that what can attract
> a
> person would be seeing someone just like him following Christ? Or
> lets
> say, someone who once was just like him - Christ. I remember the
> person
> who made me become a pastor - he was a guy who had a weakness like
> mine
> before he became a pastor. When I saw him making it I was sure
> that
> there was hope for me too. Birds of like furthers do sometimes
> flock
> together.
>
> We have been chanelled to believe that evangelism is preaching in
> tents
> and traveling miles to distant land converting heathens to a
> better
> light - but there are those next to us whose love for Christ has
> grown
> blunt and dim. Some for whom Christ love has remained an old
> irrelevant
> story. A smile, a gift, a prayer, a plate of food, a payment of a
> burdensome bill, you name them, can be the best sermon and bible
> study
> ever held.
>
> What am I saying? I don't think it is not obvious that I believe
> that
> we still need pastors - I aslo do not want to critisize and analyze
> our
> pastoral behaviour - it won't help, we all know about it. But
> more,
> pastors are meant to take care of the sheep. Pastoring and
> evangelism
> are mutually inclusive but not in our dictated terms. When I need
> spiritual guidance I want to know that there is a man of God who
> can
> lead me to a better light. This can help me go out and tell more
> how my
> spiritual problem was sorted out and how much more I love God.
> Remember
> the woman at the well? Isn't that evangelism?
>
> I just want to know him...
>
> Lungani
>
> >>> "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> 10/22/99 01:31AM >>>
> From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
>
> Jongimpi
>
> I couldn't agree more. In fact, I raised this issue sometime ago
> on
> this
> very site and I termed it 'sanctifying administration.' You have
> excellent
> preachers and evangelists tied down to administration work in the
> office,
> and with respect, sometimes which they are not very well equipped
> to
> handle.
> My question was then and still is, why not get professional
> administrators,
> suitably qualified and equipped to run whatever portfolio there is
> in
> the
> office than put good man into a wrong track which makes them
> eventually
> wrong? Our top preachers are forever chasing unending demands of
> the
> office
> and little attention to the core business is done. In the
> corporate
> world
> they will ask you, what is your core business? Administration is a
> support
> function and therefore business principle says you do not invest in
> the
> support function more than you would invest in your core business.
> I
> feel
> really passionate about this and I wish someone out there could do
> something
> about it.
>
> Ps Letseli made a point very well that you would still need the
> carriers of
> the Adventist ethos and spiritual guides in your administration.
> To
> this, I
> responded, yes, you may prescribe for instance that your President
> must
> be a
> Pastor for this purpose. Like a Chairman in the Board of
> Directors,
> he/she
> need not be an expert in the business field of the corporation
> he/she
> presides over. However, for Treasury you need commercial skill
> more
> than
> you need an Adventist ethos. The figures must just balance and
> sound
> auditing practices must be in place etc. When you are a Secretary,
> you
> are
> a Human Resource Manager and if you terminate people unlawfully,
> the
> CCMA
> will be all over you. This time, it's not the ethos, it's ability
> to
> interpret the Labour Relations Act and to apply correct procedures.
>
> May we revisit this? We get dragged into the media sometimes and
> we
> need
> politically sensitive approach. You see the list is endless. From
> the
> SAU,
> this must be the practice, in fact from GC, although from both of
> these
> structures, the practice of getting suitably qualified people is
> practiced.
>
> Anywhere with Jesus I can safely go
>
>
> Boyce
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
>
>
> >From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> >
> >Friends
> >Andrew and Jerry make two interesting remarks on this subject.
> Somewhere
> >Andrews laments the fact that they did not take the decision early
> enough
> to
> >work as if they have no pastor, his remark is that had they done
> this,they
> >would have achieved a lot. that is a mouth full.
> >
>
=== message truncated ===
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The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
Jeremiah Ravhengani
Moderator (Masabatha Online)
www.masabatha.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:56:40 +0200
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Disc: Topics
Hallo Church-Online,
My choice of topics:
1. Crisis in Adventism
2. Nature of Christ
3. Christian Church
Greetings from the Cape and wish you all a blessed Sabbath and nice weekend.
Alvin.
_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 05:08:32 PDT
From: "pitso patrick" <pitsotsibs@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Topics
hello everyone
my choice of topics is as follows:
1) history of SDA'ism in Southern Africa
2) testimonies
A suggestion
-- The influence of Western cultures on African Adventists.
enjoy the blessings of the holy hours(can almost smell them)
bye-bye
[pitso]
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:18:54 +0200
From: "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Disc: Topics
My preferences:
1. History of SDA-Church in SA
Option:
2. Contextualisation - This raises issues such as dominance of western
linguistics in our church. It also asks if there is a neutral Gospel out
there that everybody could agree to... or does Christ become somebody
different for every person? Is there a danger of syncretism in a
contextual approach to the Bible.
