Digest 66, originally sent Fri Oct 22 07:25:46 1999
There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Web Development
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
2. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
3. Disc: Topics
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
4. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
5. RE: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
6. Re: RE: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
7. Re[2]: Do we still need Pastors?
From: <jbvanyaza@caltex.co.za>
8. Re: Disc: Topics
From: "kebogile mokwena" <kmokwena@xxxxxxx.xxxx
9. Are the dead really dead?
From: "Lulama R. Zantsi" <wels124@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
10. Re: Disc: Topics
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
11. Re: Disc: Topics
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
12. Eschatology..
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
13. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
14. Re: Are the dead really dead?
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
15. RE: Are the dead really dead?
From: Fairbridge Dlamini <dlaminif@xxxx.xx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:25:30 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Web Development
Friends,
I realize that there are a lot of people who have interest on this subject, I will be posting the information that I have promised some time next week
Blow the trumpet, The King is coming!
Jeremiah
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:33:39 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Friends
Andrew and Jerry make two interesting remarks on this subject. Somewhere
Andrews laments the fact that they did not take the decision early enough to
work as if they have no pastor, his remark is that had they done this,they
would have achieved a lot. that is a mouth full.
Jerry observes, correctly that, churches that do not have pastors over them
tend to grow very fast. Ellen White seems to be making a similar
observation when she says, "The churches are dying and they want a minister
to preach to them. They should be taught to bring a faithful tithe to God,
that HE may strengthen and bless them: they should be brought into working
order, that the breath of God may come to them. They should be taught that
unless they can stand alone without a minister, they need to be converted
anew, and baptised anew. They need to be born again." Evangelism, 381
Maybe we do need pastors as most of us have observed, but the role needs to
be aligned to our mission. It is very difficult to the modern pastor to
fulfil all that is expected of him by the members, this may lead to a lot of
frustration, both by the pastor and the members. But even the so called
good pastor, may actually find himself blocking the progress of the church,
especially when the church comes to depend on him, since he is so good.
Maybe we need to have 1 pastor for every 20-30 churches, to help the
churches realise that the pastor cannot be everything to all of them.
It is noted that in the 1870's, it took two pastors to plant one church, but
in the 1990s it took 122 pastors to raise a church(Ministry Magazine -
October 1999)
Indeed Every Believer is a Minister, so Jerry my friend you are a minister
both by qualification and practise.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Andrew wrote:
>>> " God-fearing, committed and dedicated pastors"?
>
>I sense some frustrations here.
>Let us remember that pastors are men like us. Are we God-fearing, committed
and dedicated members?
>E.G White wrote: "Do not place the minister where God should be. The
minister of Christ is like other men. True, he bears sacred
responsibilities, but he is not infallible." The Youth's Instructor,
February 15, 1900, paragraph 6
>
>>> "For evangelism and soul nurturing."
>
>I think this is where most of us go wrong. The great commission is given to
all of us (I am tempted to say equally). All of us have the responsibility
to do the work of evangelism, and through love, to nurture new souls. Let's
get this straight, it is just as our responsibility as the pastor's. How can
we expect a pastor, who has 8 churches, to focus on evangelism on any of the
churches? Or to nurture souls that he sees once every three months?
>There is a mentality in many of our churches that if the pastor does not
initiate evangelist project nothing will be done. I don't need a pastor to
tell me to witness in my community. I don't need a pastor to tell me to love
my fellow church member. As I have said yesterday I do need a pastor to
train me on how to preach, how to conduct Bible studies, etc. Let's ask
(demand) our pastors or conference officials to train us , I don't think
they can refuse, let me say that the few times I tried they have never
refused. However, evangelism is what I have been called to do. As long as I
have a Bible in my hand and can preach the good news, I do not need a
pastor. I think we need to stop complaining about pastors (I know it is
easy) and start doing the work. Pastors who are lazy or uncommitted will
have to give an account to God and we just have to do our part. May be the
pastor will repent when he sees us been faithful to our calling. May be you
are the only Christ that the "uncommitted past
> or" will ever meet (th
>E. G White wrote: "When we follow plans of the Lord's devising, we are
"laborers together with God." Whatever our position,-- whether presidents
>of conferences, ministers, teachers, students, or lay members,--we are held
accountable by the Lord for making the most of our opportunities to
enlighten those in need of present truth"
>Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. 86
>
>>> "... We will continue to be in limbo"
>
>This should never be. The church of God should never rely on mortal man to
do its mission. In fact, research tells us that the fastest growing churches
are the ones without pastors. The church that is in limbo must arise before
it is too late.
>Many of us do not realize that we have been called to be crusaders. Our
church manual states that the first item on each church board should be
evangelism, how many of you elders out there know or follow this?
>
>>> "Unless roles and responsibilities *"
>
>Whose roles? Does the membership know their roles? Who assigns roles? Is it
God or man? We must remember the pasturing is a calling not so much an
employment. And all of us a called to different roles.
>Having said all of that I will be the first to admit that I have been
frustrated many times by pastors, but an uncommitted pastor can never stop
me (or the church) from doing God's work. If you are interested I can give
you some interesting experiences.
>
>>>We do "need each other", but for what?
>
>For the purpose of completing the work of the gospel.
