Digest 64, originally sent Wed Oct 20 07:40:32 1999
There are 24 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: EVANGELISM TOOLS BROCHURE
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
2. RE: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
3. Re: Re: EVANGELISM TOOLS BROCHURE
From: <jbvanyaza@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
4. Re: Sermons and other Spiritual Food
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
5. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
6. Re: RE: Introduction
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
7. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
8. Introduction
From: Fairbridge Dlamini <dlaminif@xxxx.xx.xxx
9. Fwd: Introduction
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
10. Re: Introduction
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
11. Introduction
From: "pitso patrick" <pitsotsibs@xxxxxxx.xxxx
12. Re: Introduction
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
13. What do guests say about our site
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
14. Re: Important Admin Issues - HOUSEKEEPING
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
15. Re: What do guests say about our site
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
16. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
17. Re: Introduction
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
18. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
19. Re: Do we still need Pastors?
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
20. Re: Fwd: Introduction
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
21. Fw: ANN Bulletin: October 19, 1999
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
22. Doug Batchelor - Netny 99
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
23. Introduction/Justice,Bulungisa
From: <jbvanyaza@caltex.co.za>
24. Re: Doug Batchelor - Netny 99
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:51:51 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: EVANGELISM TOOLS BROCHURE
Friends,
Here is a message from Justice, It was sent to some members, I think we can all benefit or help
Justice, I hope you don't mind.
The King is coming!
Jeremiah
>>> <jbvanyaza@caltex.co.za> 10/19 7:15 AM >>>
Please help me, I am looking for any form of PC multimedia
presentations i.e. CD-ROM's,audio or video tapes of Adventist
sermons,seminars/conferences, lectures and music concerts.
I would appreciate if you can provide such information including info
,prices & free material(Brochure)
It brings me closer to God to listen to his word when driving(audio tape)
at home(video tape) or PC presentations then share these resources with
others(evangelism).
A non Adventist lady saw one of Elder Fitzhenry's tapes and ordered the
whole lot, she has now accepted Christ as her personal Savior and became
an Adventist.
Tapes are very POWERFUL evangelism tools, besides the way one carries
himself/herself in his/her community.
TOPICS OF INTEREST from an Adventist perspective.
1. Faith -
2. Discipleship - Cell group - Concept for evangelism
3. Counseling - various forms i.e. marriage, teenager problems
4. Sabbath observance Vs New Covenant Theology
5. Relationship with God
6. Spiritual gifts - Deliverance ministry,praying in tongues,healing
etc.
7. Latter rain of the Holy Spirit.
8. Christian character.
I am a new member of the SA-SDA mailing list, that explains the source for
your e-mail address. I will be introducing myself soon.
The Copeland Ministries(Faith & Prosperity), Creflo Dollar(Faith &
Prosperity), T.D.Jakes material is flooding the Cape Town Christian
bookstore market with their audio and video tapes, our material is nowhere
to be seen except in the most hidden place in Cape Town where we have our
Sentinel Publishing. We a lot of material which the average Adventist like
me does not have access to. The challenge is to make the material
accessible to all.
Alvin I am quite interested in learning webdesign, I fully support the
initiative to strive for the presence of our churches on the net.
It is high time that we market the word of God, run the church as a
business the only difference it that God is the shareholder and the profits
are the new converts. We can setup business units in our churches like
Counseling, and operate the existing ones like Stewardship & Temperance,
evangelism effectively by making them sure that they deliver profits which
will also be invested to acquire more profits.
Each BU staff member(church members) will be properly trained to meet all
the required service levels. We can make use of various professional skills
with the church, i.e. for marketing/advertising use someone with
advertising know how, for counseling use a psychologist/psychiatrist within
the church. Knowledge can be shared by a group of churches by arranging
seminars. It pains me to see that our churches are not growing and when
converts come in the soon go out, thus leaving the church.
Jeremaiah, I like your title of being the "Ambassador", It is my dream that
Gods Church be run like a business, use technology like
computers,radio,television all to maximize profits(converts).
If it were possible even the tapes should be freely available but due to
copyrigt laws this is not practical.
Takalani I remember you my dear brother, you use to travel all the way from
your campus to our Thembalethu church.
This is not a new idea to Adventists, we do have this system in place but
can it be refined(business-like attitiude, detemination) to be more
effective and profitable(results in more people accepting Christ), more
people keeping the Sabbath Holy.
Thanking you
Justice
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:00:57 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Do we still need Pastors?
Jongimpi,
I believe our God wants pastors to be there in the church to nourish, guide
and lead her to a better understanding as to how the lost sheep are sought.
However what we see today is a lost vision even among the pastorate where we
have become more self-centred. In my context I have seen pastors and elders
who do not seem to understand that soul winning and the bringing of people
to Jesus is one major role we are here for. If pastors cannot see this
important function of theirs then we do not need them. May I therefore say
we need to have this purpose in mind, namely to preserve that which is
already on our side and to seek others whom Jesus came to seek and save.
Let me share this experience with you. During this last Sabbath afternoon I
joined part of our district membership that was doing a survey in a place
where we will hold an evangelistic campaign in March next year. There were
approximately 80 of us. In all the houses that I entered the people were
very interested in bible studies and neighbourhood preaching. One particular
man cried tears when I asked him a question as to how one becomes a
Christian. This was puzzling, but he then stated that he wants to become a
Christian although he does not know he can become one. When I returned to
the brethren at sunset we realised that those who are well trained in the
gospel could be leading by example instead of holding programmes every
Sabbath day in church.
It is my submission that we need pastors for better and nobler purpose far
more than inside our own congregations.
God bless you.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 11:00 AM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
Friends
I was hoping that we will not spend the whole week introducing ourselves.
Remember this is an open week, where we can raise any subject. Allow me to
raise one that maybe a little sensitive.
Do we really need Pastors, I mean pastors as in those who preach once a week
and hold elections once a year, bury the dead and marry the saints?
I am asking this question in light of the two ar
Somewhere, it is noted that churches who still believe that they need a
pastor to look after them, may be dying or have lost the vision of their
mission. We know that churches in the end time will exist without pastors,
I think, now is the best time to move toward that direction.
Today our Pastors are anything between Counsellors and Builders but far from
what they are supposed to be, that is, Evangelists. What is your take on
this subject? Do you think that your church needs a Pastor. I know of a
church that has three pastors looking after it. There has been a cry for
more pastors, where bigger churches have expressed a need for a pastor they
will not share with other churches. Maybe Andrew can help us here, for I
understand they are planning to establish a branch in Midrand. I thought
Ramo has indicated keen interest in being an elder or leader of the branch.
Go Ye therefore...
Jongimpi
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:12:59 +0200
From: <jbvanyaza@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Re: EVANGELISM TOOLS BROCHURE
Mashudu,
I do not mind my brother,thou I am a bit shy and not a public speaker.
I appreciate your willingness and effort to help.
Nikelo has offered to share his vast amount of materials with me.
I AM HUMBLED AND GRATEFUL.
God bless you all
Justice
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: [sa-sda] Re: EVANGELISM TOOLS BROCHURE
Author: <sa-sda@onelist.com> at INTERNET
Date: 19/10/1999 9:51 AM
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Friends,
Here is a message from Justice, It was sent to some members, I think we can all
benefit or help
Justice, I hope you don't mind.
The King is coming!
