Digest 56, originally sent Tue Oct 12 08:14:51 1999
There are 17 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Cyber Evangelism
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
2. Re: Cyber Evangelism
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
3. RE: Once saved always saved?
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
4. Re: The thief in the night experience
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
5. Re: RE: Once saved always saved?
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
6. RE: The thief in the night experience
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
7. ME, MYSELF, I
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
8. Re: sabbath
From: The Easton's <s.easton@xxxx.xxxx
9. Re: ME, MYSELF, I
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
10. Re: The thief in the night experience
From: The Easton's <s.easton@xxxx.xxxx
11. Re: The thief in the night experience
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
12. Re: sabbath
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
13. Re: sabbath
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
14. Re: ME, MYSELF, I
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
15. RE: ME, MYSELF, I
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
16. RELATIONSHIP WITH OTHER BELIEVERS
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
17. RE: Sabbath
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:36:26 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Cyber Evangelism
Jongimpi,
What is triumphalism? Or what you mean when you say 'our assurance of salvation should never lead us to
triumphalism' ?
Please break it down for us.
Change of subject: Youth rally
How was the youth rally, will you be so kind to share your messages with us.
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 10/11 6:46 AM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
San
Thank you very much for enlightening me on the subject of assurance of
salvation. Your knowledge of scriptures is surely commendable, keep it up.
I am sure that somehow I did not make myself clear. I thought I was
responding to Jerry's question on whether a person can be a disciple of
Christ and not follow him.
All I can say is that our assurance of salvation should never lead us to
triumphalism.
He is able to keep us from falling
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
>
>Jongimpi,
>I have struggled with this question for many years, and I used to believe
as you do now but I have to disagree with what you have said. We can have
assurance that we are disciples of Christ. In the
>bible there are numerous verses, I will list a few and if you would like
more email me privately:
>
>Acts 16: 30-31: He brought them out and asked," Sirs, what must I do to be
saved?" They replied," Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved -
you and your household."
>
>Romans 10: 9- 14: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and
believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
For it is with your heart that you believe and
>are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."
>
>Romans 10:13 : for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be
saved."
>
>Romans 7:25 -8:3 So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's Law, but
in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore there is now no
condendemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
>because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of Life set me free from
the law of sin and death.
>
>Ephesians 2: 8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH -
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works...
>
>I have always been aware of these verses, but is salvation so simple? yes
>Can I believe what the Bible says and have FAITH that I am a Disciple of
God? yes. Will I always obey God? no because I am not perfect and I will
never be, but that is why Jesus died.. so he could
>forgive us of all the sin that we will do. (John 3:16) and it is no longer
what we DO but if we believe. If we are not following his leading but still
are believer, than God will show us the right way
>to go. Like Jonah, He outright disobeyed God.. but God didn't let him go
that easily and I think That sometimes God allows us to go our oun way for a
time so that we can realize for ourselves how
>inadaquate we really are. I also believe that once you are a disciple of
God that it isn't that simple to turn away... like jonah.. and in the end...
God gently leads us back to him. We are justified
>by faith.. not of works. and we can never be good enough or do enough for
God.. he has already accepted us by dying for us.. all he asks is to love
him.
>
>Hope to hear your comments on this one!
>
>San
>
>
>
>Jongimpi Papu wrote:
>
>> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>>
>> Jerry
>> You asked, "Is it possible for a person to be a disciple of Christ and
not
>> follow his leading"? Let me answer your question in two ways.
>>
>> First of all I think it is possible for a person to say that he is a
>> disciple of Christ and yet refuse to follow him. In this case it is not
>> what a person says but what he does that is a real answer to the
question.
>>
>> Secondly, a person can say he is a disciple of Christ, we may believe
him,
>> because of what we see him do, things like preaching, leading in the
church
>> and many other good things. He may also believe that he is a disciple of
>> Christ, but Christ can have a different evaluation of the same. In
Matt.
>> 7: 21-23, that seems to be the issue. The operative word here is
>> deception, person who is deceived does not know that he is deceived, we
read
>> that at the end many will be deceived into thinking that they are
>> worshipping God only to find out that they are worshipping the beast. In
>> fact even the beast might think that he is worshipping God, for he also
is
>> deceived.
>>
>> Who then is a disciple of Christ? Only Christ knows!!!
>>
>> If we love one another the whole world will know...
>>
>> Jongimpi
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 7:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>>
>> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>> >
>> >Greetings,
>> >
>> >Apart from the few positive comments, I have not received any response
to
>> this suggestion. I suppose there are many ways we can reach-out to the
lost,
>> this was just one suggestion. If you have something in mind, please share
it
>> with us.
>> >
>> >Few weeks ago somebody asked a question in our Sabbath school class, and
it
>> went like this: "Is it possible to have the Holy Spirit and still not do
>> what is the duty/mission of the Holy Spirit?" We can ask the same
question
>> this way. "Is it possible to be a disciple of Christ and still not follow
>> where Christ leads?"
>> >How can we really know whether we are disciplines or not? Or will we
find
>> out when we get to heaven or hell? Remember there is a difference between
a
>> disciple and a church member.
>> >
>> >He is coming!
>> >
>> >Jeremiah
>> >
>> >>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@UMDNJ.EDU> 09/27 3:25 PM >>>
>> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>> >
>> >Dear friends
>> >
>> >Few weeks we spoke about the need to reach out to professionals or the
>> so-called middle class.