>We are the body of Christ. The head needs the hands as much as the ears
need the legs. Instead of been so critical of one another, let us pray for
each other. Pray for the "uncommitted" pastor. This is a spiritual war, and
only spiritual weapons will guarantee success. And we who are standing we
need to watch out that we should not fall.
>This work will be finished when the laity and the ministers join hands
together and sound the trumpet.
>
>Together, together! Together!
>
>Jeremiah ( I am not a pastor, or not yet)
>
>
>
>>>> "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za> 10/20 4:40 AM >>>
>From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
>
>Jerry,
>
>We do "need each other", but for what? Unless roles and
>responsibilities, accompanied with prayer, willingness, sacrifice and
>commitment, are clearly defined then we will continue to be in limbo.
>We need proper support systems to enhance and consolidate this "needing
>each other".
>
>A straight answer to the question, yes we need God-fearing, committed
>and dedicated pastors for evangelism and soul nurturing.
>
>"Watch and pray".
>
>Andrew
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:23:22 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Disc: Topics
Friends,
Here is the list of topics that I have received so far, please make you vote, as you can see very few people have responded, so the choices do not reflect the wishes of the masses.
The Gospel Commission 2
History of the SDA Church in Southern Africa 2
Nature of Christ 2
Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa 2
Salvation (all the phases) 1
Christian church in general 1
History of Adventism 1
Eschatology 1
Crisis in Adventism 1
Power struggle in the church 1
Prayer and Fasting 1
Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa 2
Open Week 0
Testimonies Week 0
Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa,
This topic has been dealt with extensively under the theme TOC/TC merger. I will advise new member to go to the Masabatha Online archives (www.masabatha.org) and familiarize themselves with the issues discussed. I don't see as going back to this issue in the new future, unless there is a popular demand from the masses.
History of the SDA Church in Southern Africa
Somebody needs to do research on this subject, otherwise it will be very difficult to discuss it. Any volunteers?
Wait and murmur not!
Jeremiah
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:31:45 -0700
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Jongimpi
I couldn't agree more. In fact, I raised this issue sometime ago on this
very site and I termed it 'sanctifying administration.' You have excellent
preachers and evangelists tied down to administration work in the office,
and with respect, sometimes which they are not very well equipped to handle.
My question was then and still is, why not get professional administrators,
suitably qualified and equipped to run whatever portfolio there is in the
office than put good man into a wrong track which makes them eventually
wrong? Our top preachers are forever chasing unending demands of the office
and little attention to the core business is done. In the corporate world
they will ask you, what is your core business? Administration is a support
function and therefore business principle says you do not invest in the
support function more than you would invest in your core business. I feel
really passionate about this and I wish someone out there could do something
about it.
Ps Letseli made a point very well that you would still need the carriers of
the Adventist ethos and spiritual guides in your administration. To this, I
responded, yes, you may prescribe for instance that your President must be a
Pastor for this purpose. Like a Chairman in the Board of Directors, he/she
need not be an expert in the business field of the corporation he/she
presides over. However, for Treasury you need commercial skill more than
you need an Adventist ethos. The figures must just balance and sound
auditing practices must be in place etc. When you are a Secretary, you are
a Human Resource Manager and if you terminate people unlawfully, the CCMA
will be all over you. This time, it's not the ethos, it's ability to
interpret the Labour Relations Act and to apply correct procedures.
May we revisit this? We get dragged into the media sometimes and we need
politically sensitive approach. You see the list is endless. From the SAU,
this must be the practice, in fact from GC, although from both of these
structures, the practice of getting suitably qualified people is practiced.
Anywhere with Jesus I can safely go
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
>Friends
>Andrew and Jerry make two interesting remarks on this subject. Somewhere
>Andrews laments the fact that they did not take the decision early enough
to
>work as if they have no pastor, his remark is that had they done this,they
>would have achieved a lot. that is a mouth full.
>
>Jerry observes, correctly that, churches that do not have pastors over them
>tend to grow very fast. Ellen White seems to be making a similar
>observation when she says, "The churches are dying and they want a minister
>to preach to them. They should be taught to bring a faithful tithe to
God,
>that HE may strengthen and bless them: they should be brought into working
>order, that the breath of God may come to them. They should be taught
that
>unless they can stand alone without a minister, they need to be converted
>anew, and baptised anew. They need to be born again." Evangelism, 381
>
>Maybe we do need pastors as most of us have observed, but the role needs to
>be aligned to our mission. It is very difficult to the modern pastor to
>fulfil all that is expected of him by the members, this may lead to a lot
of
>frustration, both by the pastor and the members. But even the so called
>good pastor, may actually find himself blocking the progress of the church,
>especially when the church comes to depend on him, since he is so good.
>Maybe we need to have 1 pastor for every 20-30 churches, to help the
>churches realise that the pastor cannot be everything to all of them.
>
>It is noted that in the 1870's, it took two pastors to plant one church,
but
>in the 1990s it took 122 pastors to raise a church(Ministry Magazine -
>October 1999)
>
>Indeed Every Believer is a Minister, so Jerry my friend you are a minister
>both by qualification and practise.
>
>Jongimpi
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:56 PM
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
>
>
>>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>
>>Andrew wrote:
>>>> " God-fearing, committed and dedicated pastors"?