Jeremiah
>>> <jbvanyaza@caltex.co.za> 10/19 7:15 AM >>>
Please help me, I am looking for any form of PC multimedia
presentations i.e. CD-ROM's,audio or video tapes of Adventist
sermons,seminars/conferences, lectures and music concerts.
I would appreciate if you can provide such information including info
,prices & free material(Brochure)
It brings me closer to God to listen to his word when driving(audio tape)
at home(video tape) or PC presentations then share these resources with
others(evangelism).
A non Adventist lady saw one of Elder Fitzhenry's tapes and ordered the
whole lot, she has now accepted Christ as her personal Savior and became
an Adventist.
Tapes are very POWERFUL evangelism tools, besides the way one carries
himself/herself in his/her community.
TOPICS OF INTEREST from an Adventist perspective.
1. Faith -
2. Discipleship - Cell group - Concept for evangelism
3. Counseling - various forms i.e. marriage, teenager problems
4. Sabbath observance Vs New Covenant Theology
5. Relationship with God
6. Spiritual gifts - Deliverance ministry,praying in tongues,healing
etc.
7. Latter rain of the Holy Spirit.
8. Christian character.
I am a new member of the SA-SDA mailing list, that explains the source for
your e-mail address. I will be introducing myself soon.
The Copeland Ministries(Faith & Prosperity), Creflo Dollar(Faith &
Prosperity), T.D.Jakes material is flooding the Cape Town Christian
bookstore market with their audio and video tapes, our material is nowhere
to be seen except in the most hidden place in Cape Town where we have our
Sentinel Publishing. We a lot of material which the average Adventist like
me does not have access to. The challenge is to make the material
accessible to all.
Alvin I am quite interested in learning webdesign, I fully support the
initiative to strive for the presence of our churches on the net.
It is high time that we market the word of God, run the church as a
business the only difference it that God is the shareholder and the
profits are the new converts. We can setup business units in our churches
like Counseling, and operate the existing ones like Stewardship &
Temperance, evangelism effectively by making them sure that they deliver
profits which will also be invested to acquire more profits.
Each BU staff member(church members) will be properly trained to meet all
the required service levels. We can make use of various professional
skills with the church, i.e. for marketing/advertising use someone with
advertising know how, for counseling use a psychologist/psychiatrist
within the church. Knowledge can be shared by a group of churches by
arranging seminars. It pains me to see that our churches are not growing
and when converts come in the soon go out, thus leaving the church.
Jeremaiah, I like your title of being the "Ambassador", It is my dream that
Gods Church be run like a business, use technology like
computers,radio,television all to maximize profits(converts).
If it were possible even the tapes should be freely available but due to
copyrigt laws this is not practical.
Takalani I remember you my dear brother, you use to travel all the way from
your campus to our Thembalethu church.
This is not a new idea to Adventists, we do have this system in place but
can it be refined(business-like attitiude, detemination) to be more
effective and profitable(results in more people accepting Christ), more
people keeping the Sabbath Holy.
Thanking you
Justice
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The King is even at the door!
====
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To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:30:47 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Sermons and other Spiritual Food
Lulama,
I guess we are both tuned to the same network. Last week I asked Pastor Papu to be in charge of the Cyber Evangelism, and I was excited to get his positive response.
He is going to plan I series of messages to be posted on Friday mornings to the new Cyber Evangelism List. I plan to automatically subscribe everybody in this list (SASDA) into the new list.
If you have sermon/study materials you can forward them to him, and he will see how to present them.
Cyber Evangelism
I am disappointed that apart from the few emails that I have collected I have only received one Email address (and that's from Sam).
Where are rest of our members? Don't you know anybody who needs the good news?
The Bible says "For if you remain completely silent (!!) at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews (co- workers and friends) from another place (the stones will cry out), but you (place your name) and your father's house (?) will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom (your work place or school) for such a time as this (Cyber evangelism)?" Esther 4:14 KJV, with my comment
" So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for
the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. 8
"When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked [man,] you shall surely die!' and you do not speak to warn
the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at
your hand. 9 "Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn
from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul." Eze 33 7-9 NKJ
Please send email addresses to masabatha@yahoo.com,
Sound the trumpet! Jesus is coming back again!
Jeremiah
>>> "Lulama R. Zantsi" <wels124@welspta.pwv.gov.za> 10/19 11:39 AM >>>
From: "Lulama R. Zantsi" <wels124@welspta.pwv.gov.za>
Brethren,
I have noted the appreciation expressed for the prayer request
received a few days back. Indeed, it added new challenges and
dimension to the site. We suddenly came to the realization that it's
not merely about skills in arguing and debating but about exhorting
one another and spiritual upliftment as well.
Equally appealing to me was the sermon or article or sermonette (call
it what you like) by Pst J. Papu on "Faith That Sees". I encourage
whoever has not read it to do so very prayerfully. I was touched in a
special way when this man of God wrote that "we all know that Enoch
was taken to heaven on a chariot but never realize that before then,
he had to walk with God for 300 years and everyday was sweeter than
the day before". The challenge is not to procrastinate things to the
remote future but to enjoy the blessings of a relationship with God
today, even eternal life for that matter. Indeed, when it comes to
prophecy - whether 666 or sealing or mark of the beast or 144 000 or
anything else, the tendency is to forget that the applications of
most are TODAY and not tomorrow.
One could say a lot ... but the bottom line is that the sermon was
real, good spiritual food for thought. This humble learner wonders
if we cannot have such sermons at regular intervals, perhaps on
Fridays to reflect on the Sabbath in a special way (or some other
time?). The same author could be asked to do the honours - may be
with some variety? I don't know how others feel about it. In fact,
I remember Zambia's Pst Lubase's point at a SDASA meeting in the
Eastern Cape when addressing the so-called "too much
sermonizing/evangelizing/spiritualizing" at SDASA meetings. He said
that he may not have been a SDASA member but if a meeting is convened
in the name of God then God must be glorified! Whatever the original
intentions for this site, this humble learner submits: "The sermons
and other forms of spiritual emphasis must continue".God bless.
To know Him and to make Him known.
Lulama
this humble learner
P.S.: I'm not merely supporting Jerry's point about Cyber evangelism
for outreach purposes but am giving my own personal experience
(testimony) as well.
The King is even at the door!
====
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:36:30 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Ramo
Do not worry about the part of eldership, you are right you did not say
that. The point I was trying to stress is that with guys like you and
Andrew, do we still need to settle a pastor over our churches, by the way
this is the point that is made in the article I referred to. I must also
commend you and Andrew for taking the bold step, to even think of leaving
your own established churches to start a new branch. I am sure we still
need pioneers even today. If members are not willing as often is the case,
to move from their comfort zones, and start new branches, it will be years
before we finish this work.
I am sure we will say more on this when we tackle the issue of the gospel
commission, which I think should be one of the first subject we should
discuss. Thanks for your comments.
Every member a minister...
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 1:07 PM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
Jongimpi,
I often say things that I later realise I never meant to say, but the bit
about being an elder at the yet to be established Midrand branch I'm sure I
would not have said.
About the need for pastors: I really do believe that there is still a place
for them in our churches, even the established ones. Granted some churches
are so organised that a pastor is more a 'nice to have' than an absolute
necessity. Pastors of such churches should introduce the same kind of
'self-sufficiency' in their other churches so that they can concentrate on
that very important function that you mentioned, viz.. evangelism.
