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There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. God's Church
From: "Lulama R. Zantsi" <wels124@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
2. MAGICIANS / MAGIC
From: Viwe Jakavula <viwe.jakavula@xxxxxxx.xx.xxx
3. RE: Sabbath Wedding
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
4. SDA-Websites/South Africa
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
5. Re: Sabbath
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
6. Re: MAGICIANS / MAGIC
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:41:50 +2
From: "Lulama R. Zantsi" <wels124@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: God's Church
Brethren,
I probably will agree with most viewpoints about the complacency that
has just crept into the membership of the SDA Church as regards her
position against other denominations. Call me a conservative if you
like, I am not all apologetic about my encounter with God's truth
that led me to His church. Equally true is that I do not believe that
there is any discovery coming sometime in the future that will change
my convictions about God's "true church". This humble learner may
struggle to accept Jerry's viewpoint that the majority in "the world
made new" will come from non-SDA members. I would rather accept the
reality that there may be people who may be saved to glory without
having heard of the whole truth.
I believe Jesus meant what He said "Other sheep I have which are not
of this fold .... once they have heard, they will come to my
fold"-John 10. This tells my little simple mind that God has a fold
somewhere and that not all are presently in this fold - hence the
need for outreach efforts. Otherwise, if one can live for Jesus in any
other denomination and make it to heaven, then what's the point?
Perhaps we could balance the act by thinking of a grid that that has
four blocks like this:
Visible Church Invisible Church
Visible members
Invisible members
It is this humble learner's submission that the SDA Church is God's
visible church and has both visible and invisible members. The
visible members leave for Jesus to their best by the grace of God and
dependence on The Holy Spirit. However, you do have the invisible
church which also has both types of members. Her visible members live
for Jesus within the confines or limitations of the partial truth or
light that they have received. My understanding is that the glories
of heaven will be tasted by the visible members of both the SDA
Church and any other denomination who practise what they preach, walk
the talk and live the truth. This analysis balances the act and
confirms Matt 7:21 "Not all that say Lord, Lord". I still firmly
believe that the SDA Church is the true church - at least on the
basis of available knowledge and proof.
Maybe, phase two of the debate will be to distinguish between
"converts to Adventism" and those "born in Adventism".This humble
learner is not apologetic for being part of the SDA Church and for
God allowing through His divine wisdom that he be born into a family
that belonged to this church.
To know Him and to make Him known.
Lulama R. Zantsi
this humble learner
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:15:22 +0100
From: Viwe Jakavula <viwe.jakavula@xxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: MAGICIANS / MAGIC
Hi
Please enlighten me in this regard:
What should be an Adventist's comment about a Magician's performance? I
mean if I was watching TV with someone who is not an Adventist (like a David
Copperfield's performance i.e watching him fly!) what should be my
reaction. What does the church say about Magic?
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:29:19 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Sabbath Wedding
Friends,
I do not believe this story of Lungani. Is it really true Lungani? If it is
then I would quickly say we have become more than complacent. I would
imagine this is where arrogance would apply. Now, this is my first honest
reaction. Maybe the other brethren will assist me with this kind of shock
I'm going through.
Let me nonetheless apply my mind to your question. I would not allow any
Sabbath wedding to any particular non-Adventist. I guess the reason is for
this non-allowance is clear from my reaction here above. Also I think our
African tradition will inevitably catch up with us.
However, I would like to see us transforming one particular Sabbath day into
a family day program when two Adventists are getting married. Some few
conditions would apply namely, that our African tradition does not overtake
the sanctity and sacredness of the Sabbath day, that all necessary
preparations must have been made long before the wedding day and lastly the
mission of conversion of souls be uppermost in our minds. This means people
are drawn closer to Jesus. I may not finish with this prescription, but
these would some of the salient features I would recommend. If we foresee
that our tradition would be a problem then we would not conduct the wedding
on the Sabbath.
The above would also apply to funerals. After all Ellen White was buried on
the Sabbath.
Let me hasten to add that these two events could be very problematic in
today's society and therefore one would have to be very sensitive about the
weaker brother. In any event the local church has the authority to decide
what is actually better in a given situation.
Lastly, may I add that after my brother's my brother's wedding day at the
bride's home our church organised a family day people were invited to attend
the church service. It was such a solemn and wonderful Sabbath day. We
really got a revival.