>>
>>I sense some frustrations here.
>>Let us remember that pastors are men like us. Are we God-fearing,
committed
>and dedicated members?
>>E.G White wrote: "Do not place the minister where God should be. The
>minister of Christ is like other men. True, he bears sacred
>responsibilities, but he is not infallible." The Youth's Instructor,
>February 15, 1900, paragraph 6
>>
>>>> "For evangelism and soul nurturing."
>>
>>I think this is where most of us go wrong. The great commission is given
to
>all of us (I am tempted to say equally). All of us have the responsibility
>to do the work of evangelism, and through love, to nurture new souls. Let's
>get this straight, it is just as our responsibility as the pastor's. How
can
>we expect a pastor, who has 8 churches, to focus on evangelism on any of
the
>churches? Or to nurture souls that he sees once every three months?
>>There is a mentality in many of our churches that if the pastor does not
>initiate evangelist project nothing will be done. I don't need a pastor to
>tell me to witness in my community. I don't need a pastor to tell me to
love
>my fellow church member. As I have said yesterday I do need a pastor to
>train me on how to preach, how to conduct Bible studies, etc. Let's ask
>(demand) our pastors or conference officials to train us , I don't think
>they can refuse, let me say that the few times I tried they have never
>refused. However, evangelism is what I have been called to do. As long as I
>have a Bible in my hand and can preach the good news, I do not need a
>pastor. I think we need to stop complaining about pastors (I know it is
>easy) and start doing the work. Pastors who are lazy or uncommitted will
>have to give an account to God and we just have to do our part. May be the
>pastor will repent when he sees us been faithful to our calling. May be you
>are the only Christ that the "uncommitted past
>> or" will ever meet (th
>>E. G White wrote: "When we follow plans of the Lord's devising, we are
>"laborers together with God." Whatever our position,-- whether presidents
>>of conferences, ministers, teachers, students, or lay members,--we are
held
>accountable by the Lord for making the most of our opportunities to
>enlighten those in need of present truth"
>>Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. 86
>>
>>>> "... We will continue to be in limbo"
>>
>>This should never be. The church of God should never rely on mortal man to
>do its mission. In fact, research tells us that the fastest growing
churches
>are the ones without pastors. The church that is in limbo must arise before
>it is too late.
>>Many of us do not realize that we have been called to be crusaders. Our
>church manual states that the first item on each church board should be
>evangelism, how many of you elders out there know or follow this?
>>
>>>> "Unless roles and responsibilities *"
>>
>>Whose roles? Does the membership know their roles? Who assigns roles? Is
it
>God or man? We must remember the pasturing is a calling not so much an
>employment. And all of us a called to different roles.
>>Having said all of that I will be the first to admit that I have been
>frustrated many times by pastors, but an uncommitted pastor can never stop
>me (or the church) from doing God's work. If you are interested I can give
>you some interesting experiences.
>>
>>>>We do "need each other", but for what?
>>
>>For the purpose of completing the work of the gospel.
>>We are the body of Christ. The head needs the hands as much as the ears
>need the legs. Instead of been so critical of one another, let us pray for
>each other. Pray for the "uncommitted" pastor. This is a spiritual war, and
>only spiritual weapons will guarantee success. And we who are standing we
>need to watch out that we should not fall.
>>This work will be finished when the laity and the ministers join hands
>together and sound the trumpet.
>>
>>Together, together! Together!
>>
>>Jeremiah ( I am not a pastor, or not yet)
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za> 10/20 4:40 AM >>>
>>From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
>>
>>Jerry,
>>
>>We do "need each other", but for what? Unless roles and
>>responsibilities, accompanied with prayer, willingness, sacrifice and
>>commitment, are clearly defined then we will continue to be in limbo.
>>We need proper support systems to enhance and consolidate this "needing
>>each other".
>>
>>A straight answer to the question, yes we need God-fearing, committed
>>and dedicated pastors for evangelism and soul nurturing.
>>
>>"Watch and pray".
>>
>>Andrew
>>
>>>The King is even at the door!
>>====
>>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:18:07 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Do we still need Pastors?
Brethren and Sisteren,
Pardon me for adopting the I.M Buwa type of greeting.
The story of pastors being onlookers does not auger well for the general
membership. I am unable to accept the fact that the pastor/evangelist (what
is the difference betwen these two words) should simply keep on looking when
the larger body of lay people is busy fostering the work out in the field. I
think this is what Andrew was trying to make in his response. Where I am
there are many spectator pastors. Yes the churches are growing where the lay
members have taken the job on their shoulders without the pastos assistance,
but even in those other churches where one supposes the pastor spends his
time the church is not not growing either. So what are they doing? Preach
during the divine service, conduct communion service, conduct elections and
a bit of study with the church. What about the second part of working as
co-labourers with the laity in the job of looking for the lost sheep?
By the way our pastors have the whole week preparing to pray, visit and
administer to the flock. Once we can begin to count the visits pastors make
to their parishioners you will be surprised to discover that there is less
that is done. Thus I agree that some form of a performance appraisal needs
to be put in place quickly to motivate, promote and demote accordingly.