>> >Here is my suggestion - cyber evangelism.
>> >I suggest that we start a mailing list (and a web site) dedicated to
>> reaching the UN-reached.
>> >Instead of it been a discussion list, it will be a study/sermons list.
That
>> means that we will send out a sermon or a study once a week to this list.
>> This will be a like church service since most of them to not attend
church.
>> >Every week one of our members (SA-SDA members, especially those who are
>> pastors) will prepare a brief homily to send to this list.
>> >
>> >My request to you.
>> >1. Ask your non-Adventist friends, colleagues and relatives if they will
be
>> interested in receiving our mails (one mail a week). Send me
>> (masabatha@yahoo.com) the email addresses of those who are interested.
>> >2. Send me your brief evangelistic sermons/ study materials/sermon
ideas,
>> in future I will request some of you to handle certain topics.
>> >3. I am also looking for suggestions for the name of this new list/web
site
>> >4. Pray for the success of this evangelist outreach program
>> >
>> >Unlike SA-SDA, this will be a moderated list, only the moderators will
be
>> able to send out mails to this list. The recipients of the mails will
have
>> an opportunity to respond to the mails but the response will go to the
>> moderators not to the list.
>> >
>> >I guess some of you have heard about cyber weddings, we will ask Pastor
>> Papu to conduct cyber baptisms.
>> >On a more serious note, Here is an opportunity for all us to participate
in
>> evangelism. Few weeks ago somebody asked a question on how we can reach
our
>> colleagues, here is the answer. All you need to do is to ask for the
email
>> addresses of those who are interested. God will do the rest.
>> >If the people won't go to church, then the church must go to the people.
>> >
>> >I am very excited about this idea, I believe God will do miracles.
>> >
>> >Let's all pray for the success of this outreach plan and the outpouring
of
>> the Holy Spirit in the Cyber space.
>> >
>> >Go tell it to the mountains* that Jesus Christ is Lord!
>> >
>> >Jeremiah
>> >
>> >The King is even at the door!
>> >====
>> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>> >To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>> >
>> >>The King is even at the door!
>> >====
>> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>> >To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>
>> > The King is even at the door!
>> ====
>> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:20:24 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Cyber Evangelism
Jeremiah
About the youth rally, It was wonderful, all I can say is we should not be
hasty in writing our church off when it comes to this chronic problem of
merger. I promise to send the message some time this week.
You nearly caught me off on the one of assurance and triumphalism. To me
the distinction between the two is very crucial. You see assurance is a
firm belief and conviction that Christ is your friend and that He walks with
you, and as such will save you(be with you forever). Triumphalism is
similar except that, it focuses more on the event than the process. Here
one believes that he has made it and he may even begin to start judging who
else will join him.
It is easy for Adventists, because of the Three Angel's message to write
other churches off. But when we read the bible and the sOP, we see that
many Adventists will not be saved, in spite of their preaching of the Three
Angel's message. You see the Laodecian message is an antidote against
triumphalism. The three Angels is the last message to the world,and the
Laodicean the last message to the church. Jerry, to be honest with you,
it worries to note that many Adventists will be "caught with their pants
down", to use the popular expression. Maybe Paul saw this when he said
that he does not want to be disqualified after preaching to others. Our
assurance should lead us to our knees and keep us at the foot of the cross.
We need Jesus now more than ever.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, October 11, 1999 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Jongimpi,
>
>What is triumphalism? Or what you mean when you say 'our assurance of
salvation should never lead us to
>triumphalism' ?
>Please break it down for us.
>
>Change of subject: Youth rally
>How was the youth rally, will you be so kind to share your messages with
us.
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 10/11 6:46 AM >>>
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
>San
>Thank you very much for enlightening me on the subject of assurance of
>salvation. Your knowledge of scriptures is surely commendable, keep it up.
>
>I am sure that somehow I did not make myself clear. I thought I was
>responding to Jerry's question on whether a person can be a disciple of
>Christ and not follow him.
>
>All I can say is that our assurance of salvation should never lead us to
>triumphalism.
>
>He is able to keep us from falling
>
>Jongimpi
>-----Original Message-----
>From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 7:28 PM
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>
>
>>From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
>>
>>Jongimpi,
>>I have struggled with this question for many years, and I used to believe
>as you do now but I have to disagree with what you have said. We can have
>assurance that we are disciples of Christ. In the
>>bible there are numerous verses, I will list a few and if you would like
>more email me privately:
>>
>>Acts 16: 30-31: He brought them out and asked," Sirs, what must I do to be
>saved?" They replied," Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved -
>you and your household."
>>
>>Romans 10: 9- 14: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and
>believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
>For it is with your heart that you believe and
>>are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."
>>
>>Romans 10:13 : for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be
>saved."
>>
>>Romans 7:25 -8:3 So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's Law, but
>in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore there is now no
>condendemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
>>because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of Life set me free
from
>the law of sin and death.
>>
>>Ephesians 2: 8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH -
>and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works...