God bless you all.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Lungani Mfeka [mailto:MfekaL@telkom.co.za]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 11:57 AM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: [sa-sda] Sabbath Wedding
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Fellow Christians,
I have been enjoying your opinions on almost all the subjects we have
been deliberating with. I do not doubt it - I am happy I subscribed.
Reading what Jerry has just written in response to Nick's concern, I
realized that I have a problem that has to be sorted out asap. It is
more of the problem that deals with church standards and procedures and
here it comes:
Is it accepted to hire an Adventist church for a wedding on Sabbath
afternoon, 16h00min, to non-Adventists who want to make a good
impression for their marriage?
This has just happened and I have been frowning at it such that my face
has begun to get sore and the church (church board) has no problem with
it even the pastor. I have been of an opinion that the Sabbath is a day
to celebrate God's supremacy, creatorship and lordship over our planet
and lives. I believed that things like weddings could be conducted on
Sunday because marrying parties are the centre of concentration than
their creator. Now, hiring the church out to non-Adventists on this
sacred day when there are programmes that have to be conducted is more
than comprehensible for me.
Am I critisizing something which Christ would have done similarly or
worse? Please I need your help. You can give me the stand of the
church as far as the Church Manual if you wish.
I want to know him more,
Lungani
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 10/12/99 04:19PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Nick,
I just want to re-echo the words of Alvin. I believe that we can learn
a lot from other denominations. The Bible teaches us to learn from the
ants, how I wish we could learn from the Jehovah's witness. I have this
feeling that the majority of people who are currently Adventist are
going to be lost, and that the majority of those who are going to be
saved are not (currently) or have never been SDA members.
One of the major Christian decisions that I have made few months ago
was after I listened to sermon from a Baptist pastor over the radio.
I also took some major decision with regard to health and temperance
after listening to secular people.
So, I believe God can use anyone even Balak to bring His message
(verbally or in practice) to us.
As Adventist we think we have absolute truth (copyright to the truth),
however my attitude is different, I see myself as a student (like
Lulama, a humble leaner), and God can use even the stones to teach me.
In fact, as I stated before, When I hold a Bible study with a
non-Adventist I made it very clear that we will only follow what the
Bible says. If we find out from the Bible that I am wrong in some of my
beliefs (including the Sabbath) I am prepared to change immediately; I
won't even consult the pastor. I have no allegiance to the church; my
allegiance is to God and His word. The only reason I am still a member
of this church is because I have searched the scriptures and proofed it
to be the true church. If my studies reveal something different I am
prepared to change (even joining a Sunday church) immediately.
In a traditional Adventism that's scary, I guess some out there might
be getting worried about having a List Administrator with such views.
I am convinced that this is what Adventism is all about. The Adventist
church does not teach people to just follow the tradition, but we all
need to study and know the truth for ourselves. When we know that truth
(whatever that means) we won't be afraid.
How I wish we could have:
Zeal to preach the gospel like the Jehovah's witness or the
Church of the latter day saints
The dedication of the Catholic monks
The knowledge and understanding of the scriptures of Adventists
To me more like Jesus!
Jeremiah
>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com> 10/12 5:45 AM >>>
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com>
Jongimpi,
I have been worried about a question that pertains to our self
condemnation
as Adventists. When we get some challenges we normally like to refer
to
other people of other denominations. I have always believed that we are
or
must be unique and of special character in regard to the reason for
which
God called the Adventist church into existence.
When we refer to other denominations when talking about ourselves, for
example evangelism, we would refer to the way Jehovah's Witnesses do
their
work and how successful they have been. Specifically, when Alvin refers
to
our "arrogance" as against other denominations this corroborates what I
have
been thinking about. What troubles me most is that I had to advise our
church board this past weekend not to focus on how other Jehovah's
Witnesses
function, but look at how our programs function around the world for
soul
winning purposes.
