Digest 65, originally sent Thu Oct 21 07:36:12 1999
There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Re: Introduction
From: "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@xxxx.xx.xxx
2. Introduction
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
3. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
4. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
5. FW: nice sentiment
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
6. Cape Conference Clips
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 14:05:36 +0200
From: "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Re: Introduction
Hi Lungani --
I would probably know if we met if I saw you.
I started in 93..94.. 95..96
Of course I remember Jongimpi quite well.. he was doing his masters then.
(History of the doctrine of the Sabbath)
----- Original Message -----
From: Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 10:35 AM
Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Introduction
>From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
>
>Weiers,
>
>If you graduated in 96 you must have started in 92, I hope my
>arithemetic is correct. We sure must have met on campus 'cos I
>graduated in 92.
>
>May God bless you and your wife whilst labouring for his lost sheep.
>
>Good luck with your exams.
>
>Lungani
>
>>>> "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@mweb.co.za> 10/18/99 02:06PM >>>
>My name is Weiers
>
>I am a pastor in the Pietermaritzburg Area of Kwa Zulu Natal.
>
>I studied at Helderberg College (Graduated 1996)
>
>I am currently studying for a Theological Masters Degree in Leadership
>and Development at the University of Natal (Pietermaritzburg). The
>stress is rather high as exams are around the corner and assignment due
>dates are approaching. (This is the reason why I am mostly a silent
>member of the family)
>
>I got married three weeks ago... To Simone. She is currenlty working as
>an educational officer for the a NGO in Howick - "The Wildlife and
>Environment Society"... We are still in the honeymoon phase and that is
>another reason why I am generally silent online.
>
>-------
>My specific interests at the moment is the church and relevant social
>action. What are the possibilities and challenges for the future.
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:19:47 PDT
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Introduction
Hi Friends,
My name is Joshua Vusi Kaunda, I live in Klipspruit Ext 4 in Soweto. I am a
member at Orlando East SDA Church and at one time I was the Elder of the
Church for 3 years.
I am also a SDASA member and belong to many other organizations and
groupings in the church. I work for the American Consulate Public affairs
division and I run their resource center at Ipelegeng in White City Jabavu
in Soweto.
I spent most of my time developing my independent business which is
affiliated to Amway Corporation and I am divorced.
Thanks for listening, looking forward to submit my contribution to the forum
once more.
Vusi Kaunda
Information Resource Center
US Information Service
Ph 27 11 982 5580
Fx 27 11 982 5844
vusi12@hotmail.com
PO Box 1762
Houghton
2041
http://www.usia.gov/posts/pretoria
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:45:22 PDT
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Hi,
I am jumping into the wagon without prior booking here, It is clear to me
that we still need pastors regardless of the qualifications or skills that
we "layman" may possess.
A pastor as a sheperd and leader of the church is vital, I know that because
of the lack of depth most of the members have somehow felt that we may not
need pastors after all every adventist believer is a pastor or a minister
whatever way you put it.
Our church leadership in all areas is weak if not absent and that cannot be
blamed on the Pastors alone. I believe that membership with all their skills
should prayerfully come together with the ministry to remedy the apathy you
find in the Adventist church.
As I have said earlier, I did not read the contributions on this question, I
just responded, so I am now taking time to read and maybe will give a more
sane answer than this one.
God bless you all and let us hold the fort for He is coming.
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
>Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:36:30 +0200
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>
>Ramo
>Do not worry about the part of eldership, you are right you did not say
>that. The point I was trying to stress is that with guys like you and
>Andrew, do we still need to settle a pastor over our churches, by the way
>this is the point that is made in the article I referred to. I must also
>commend you and Andrew for taking the bold step, to even think of leaving
>your own established churches to start a new branch. I am sure we still
>need pioneers even today. If members are not willing as often is the case,
>to move from their comfort zones, and start new branches, it will be years
>before we finish this work.
>
>I am sure we will say more on this when we tackle the issue of the gospel
>commission, which I think should be one of the first subject we should
>discuss. Thanks for your comments.
>
>Every member a minister...
>
>Jongimpi
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 1:07 PM
>Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
>
>
>From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>
>Jongimpi,
>
>I often say things that I later realise I never meant to say, but the bit
>about being an elder at the yet to be established Midrand branch I'm sure I
>would not have said.
>
>About the need for pastors: I really do believe that there is still a place
>for them in our churches, even the established ones. Granted some churches
>are so organised that a pastor is more a 'nice to have' than an absolute
>necessity. Pastors of such churches should introduce the same kind of
>'self-sufficiency' in their other churches so that they can concentrate on
>that very important function that you mentioned, viz.. evangelism.
>
>I think it is a shame that there appears to be so little use of the skills
>of the layperson in the church for the church. A lot of time can be freed
>for the trained evangelist i.e. pastors by delegating the majority of their
>administrative duties, as well as the 'babysitting' ones, to skilled laity.
>After all, we're in this together.
>
>I realise that the above may do some damage to my objection to the
>eldership
>of the hypothetical branch in Midrand, but I am sure we can treat the two
>separately.