Lastly, there are guidelines on birth control voted by the Annual Council at
the GC on 29 September 1999. One intersting issue that arises concerns
abortion. They just make a blanket statement to the effect that abortion is
not morally for purposes of birth control. I accept the statement fully. All
I am asking is whether our church does not have specific guidelines
regarding exceptions regarding the question of when one may abort.
God bless you all.
Nick
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:33:15 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: Do we still need Pastors?
Nick wrote:
>>Lastly, there are guidelines on birth control voted by the Annual Council at
>>the GC on 29 September 1999. One intersting issue that arises concerns
>>abortion. They just make a blanket statement to the effect that abortion is
>>not morally for purposes of birth control. I accept the statement fully. All
>>I am asking is whether our church does not have specific guidelines
>>regarding exceptions regarding the question of when one may abort.
Do you want to suggest 'Abortion and/or birth control' as one of the topics to be discussed in the future?
He will come!
Jeremiah
>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com> 10/21 11:18 AM >>>
Brethren and Sisteren,
Pardon me for adopting the I.M Buwa type of greeting.
The story of pastors being onlookers does not auger well for the general
membership. I am unable to accept the fact that the pastor/evangelist (what
is the difference betwen these two words) should simply keep on looking when
the larger body of lay people is busy fostering the work out in the field. I
think this is what Andrew was trying to make in his response. Where I am
there are many spectator pastors. Yes the churches are growing where the lay
members have taken the job on their shoulders without the pastos assistance,
but even in those other churches where one supposes the pastor spends his
time the church is not not growing either. So what are they doing? Preach
during the divine service, conduct communion service, conduct elections and
a bit of study with the church. What about the second part of working as
co-labourers with the laity in the job of looking for the lost sheep?
By the way our pastors have the whole week preparing to pray, visit and
administer to the flock. Once we can begin to count the visits pastors make
to their parishioners you will be surprised to discover that there is less
that is done. Thus I agree that some form of a performance appraisal needs
to be put in place quickly to motivate, promote and demote accordingly.
Lastly, there are guidelines on birth control voted by the Annual Council at
the GC on 29 September 1999. One intersting issue that arises concerns
abortion. They just make a blanket statement to the effect that abortion is
not morally for purposes of birth control. I accept the statement fully. All
I am asking is whether our church does not have specific guidelines
regarding exceptions regarding the question of when one may abort.
God bless you all.
Nick
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:51:54 +0200
From: <jbvanyaza@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re[2]: Do we still need Pastors?
Nick,
If I understand your request correctly i.e. "All I am asking is whether our
church does not have specific guidelines regarding exceptions regarding the
question of when one may abort", you acknowledge a possibility whereby in
certain situations we as Adventist might be allowed by God to terminate life.
.
Jer:1:5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest
forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the
nations.
Jeremaiah had an identity before he was formed in his mothers womb. God knew who
he was. God had a purpose for him. He had plans lined up for Jremaiah.
The question is it for us humanbeings to interfere those plans.
Maybe we can discuss this sometime.
God bless us with wisdom.
Justice
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
Author: <sa-sda@onelist.com> at INTERNET
Date: 21/10/1999 5:18 PM
Brethren and Sisteren,
Pardon me for adopting the I.M Buwa type of greeting.
The story of pastors being onlookers does not auger well for the general
membership. I am unable to accept the fact that the pastor/evangelist (what
is the difference betwen these two words) should simply keep on looking when
the larger body of lay people is busy fostering the work out in the field. I
think this is what Andrew was trying to make in his response. Where I am
there are many spectator pastors. Yes the churches are growing where the lay
members have taken the job on their shoulders without the pastos assistance,
but even in those other churches where one supposes the pastor spends his
time the church is not not growing either. So what are they doing? Preach
during the divine service, conduct communion service, conduct elections and
a bit of study with the church. What about the second part of working as
co-labourers with the laity in the job of looking for the lost sheep?
By the way our pastors have the whole week preparing to pray, visit and
administer to the flock. Once we can begin to count the visits pastors make
to their parishioners you will be surprised to discover that there is less
that is done. Thus I agree that some form of a performance appraisal needs
to be put in place quickly to motivate, promote and demote accordingly.
Lastly, there are guidelines on birth control voted by the Annual Council at
the GC on 29 September 1999. One intersting issue that arises concerns
abortion. They just make a blanket statement to the effect that abortion is
not morally for purposes of birth control. I accept the statement fully. All
I am asking is whether our church does not have specific guidelines
regarding exceptions regarding the question of when one may abort.
God bless you all.
Nick
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:22:18 PDT
From: "kebogile mokwena" <kmokwena@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Disc: Topics
Hi Everybody
Because of work pressures,I have not been able to contribute to these
discussions as I would like to.But I have been able to read most of them and
the opinions are very interesting. I hope things change so that I can be
able to contribute more, although I agree that I can never outshine Jongimpi
and Jerry (not that I would even try)On the various topics, I vote for
crisis in Adventism
Dr Kebogile Mokwena
Senior lecturer, Dept of Social and Behavioural Health Sciences,
NSPH@Medunsa
Tel:012 521-4613/8
Fax:012 560-0172
Have a lovely day
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:51:49 +2
From: "Lulama R. Zantsi" <wels124@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Are the dead really dead?