>>
>>I have always been aware of these verses, but is salvation so simple? yes
>>Can I believe what the Bible says and have FAITH that I am a Disciple of
>God? yes. Will I always obey God? no because I am not perfect and I will
>never be, but that is why Jesus died.. so he could
>>forgive us of all the sin that we will do. (John 3:16) and it is no longer
>what we DO but if we believe. If we are not following his leading but still
>are believer, than God will show us the right way
>>to go. Like Jonah, He outright disobeyed God.. but God didn't let him go
>that easily and I think That sometimes God allows us to go our oun way for
a
>time so that we can realize for ourselves how
>>inadaquate we really are. I also believe that once you are a disciple of
>God that it isn't that simple to turn away... like jonah.. and in the
end...
>God gently leads us back to him. We are justified
>>by faith.. not of works. and we can never be good enough or do enough for
>God.. he has already accepted us by dying for us.. all he asks is to love
>him.
>>
>>Hope to hear your comments on this one!
>>
>>San
>>
>>
>>
>>Jongimpi Papu wrote:
>>
>>> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>> You asked, "Is it possible for a person to be a disciple of Christ and
>not
>>> follow his leading"? Let me answer your question in two ways.
>>>
>>> First of all I think it is possible for a person to say that he is a
>>> disciple of Christ and yet refuse to follow him. In this case it is
not
>>> what a person says but what he does that is a real answer to the
>question.
>>>
>>> Secondly, a person can say he is a disciple of Christ, we may believe
>him,
>>> because of what we see him do, things like preaching, leading in the
>church
>>> and many other good things. He may also believe that he is a disciple
of
>>> Christ, but Christ can have a different evaluation of the same. In
>Matt.
>>> 7: 21-23, that seems to be the issue. The operative word here is
>>> deception, person who is deceived does not know that he is deceived, we
>read
>>> that at the end many will be deceived into thinking that they are
>>> worshipping God only to find out that they are worshipping the beast.
In
>>> fact even the beast might think that he is worshipping God, for he also
>is
>>> deceived.
>>>
>>> Who then is a disciple of Christ? Only Christ knows!!!
>>>
>>> If we love one another the whole world will know...
>>>
>>> Jongimpi
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 7:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>>>
>>> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>> >
>>> >Greetings,
>>> >
>>> >Apart from the few positive comments, I have not received any response
>to
>>> this suggestion. I suppose there are many ways we can reach-out to the
>lost,
>>> this was just one suggestion. If you have something in mind, please
share
>it
>>> with us.
>>> >
>>> >Few weeks ago somebody asked a question in our Sabbath school class,
and
>it
>>> went like this: "Is it possible to have the Holy Spirit and still not do
>>> what is the duty/mission of the Holy Spirit?" We can ask the same
>question
>>> this way. "Is it possible to be a disciple of Christ and still not
follow
>>> where Christ leads?"
>>> >How can we really know whether we are disciplines or not? Or will we
>find
>>> out when we get to heaven or hell? Remember there is a difference
between
>a
>>> disciple and a church member.
>>> >
>>> >He is coming!
>>> >
>>> >Jeremiah
>>> >
>>> >>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@UMDNJ.EDU> 09/27 3:25 PM >>>
>>> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>> >
>>> >Dear friends
>>> >
>>> >Few weeks we spoke about the need to reach out to professionals or the
>>> so-called middle class.
>>> >Here is my suggestion - cyber evangelism.
>>> >I suggest that we start a mailing list (and a web site) dedicated to
>>> reaching the UN-reached.
>>> >Instead of it been a discussion list, it will be a study/sermons list.
>That
>>> means that we will send out a sermon or a study once a week to this
list.
>>> This will be a like church service since most of them to not attend
>church.
>>> >Every week one of our members (SA-SDA members, especially those who are
>>> pastors) will prepare a brief homily to send to this list.
>>> >
>>> >My request to you.
>>> >1. Ask your non-Adventist friends, colleagues and relatives if they
will
>be
>>> interested in receiving our mails (one mail a week). Send me
>>> (masabatha@yahoo.com) the email addresses of those who are interested.
>>> >2. Send me your brief evangelistic sermons/ study materials/sermon
>ideas,
>>> in future I will request some of you to handle certain topics.
>>> >3. I am also looking for suggestions for the name of this new list/web
>site
>>> >4. Pray for the success of this evangelist outreach program
>>> >
>>> >Unlike SA-SDA, this will be a moderated list, only the moderators will
>be
>>> able to send out mails to this list. The recipients of the mails will
>have
>>> an opportunity to respond to the mails but the response will go to the
>>> moderators not to the list.
>>> >
>>> >I guess some of you have heard about cyber weddings, we will ask Pastor
>>> Papu to conduct cyber baptisms.
>>> >On a more serious note, Here is an opportunity for all us to
participate
>in
>>> evangelism. Few weeks ago somebody asked a question on how we can reach
>our
>>> colleagues, here is the answer. All you need to do is to ask for the
>email
>>> addresses of those who are interested. God will do the rest.
>>> >If the people won't go to church, then the church must go to the
people.
>>> >
>>> >I am very excited about this idea, I believe God will do miracles.
>>> >
>>> >Let's all pray for the success of this outreach plan and the outpouring
>of
>>> the Holy Spirit in the Cyber space.
>>> >
>>> >Go tell it to the mountains* that Jesus Christ is Lord!
>>> >
>>> >Jeremiah
>>> >
>>> >The King is even at the door!
>>> >====
>>> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>> >To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>> >
>>> >>The King is even at the door!