>
>Let's work, for the night is coming.
>
>Ramo
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
>Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 11:00
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
>
>
>Friends
>I was hoping that we will not spend the whole week introducing ourselves.
>Remember this is an open week, where we can raise any subject. Allow me to
>raise one that maybe a little sensitive.
>
>Do we really need Pastors, I mean pastors as in those who preach once a
>week
>and hold elections once a year, bury the dead and marry the saints?
>I am asking this question in light of the two articles that appeared in the
>October Issue of Ministry on the topic of church planting. The two authors
>seem to agree that pastors shoul
>Somewhere, it is noted that churches who still believe that they need a
>pastor to look after them, may be dying or have lost the vision of their
>mission. We know that churches in the end time will exist without pastors,
>I think, now is the best time to move toward that direction.
>
>Today our Pastors are anything between Counsellors and Builders but far
>from
>what they are supposed to be, that is, Evangelists. What is your take on
>this subject? Do you think that your church needs a Pastor. I know of a
>church that has three pastors looking after it. There has been a cry for
>more pastors, where bigger churches have expressed a need for a pastor they
>will not share with other churches. Maybe Andrew can help us here, for I
>understand they are planning to establish a branch in Midrand. I thought
>Ramo has indicated keen interest in being an elder or leader of the branch.
>
>Go Ye therefore...
>
>Jongimpi
>
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
><< text3.html >>
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:55:35 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Andrew wrote:
>> " God-fearing, committed and dedicated pastors"?
I sense some frustrations here.
Let us remember that pastors are men like us. Are we God-fearing, committed and dedicated members?
E.G White wrote: "Do not place the minister where God should be. The minister of Christ is like other men. True, he bears sacred responsibilities, but he is not infallible." The Youth's Instructor, February 15, 1900, paragraph 6
>> "For evangelism and soul nurturing."
I think this is where most of us go wrong. The great commission is given to all of us (I am tempted to say equally). All of us have the responsibility to do the work of evangelism, and through love, to nurture new souls. Let's get this straight, it is just as our responsibility as the pastor's. How can we expect a pastor, who has 8 churches, to focus on evangelism on any of the churches? Or to nurture souls that he sees once every three months?
There is a mentality in many of our churches that if the pastor does not initiate evangelist project nothing will be done. I don't need a pastor to tell me to witness in my community. I don't need a pastor to tell me to love my fellow church member. As I have said yesterday I do need a pastor to train me on how to preach, how to conduct Bible studies, etc. Let's ask (demand) our pastors or conference officials to train us , I don't think they can refuse, let me say that the few times I tried they have never refused. However, evangelism is what I have been called to do. As long as I have a Bible in my hand and can preach the good news, I do not need a pastor. I think we need to stop complaining about pastors (I know it is easy) and start doing the work. Pastors who are lazy or uncommitted will have to give an account to God and we just have to do our part. May be the pastor will repent when he sees us been faithful to our calling. May be you are the only Christ that the "uncommitted pastor" will ever meet (thanks to Lungani)
E. G White wrote: "When we follow plans of the Lord's devising, we are "laborers together with God." Whatever our position,-- whether presidents
of conferences, ministers, teachers, students, or lay members,--we are held accountable by the Lord for making the most of our opportunities to enlighten those in need of present truth"
Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. 86
>> "... We will continue to be in limbo"
This should never be. The church of God should never rely on mortal man to do its mission. In fact, research tells us that the fastest growing churches are the ones without pastors. The church that is in limbo must arise before it is too late.
Many of us do not realize that we have been called to be crusaders. Our church manual states that the first item on each church board should be evangelism, how many of you elders out there know or follow this?
>> "Unless roles and responsibilities *"
Whose roles? Does the membership know their roles? Who assigns roles? Is it God or man? We must remember the pasturing is a calling not so much an employment. And all of us a called to different roles.
Having said all of that I will be the first to admit that I have been frustrated many times by pastors, but an uncommitted pastor can never stop me (or the church) from doing God's work. If you are interested I can give you some interesting experiences.
>>We do "need each other", but for what?
For the purpose of completing the work of the gospel.
We are the body of Christ. The head needs the hands as much as the ears need the legs. Instead of been so critical of one another, let us pray for each other. Pray for the "uncommitted" pastor. This is a spiritual war, and only spiritual weapons will guarantee success. And we who are standing we need to watch out that we should not fall.
This work will be finished when the laity and the ministers join hands together and sound the trumpet.
Together, together! Together!
Jeremiah ( I am not a pastor, or not yet)
>>> "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za> 10/20 4:40 AM >>>
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Jerry,
We do "need each other", but for what? Unless roles and
responsibilities, accompanied with prayer, willingness, sacrifice and
commitment, are clearly defined then we will continue to be in limbo.
We need proper support systems to enhance and consolidate this "needing
each other".
A straight answer to the question, yes we need God-fearing, committed
and dedicated pastors for evangelism and soul nurturing.
"Watch and pray".
Andrew
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:36:56 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com>
Subject: FW: nice sentiment
Thought for the day.