Please help me about this one because I feel it has become abundant
practice
in our church.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 11:14 AM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] ME, MYSELF, I
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Alvin
I must apologise for not fulfilling the promise I made on Sabbath, I
was
nowhere near a computer yesterday. Having said that, you are welcome
and
we look forward to your humble contributions, we are a big family here,
and
you are a part of that family. May God bless you in all your
endeavours and
may His name be glorified.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, October 11, 1999 5:37 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] ME, MYSELF, I
>From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
>
>Hie Folks,
>
>I've just subscribed to the discussion forum a few minutes ago and
maybe
>should take some moments to introduce myself. My name is Alvin
Masarira,
>male, early 30s, single, and originally from across the Limpopo
>(Zimbabwe). I have just joined (as from July 99) the Department of
Civil
>Engineering of the University of Cape Town as a PostDoctoral
Researcher
>(in Structural Steel Engineering) but also do some lecturing. I
studied
>and lived in Germany for about 11 years (1987 - 1998) and spent
another
>1,5 years in the USA.
>I am a dedicated Seventh Day Adventist and my faith and relationship
>with Christ plays a very BIG role in my life (or at least I try to
make
>it THE decisive factor in all I do). I believe we as Adventist have
been
>called for a special purpose into existence and have a special
message
>for this world. But at the same time I believe God uses and is using
>other Christians (of varoius denominations) to further His work and
>bring His work to completion. Therefore I don't believe that we
>Adventists have a reason to be "arrogant" (sorry for the term!!) and
>think we are better than the Methodists, or Anglicans or Baptists
etc.
>We should be humble and be grateful for the light we have and always
>remembering that "from whom much has been given will greater
>accountability be expected".
>That should surfice for now and I hope we will have exciting and
>enriching discussions on this forum.
>Wish everybody (who is in my time zone) a pleasant evening.
>___________________________________________________
>Dr. Alvin Masarira, Department of Civil Engineering
>University of Cape Town, 7701 Cape Town, South Africa.
>Tel.(+27)21-650-2585/4 ; Fax.(+27)21-689-7471
>Email: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
>___________________________________________________
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
The King is even at the door!
====
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To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
The King is even at the door!
====
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To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
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The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:50:59 +0200
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: SDA-Websites/South Africa
Hie Everybody,
Let me just float an idea which has been on my mind for quite some time now.
Since I have only been in this country for about 4 months the information I have
on this issue might be inaccurate, so please please feel free to correct me.
Apparently there is no co-ordinated official SDA Websites in this country (South
Africa). If this is true I find it quite unfortunate and I think it's high time
we (Adventists) do something about it. Maybe a brief background story - I was in
the USA when I accepted the invitation to come and take up my present position
at the University of Cape Town (UCT). I had never been to Cape Town before, so I
went to the internet to inform myself as much as I could about South Africa, the
Cape, Cape Town and the University. I got quite a lot of information (including
on estate agents who could get me an apartment to stay). Then I was looking for
information about the SDA Churches in Cape Town. To my surprise there was
nothing of use to me on the web, and that is true for all provinces and cities
in South Africa. To my knowledge there less than 5 websites from Adventists in
the whole of South Africa and even these are not as informative as they
could/should be. I am not trying to criticise the people who designed them. In
fact I want to commend them for the effort they put and at their own private
expense (at least one of the webmasters told me that).
I think we are not missing out on the opportunity the internet offers us to make
ourselves known in this country and also to supply vital information to people
who plan to visit this country either as tourists or on business or to stay here
and are looking for contacts with Adventists. I know that many people think this
is a waste of money and time, but in today's world information is very
important. I am very glad that we had Robert Folkenberg as our GC president
(1990 - 1999) and he really encouraged the SDA church world wide to go on the
internet and in his time the GC and many Divisions, Unions, Conferences and
local churches designed websites and
today one can get the information one wants quite easily without having to write
letters to these institutions and wait for the postal services to deliver the
letters.
As I said I do not know if there are any plans in that regard from the SDA Union
Conference and the conferences and local churches. I hope some of the people who
are in administrative positions of our church in South Africa are on this
mailing list and "listening" and if so I would really be happy to hear their
position on this.
I also know that our church leaders are busy with other duties and
responsibilities and funds are very low, but I think it is still important to
consider this issue seriously.
There was no official SDA websites in Germany until 1997 because it was not a
priority for the church leadership. So some laymen from all over the country who
saw a need decided to team up and form an association called (STA-ONLINE) with
the main objective of helping the church with it's internet activities. I was
one of the founder members of this association and I remember how difficult it
was to make the local churches and conferences see how important it was.