>>> >====
>>> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>> >To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>>
>>> > The King is even at the door!
>>> ====
>>> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>
>>>The King is even at the door!
>>====
>>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:57:02 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Once saved always saved?
Jerry,
May I join in this discussion coming with a different dimension. There are
independent ministries conducted by Adventists.
Let me attach a subject that talks about "How to obtain the Seal". When one
goes through the whole study one seems to gather a feeling that we have to
exercise works in order to be saved. There is nothing that talks about our
faith in God culminating in the secondary part of our salvation namely,
works. Thus I want to agree with Jongimpi that there is a measure of
complacency that we need to avoid as Adventists. Sometimes I feel that our
complacency about salvation seems to make us to be in a perfect heaven here
on earth to a point of forgetting that we are still in a sinful world. It is
the reason we should always seek to balance our salvation with the fact that
is not always a fact that once always saved.
May God help us to die daily as Paul says: "I die daily".
God bless.
Nick
http://breadoflife.simplenet.com/obtain.HTML
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 3:20 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Jeremiah
About the youth rally, It was wonderful, all I can say is we should not be
hasty in writing our church off when it comes to this chronic problem of
merger. I promise to send the message some time this week.
You nearly caught me off on the one of assurance and triumphalism. To me
the distinction between the two is very crucial. You see assurance is a
firm belief and conviction that Christ is your friend and that He walks with
you, and as such will save you(be with you forever). Triumphalism is
similar except that, it focuses more on the event than the process. Here
one believes that he has made it and he may even begin to start judging who
else will join him.
It is easy for Adventists, because of the Three Angel's message to write
other churches off. But when we read the bible and the sOP, we see that
many Adventists will not be saved, in spite of their preaching of the Three
Angel's message. You see the Laodecian message is an antidote against
triumphalism. The three Angels is the last message to the world,and the
Laodicean the last message to the church. Jerry, to be honest with you,
it worries to note that many Adventists will be "caught with their pants
down", to use the popular expression. Maybe Paul saw this when he said
that he does not want to be disqualified after preaching to others. Our
assurance should lead us to our knees and keep us at the foot of the cross.
We need Jesus now more than ever.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, October 11, 1999 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Jongimpi,
>
>What is triumphalism? Or what you mean when you say 'our assurance of
salvation should never lead us to
>triumphalism' ?
>Please break it down for us.
>
>Change of subject: Youth rally
>How was the youth rally, will you be so kind to share your messages with
us.
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 10/11 6:46 AM >>>
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
>San
>Thank you very much for enlightening me on the subject of assurance of
>salvation. Your knowledge of scriptures is surely commendable, keep it up.
>
>I am sure that somehow I did not make myself clear. I thought I was
>responding to Jerry's question on whether a person can be a disciple of
>Christ and not follow him.
>
>All I can say is that our assurance of salvation should never lead us to
>triumphalism.
>
>He is able to keep us from falling
>
>Jongimpi
>-----Original Message-----
>From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 7:28 PM
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>
>
>>From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
>>
>>Jongimpi,
>>I have struggled with this question for many years, and I used to believe
>as you do now but I have to disagree with what you have said. We can have
>assurance that we are disciples of Christ. In the
>>bible there are numerous verses, I will list a few and if you would like
>more email me privately:
>>
>>Acts 16: 30-31: He brought them out and asked," Sirs, what must I do to be
>saved?" They replied," Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved -
>you and your household."
>>
>>Romans 10: 9- 14: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and
>believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
>For it is with your heart that you believe and
>>are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."
>>
>>Romans 10:13 : for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be
>saved."
>>
>>Romans 7:25 -8:3 So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's Law, but
>in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore there is now no
>condendemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
>>because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of Life set me free
from
>the law of sin and death.
>>
>>Ephesians 2: 8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH -
>and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works...
>>
>>I have always been aware of these verses, but is salvation so simple? yes
>>Can I believe what the Bible says and have FAITH that I am a Disciple of
>God? yes. Will I always obey God? no because I am not perfect and I will
>never be, but that is why Jesus died.. so he could
>>forgive us of all the sin that we will do. (John 3:16) and it is no longer
>what we DO but if we believe. If we are not following his leading but still
>are believer, than God will show us the right way
>>to go. Like Jonah, He outright disobeyed God.. but God didn't let him go
>that easily and I think That sometimes God allows us to go our oun way for
a
>time so that we can realize for ourselves how
>>inadaquate we really are. I also believe that once you are a disciple of
>God that it isn't that simple to turn away... like jonah.. and in the
end...
>God gently leads us back to him. We are justified
>>by faith.. not of works. and we can never be good enough or do enough for
>God.. he has already accepted us by dying for us.. all he asks is to love
>him.
>>
>>Hope to hear your comments on this one!
>>
>>San
>>
>>
>>
>>Jongimpi Papu wrote:
>>
>>> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>> You asked, "Is it possible for a person to be a disciple of Christ and
>not
>>> follow his leading"? Let me answer your question in two ways.
>>>
>>> First of all I think it is possible for a person to say that he is a
>>> disciple of Christ and yet refuse to follow him. In this case it is
not
>>> what a person says but what he does that is a real answer to the
>question.