I think it is a shame that there appears to be so little use of the skills
of the layperson in the church for the church. A lot of time can be freed
for the trained evangelist i.e. pastors by delegating the majority of their
administrative duties, as well as the 'babysitting' ones, to skilled laity.
After all, we're in this together.
I realise that the above may do some damage to my objection to the eldership
of the hypothetical branch in Midrand, but I am sure we can treat the two
separately.
Let's work, for the night is coming.
Ramo
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 11:00
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: [sa-sda] Do we still need Pastors?
Friends
I was hoping that we will not spend the whole week introducing ourselves.
Remember this is an open week, where we can raise any subject. Allow me to
raise one that maybe a little sensitive.
Do we really need Pastors, I mean pastors as in those who preach once a week
and hold elections once a year, bury the dead and marry the saints?
I am asking this question in light of the two articles that appeared in the
October Issue of Ministry on the topic of church planting. The two authors
seem to agree that pastors shoul
Somewhere, it is noted that churches who still believe that they need a
pastor to look after them, may be dying or have lost the vision of their
mission. We know that churches in the end time will exist without pastors,
I think, now is the best time to move toward that direction.
Today our Pastors are anything between Counsellors and Builders but far from
what they are supposed to be, that is, Evangelists. What is your take on
this subject? Do you think that your church needs a Pastor. I know of a
church that has three pastors looking after it. There has been a cry for
more pastors, where bigger churches have expressed a need for a pastor they
will not share with other churches. Maybe Andrew can help us here, for I
understand they are planning to establish a branch in Midrand. I thought
Ramo has indicated keen interest in being an elder or leader of the branch.
Go Ye therefore...
Jongimpi
The King is even at the door!
====
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:47:43 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: Introduction
Paks,
You are right, I was just boasting about my credentials, I am not really the ambassador, I am just one (among millions) of the assistants,
But I can promise you that my salary cheque comes from " The New Jerusalem"
The distinctions do not really matter.
He is coming! ( I will soon have a home)
Jeremiah
>>> Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za> 10/19 4:12 AM >>>
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
Jeremiah,
I thought the New Jerusalem was a city, not a country. This poses a slight
problem with your title, doesn't it? Maybe an equivalent would be PRO.
Unless of course the New Jerusalem is a city AND a country, somewhat like
the Vatican.
For old time's sake,
Ramo
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani [mailto:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 16:05
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: [sa-sda] Introduction
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Friends,
It seems like most of those who are introducing themselves are the same
people who participate regularly to the discussions. Where are the others?
They call me Jerry, I prefer to be called Malozwe, lately I call myself
Jeremiah, my real name is Mashudu (which means lucky or blessed, I am really
blessed). I was named Jeremiah by an Adventist pastor (that was his name)
who lived with my parents when I was born. For many years I hated this name,
but lately I fell in love with it.
I am married to Millicent from VryStaat; we have a nine-month-old baby,
Gundo (victory)
They say I was born in Mamelodi, I grew up in the Northern Province , the
now defunct republic of Venda. I spent some few years in Cape Town where I
met quite a number of fellows who are in this list, actually I plan to scan
some pictures that will expose their faces.
I then lived in Pretoria & Johannesburg for a number of years before
skipping the country. We now live in Edison, New Jersey (about 60 Km from
New York City). I attend the Metropolitan Church in Plainfields,NJ. When
they ask me what I do, I would like to be able to say, "I am an ambassador",
which country? "The New Jerusalem!"
The King is coming!
________________(choose one from the list above)
The King is even at the door!
====
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The King is even at the door!
====
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:44:37 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Friends,
I wish I heard time to discuss this issue, Let me try to summarize my thoughts.
Pastors are shepherds, from my little experience of looking after the cattle. I have seen good shepherds and I have also seen bad shepherds, some don't even deserve to be called shepherds. Some of them as we were playing they will forget that they are shepherds. Some just don't care! But all of the get paid (monetary, only God gives us our rewards). Then the question is why does someone decide to be a shepherd in the first place? But that's not the question here, the question is do we still need shepherds, my answer is, as long as there are sheep, there is a need for a shepherd.
A more relevant question will be: how do we define a shepherd?
Is he the man spent 6 years in college studying theology? How about Bro. Tshabalala (He didn't get to STD 5) in Soshanguve who has brought (and natured) many souls to Lord? Paul Shongwe once told me that he used to sing in a quartet when Bro. Shabalala will be conducting evangelist campaigns.
Is he a shepherd? Yes
Should we get rid of pastors because we have lay people who can do the work of evangelism? No!
We need each other. We need those who can breakdown the Greek words as much as the ones who understands and knows the needs of the community.
We need each other. Let me give some personal testimony (I know the risk), just to illustrate the point.
As young people in Soshanguve we realized our need to preach the gospel. So, we (Sam is one we) invited Justice Mongwe (a fiery preacher) to teach us how to preach, he did an excellent job, he conducted a weeklong seminar on homiletics. However, when we went out to preach, we relied on the experience of people like Bro. Shabalala for guidance. As a young elder, I would sit, as it were, on their feet for guidance. They will tell me what works and what don't. Together we did a wonderful task, there was at least one soul added to the church every month. Together, Together is the secret word.
Together! Together!
Jeremiah
"As long as there are sheep, there is a need for a shepherd"
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:39:39 +0200
From: Fairbridge Dlamini <dlaminif@emsa.co.za>
Subject: Introduction
Friends
I am one of the members that joined the list and then went into hibernation,
I now believe though that the silence period is over. My name is Fairbridge
Mduduzi Dlamini however I am generally called Mdu. Fairbridge is a name
given to me by my late grandmother, it is very special to me.
I stay in Meyerton, a small to in the Vaal Triangle (Gauteng). I attend
church in Sebokeng Zone 7. Just over two months ago I got married to Ayanda.
We both hail from Durban (in the great KZN). I am employed as a Process
Engineer by EMSA, a graphite electrode manufacturer in Meyerton.
May I also add that I think the idea of having a page dedicated to the
members introductions is a good one fo rthe benefit of new members.
His coming is sooner than when we first believed.
Mdu
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: Introduction
Tumi,
I guess you wanted to send this mail to sa-sda@onelist.com.
Jeremiah
--- Tumi Motsepe <monate@webmail.co.za> wrote:
> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:32:32 +0200
> From: "Tumi Motsepe" <monate@webmail.co.za>
> To: masabatha@yahoo.com
> Subject: Introduction
>
> >Greetings in the name of our loving God.
>
> >My name is Tumi I am 27 years old married to a beautiful lady
> -Lerato- and we are blessed with a 3 year old lovely,beautiful
> energetic daughter -Ikaege.
>
> I started my schooling days at a local school in Dobsonville and
> moved to Orlando West S.D.A School.I then joined Cancele S.S.S. in
> Transkei during the Sir Baduza era, also studied at Emanuel High
> School in Lesotho. I then attended the Roodeport Technical
> College where I studied Mechanical Engineering.
I am now working for a non listed IT company as a SAP Operator.
>
> >Enough of that, I am currently attending the Katlehong - Hlahatse
> Congregation- but not as regular as I would have liked, but God is
> great and we should at all times thank Him for what He does for
> us. I am happy to be part of this group. And I hope to learn and
> contribute in a positive way.