Beloved,
Of course, one realizes that this is the last day for general
discussions.
The English adage goes:"Actions speak louder than words". It's one
thing to know, it's another to apply or even live a belief for that
matter.
The question of the State of the Dead seems to be a mind-boggling
issue. SDA's dearly hold on to the truth that the dead know not
anything, at least theoretically. But do we really believe that? Our
funerals are characterized by some tendencies that seem to state the
opposite. For example, we attach special significance to the
deceased's favourite hymn/song and utilize it as the theme song for
the funeral. In one instance, the deceased's valuables were thrown
into the grave on top of the coffin. One must have witnessed many
instances were the actual programs for the event would be thrown into
the grave as well. Not to mention the abundance or proliferation of
memorial services - to remember and honour the dead. In church, we
would rise in honour when the coffin and bereaved family enter and
leave the holy place. One Pastor-friend of mine even proposed that
such an honour would befit a Pathfinder approaching the watery grave
of baptism!. During the Pentecost "98 baptisms, one local Pastor did
just. Not to mention the new/beautiful clothes, expensive
casket/coffin, the three-course or more meal(s). In fact, sometimes
the delicacies of the funeral would far outdo and outshine the
graduation party. The crowning act would be the inscription on the
tombstone:"Rest in Peace" (addresses to the dead?)
One is not expressing a viewpoint against decent burial for the
beloved deceased.I probably need such too. But somehow these
tendencies have the cumulative effect of begging the question:"Are
the dead really dead?" Is it a question of theory versus practice or
the talk versus the walk or absolute vs relative? Or perhaps, none of
the above? What do others feel out there? God bless.
To know Him and make Him known.
Lulama
willing to learn
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:52:51 +0200
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Disc: Topics
Mashudu Ravhengani wrote:
> Friends,
>
> Here is the list of topics that I have received so far, please make you vote, as you can see very few people have responded, so the choices do not reflect the wishes of the masses.
>
How are we suppossed to make the vote? How many votes does each person have?
Alvin.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:22:21 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Disc: Topics
Jerry,
What is eschatology? Please break it down for me and others who may
not have an idea.
Lungani
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 10/21/99 04:23PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Friends,
Here is the list of topics that I have received so far, please make you
vote, as you can see very few people have responded, so the choices do
not reflect the wishes of the masses.
The Gospel Commission
2
History of the SDA Church in Southern Africa
2
Nature of Christ
2
Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa 2
Salvation (all the phases)
1
Christian church in general
1
History of Adventism
1
Eschatology
1
Crisis in Adventism
1
Power struggle in the church
1
Prayer and Fasting
1
Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa 2
Open Week
0
Testimonies Week
0
Human relationships among Adventists in South Africa,
This topic has been dealt with extensively under the theme TOC/TC
merger. I will advise new member to go to the Masabatha Online archives
(www.masabatha.org) and familiarize themselves with the issues
discussed. I don't see as going back to this issue in the new future,
unless there is a popular demand from the masses.
History of the SDA Church in Southern Africa
Somebody needs to do research on this subject, otherwise it will be
very difficult to discuss it. Any volunteers?
Wait and murmur not!
Jeremiah
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:34:14 +0200
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Eschatology..
> What is eschatology? Please break it down for me and others who may
> not have an idea.
>
I am not a theologian but eschatology is the doctrine of end time events in
connection with the second coming of Christ and the end of the world i.e.
judgement, heaven, hell etc.
Different denominations and christians have different views to it and ours
(Adventists) is also very unique.
Alvin.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:44:46 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Dear Friends,
I believe that this discussion will end - some day, even though it
seems a very interesting issue to deliberate on.
I would like to say a thing or two in response to the question asked -
" Do we still need pastors in our church?"
I believe that all of us are called to spread the word to every hill
and valley - leaving no stone unturned not turn unstoned. But this does
not dictate a stereotypical means of meeting the ends.
Firstly, as it was mentioned before the term pastor means shepard -
shepard of the sheep in the fold. This to me means that this human
being is put here for the feeding of the sheep in the fold, making sure
that they get all they will need to end up looking like a well fed
flock.
I believe that this is what pastors are meant to do as well, taking
care of the church members. Leading them heavenward.
This has a great influence on evangelism as well. A good pastor, able
enough to let his congregation see Christ for who He is, sows more seeds
in his church members that germinate elsewhere. Just as a good parent
would attract more visitors and resident visitors, so can a good pastor
evangelize in his community. He can make people wish to be part of his
congregation - applying for adoption - just like neighboring children
would wish to be members of a loving family next door of up the hill.
Secondly, Christ called not only the eloquent Peters and missionary
Phillips but there also were the quite, loving and caring Andrews. We
all in our diversity are called to labour in Gods vineyard. Remember
the part where Christ told his disciples that they did not choose Him
but He actually called them to bear fruits? We all are called to
reflect his life and love to both those who know Him and those who know
Him not - yes, but some of us can only be able to attract those who are
similar to them. Will I be wrong when I say that what can attract a
person would be seeing someone just like him following Christ? Or lets
say, someone who once was just like him - Christ. I remember the person
who made me become a pastor - he was a guy who had a weakness like mine
before he became a pastor. When I saw him making it I was sure that
there was hope for me too. Birds of like furthers do sometimes flock
together.