Eleanor Roosevelt wrote:
Many people will walk in and out of your life,
But only true friends will leave footprints in your heart.
To handle yourself, use your head;
To handle others, use your heart.
Anger is only one letter short of danger.
If someone betrays you once, it is his fault;
If he betrays you twice, it is your fault.
Great minds discuss ideas;
Average minds discuss events;
Small minds discuss people.
He who loses money, loses much;
He, who loses a friend, loses much more;
He, who loses faith, loses all.
Beautiful young people are accidents of nature,
But beautiful old people are works of art.
Learn from the mistakes of others.
You can't live long enough to make them all yourself.
Friends, you and me....
You brought another friend....
And then there were 3....
We started our group....
Our circle of friends....
And like that circle....
There is no beginning or end....
Yesterday is history.
Tomorrow is mystery.
Today is a gift.
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:13:18 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Cape Conference Clips
In this issue:
NET NEW YORK
BIBLE DISCOVERY GROUP
ADVENTIST WOMEN'S MINISTRY RETREAT
ADRA - Western Cape
REQUEST - Tell us some GOOD NEWS about youth
NET NEW YORK
There have been some problems with the transmission with sound problems on Saturday, a break of 5 minutes on Sunday and then last night there was no transmission until 20:15. Last nights meeting (Wednesday) is going to be sent after the regular meeting on Friday night. Each church will decide when they will show that broadcast.
Please remember these meetings with your prayers and support your churches meetings.
Saturday 23 October: "The Law and The King"
Sunday 24 October: "Bricks without Straw"
Tuesday 26 October: "The Glorious Kingdom"
Wednesday 27 October: "The Witch of Endor"
Friday 29 October: "Cities of Ash"
BIBLE DISCOVERY GROUP
There are up to 40 people who have joined this group as a result of the campaign held in Somerset West by the Silverleaf Church presented by Prog Walter Veith. Please remember these people in your personal devotions.
ADVENTIST WOMEN'S MINISTRY RETREAT
Date: 29-31 October
Place: Western Cape College of education
Theme: The fellowship of the family
Speaker: Ardis Stenbakken, GC AWM Leader
Seminars: Sabbath afternoon and Sunday morning
For a copy of the program call: 8521140
ADRA - Western Cape (Carmen Steyn, Project Manager)
The ADRA-AusAid Literacy Project which lasted three years has finished but from this project further projects have grown.
The ADRA-Australia, Sakhisizwe Project, is a Small Enterprise Development project. So far it has issued 135 loans to people. Of the people who have received loans
The money paid back is put into a revolving loan fund within six months. Most of the money that is loaned is put into stock to sell. The people who have received loans have meat markets, fruit and vegetable markets, a dairy market, some are dressmakers who have bought second hand machines. others run SPAZA shops and among the group are herbalists, shoe repairs and even a picture framer. No one is able to receive a loan until they have successfully completed the 16 hour training course in Micro Business.
Another extension of the Literacy Project, the ADRA-AusAid Masibambisane
Project. Up to this point in time there are 725 people involved in this project. This includes training in beadwork where100 people are currently involved, training in sewing where there are15 full time, 40 part time participants, a two month training in leather work involving 15 people, vegetable gardening with 71 particpants and a projected 100, So far 364 people have completed the 16 hour intensive micro-business course with 450 projected as being trained. In this course the particpants learn costing, mark up's, profits and how to keep financial records. 90% of those participating are unemployed, the other 10% are mostly domestic workers.
Reading groups are carrying on with the literacy project and there are 378 people who meet together in small groups.
[Congratulations to the Project Manager and staff. What wonderful results!]
REQUEST - Tell us some GOOD NEWS about youth (Trudy Morgan-Cole)
I am a freelance writer working on a chapter for the new Youth Ministry
handbook that the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists is putting
together. This chapter deals with Youth Involvement--how youth are getting
involved in ministry and service in the church and the world.
Specifically, I am looking for examples of youth (teenagers) or young
adults (college aged) who are positively involved in either leadership or
service for God. These can be stories of either individuals or groups of
young people. I would like to have examples from several of our world
divisions, so if you know of any youth in your part of the world who are involved with the church and God's work in a positive way, please email me with the details within the next week or so. I will email you back if I need to know more. You can
also pass this email on to anyone you know who might be able to help.
This chapter will focus mainly on the positive, but we will also be looking
at reasons why youth are NOT as involved as they could/should be. If you
feel that youth in your area are NOT becoming involved in the church, or
not being given a chance to do so, and you have insight into why this is
happening, please feel free to share your thoughts on this.
My deadline for this chapter is the end of October, so if you can share
anything, I would appreciate hearing from you soon.
Thank you,
Trudy J. Morgan-Cole
tmorgan@calvin.stemnet.nf.ca
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shirley Allen
Cape Conference
Director of Youth, Children's Ministries, Sabbath School, Personal Ministries and Women's Ministries
PO Box 279
Somerset Wes
7129
Telephone: 021 852 1140
"Remember your Creator during your youth: when all possibilities lie open before you and you can offer all your strength intact for his service. "
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