>
> >Tumi
> //--------------------------------------
> Tumi Motsepe
> monate@webmail.co.za
> _______________________________________________________________
> http://www.webmail.co.za the South-African free email service
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:26:17 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Introduction
Mdu,
Congratulations on your wedding!
To all members: It is now a law, you have to tell us when are about to do strange things like getting married.
I won't tell anybody that Sam is also about to get married soon.
Mdu, Are you still in touch with some the guys who were in SDASO? Invite then to SA-SDA. I know your close comrade, Thabo, is with us.
I remember those good old days, specially the Sabbath afternoons at the botanical gardens. I might just be able to scan one of pictures from those days.
Once more, congratulations, take care of her, and may the Lord bless your marriage!
He is coming!
Jeremiah
>>> Fairbridge Dlamini <dlaminif@emsa.co.za> 10/18 6:39 AM >>>
Friends
I am one of the members that joined the list and then went into hibernation,
I now believe though that the silence period is over. My name is Fairbridge
Mduduzi Dlamini however I am generally called Mdu. Fairbridge is a name
given to me by my late grandmother, it is very special to me.
I stay in Meyerton, a small to in the Vaal Triangle (Gauteng). I attend
church in Sebokeng Zone 7. Just over two months ago I got married to Ayanda.
We both hail from Durban (in the great KZN). I am employed as a Process
Engineer by EMSA, a graphite electrode manufacturer in Meyerton.
May I also add that I think the idea of having a page dedicated to the
members introductions is a good one fo rthe benefit of new members.
His coming is sooner than when we first believed.
Mdu
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:48:00 PDT
From: "pitso patrick" <pitsotsibs@hotmail.com>
Subject: Introduction
Hie everyone!
My name is Pitso(a Sotho name which means "a call").I have recently been
granted the right to use this name officially about 3 years ago because my
grandfather whom i am named after was still alive before then!!
I was born two decades ago in a small dorpie of Odendaalsrus in the
Free-State where I accepted the Lord in 1995.(Co-incidentally this is the
place where Jerry publicly taught everybody who was interested how to
"steal" :-). The very same place has produced the likes of
Dr.Daniel Mphatsoe,"soon-to-be" Dr.Molapo Selepe and Dr. Fusi Madela.
I am presently studying at UCT(seemingly almost everybody on this site has
had contact with the "Mother-City"! i just love this place!) for a degree in
computer science. Dr.Alvin Masarira is my mentor down here no wonder the
greeting at the beginning!!!
I have been part of this cyber family since the good old days of "SASDA
Online" until some other agricultural company decided to have monopoly over
the name.I love the lord and i feel very much blessed to be part of his
spiritual family(and electronically as well).
To those who might be interested:
The ASCM at UCT is still doing fine especially now, since we are part of the
Mowbray Church.The students are gradually beggining to have a positive
impact because now three Elders of the church(Head Elder included) are all
students.It has not been an easy transition but we have decided that until
we brighten the corner where we are the emblem of Jesus will never be held
up high.
[pitso]
"The lord is just too good to be true"
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:31:04 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Introduction
Pitso,
You wrote:
>> Co-incidentally this is the place where Jerry publicly taught everybody who was interested how to
"steal"
I am convinced that you failed this lesson. There is a difference between stealing and taking, if you have lost something, then you find it hidden in some little dropie, do you steal or take it?
For some reason this little town has a formula of producing fine young people. The overwhelming majority of the church is young people and probably 99% of them do not come from Adventist homes. The gospel is preached to young people by young people.
That's where I found my rib (didn't steal it),
He is at the door!
Yeremia
>>> "pitso patrick" <pitsotsibs@hotmail.com> 10/19 2:48 PM >>>
From: "pitso patrick" <pitsotsibs@hotmail.com>
Hie everyone!
My name is Pitso(a Sotho name which means "a call").I have recently been
granted the right to use this name officially about 3 years ago because my
grandfather whom i am named after was still alive before then!!
I was born two decades ago in a small dorpie of Odendaalsrus in the
Free-State where I accepted the Lord in 1995.(Co-incidentally this is the
place where Jerry publicly taught everybody who was interested how to
"steal" :-). The very same place has produced the likes of
Dr.Daniel Mphatsoe,"soon-to-be" Dr.Molapo Selepe and Dr. Fusi Madela.
I am presently studying at UCT(seemingly almost everybody on this site has
had contact with the "Mother-City"! i just love this place!) for a degree in
computer science. Dr.Alvin Masarira is my mentor down here no wonder the
greeting at the beginning!!!
I have been part of this cyber family since the good old days of "SASDA
Online" until some other agricultural company decided to have monopoly over
the name.I love the lord and i feel very much blessed to be part of his
spiritual family(and electronically as well).
To those who might be interested:
The ASCM at UCT is still doing fine especially now, since we are part of the
Mowbray Church.The students are gradually beggining to have a positive
impact because now three Elders of the church(Head Elder included) are all
students.It has not been an easy transition but we have decided that until
we brighten the corner where we are the emblem of Jesus will never be held
up high.
[pitso]
"The lord is just too good to be true"
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:14:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Subject: What do guests say about our site
Here are some comments from our guest Book.
Record 31
Name: Ntombo Baduza
Website:
Referred by: From a Friend
From: Western Cape, Cape Town
Time: 1999-10-19 14:12:37
Comments: Guys I am so happy in finding out about this site. The
amazing thing is that it was sent by a friend and I
forwarded it without reading it first, and when my friend received
it she then send it back to me asking what was going on
about the email. I then took notice of it and whaala hear I am today
on it. May God be with you always
Record 28
Name: Del McKray
Website:
Referred by: Just Surfed On In
From: North Carolina USA
Time: 1999-09-05 00:22:35
Comments: Just wanted to let you know this my first time on your
site have found it very good and interesting and plan to
visit again also thought I'd let you know I was surfing for some
Adventis info of another source and came accross tagnet.com
and found your site there the waves were good today GOD Bless del
Record 27
Name: naomi c. glascoe
Website:
Referred by: Just Surfed On In
From: culpeper, va (USA)
Time: 1999-09-01 02:51:50
Comments: I have enjoyed enjoyed your website very
much...interesting discussions. I will bookmark as one of my
favorites. God bless you and continue the good work Naomi
Record 26
Name: James Darlington
Website:
Referred by: Just Surfed On In
From: Montreal, Canada
Time: 1999-07-24 12:28:43
Comments: You are doing a great work for the Lord, keep it up and
God bless. James Darlington
Record 13
Name: Jack Hoehn
Website:
Referred by: Net Search
From: Walla Walla, Washington, USA
Time: 1998-12-15 10:06:01
Comments: Great page. Livelyest I've found in searching SDA pages.
Congratulations. Where are you located, physically?
Dr. Jack Hoehn, Walla Walla, WA
If you have any suggestions on how we can improve our site send them
to masabatha@yahoo.com
=====
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
Jeremiah Ravhengani
Moderator (Masabatha Online)
www.masabatha.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:49:02 -0700
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
Subject: Re: Important Admin Issues - HOUSEKEEPING
Mashudu
I just returned from Cape Town on business hence my silence over the last
few days. I see everyone's been introducing themselves and I guess, I
should do the same.