We have been chanelled to believe that evangelism is preaching in tents
and traveling miles to distant land converting heathens to a better
light - but there are those next to us whose love for Christ has grown
blunt and dim. Some for whom Christ love has remained an old irrelevant
story. A smile, a gift, a prayer, a plate of food, a payment of a
burdensome bill, you name them, can be the best sermon and bible study
ever held.
What am I saying? I don't think it is not obvious that I believe that
we still need pastors - I aslo do not want to critisize and analyze our
pastoral behaviour - it won't help, we all know about it. But more,
pastors are meant to take care of the sheep. Pastoring and evangelism
are mutually inclusive but not in our dictated terms. When I need
spiritual guidance I want to know that there is a man of God who can
lead me to a better light. This can help me go out and tell more how my
spiritual problem was sorted out and how much more I love God. Remember
the woman at the well? Isn't that evangelism?
I just want to know him...
Lungani
>>> "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> 10/22/99 01:31AM >>>
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
Jongimpi
I couldn't agree more. In fact, I raised this issue sometime ago on
this
very site and I termed it 'sanctifying administration.' You have
excellent
preachers and evangelists tied down to administration work in the
office,
and with respect, sometimes which they are not very well equipped to
handle.
My question was then and still is, why not get professional
administrators,
suitably qualified and equipped to run whatever portfolio there is in
the
office than put good man into a wrong track which makes them
eventually
wrong? Our top preachers are forever chasing unending demands of the
office
and little attention to the core business is done. In the corporate
world
they will ask you, what is your core business? Administration is a
support
function and therefore business principle says you do not invest in
the
support function more than you would invest in your core business. I
feel
really passionate about this and I wish someone out there could do
something
about it.
Ps Letseli made a point very well that you would still need the
carriers of
the Adventist ethos and spiritual guides in your administration. To
this, I
responded, yes, you may prescribe for instance that your President must
be a
Pastor for this purpose. Like a Chairman in the Board of Directors,
he/she
need not be an expert in the business field of the corporation he/she
presides over. However, for Treasury you need commercial skill more
than
you need an Adventist ethos. The figures must just balance and
sound
auditing practices must be in place etc. When you are a Secretary, you
are
a Human Resource Manager and if you terminate people unlawfully, the
CCMA
will be all over you. This time, it's not the ethos, it's ability to
interpret the Labour Relations Act and to apply correct procedures.
May we revisit this? We get dragged into the media sometimes and we
need
politically sensitive approach. You see the list is endless. From the
SAU,
this must be the practice, in fact from GC, although from both of
these
structures, the practice of getting suitably qualified people is
practiced.
Anywhere with Jesus I can safely go
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
>Friends
>Andrew and Jerry make two interesting remarks on this subject.
Somewhere
>Andrews laments the fact that they did not take the decision early
enough
to
>work as if they have no pastor, his remark is that had they done
this,they
>would have achieved a lot. that is a mouth full.
>
>Jerry observes, correctly that, churches that do not have pastors over
them
>tend to grow very fast. Ellen White seems to be making a similar
>observation when she says, "The churches are dying and they want a
minister
>to preach to them. They should be taught to bring a faithful tithe
to
God,
>that HE may strengthen and bless them: they should be brought into
working
>order, that the breath of God may come to them. They should be
taught
that
>unless they can stand alone without a minister, they need to be
converted
>anew, and baptised anew. They need to be born again." Evangelism,
381
>
>Maybe we do need pastors as most of us have observed, but the role
needs to
>be aligned to our mission. It is very difficult to the modern pastor
to
>fulfil all that is expected of him by the members, this may lead to a
lot
of
>frustration, both by the pastor and the members. But even the so
called
>good pastor, may actually find himself blocking the progress of the
church,
>especially when the church comes to depend on him, since he is so
good.
>Maybe we need to have 1 pastor for every 20-30 churches, to help the
>churches realise that the pastor cannot be everything to all of them.
>
>It is noted that in the 1870's, it took two pastors to plant one
church,
but
>in the 1990s it took 122 pastors to raise a church(Ministry Magazine
-
>October 1999)
>
>Indeed Every Believer is a Minister, so Jerry my friend you are a
minister
>both by qualification and practise.
>
>Jongimpi
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:56 PM
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
>
>
>>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>
>>Andrew wrote:
>>>> " God-fearing, committed and dedicated pastors"?
>>
>>I sense some frustrations here.
>>Let us remember that pastors are men like us. Are we God-fearing,
committed
>and dedicated members?
>>E.G White wrote: "Do not place the minister where God should be. The
>minister of Christ is like other men. True, he bears sacred
>responsibilities, but he is not infallible." The Youth's Instructor,
>February 15, 1900, paragraph 6
>>
>>>> "For evangelism and soul nurturing."
>>
>>I think this is where most of us go wrong. The great commission is
given
to
>all of us (I am tempted to say equally). All of us have the
responsibility
>to do the work of evangelism, and through love, to nurture new souls.
Let's
>get this straight, it is just as our responsibility as the pastor's.
How
can
>we expect a pastor, who has 8 churches, to focus on evangelism on any
of
the
>churches? Or to nurture souls that he sees once every three months?