Remember not every Church Elder or Pastor or Treasurer is computer literate. But
today (2 years later) they have very good websites for the Unions, conferences
and local churches and other institutions e.g VOP, ADRA etc. These websites are
all linked to each other and one can "surf" from one to the other.
Sorry my email has become a bit too long and so I will stop here for the moment.
My question to you guys is whether there is an interest for us to do something
about it. I would be more than willing to give my input and assist the church in
this country get internet presence. But as I indicated maybe there are plans in
the pipeline from the official church administrators to change the present
situation.
I would be glad to hear your opinions.
___________________________________________________
Dr. Alvin Masarira, Department of Civil Engineering
University of Cape Town, 7701 Cape Town, South Africa.
Tel.(+27)21-650-2585/4 ; Fax.(+27)21-689-7471
Email: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
___________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:47:45 -0700
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Sabbath
If Jesus fasted for 40days, surely there must have been at least two
Sabbaths in the course of the fast. Therefore Jesus fasted on the Sabbath
and if Christ be our example, we will find no wrong in assimilating what He
did.
Hold on my child, Joy comes in the morning!
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Modise <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 1:37 AM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Sabbath
>From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
>
>Nick,
>
>I have not been able to keep up with the debates.
>Last night I was in a church meeting and someone mentioned that the
>Spirit of Prophecy "forbids" fasting on the Sabbath Day. I have not yet
>had time to investigate ( I will be investigating myself) this but
>perhaps you or someone out there can find this out faster.
>
>Even so, come Lord Jesus!!!!
>
>Andrew
>
>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com> 10/12/99 01:12PM >>>
>San,
>
>As to how far deeper you dug about the Ten Commandments is not very
>clear on
>your e-mail. All I can say is that the "reinstatement of the Ten
>Commandments" theory is foreign to the Sabbath theology.
>
>When one reads the books of Luke and Matthew one discovers that the
>controversy about the Sabbath was not about the validity thereof, but
>about
>the manner of keeping the Sabbath. The healing that took place on the
>Sabbath and the food that was given on the Sabbath clarify how the
>Sabbath
>should be regarded. I do not remember anywhere Jesus nullifying or
>reinstating the Sabbath, but I know of many places where Jesus showed
>how
>Sabbathkeeping should be like. At the end I know that the Sabbath will
>be
>kept in heaven. As the Sabbath was there at creation(Gen.2:1-3), during
>the
>exodus of the Israelites from Egypt to the Promised Land, during
>Isaia's
>time(Isaia 58), during Jesus time(Luke 4:16), and during Paul's
>time(Acts
>17:2), it is not surprising that Isaia would foresee that there will
>be
>weekly Sabbathkeeping when God set up the new heaven and earth. Anyway
>how
>could James write(James 2:10) and say if you break one commandment you
>are
>guilty of all, if the Sabbath was excluded from the Ten Commandments?
>
>I have attached a comprehensive article by Dr. Bacchoicchi for further
>clarification.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: The Easton's [mailto:s.easton@home.com]
>Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 5:50 PM
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] sabbath
>
>
>From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
>
>I had some unsettling news during the weekend...
>A friend of mine was talking with me about the ten commandments and
>stated
>that, of all the commandments.. Jesus reinstated them all EXCEPT
>keeping the
>sabbath holy. Jesus even got in trouble with the pharisiees on the
>Sabbath
>for not resting..... for healing and for picking wheat. He went on to
>explain that Jesus taught that we are now his temple and we are to take
>rest
>in Him.
>As I was digging deeper into scripture about this....it seems to be
>true.
>
>Anyone have any thoughts on this one?
>
>San
>
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:25:56 +0200
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: MAGICIANS / MAGIC
Hie Viwe and sa-sda ,
I think the bible is clear on this issue and God made very clear statements to
the Israelites as they were journying in the wilderness to Canaan. One can read
that in the old testament. Magic has something to do with satanic spirits and
demons. But I am not sure if David Copperfield is demon possessed or he just
uses "tricks" to perform his acts. e.g the thing with flying across the stage
could be done using
thin and transparent cables. In any cas since God condemns magic and all that
goes with it I personally don't attend magic shows (the entrance fees are also
too high any way).
Greetings,
Alvin.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
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