My name is Boyce, that's how I am known. I do have another name which is
seldom, if at all, used. But for our purposes let's stick to what we are
familiar with. I was born in the humble valleys of Mtubatuba, North Coast
of KwaZulu-Natal. My mother gave me the name Bafana meaning 'boys' because
I became the third son. As education creeped in and everyone wanted to
practice English, my name changed to 'Boys' but this did not sound nor read
nice. So another transformation had to occur, hence my name Boyce. I have
a little regret that colonialism had this effect for I would be called in a
genuine African name. Be that as it may, this is now my trademark.
I studied in Mtubatuba until I went to the University of Zululand and there
I did my law degrees. I then proceeded to work in Durban and later
transferred to Pretoria to join government. I am now with a parastatal
linked to the Department of Minerals and Energy, called Atomic Energy
Corporation. I am serving them as Chief Legal Advisor and Company
Secretary.
I got married in January 1998, to Beaulah then Motea from Sebokeng and at
3:10pm on 8 February 1999, at Femina Klinik, we were blessed with a son
called Kelello. I gave him the name, meaning brains, for I hope he will
grow to have Solomon's wisdom---but not of many wives and concubines
(joking).
I serve SDASA as a National Secretary and I have just been appointed elder
for my church next year, Mamelodi central, in Pretoria.
My CV is about 12 pages and it is not my intention to repeat it here. So
enough for now.
Cheers
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Tshivhenga Takalani * Group <TakalaniT@Transnet.co.za>
To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 10:54 PM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Important Admin Issues - HOUSEKEEPING
>From: Tshivhenga Takalani * Group <TakalaniT@Transnet.co.za>
>
>Mushavhi
>
>I am grateful of what I think would be the solution to the open/free for
all
>discussions we used to have.
>
>I feel that I should without a waste of time invite contributions about the
>"Southern Africa Churh History". I know that this is not a spiritual
>matter, but I think it is essential to know your past so that you can be
>able to gauge your movement.
>
>I know He is coming.
>
>Takalani
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mashudu Ravhengani [mailto:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
>Sent: 15 October 1999 00:20
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: [sa-sda] Important Admin Issues - HOUSEKEEPING
>
>
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Greetings!
>
>HOUSEKEEPING ISSUES
>
>I would like to thank all of you who sent me your contributions. I received
>more than 12 pages of recommendations. My apologies for taking such a long
>time to respond.
>
>Before going to the recommendations I will like to address the following:
>
>Lack of participation by members
>I am concerned that only a small percentage of our members contribute in
the
>discussions. I am told that there is a feeling among some of our members
>that this is a forum for intellectuals who are somewhat above the rest of
>us. I need some help on how we can change this perception. I agree that
some
>of our contributions, especially mine, are too hash, I need a lot of grace.
>May be that's one of the reasons why others are afraid to air their view.
>All need to try harder to kind to one other.
>My prayer is for this list to be a comfortable home for all us. This should
>be that place where we can ask question (even those that we think are
stupid
>ones) without fear. We need to go down to the basics, instead of dealing
>with philosophical question we need to address the day to day issues,
things
>that affect our lives. If we fail to do that we will have failed in our
>mission.
>
>AIMS AND OBJECTIVES
>1. To contribute through discussion and sharing to the spiritual
development
>of participants.
>2. To enhance and engender a stronger and deeper sense of responsibility
and
>participation in terms of the Gospel Commission.
>3. To inculcate a culture of reading and studying the Bible, Spirit of
>Prophecy, spiritual books, and to enhance the understanding of prophecy and
>the signs of the time.
>4. To serve as a platform for members to share their understanding of their
>role in the work of God, and to encourage them to be committed and
effective
>servants.
>
>Recommendations
>Members to supply Bible and SOP references
>I think our aim is to learn and to uplift each other, so whne you are
trying
>to make a point and you can remember the verse/ SOP quotation, go to
>resources in www.masabatha.org and you can search for the verse/ SOP
>quotation.
>
>All news items should be sent to the list on Thursday
>We are very grateful to all of you out there are send us the local news
>(thanks to Shirley) briefing and the ANN news (there some of our members
who
>don't access to the Internet). In order to consolidate all the news items
>Thursday will be designated as the news day.
>
>Discussions format
>1. We will have one major topic(s) to be discussed for two weeks at a time.
>Members should send the list of suggested topics to the List Administrator.
>We will also appreciate essays and discussion papers.
>The List Administrator based on the contributions of members will select
the
>topics to be discussed. Topics will be announced in advance so that members
>can prepare.
>
>2. Members will not be prevented from discussing quick day to day issues,
>e.g. if someone once to know a verse that talks about divorce etc. If the
>member's question is not just a request for information it will listed in
>the topics to discussed in the future.
>
>3.We will have a week or two week's sessions that focus on a particular
>theme. E.g. Prophesy, Evangelism etc.
>
>4.We will also have open week * where people can discuss anything and
>everything, including previous topics.
>You can consider this to be the first draft, this is what I consider to be
>the best compromise from all the contributions that I have received. Now, I
>would like you to air your views, and we will make amendments where
>necessary.
>
>As soon as you receive this message we will freeze all the current
>discussions, we will continue with them after we have discussed this new
>format.
>We have three days (that's until Tuesday 19/Oct/99) to discuss this new
>format.
>
>Thanks
>
>Work, for the night is coming!
>
>MJ Ravhengani
>SA-SDA/Masabatha Online
>www.masabatha.org
>
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:58:50 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: What do guests say about our site
Dear friends,
It is exciting to experience how God uses things that seem foolish in
human eye. I believe that this shows how well we as a group, and
individually, can progress with God on our side. This is a true witness
to his wonderous plans He has for each one of us. It is a wonderful
feedback - I must testify.
It is true, we might have come a long way, but we are not yet where God
would like us to be. Just hang on in there and keep the discussions
gushing and the spirit of love and Christian insight hoovering - who
knows may be we also in this site can be saved bringing thousands and
hundred of thousands to the splendor of a personal relationship with the
Savior.
Thank you Mashudu for this venture, may you and the God who gave you
both the brains and courage to take the first, second, third and more
steps bless you and your family.
Now, to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or
imagine, according to His power that is at work within us, be all ...
Lungani
>>> Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com> 10/19/99 11:14PM >>>
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Here are some comments from our guest Book.
Record 31
Name: Ntombo Baduza
Website:
Referred by: From a Friend
From: Western Cape, Cape Town
Time: 1999-10-19 14:12:37
Comments: Guys I am so happy in finding out about this site. The
amazing thing is that it was sent by a friend and I
forwarded it without reading it first, and when my friend received
it she then send it back to me asking what was going on
about the email. I then took notice of it and whaala hear I am today
on it. May God be with you always
Record 28
Name: Del McKray
Website:
Referred by: Just Surfed On In
From: North Carolina USA
Time: 1999-09-05 00:22:35
Comments: Just wanted to let you know this my first time on your
site have found it very good and interesting and plan to
visit again also thought I'd let you know I was surfing for some
Adventis info of another source and came accross tagnet.com
and found your site there the waves were good today GOD Bless del
Record 27
Name: naomi c. glascoe
Website:
Referred by: Just Surfed On In
From: culpeper, va (USA)
Time: 1999-09-01 02:51:50
Comments: I have enjoyed enjoyed your website very
much...interesting discussions. I will bookmark as one of my
favorites. God bless you and continue the good work Naomi
Record 26
Name: James Darlington
Website:
Referred by: Just Surfed On In
From: Montreal, Canada
Time: 1999-07-24 12:28:43
Comments: You are doing a great work for the Lord, keep it up and
God bless. James Darlington
Record 13
Name: Jack Hoehn
Website:
Referred by: Net Search
From: Walla Walla, Washington, USA
Time: 1998-12-15 10:06:01
Comments: Great page. Livelyest I've found in searching SDA pages.