>>There is a mentality in many of our churches that if the pastor does
not
>initiate evangelist project nothing will be done. I don't need a
pastor to
>tell me to witness in my community. I don't need a pastor to tell me
to
love
>my fellow church member. As I have said yesterday I do need a pastor
to
>train me on how to preach, how to conduct Bible studies, etc. Let's
ask
>(demand) our pastors or conference officials to train us , I don't
think
>they can refuse, let me say that the few times I tried they have
never
>refused. However, evangelism is what I have been called to do. As long
as I
>have a Bible in my hand and can preach the good news, I do not need a
>pastor. I think we need to stop complaining about pastors (I know it
is
>easy) and start doing the work. Pastors who are lazy or uncommitted
will
>have to give an account to God and we just have to do our part. May be
the
>pastor will repent when he sees us been faithful to our calling. May
be you
>are the only Christ that the "uncommitted past
>> or" will ever meet (th
>>E. G White wrote: "When we follow plans of the Lord's devising, we
are
>"laborers together with God." Whatever our position,-- whether
presidents
>>of conferences, ministers, teachers, students, or lay members,--we
are
held
>accountable by the Lord for making the most of our opportunities to
>enlighten those in need of present truth"
>>Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. 86
>>
>>>> "... We will continue to be in limbo"
>>
>>This should never be. The church of God should never rely on mortal
man to
>do its mission. In fact, research tells us that the fastest growing
churches
>are the ones without pastors. The church that is in limbo must arise
before
>it is too late.
>>Many of us do not realize that we have been called to be crusaders.
Our
>church manual states that the first item on each church board should
be
>evangelism, how many of you elders out there know or follow this?
>>
>>>> "Unless roles and responsibilities *"
>>
>>Whose roles? Does the membership know their roles? Who assigns roles?
Is
it
>God or man? We must remember the pasturing is a calling not so much
an
>employment. And all of us a called to different roles.
>>Having said all of that I will be the first to admit that I have
been
>frustrated many times by pastors, but an uncommitted pastor can never
stop
>me (or the church) from doing God's work. If you are interested I can
give
>you some interesting experiences.
>>
>>>>We do "need each other", but for what?
>>
>>For the purpose of completing the work of the gospel.
>>We are the body of Christ. The head needs the hands as much as the
ears
>need the legs. Instead of been so critical of one another, let us pray
for
>each other. Pray for the "uncommitted" pastor. This is a spiritual
war, and
>only spiritual weapons will guarantee success. And we who are standing
we
>need to watch out that we should not fall.
>>This work will be finished when the laity and the ministers join
hands
>together and sound the trumpet.
>>
>>Together, together! Together!
>>
>>Jeremiah ( I am not a pastor, or not yet)
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za> 10/20 4:40 AM >>>
>>From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
>>
>>Jerry,
>>
>>We do "need each other", but for what? Unless roles and
>>responsibilities, accompanied with prayer, willingness, sacrifice
and
>>commitment, are clearly defined then we will continue to be in
limbo.
>>We need proper support systems to enhance and consolidate this
"needing
>>each other".
>>
>>A straight answer to the question, yes we need God-fearing,
committed
>>and dedicated pastors for evangelism and soul nurturing.
>>
>>"Watch and pray".
>>
>>Andrew
>>
>>>The King is even at the door!
>>====
>>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
sa-sda@onelist.com
>>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
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_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:21:38 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Are the dead really dead?
Lulama my Friend
Long time no see. You have raised a good point, I do not think that we will
have enough time to deliberate on this, since it is already Friday. The
dead are really dead and I am sure we believe that. Our problem is that
of consistency between what we believe and what we practise. We have not
yet given ourselves time to reflect critically on some of the practises that
we have imbibed from our surroundings and also carried from our former
beliefs. Indeed the rationale behind some of these practises leaves a lot
to be desired. I know at times we hide behind culture, and that animal
culture has many faces, and seems to fit anywhere. I remember in one
wedding, the bride/groom and the entourage, came in dancing to Brenda
Fassie's music, when asked,they said it is our culture.
As indicated above, we will need more time for this, let us have it also as
a topic to be discussed what do you think? We might just broaden it to
include many such practises that seems to contradict our beliefs. In the
meantime, just a slight twist on the topic, Why should the dead remain dead?
The answer to this, I think will give us what I can call the good news about
death and the dead. I still regard death as an enemy, but remember God can
bring good even out of death.
God is good
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Lulama R. Zantsi <wels124@welspta.pwv.gov.za>
To: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>; sa-sda@onelist.com
<sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 7:54 AM
Subject: [sa-sda] Are the dead really dead?
>From: "Lulama R. Zantsi" <wels124@welspta.pwv.gov.za>
>
>Beloved,>
>Of course, one realizes that this is the last day for general
>discussions.
>
>The English adage goes:"Actions speak louder than words". It's one
>thing to know, it's another to apply or even live a belief for that
>matter.