----- Original Message -----
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Disc: Topics
>From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
>
>Hallo Church-Online,
>
>My choice of topics:
>1. Crisis in Adventism
>2. Nature of Christ
>3. Christian Church
>
>Greetings from the Cape and wish you all a blessed Sabbath and nice
weekend.
>
>Alvin.
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:14:22 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Topics
Friends,
Here is my choice:
Crisis in Adventism
The gospel commission
Abortion
The Lord bless you all.
Nick
_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:56:06 +0200
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: Do we still need Pastors?
Friends,
I share the same sentiments as Nick and Boyce.
My view is that whereas we are all co-labourers with Christ in the
gospel work, no one is indispensable. The fact that churches and the
gospel work have been running quite successfully with little help from
or without pastors is not in dispute or question, as this is our
practical everyday experience (furthermore, if we are agreeable on the
preceding point, then the question of whether we still need pastors is
even more serious). What I am questioning is this, if the pastor is not
on the gospel battlefield, in the church or officially on leave, where
is he? He must be AWOL!!!!
What mechanisms are there to ensure accountability to the churches? As
it is, at least in my view, churches are accountable to pastors and the
conference instead of the other way round.
Finally, what qualifies pastors to do administrative work? What is the
curriculum like for pastoral studies? What core
knowledge/skill/competency to pastors leave college/university with? Is
being a pastor a calling or an occupation?
"Come in ye faithful servants"
Happy Sabbath!!!!
Andrew
PS God willing, I will only be able to join the discussion again in a
week's time.
>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com> 10/21/99 05:18PM >>>
Brethren and Sisteren,
Pardon me for adopting the I.M Buwa type of greeting.
The story of pastors being onlookers does not auger well for the
general
membership. I am unable to accept the fact that the pastor/evangelist
(what
is the difference betwen these two words) should simply keep on looking
when
the larger body of lay people is busy fostering the work out in the
field. I
think this is what Andrew was trying to make in his response. Where I
am
there are many spectator pastors. Yes the churches are growing where
the lay
members have taken the job on their shoulders without the pastos
assistance,
but even in those other churches where one supposes the pastor spends
his
time the church is not not growing either. So what are they doing?
Preach
during the divine service, conduct communion service, conduct elections
and
a bit of study with the church. What about the second part of working
as
co-labourers with the laity in the job of looking for the lost sheep?
By the way our pastors have the whole week preparing to pray, visit
and
administer to the flock. Once we can begin to count the visits pastors
make
to their parishioners you will be surprised to discover that there is
less
that is done. Thus I agree that some form of a performance appraisal
needs
to be put in place quickly to motivate, promote and demote
accordingly.
Lastly, there are guidelines on birth control voted by the Annual
Council at
the GC on 29 September 1999. One intersting issue that arises concerns
abortion. They just make a blanket statement to the effect that
abortion is
not morally for purposes of birth control. I accept the statement
fully. All
I am asking is whether our church does not have specific guidelines
regarding exceptions regarding the question of when one may abort.
God bless you all.
Nick
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:02:01 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Are the dead really dead?
Mdu
I am sure we will discuss this some other time, maybe in one of our open weeks, it will be interesting and informative that I can guarantee.
I am sure it would be sin to allow you to be lost on Sabbath, let me briefly explain what I meant.
My point here is that we need to go beyond just proving that the dead are dead, that they are dead is a fact, but what is the good news about that? Bearing in mind that truth is not always good news, but of course good news is always based on truth. The challenge is for us to be able to preach about death even in our own pulpits, to the Adventists. I will not yield to the temptation of arguing the above, but suffice it to say that, the fact that the dead are dead is not only true it is good, dead people who are alive must be very miserable - that is why the devil is so keen in spreading this lie, for in the process God looks bad also.
Happy Sabbath, Mdu, Let us be comforted by the fact that we serve a good God, who after giving our first parents all the presents they needed for this life, went further and grace them with His presence, when He put the whole day aside to be with them. Happy Sabbath. Let us go and be a blessing to the body of Christ.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Fairbridge Dlamini <dlaminif@emsa.co.za>
To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Are the dead really dead?
Friends
Jongimpi wrote,
As indicated above, we will need more time for this, let us have it also as
a topic to be discussed what do you think? We might just broaden it to
include many such practises that seems to contradict our beliefs.
Does this then mean that we suspend deliberations on this topic. I do really hope that it come again in its broaden format.
In the meantime, just a slight twist on the topic, Why should the dead remain dead?
The answer to this, I think will give us what I can call the good news about
death and the dead. I still regard death as an enemy, but remember God can
bring good even out of death.
My good pastor you have lost me here would you please clarify.