Congratulations. Where are you located, physically?
Dr. Jack Hoehn, Walla Walla, WA
If you have any suggestions on how we can improve our site send them
to masabatha@yahoo.com
=====
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
Jeremiah Ravhengani
Moderator (Masabatha Online)
www.masabatha.org
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:01:53 +0200
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Jongimpi,
You are raising a very important issue.
I've asked myself this question for the last few years and the
conclusion that I have reached, from observation, is that some pastors
are too busy with either church administration or church politics. Last
year at the TOC session, a concern was raised about the "non-visibility"
of pastors in real gospel work, and the answer that was given was that
churches should not depend on pastors for evangelism work. The problem
then is, pastors are not seen in the churches or in the gospel
battlefield, where are they? Strictly speaking, a lot of pastors can be
charged with AWOL (absent without leave).
In my experience this year, I think if we had taken a conscious
decision that we should work as if there is no pastor, we could have
achieved a lot. What we need, unless I am ignorant, are proper job
descriptions for pastors. At the moment there is a serious gap between
what the laity thinks the pastor should be doing and what the pastor is
actually doing. Perhaps we need to introduce performance management
systems. Pastors must sign performance contracts with their churches,
and Conference personnel (ie the EXCO) sign performance contracts with
the district church organs. It is perhaps sad that we have to think
about this business approach, but it has its merits. I suppose this
raises the old issue that pastors must do pastoring and administration
should be left to the administrators.
The other issue that I want to raise is this, at the beginning of the
year the pastor will give his itenerary to his churches (keeping in mind
that he does not even have a faint idea what the needs of his churches
are). Surely the churches, who know best what their needs and challenges
are, should determine the nature and character of the pastor's
itenerary!!! The same goes for the Conference, in December/January the
office will post its itenerary to the churches. Who exists for whom?
God's blessings to those pastors who are doing a splendid job.
"As for me and my house we will serve the Lord".
Andrew
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 10/19/99 10:59AM >>>
Friends
I was hoping that we will not spend the whole week introducing
ourselves. Remember this is an open week, where we can raise any
subject. Allow me to raise one that maybe a little sensitive.
Do we really need Pastors, I mean pastors as in those who preach once a
week and hold elections once a year, bury the dead and marry the
saints?
I am asking this question in light of the two articles that appeared in
the October Issue of Ministry on the topic of church planting. The two
authors seem to agree that pastors should be in the forefront of church
planting, raising new churches instead of baby sitting the already
established ones.
Somewhere, it is noted that churches who still believe that they need a
pastor to look after them, may be dying or have lost the vision of their
mission. We know that churches in the end time will exist without
pastors, I think, now is the best time to move toward that direction.
Today our Pastors are anything between Counsellors and Builders but far
from what they are supposed to be, that is, Evangelists. What is your
take on this subject? Do you think that your church needs a Pastor.
I know of a church that has three pastors looking after it. There has
been a cry for more pastors, where bigger churches have expressed a need
for a pastor they will not share with other churches. Maybe Andrew can
help us here, for I understand they are planning to establish a branch
in Midrand. I thought Ramo has indicated keen interest in being an
elder or leader of the branch.
Go Ye therefore...
Jongimpi
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:35:46 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Introduction
Weiers,
If you graduated in 96 you must have started in 92, I hope my
arithemetic is correct. We sure must have met on campus 'cos I
graduated in 92.
May God bless you and your wife whilst labouring for his lost sheep.
Good luck with your exams.
Lungani
>>> "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@mweb.co.za> 10/18/99 02:06PM >>>
My name is Weiers
I am a pastor in the Pietermaritzburg Area of Kwa Zulu Natal.
I studied at Helderberg College (Graduated 1996)
I am currently studying for a Theological Masters Degree in Leadership
and Development at the University of Natal (Pietermaritzburg). The
stress is rather high as exams are around the corner and assignment due
dates are approaching. (This is the reason why I am mostly a silent
member of the family)
I got married three weeks ago... To Simone. She is currenlty working as
an educational officer for the a NGO in Howick - "The Wildlife and
Environment Society"... We are still in the honeymoon phase and that is
another reason why I am generally silent online.
-------
My specific interests at the moment is the church and relevant social
action. What are the possibilities and challenges for the future.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:46:27 +0200
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Hie sa-sda,
I have quite an ambivalent relationship to the role of pastors in our churches.
My experiences with pastors have been both - on one side very positive and
excellent and on the other catastrophical and disastrous. I know of a pastor who
single handedly drove some close relatives of mine out of the church. He was so
"evil" that these relatives transferred to another church. Then I know of other
pastors who do such a marvelous work. The question is not whether we still need
pastors or not but rather how the job description of the pastor should be like.
I am of the opinion that the role of the pastor has changed over the past
decades and it should change even more, just as the role of the "Missionary" has
changed ever since the days of David Livingstone & Co. For me the pastor today
should be more of a Leader than a Manager. The Leader casts a vision for his
movement/orgnanisation/church and motivates the membership to catch the vision
and work towards it. A manager takes care of the status-quo and can not effect
much change. The pastor should know the needs of his/her church and recognise
the potential in those churches. His task then is to encourage, teach, lead and
guide the church to be able to be self-reliant and carry out its mission. Most
of the work must be done by the church (laymen/women) with the pastor in an
advisory position. Another big problem in the pastor-church realtionship is the
issue of accountability. To whom is the pastor accountable? Is he primarily
accountable to his "boss"/the employer (the conference) or the church he serves?
Alvin.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 19
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:40:11 +0200
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Do we still need Pastors?
Jerry,
We do "need each other", but for what? Unless roles and
responsibilities, accompanied with prayer, willingness, sacrifice and
commitment, are clearly defined then we will continue to be in limbo.
We need proper support systems to enhance and consolidate this "needing
each other".
A straight answer to the question, yes we need God-fearing, committed
and dedicated pastors for evangelism and soul nurturing.
"Watch and pray".
Andrew
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 10/19/99 05:44PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Friends,
I wish I heard time to discuss this issue, Let me try to summarize my
thoughts.
Pastors are shepherds, from my little experience of looking after the
cattle. I have seen good shepherds and I have also seen bad shepherds,
some don't even deserve to be called shepherds. Some of them as we were
playing they will forget that they are shepherds. Some just don't care!
But all of the get paid (monetary, only God gives us our rewards). Then
the question is why does someone decide to be a shepherd in the first
place? But that's not the question here, the question is do we still
need shepherds, my answer is, as long as there are sheep, there is a
need for a shepherd.
A more relevant question will be: how do we define a shepherd?
Is he the man spent 6 years in college studying theology? How about
Bro. Tshabalala (He didn't get to STD 5) in Soshanguve who has brought
(and natured) many souls to Lord? Paul Shongwe once told me that he used
to sing in a quartet when Bro. Shabalala will be conducting evangelist
campaigns.
Is he a shepherd? Yes
Should we get rid of pastors because we have lay people who can do the
work of evangelism? No!