>>>
>>> Secondly, a person can say he is a disciple of Christ, we may believe
>him,
>>> because of what we see him do, things like preaching, leading in the
>church
>>> and many other good things. He may also believe that he is a disciple
of
>>> Christ, but Christ can have a different evaluation of the same. In
>Matt.
>>> 7: 21-23, that seems to be the issue. The operative word here is
>>> deception, person who is deceived does not know that he is deceived, we
>read
>>> that at the end many will be deceived into thinking that they are
>>> worshipping God only to find out that they are worshipping the beast.
In
>>> fact even the beast might think that he is worshipping God, for he also
>is
>>> deceived.
>>>
>>> Who then is a disciple of Christ? Only Christ knows!!!
>>>
>>> If we love one another the whole world will know...
>>>
>>> Jongimpi
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 7:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>>>
>>> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>> >
>>> >Greetings,
>>> >
>>> >Apart from the few positive comments, I have not received any response
>to
>>> this suggestion. I suppose there are many ways we can reach-out to the
>lost,
>>> this was just one suggestion. If you have something in mind, please
share
>it
>>> with us.
>>> >
>>> >Few weeks ago somebody asked a question in our Sabbath school class,
and
>it
>>> went like this: "Is it possible to have the Holy Spirit and still not do
>>> what is the duty/mission of the Holy Spirit?" We can ask the same
>question
>>> this way. "Is it possible to be a disciple of Christ and still not
follow
>>> where Christ leads?"
>>> >How can we really know whether we are disciplines or not? Or will we
>find
>>> out when we get to heaven or hell? Remember there is a difference
between
>a
>>> disciple and a church member.
>>> >
>>> >He is coming!
>>> >
>>> >Jeremiah
>>> >
>>> >>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@UMDNJ.EDU> 09/27 3:25 PM >>>
>>> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>> >
>>> >Dear friends
>>> >
>>> >Few weeks we spoke about the need to reach out to professionals or the
>>> so-called middle class.
>>> >Here is my suggestion - cyber evangelism.
>>> >I suggest that we start a mailing list (and a web site) dedicated to
>>> reaching the UN-reached.
>>> >Instead of it been a discussion list, it will be a study/sermons list.
>That
>>> means that we will send out a sermon or a study once a week to this
list.
>>> This will be a like church service since most of them to not attend
>church.
>>> >Every week one of our members (SA-SDA members, especially those who are
>>> pastors) will prepare a brief homily to send to this list.
>>> >
>>> >My request to you.
>>> >1. Ask your non-Adventist friends, colleagues and relatives if they
will
>be
>>> interested in receiving our mails (one mail a week). Send me
>>> (masabatha@yahoo.com) the email addresses of those who are interested.
>>> >2. Send me your brief evangelistic sermons/ study materials/sermon
>ideas,
>>> in future I will request some of you to handle certain topics.
>>> >3. I am also looking for suggestions for the name of this new list/web
>site
>>> >4. Pray for the success of this evangelist outreach program
>>> >
>>> >Unlike SA-SDA, this will be a moderated list, only the moderators will
>be
>>> able to send out mails to this list. The recipients of the mails will
>have
>>> an opportunity to respond to the mails but the response will go to the
>>> moderators not to the list.
>>> >
>>> >I guess some of you have heard about cyber weddings, we will ask Pastor
>>> Papu to conduct cyber baptisms.
>>> >On a more serious note, Here is an opportunity for all us to
participate
>in
>>> evangelism. Few weeks ago somebody asked a question on how we can reach
>our
>>> colleagues, here is the answer. All you need to do is to ask for the
>email
>>> addresses of those who are interested. God will do the rest.
>>> >If the people won't go to church, then the church must go to the
people.
>>> >
>>> >I am very excited about this idea, I believe God will do miracles.
>>> >
>>> >Let's all pray for the success of this outreach plan and the outpouring
>of
>>> the Holy Spirit in the Cyber space.
>>> >
>>> >Go tell it to the mountains* that Jesus Christ is Lord!
>>> >
>>> >Jeremiah
>>> >
>>> >The King is even at the door!
>>> >====
>>> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>> >To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>> >
>>> >>The King is even at the door!
>>> >====
>>> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>> >To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>>
>>> > The King is even at the door!
>>> ====
>>> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>
>>>The King is even at the door!
>>====
>>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 10:03:25 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: The thief in the night experience
Jongimpi,
Thank you for this message.
Last week at our Wednesday prayer meeting we were talking about the mark of the beast and the end times. There was much emphasis on the Sabbath (the seal of God) and Sunday (the mark of the beast). This was not unusual; in fact this is what Adventists do everywhere. There is this main emphasis on Sunday, Sunday law and the juice information about Smart cards, bar coding and the New World order. I do not think that there is anything wrong with this, however as you correctly pointed out we seem to miss the real point, the relationship with God.
Have you realized that when some news come out that the USA government is about to implement some Sunday law or the Pope is calling for the enforcement of Sunday, many us become very serious. But when the excitement dies out, we go back to our old ways. What kind of religion is that? Is it the mark of the Beast religion? We seem to have a stronger relationship with the Mark than with Christ?
If we have a relationship with Christ it does not matter what Satan and the papal system does, for Christ will never leave us
So, when I suggested that the end-time conflict is not about days, but about worship and dominion, the majority of those in attendance were not very happy.
The relationship with God, not the knowledge of the days (Sabbath or Sunday), or the ability to do arithmetic (adding up to 666) will determine whether we will stand or not.