His coming is sooner than when we first believed.
Mdu
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [SMTP:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: 22 October 1999 10:22
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Are the dead really dead?
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Lulama my Friend
Long time no see. You have raised a good point, I do not think that we will
have enough time to deliberate on this, since it is already Friday. The
dead are really dead and I am sure we believe that. Our problem is that
of consistency between what we believe and what we practise. We have not
yet given ourselves time to reflect critically on some of the practises that
we have imbibed from our surroundings and also carried from our former
beliefs. Indeed the rationale behind some of these practises leaves a lot
to be desired. I know at times we hide behind culture, and that animal
culture has many faces, and seems to fit anywhere. I remember in one
wedding, the bride/groom and the entourage, came in dancing to Brenda
Fassie's music, when asked,they said it is our culture.
As indicated above, we will need more time for this, let us have it also as
a topic to be discussed what do you think? We might just broaden it to
include many such practises that seems to contradict our beliefs. In the
meantime, just a slight twist on the topic, Why should the dead remain dead?
The answer to this, I think will give us what I can call the good news about
death and the dead. I still regard death as an enemy, but remember God can
bring good even out of death.
God is good
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Lulama R. Zantsi <wels124@welspta.pwv.gov.za>
To: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>; sa-sda@onelist.com
<sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 7:54 AM
Subject: [sa-sda] Are the dead really dead?
>From: "Lulama R. Zantsi" <wels124@welspta.pwv.gov.za>
>
>Beloved,>
>Of course, one realizes that this is the last day for general
>discussions.
>
>The English adage goes:"Actions speak louder than words". It's one
>thing to know, it's another to apply or even live a belief for that
>matter.
>
>The question of the State of the Dead seems to be a mind-boggling
>issue. SDA's dearly hold on to the truth that the dead know not
>anything, at least theoretically. But do we really believe that? Our
>funerals are characterized by some tendencies that seem to state the
>opposite. For example, we attach special significance to the
>deceased's favourite hymn/song and utilize it as the theme song for
>the funeral. In one instance, the deceased's valuables were thrown
>into the grave on top of the coffin. One must have witnessed many
>instances were the actual programs for the event would be thrown into
>the grave as well. Not to mention the abundance or proliferation of
>memorial services - to remember and honour the dead. In church, we
>would rise in honour when the coffin and bereaved family enter and
>leave the holy place. One Pastor-friend of mine even proposed that
>such an honour would befit a Pathfinder approaching the watery grave
>of baptism!. During the Pentecost "98 baptisms, one local Pastor did
>just. Not to mention the new/beautiful clothes, expensive
>casket/coffin, the three-course or more meal(s). In fact, sometimes
>the delicacies of the funeral would far outdo and outshine the
>graduation party. The crowning act would be the inscription on the
>tombstone:"Rest in Peace" (addresses to the dead?)
>
>One is not expressing a viewpoint against decent burial for the
>beloved deceased.I probably need such too. But somehow these
>tendencies have the cumulative effect of begging the question:"Are
>the dead really dead?" Is it a question of theory versus practice or
>the talk versus the walk or absolute vs relative? Or perhaps, none of
>the above? What do others feel out there? God bless.
>
>To know Him and make Him known.
>
>Lulama
>willing to learn
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:16:04 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Disc: Topics
Friends,
Here is the update list:
History of the SDA Church in Southern Africa 5
The Gospel Commission 4
Crisis in Adventism 4
Nature of Christ 3
Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa 2
Salvation (all the phases) 1
Christian church in general 1
History of Adventism 2
Eschatology 1
Power struggle in the church 1
Prayer and Fasting 1
Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa 2
Open Week 0
Testimonies Week 1
Abortion 2
Are the dead really dead 2
Contextualisation * "dominance of western linguistics in our church" 1
As you can see, History of SDA church in SA is very popular, however I would us to take some time and research this topic, If someone has some documentation on this subject please share it with us. We will discuss this subject after two weeks.
For the next two weeks, we will discuss the 2nd and 3rd most popular topics:
1. The gospel commission and
2. Crisis in Adventism
Those who chose the Gospel commission, you can start sending us your views on this subject.
The Crisis in Adventism is a subject that I raised few weeks ago, I will re-post my message for the benefit of the new members
May you all have a blessed Rest, as we commemorate creation and redemption while looking forward to the eternal Rest!
He is coming!
MJ Ravhengani
www.masabatha.org
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:37:53 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Are the dead really dead?
Jongimpi,
"Dead people who are alive must be very miserable"?
How can you make fun of 'life & death' issues?????
Thank you for lightening up even the 'dead' serious issues
He is coming
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 10/22 10:02 AM >>>
Mdu
I am sure we will discuss this some other time, maybe in one of our open weeks, it will be interesting and informative that I can guarantee.