We need each other. We need those who can breakdown the Greek words as
much as the ones who understands and knows the needs of the community.
We need each other. Let me give some personal testimony (I know the
risk), just to illustrate the point.
As young people in Soshanguve we realized our need to preach the
gospel. So, we (Sam is one we) invited Justice Mongwe (a fiery preacher)
to teach us how to preach, he did an excellent job, he conducted a
weeklong seminar on homiletics. However, when we went out to preach, we
relied on the experience of people like Bro. Shabalala for guidance. As
a young elder, I would sit, as it were, on their feet for guidance. They
will tell me what works and what don't. Together we did a wonderful
task, there was at least one soul added to the church every month.
Together, Together is the secret word.
Together! Together!
Jeremiah
"As long as there are sheep, there is a need for a shepherd"
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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:44:01 +0200
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Introduction
Tumi,
As per our conversation, you will, as all of us have, find this
discussion forum beneficial.
God bless
Andrew
>>> Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com> 10/19/99 06:21PM >>>
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Tumi,
I guess you wanted to send this mail to sa-sda@onelist.com.
Jeremiah
--- Tumi Motsepe <monate@webmail.co.za> wrote:
> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:32:32 +0200
> From: "Tumi Motsepe" <monate@webmail.co.za>
> To: masabatha@yahoo.com
> Subject: Introduction
>
> >Greetings in the name of our loving God.
>
> >My name is Tumi I am 27 years old married to a beautiful lady
> -Lerato- and we are blessed with a 3 year old lovely,beautiful
> energetic daughter -Ikaege.
>
> I started my schooling days at a local school in Dobsonville and
> moved to Orlando West S.D.A School.I then joined Cancele S.S.S. in
> Transkei during the Sir Baduza era, also studied at Emanuel High
> School in Lesotho. I then attended the Roodeport Technical
> College where I studied Mechanical Engineering.
I am now working for a non listed IT company as a SAP Operator.
>
> >Enough of that, I am currently attending the Katlehong - Hlahatse
> Congregation- but not as regular as I would have liked, but God is
> great and we should at all times thank Him for what He does for
> us. I am happy to be part of this group. And I hope to learn and
> contribute in a positive way.
>
> >Tumi
> //--------------------------------------
> Tumi Motsepe
> monate@webmail.co.za
> _______________________________________________________________
> http://www.webmail.co.za the South-African free email service
>
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Message: 21
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 03:15:42 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Fw: ANN Bulletin: October 19, 1999
fyi
Shirley
ANN Bulletin
Adventist News Network
Seventh-day Adventist Church World Headquarters
October 19, 1999
----------------------
In This Issue:
* World Congress on Food Science Hears How Adventists Have Contributed
* Adventist Church Hosts Race Relations Summit
* Media Interest in Biblical Topics Welcomed by Adventists
* Adventist Female Pastors Meet
*Adventists On-line Forum Celebrates First Anniversary
----------------------
World Congress on Food Science Hears How Adventists Have Contributed
Sydney, Australia ... [ANN]
A paper examining the impact of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on
eating habits was presented at the 10th World Congress of
Food Science and Technology in Sydney on October 7.
"Health Impacts of Adventist Food and Diet" showed how in the past 150
years the Church built clinics, companies, health food
shops, hospitals and universities to help people live more healthfully.
Authors Sue Radd, consultant nutritionist for the Sanitarium Health
Food Company, and Dr. Harley Stanton, associate director
of the South Pacific Division Adventist Health Department, explained
that most of the "health foods" now regarded as staples,
such as grain-based breakfast cereals and soy-based meat alternatives,
were invented at the Battle Creek (Michigan, USA)
Sanitarium.
"I would speculate the majority of Australians have unwittingly
benefited from the health advances made possible by
Seventh-day Adventists," said Radd. "The church has been influential in
increasing the longevity and reducing the morbidity
of its members, but when you consider a bowl of cereal is the most
popular and nutritious start to the day, it's apparent its
reach has gone a lot further." [Brenton Stacey]
Adventist Church Hosts Race Relations Summit
Silver Spring, Maryland, USA .... [ANN]
More than 300 church administrators and institutional leaders of the
nearly one million-member Seventh-day Adventist Church
in North America have been invited to engage in a broad and
constructive dialogue on race relations as it pertains to church
and society. This summit on race relations, themed "Racial Harmony in
the New Millennium: Making it Happen," will be held at
the Seventh-day Adventist Church World Headquarters in Silver Spring,
Maryland, from October 27 - 30.
"Rather than merely talk about critical racial issues, participants
will be asked to concentrate on the important question of
how to bring about positive change in race relations, recommend bold
initiatives for dismantling racism, and create an
on-going mechanism to continually motivate, expand, and monitor the
progress of those initiatives," said Dr. Rosa Banks,
director of Human Relations for the Church, and a representative to the
President's Initiative on Race's Faith Community
Committee.
"We accept President Clinton's call to action and will prayerfully and
objectively address concerns within our diverse
congregation, seek to improve race relations, and take steps to prepare
our members for life and ministry in the 21st
century," said Alfred McClure, president of the Seventh-day Adventist
Church in North America.
The four-day event will convene on Wednesday, October 27, with an
interfaith prayer breakfast involving community and
political leaders and clergy of various faiths. Plenary sessions, 21
workshops, small group breakout sessions, and a "Great
Conversation on Race" panel discussion will create an environment for
constructive dialogue, while more than 50 renowned
thought leaders will spur on the quest for creative solutions. The
program will end on Saturday, October 30, with a worship
service that celebrates diversity. Adventists observe Saturday as their
day of worship.
Some of the speakers include: Dr. Samuel Betances, futurist, author,
motivational speaker, and senior consultant for
Chicago-based Souder, Betances, and Associates, Inc.; Dr. Tony Campolo,
professor of Sociology at Eastern College in St.
Davids, PA, author of 26 books, and producer of Hashing It Out, a
weekly television show on the Odyssey Network; Dr. Edwin
Nichols, a Washington, D.C.-based psychologist, motivational speaker,
and director of Nichols and Associates, Inc.; Dr. Betty
Lentz Siegel, nationally recognized lecturer and president of Kennesaw
State University in GA; and Dr. Cain Hope Felder,
professor of New Testament in the School of Divinity at Howard
University in Washington, D.C. [Celeste Ryan]
Media Interest in Biblical Topics Welcomed by Adventists
Silver Spring, Maryland, USA .... [ANN]
Current media interest in Biblical topics was welcomed today by a
spokesman in the Seventh-day Adventist Church's
Communication Department.
"With the media often portrayed as completely secular and
anti-religious, recent media items reflecting on the Bible and
religious faith in general are to be welcomed," states Jonathan
Gallagher, news director for the Adventist World Church. "The
most recent example-the report in U.S. News and World Report (October
25) "Is the Bible True?"-at least invites the question.
While we do not endorse all the conclusions in the article, it does
mark a more balanced approach to evidence that
undoubtedly does support the historic aspects of the Bible."
The report by Jeffrey L. Sheler looks at archaeological and other
evidence to support the Bible's historical accuracy,
concluding "it has been firmly fixed in a context of knowable history,
linked to the present by footsteps across the
archaeological record."