Who shall be able to stand on that day? All of those who are standing today will be able to stand then. If we never learn to stand today, we will not be able to stand then. Adventist are strange people, they can't stand the pain when somebody steps on their toes (petty church issues), yet they claim that they will stand when faced death (Mark of the beast).
I agree, we all need Jesus (for ourselves) more than ever before! (Many a times we need Jesus for everybody else except ourselves)
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 10/07 8:28 AM >>>
My Friends
Allow me to share some few thoughts with you, as always you are welcome to disagree.
Christ warned that His return will be like a thief in the night. The question is, is it possible for Seventh-day Adventists to experience the thief in the night unreadiness for Christ's return? An average Adventist knows about 666(hopefully), the death decree, plagues, Armageddon, how could the coming of Christ ever surprise him?
What we have neglected is that,to be ready for the second coming of Christ we must be ready for the second coming of the Holy Spirit, (Latter rain). This is where most adventists are going to be caught unawares. The double gathering that we often talk about, that is those under the banner of the devil and those under Christ has nothing to do with the time to be ready. The angel of Rev. 18 calls God's people out of Babylon, people who have accepted the Holy Spirit, whose names are written from the Lamb's book of life. They come out and begin to keep the Sabbath, but at the same time those who have not accepted the Holy Spirit, though they are Adventists, will come out of the church, for to them the church will be Babylon, of course those who have accepted Christ will remain . They have lived a life of hating the truth, now they have the chance to hate the church and denounce it as fallen. To such Christ will come like a thief in the night.
The time to prepare is now, not tomorrow. The time of Trouble is not the time to prepare but to stand on the foundation you have built over the years.
Ready or not HE is coming
Jongimpi
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 10:22:34 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: Once saved always saved?
Nick,
Few weeks about I talk about the three salvations, may be this will bring some light.
1 Christ came to save us from the penalty of Christ
On the cross he died for us sin, therefore He paid the price for us
When we accepted Christ as our personal savior, we are saved, this is called justification
2. He also came to save us from the power of sin
By his victory the over the grave and Satan, now there is no more condemnation,
When we confess our sins, dying daily, we continue to be saved, this is called sanctification.
3. He will come to save us from the presence of sin.
Chris Second coming, the blessed hope.
When we remain faithful until the end, we will be saved, and this is called glorification
So, when somebody asks you, are you saved? You can say I saved, I am been saved, I a going to be saved.
And the question is, can we be sure of our salvation? Yes by faith we believe that He who began the good work in us will bring into completion.
He is coming!
Jeremiah
>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com> 10/11 9:57 AM >>>
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@anglogold.com>
Jerry,
May I join in this discussion coming with a different dimension. There are
independent ministries conducted by Adventists.
Let me attach a subject that talks about "How to obtain the Seal". When one
goes through the whole study one seems to gather a feeling that we have to
exercise works in order to be saved. There is nothing that talks about our
faith in God culminating in the secondary part of our salvation namely,
works. Thus I want to agree with Jongimpi that there is a measure of
complacency that we need to avoid as Adventists. Sometimes I feel that our
complacency about salvation seems to make us to be in a perfect heaven here
on earth to a point of forgetting that we are still in a sinful world. It is
the reason we should always seek to balance our salvation with the fact that
is not always a fact that once always saved.
May God help us to die daily as Paul says: "I die daily".
God bless.
Nick
http://breadoflife.simplenet.com/obtain.HTML
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 3:20 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Jeremiah
About the youth rally, It was wonderful, all I can say is we should not be
hasty in writing our church off when it comes to this chronic problem of
merger. I promise to send the message some time this week.
You nearly caught me off on the one of assurance and triumphalism. To me
the distinction between the two is very crucial. You see assurance is a
firm belief and conviction that Christ is your friend and that He walks with
you, and as such will save you(be with you forever). Triumphalism is
similar except that, it focuses more on the event than the process. Here
one believes that he has made it and he may even begin to start judging who
else will join him.
It is easy for Adventists, because of the Three Angel's message to write
other churches off. But when we read the bible and the sOP, we see that
many Adventists will not be saved, in spite of their preaching of the Three
Angel's message. You see the Laodecian message is an antidote against
triumphalism. The three Angels is the last message to the world,and the
Laodicean the last message to the church. Jerry, to be honest with you,
it worries to note that many Adventists will be "caught with their pants
down", to use the popular expression. Maybe Paul saw this when he said
that he does not want to be disqualified after preaching to others. Our
assurance should lead us to our knees and keep us at the foot of the cross.
We need Jesus now more than ever.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, October 11, 1999 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Jongimpi,
>
>What is triumphalism? Or what you mean when you say 'our assurance of
salvation should never lead us to
>triumphalism' ?
>Please break it down for us.
>
>Change of subject: Youth rally
>How was the youth rally, will you be so kind to share your messages with
us.
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 10/11 6:46 AM >>>
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
>San
>Thank you very much for enlightening me on the subject of assurance of
>salvation. Your knowledge of scriptures is surely commendable, keep it up.
>
>I am sure that somehow I did not make myself clear. I thought I was
>responding to Jerry's question on whether a person can be a disciple of
>Christ and not follow him.
>
>All I can say is that our assurance of salvation should never lead us to
>triumphalism.