I am sure it would be sin to allow you to be lost on Sabbath, let me briefly explain what I meant.
My point here is that we need to go beyond just proving that the dead are dead, that they are dead is a fact, but what is the good news about that? Bearing in mind that truth is not always good news, but of course good news is always based on truth. The challenge is for us to be able to preach about death even in our own pulpits, to the Adventists. I will not yield to the temptation of arguing the above, but suffice it to say that, the fact that the dead are dead is not only true it is good, dead people who are alive must be very miserable - that is why the devil is so keen in spreading this lie, for in the process God looks bad also.
Happy Sabbath, Mdu, Let us be comforted by the fact that we serve a good God, who after giving our first parents all the presents they needed for this life, went further and grace them with His presence, when He put the whole day aside to be with them. Happy Sabbath. Let us go and be a blessing to the body of Christ.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Fairbridge Dlamini <dlaminif@emsa.co.za>
To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Are the dead really dead?
Friends
Jongimpi wrote,
As indicated above, we will need more time for this, let us have it also as
a topic to be discussed what do you think? We might just broaden it to
include many such practises that seems to contradict our beliefs.
Does this then mean that we suspend deliberations on this topic. I do really hope that it come again in its broaden format.
In the meantime, just a slight twist on the topic, Why should the dead remain dead?
The answer to this, I think will give us what I can call the good news about
death and the dead. I still regard death as an enemy, but remember God can
bring good even out of death.
My good pastor you have lost me here would you please clarify.
His coming is sooner than when we first believed.
Mdu
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [SMTP:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: 22 October 1999 10:22
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Are the dead really dead?
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Lulama my Friend
Long time no see. You have raised a good point, I do not think that we will
have enough time to deliberate on this, since it is already Friday. The
dead are really dead and I am sure we believe that. Our problem is that
of consistency between what we believe and what we practise. We have not
yet given ourselves time to reflect critically on some of the practises that
we have imbibed from our surroundings and also carried from our former
beliefs. Indeed the rationale behind some of these practises leaves a lot
to be desired. I know at times we hide behind culture, and that animal
culture has many faces, and seems to fit anywhere. I remember in one
wedding, the bride/groom and the entourage, came in dancing to Brenda
Fassie's music, when asked,they said it is our culture.
As indicated above, we will need more time for this, let us have it also as
a topic to be discussed what do you think? We might just broaden it to
include many such practises that seems to contradict our beliefs. In the
meantime, just a slight twist on the topic, Why should the dead remain dead?
The answer to this, I think will give us what I can call the good news about
death and the dead. I still regard death as an enemy, but remember God can
bring good even out of death.
God is good
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Lulama R. Zantsi <wels124@welspta.pwv.gov.za>
To: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>; sa-sda@onelist.com
<sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 7:54 AM
Subject: [sa-sda] Are the dead really dead?
>From: "Lulama R. Zantsi" <wels124@welspta.pwv.gov.za>
>
>Beloved,>
>Of course, one realizes that this is the last day for general
>discussions.
>
>The English adage goes:"Actions speak louder than words". It's one
>thing to know, it's another to apply or even live a belief for that
>matter.
>
>The question of the State of the Dead seems to be a mind-boggling
>issue. SDA's dearly hold on to the truth that the dead know not
>anything, at least theoretically. But do we really believe that? Our
>funerals are characterized by some tendencies that seem to state the
>opposite. For example, we attach special significance to the
>deceased's favourite hymn/song and utilize it as the theme song for
>the funeral. In one instance, the deceased's valuables were thrown
>into the grave on top of the coffin. One must have witnessed many
>instances were the actual programs for the event would be thrown into
>the grave as well. Not to mention the abundance or proliferation of
>memorial services - to remember and honour the dead. In church, we
>would rise in honour when the coffin and bereaved family enter and
>leave the holy place. One Pastor-friend of mine even proposed that
>such an honour would befit a Pathfinder approaching the watery grave
>of baptism!. During the Pentecost "98 baptisms, one local Pastor did
>just. Not to mention the new/beautiful clothes, expensive
>casket/coffin, the three-course or more meal(s). In fact, sometimes
>the delicacies of the funeral would far outdo and outshine the
>graduation party. The crowning act would be the inscription on the
>tombstone:"Rest in Peace" (addresses to the dead?)
>
>One is not expressing a viewpoint against decent burial for the
>beloved deceased.I probably need such too. But somehow these
>tendencies have the cumulative effect of begging the question:"Are
>the dead really dead?" Is it a question of theory versus practice or
>the talk versus the walk or absolute vs relative? Or perhaps, none of
>the above? What do others feel out there? God bless.
>
>To know Him and make Him known.
>
>Lulama
>willing to learn
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
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