"Such a conclusion is far more valid than some of the speculative
positions of the past," comments Gallagher, "with the Bible
being seen as a fictional account written under drug-induced visions,
or the record of past visits by extra-terrestrial
aliens. The Bible is demonstrated to be accurate in its record of the
times it mentions, something often rejected by the
higher critics of the past. Our position is that the Bible is not only
historically true, but also spiritually true. That is
the more important decision we all need to make, and I'd like to hope
this renewed media interest would encourage more to
consider seriously the Bible's claims." [Heather Brannan]
Adventist Female Pastors Meet
Oslo, Norway .... [ANN]
A weekend of professional development and fellowship for Seventh-day
Adventist female pastors took place at the Sundøya
Fjordhotel, Norway, on the weekend of September 24-26. The first of
its kind in the Trans-European Division of Seventh-day
Adventists (TED), the meeting was organized by Pastors Terje Bjerka,
East Norway Conference president, and Peter Roennfeldt,
TED Ministerial Association secretary. The 18 female pastors who
attended from Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Great
Britain saw the event as further evidence of the Church's acceptance
and appreciation of female pastors.
The meeting also received very positive attention from the main
Christian newspaper in Norway, "Vaart Land", which featured a
front-page picture of guest speaker, Pastor Hyveth Williams, from
Campus Hill Church, Loma Linda, California, USA, and
followed that with a full-page article containing further pictures and
interviews.
Williams, reflecting on the fact that there are almost 20,000 pastors
for the 10 million Adventist Church members and only
200 female pastors, said, "We are 10 years behind other churches in
this aspect." She also said that as a black female
pastor in her 1,500-member church, she has not met any resistance
because of her race or gender.
Commenting on the issue of ordination, Astrid Hovden, female pastor of
the Fredrikstad Seventh-day Adventist Church in
Norway, said, "I am thankful to God for the ministry He has given me.
In practical ministry, ordination usually doesn't make
any difference, but it certainly would be a great encouragement if
women were also ordained. The present situation is an
artificial wall of separation between men and women."
Like Williams, Hovden has not met any resistance towards female pastors
in her church. She even considers it an advantage
being a female pastor, because the members seem to relate more
naturally to her, "forgetting" that she is formally a pastor.
Williams and Hovden both agree that the female pastors' meeting was an
historic meeting which will have long-lasting effects
in our world-wide church. Bjerka and Roennfeldt say that the female
pastors themselves set the agenda for the meeting,
addressing some issues that may be given little attention by male
pastors. [ANN/ANR Staff with David Havstein and Peter
Roennfeldt]
Adventists On-line Forum Celebrates First Anniversary
Silver Spring, Maryland, USA ... [ANN]
The Adventists On-line Forum recently celebrated its first anniversary.
"Just barely a year old, the Adventists Online Forum on the Web has
grown to more than 2,700 registered members," says
Webmaster Ralph Blodgett, who oversees the Forum.
The Forum-an Internet discussion board-has more than 1,400 topics under
discussion in 16 different sections. The sections
include: Adventist News, Bible and Theology, Family Life, Prayer
Requests, Quality of Life, Singles Network, Teen Life, Town
Hall (a general discussion area), and What Adventists Believe. In
addition, users can access Marketplace (where Adventists
buy and sell items), Obituaries & Funerals, Service Openings, and
sections in various languages (German, Spanish, Italian).
Each section of the Forum contains topics for discussion. For example,
in the Bible and Theology section-the most popular
section-topics include Evangelism, The Gospel and Salvation, Does the
Food We Eat Matter?, Baptized Into Christ or
Adventism?, and Hot Christian Reference Websites.
In addition to the actual Forum, Adventists On-line also recently
opened a live chat room-for use on Friday nights and
Sabbath afternoons-and a special library section containing articles
about various Seventh-day Adventist beliefs.
Interest in the Forum appears to be growing, with membership numbers
increasing at a steady rate.
"Every month another 150 new members join the Forum," states Blodgett.
"In addition to the registered members, we also have
another 6,000 users who visit the Forum and read messages."
The Adventists On-line Forum is free of charge with an existing
Internet connection and may be accessed at the following Web
address: http://online.adventist.org. [Heather Brannan]
12501 Old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, Maryland, USA 20904-6600.
(301) 680-6306.
CompuServe address: 74532,2611. News Bulletin is a review of news and
information issued by the Communication Department from
the Seventh-day Adventist Church World Headquarters and released as
part of the service of Adventist News Network. It is
being made available primarily to religious news editors. Our news
includes dispatches from the Church's international offices and the
world headquarters. The information
provided in the Bulletin may be reproduced without permission providing
that the source "Adventist News Network" is
acknowledged.
ANN Staff: Ray Dabrowski, director; Jonathan Gallagher, news director;
Heather Brannan, editorial assistant. Copyright
Adventist News Network 1999.
-----
This list is operated by the Communication Department of the General
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Message: 22
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:30:07 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com>
Subject: Doug Batchelor - Netny 99
Friends,
Yesterday I listened to Doug Batchelor study on the second coming of Jesus.
Before the sermon My brother said that black people like to listen to a real
preacher and maybe it the reason they do turn up in church in greater
numbers. Does it really matter who is actually preaching?
However I found Doug Batchelor doing a great job in presentation. He had a
few lovely expressions that show how eager we should be regarding the second
coming of Jesus. For instance, he said "I'm sick and tired of being sick and
tired". Another one was this one when he said "if there was a time that the
church was snoring regarding the second coming of Jesus, it is this time".
May Jesus surely come no matter who the preacher is.
Nick
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 23
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:30:58 +0200
From: <jbvanyaza@caltex.co.za>
Subject: Introduction/Justice,Bulungisa
My names are Justice,Bulungisa, surname Vanyaza. Bulungisa means
Justice. I am from the beautiful Cape Town.
God has blessed me with a wonderful wife Julia, a son and two
daughters. Our youngest child is 21 days old.
I am doing paralegal work for the Asset Management Business Unit at
Caltex Oil S.A. I am studying part-time(1st year Financial Information
Systems) at the Cape Technikon.
I am a member of the Siyazingisa Church which is a branch of
Thembalethu Church. Siyazingisa has a membership of +-50 but there is
love,warmth in that church. We do not have a church building hence we
are squatting at a Higher Primary School.
Let us all keep up the good work of lifting up Jesus through the
various discussions of this forum.
God bless us all with more wisdom,faith, love for him and
fellow-humanbeings.
Justice
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Message: 24
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:19:28 +0200
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Doug Batchelor - Netny 99
Nick,
It does not matter who is preaching, and Doug's presentations are
excellent.
Since Fitz Henry our Conference has not really been active in the
preparations of these broadcasts, does anybody know why?
"And everything that God had created was perfect"
Andrew
>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com> 10/20/99 11:30AM >>>
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com>
Friends,
Yesterday I listened to Doug Batchelor study on the second coming of
Jesus.
Before the sermon My brother said that black people like to listen to a
real
preacher and maybe it the reason they do turn up in church in greater
numbers. Does it really matter who is actually preaching?
However I found Doug Batchelor doing a great job in presentation. He
had a
few lovely expressions that show how eager we should be regarding the
second
coming of Jesus. For instance, he said "I'm sick and tired of being
sick and
tired". Another one was this one when he said "if there was a time that
the
church was snoring regarding the second coming of Jesus, it is this
time".
May Jesus surely come no matter who the preacher is.
Nick
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