>
>He is able to keep us from falling
>
>Jongimpi
>-----Original Message-----
>From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 7:28 PM
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>
>
>>From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
>>
>>Jongimpi,
>>I have struggled with this question for many years, and I used to believe
>as you do now but I have to disagree with what you have said. We can have
>assurance that we are disciples of Christ. In the
>>bible there are numerous verses, I will list a few and if you would like
>more email me privately:
>>
>>Acts 16: 30-31: He brought them out and asked," Sirs, what must I do to be
>saved?" They replied," Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved -
>you and your household."
>>
>>Romans 10: 9- 14: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and
>believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
>For it is with your heart that you believe and
>>are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."
>>
>>Romans 10:13 : for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be
>saved."
>>
>>Romans 7:25 -8:3 So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's Law, but
>in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore there is now no
>condendemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
>>because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of Life set me free
from
>the law of sin and death.
>>
>>Ephesians 2: 8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH -
>and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works...
>>
>>I have always been aware of these verses, but is salvation so simple? yes
>>Can I believe what the Bible says and have FAITH that I am a Disciple of
>God? yes. Will I always obey God? no because I am not perfect and I will
>never be, but that is why Jesus died.. so he could
>>forgive us of all the sin that we will do. (John 3:16) and it is no longer
>what we DO but if we believe. If we are not following his leading but still
>are believer, than God will show us the right way
>>to go. Like Jonah, He outright disobeyed God.. but God didn't let him go
>that easily and I think That sometimes God allows us to go our oun way for
a
>time so that we can realize for ourselves how
>>inadaquate we really are. I also believe that once you are a disciple of
>God that it isn't that simple to turn away... like jonah.. and in the
end...
>God gently leads us back to him. We are justified
>>by faith.. not of works. and we can never be good enough or do enough for
>God.. he has already accepted us by dying for us.. all he asks is to love
>him.
>>
>>Hope to hear your comments on this one!
>>
>>San
>>
>>
>>
>>Jongimpi Papu wrote:
>>
>>> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>> You asked, "Is it possible for a person to be a disciple of Christ and
>not
>>> follow his leading"? Let me answer your question in two ways.
>>>
>>> First of all I think it is possible for a person to say that he is a
>>> disciple of Christ and yet refuse to follow him. In this case it is
not
>>> what a person says but what he does that is a real answer to the
>question.
>>>
>>> Secondly, a person can say he is a disciple of Christ, we may believe
>him,
>>> because of what we see him do, things like preaching, leading in the
>church
>>> and many other good things. He may also believe that he is a disciple
of
>>> Christ, but Christ can have a different evaluation of the same. In
>Matt.
>>> 7: 21-23, that seems to be the issue. The operative word here is
>>> deception, person who is deceived does not know that he is deceived, we
>read
>>> that at the end many will be deceived into thinking that they are
>>> worshipping God only to find out that they are worshipping the beast.
In
>>> fact even the beast might think that he is worshipping God, for he also
>is
>>> deceived.
>>>
>>> Who then is a disciple of Christ? Only Christ knows!!!
>>>
>>> If we love one another the whole world will know...
>>>
>>> Jongimpi
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 7:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Cyber Evangelism
>>>
>>> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>> >
>>> >Greetings,
>>> >
>>> >Apart from the few positive comments, I have not received any response
>to
>>> this suggestion. I suppose there are many ways we can reach-out to the
>lost,
>>> this was just one suggestion. If you have something in mind, please
share
>it
>>> with us.
>>> >
>>> >Few weeks ago somebody asked a question in our Sabbath school class,
and
>it
>>> went like this: "Is it possible to have the Holy Spirit and still not do
>>> what is the duty/mission of the Holy Spirit?" We can ask the same
>question
>>> this way. "Is it possible to be a disciple of Christ and still not
follow
>>> where Christ leads?"
>>> >How can we really know whether we are disciplines or not? Or will we
>find
>>> out when we get to heaven or hell? Remember there is a difference
between
>a
>>> disciple and a church member.
>>> >
>>> >He is coming!
>>> >
>>> >Jeremiah
>>> >
>>> >>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@UMDNJ.EDU> 09/27 3:25 PM >>>
>>> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>> >
>>> >Dear friends
>>> >
>>> >Few weeks we spoke about the need to reach out to professionals or the
>>> so-called middle class.
>>> >Here is my suggestion - cyber evangelism.
>>> >I suggest that we start a mailing list (and a web site) dedicated to
>>> reaching the UN-reached.
>>> >Instead of it been a discussion list, it will be a study/sermons list.
>That
>>> means that we will send out a sermon or a study once a week to this
list.
>>> This will be a like church service since most of them to not attend
>church.
>>> >Every week one of our members (SA-SDA members, especially those who are
>>> pastors) will prepare a brief homily to send to this list.
>>> >
>>> >My request to you.
>>> >1. Ask your non-Adventist friends, colleagues and relatives if they
will
>be
>>> interested in receiving our mails (one mail a week). Send me
>>> (masabatha@yahoo.com) the email addresses of those who are interested.
>>> >2. Send me your brief evangelistic sermons/ study materials/sermon
>ideas,
>>> in future I will request some of you to handle certain topics.