>
>The question of the State of the Dead seems to be a mind-boggling
>issue. SDA's dearly hold on to the truth that the dead know not
>anything, at least theoretically. But do we really believe that? Our
>funerals are characterized by some tendencies that seem to state the
>opposite. For example, we attach special significance to the
>deceased's favourite hymn/song and utilize it as the theme song for
>the funeral. In one instance, the deceased's valuables were thrown
>into the grave on top of the coffin. One must have witnessed many
>instances were the actual programs for the event would be thrown into
>the grave as well. Not to mention the abundance or proliferation of
>memorial services - to remember and honour the dead. In church, we
>would rise in honour when the coffin and bereaved family enter and
>leave the holy place. One Pastor-friend of mine even proposed that
>such an honour would befit a Pathfinder approaching the watery grave
>of baptism!. During the Pentecost "98 baptisms, one local Pastor did
>just. Not to mention the new/beautiful clothes, expensive
>casket/coffin, the three-course or more meal(s). In fact, sometimes
>the delicacies of the funeral would far outdo and outshine the
>graduation party. The crowning act would be the inscription on the
>tombstone:"Rest in Peace" (addresses to the dead?)
>
>One is not expressing a viewpoint against decent burial for the
>beloved deceased.I probably need such too. But somehow these
>tendencies have the cumulative effect of begging the question:"Are
>the dead really dead?" Is it a question of theory versus practice or
>the talk versus the walk or absolute vs relative? Or perhaps, none of
>the above? What do others feel out there? God bless.
>
>To know Him and make Him known.
>
>Lulama
>willing to learn
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:55:48 +0200
From: Fairbridge Dlamini <dlaminif@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: Are the dead really dead?
Friends
Jongimpi wrote,
As indicated above, we will need more time for this, let us have it
also as
a topic to be discussed what do you think? We might just broaden
it to
include many such practises that seems to contradict our beliefs.
Does this then mean that we suspend deliberations on this topic. I do really
hope that it come again in its broaden format.
In the meantime, just a slight twist on the topic, Why should the
dead remain dead?
The answer to this, I think will give us what I can call the good
news about
death and the dead. I still regard death as an enemy, but remember
God can
bring good even out of death.
My good pastor you have lost me here would you please clarify.
His coming is sooner than when we first believed.
Mdu
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [SMTP:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: 22 October 1999 10:22
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Are the dead really dead?
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Lulama my Friend
Long time no see. You have raised a good point, I do not think that
we will
have enough time to deliberate on this, since it is already Friday.
The
dead are really dead and I am sure we believe that. Our problem
is that
of consistency between what we believe and what we practise. We
have not
yet given ourselves time to reflect critically on some of the
practises that
we have imbibed from our surroundings and also carried from our
former
beliefs. Indeed the rationale behind some of these practises leaves
a lot
to be desired. I know at times we hide behind culture, and that
animal
culture has many faces, and seems to fit anywhere. I remember in
one
wedding, the bride/groom and the entourage, came in dancing to
Brenda
Fassie's music, when asked,they said it is our culture.
As indicated above, we will need more time for this, let us have it
also as
a topic to be discussed what do you think? We might just broaden
it to
include many such practises that seems to contradict our beliefs.
In the
meantime, just a slight twist on the topic, Why should the dead
remain dead?
The answer to this, I think will give us what I can call the good
news about
death and the dead. I still regard death as an enemy, but remember
God can
bring good even out of death.
God is good
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Lulama R. Zantsi <wels124@welspta.pwv.gov.za>
To: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>; sa-sda@onelist.com
<sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 7:54 AM
Subject: [sa-sda] Are the dead really dead?
>From: "Lulama R. Zantsi" <wels124@welspta.pwv.gov.za>
>
>Beloved,>
>Of course, one realizes that this is the last day for general
>discussions.
>
>The English adage goes:"Actions speak louder than words". It's one
>thing to know, it's another to apply or even live a belief for that
>matter.
>
>The question of the State of the Dead seems to be a mind-boggling
>issue. SDA's dearly hold on to the truth that the dead know not
>anything, at least theoretically. But do we really believe that?
Our
>funerals are characterized by some tendencies that seem to state
the
>opposite. For example, we attach special significance to the
>deceased's favourite hymn/song and utilize it as the theme song for
>the funeral. In one instance, the deceased's valuables were thrown
>into the grave on top of the coffin. One must have witnessed many
>instances were the actual programs for the event would be thrown
into
>the grave as well. Not to mention the abundance or proliferation of
>memorial services - to remember and honour the dead. In church, we
>would rise in honour when the coffin and bereaved family enter and
>leave the holy place. One Pastor-friend of mine even proposed that
>such an honour would befit a Pathfinder approaching the watery
grave
>of baptism!. During the Pentecost "98 baptisms, one local Pastor
did
>just. Not to mention the new/beautiful clothes, expensive
>casket/coffin, the three-course or more meal(s). In fact, sometimes
>the delicacies of the funeral would far outdo and outshine the
>graduation party. The crowning act would be the inscription on the
>tombstone:"Rest in Peace" (addresses to the dead?)
>
>One is not expressing a viewpoint against decent burial for the
>beloved deceased.I probably need such too. But somehow these
>tendencies have the cumulative effect of begging the question:"Are
>the dead really dead?" Is it a question of theory versus practice
or
>the talk versus the walk or absolute vs relative? Or perhaps, none
of
>the above? What do others feel out there? God bless.
>
>To know Him and make Him known.
>
>Lulama
>willing to learn
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
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The King is even at the door!
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