>>> >3. I am also looking for suggestions for the name of this new list/web
>site
>>> >4. Pray for the success of this evangelist outreach program
>>> >
>>> >Unlike SA-SDA, this will be a moderated list, only the moderators will
>be
>>> able to send out mails to this list. The recipients of the mails will
>have
>>> an opportunity to respond to the mails but the response will go to the
>>> moderators not to the list.
>>> >
>>> >I guess some of you have heard about cyber weddings, we will ask Pastor
>>> Papu to conduct cyber baptisms.
>>> >On a more serious note, Here is an opportunity for all us to
participate
>in
>>> evangelism. Few weeks ago somebody asked a question on how we can reach
>our
>>> colleagues, here is the answer. All you need to do is to ask for the
>email
>>> addresses of those who are interested. God will do the rest.
>>> >If the people won't go to church, then the church must go to the
people.
>>> >
>>> >I am very excited about this idea, I believe God will do miracles.
>>> >
>>> >Let's all pray for the success of this outreach plan and the outpouring
>of
>>> the Holy Spirit in the Cyber space.
>>> >
>>> >Go tell it to the mountains* that Jesus Christ is Lord!
>>> >
>>> >Jeremiah
>>> >
>>> >The King is even at the door!
>>> >====
>>> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>> >To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>> >
>>> >>The King is even at the door!
>>> >====
>>> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>> >To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>>
>>> > The King is even at the door!
>>> ====
>>> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>
>>>The King is even at the door!
>>====
>>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 16:23:50 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: The thief in the night experience
Jerry,
Your last part about stepping on SDA people's toes requires some close
scrutiny. I thank God for you especially in helping us to express ourselves
the way you do. May I just say to you that you should forgive us sometimes
as Adventists for behaving the way you described. However I think we should
teach ourselves to face challenges as Adventists. Unfortunately we somehow
"play the man and not the ball". It is major principle of our church to
respect other people's views. It is one principle we should encourage
ourselves to adhere to as we debate issues here on this site.
Thank you also for the reply about the three-fold salvation you have just
referred to.
God bless you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani [mailto:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 4:03 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] The thief in the night experience
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Jongimpi,
Thank you for this message.
Last week at our Wednesday prayer meeting we were talking about the mark of
the beast and the end times. There was much emphasis on the Sabbath (the
seal of God) and Sunday (the mark of the beast). This was not unusual; in
fact this is what Adventists do everywhere. There is this main emphasis on
Sunday, Sunday law and the juice information about Smart cards, bar coding
and the New World order. I do not think that there is anything wrong with
this, however as you correctly pointed out we seem to miss the real point,
the relationship with God.
Have you realized that when some news come out that the USA government is
about to implement some Sunday law or the Pope is calling for the
enforcement of Sunday, many us become very serious. But when the excitement
dies out, we go back to our old ways. What kind of religion is that? Is it
the mark of the Beast religion? We seem to have a stronger relationship with
the Mark than with Christ?
If we have a relationship with Christ it does not matter what Satan and the
papal system does, for Christ will never leave us
So, when I suggested that the end-time conflict is not about days, but about
worship and dominion, the majority of those in attendance were not very
happy.
The relationship with God, not the knowledge of the days (Sabbath or
Sunday), or the ability to do arithmetic (adding up to 666) will determine
whether we will stand or not.
Who shall be able to stand on that day? All of those who are standing today
will be able to stand then. If we never learn to stand today, we will not be
able to stand then. Adventist are strange people, they can't stand the pain
when somebody steps on their toes (petty church issues), yet they claim that
they will stand when faced death (Mark of the beast).
I agree, we all need Jesus (for ourselves) more than ever before! (Many a
times we need Jesus for everybody else except ourselves)
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 10/07 8:28 AM >>>
My Friends
Allow me to share some few thoughts with you, as always you are welcome to
disagree.
Christ warned that His return will be like a thief in the night. The
question is, is it possible for Seventh-day Adventists to experience the
thief in the night unreadiness for Christ's return? An average Adventist
knows about 666(hopefully), the death decree, plagues, Armageddon, how could
the coming of Christ ever surprise him?
What we have neglected is that,to be ready for the second coming of Christ
we must be ready for the second coming of the Holy Spirit, (Latter rain).
This is where most adventists are going to be caught unawares. The double
gathering that we often talk about, that is those under the banner of the
devil and those under Christ has nothing to do with the time to be ready.
The angel of Rev. 18 calls God's people out of Babylon, people who have
accepted the Holy Spirit, whose names are written from the Lamb's book of
life. They come out and begin to keep the Sabbath, but at the same time
those who have not accepted the Holy Spirit, though they are Adventists,
will come out of the church, for to them the church will be Babylon, of
course those who have accepted Christ will remain . They have lived a life
of hating the truth, now they have the chance to hate the church and
denounce it as fallen. To such Christ will come like a thief in the night.
The time to prepare is now, not tomorrow. The time of Trouble is not the
time to prepare but to stand on the foundation you have built over the
years.
Ready or not HE is coming
Jongimpi
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:33:03 +0200
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: ME, MYSELF, I
Hie Folks,
I've just subscribed to the discussion forum a few minutes ago and maybe
should take some moments to introduce myself. My name is Alvin Masarira,
male, early 30s, single, and originally from across the Limpopo
(Zimbabwe). I have just joined (as from July 99) the Department of Civil
Engineering of the University of Cape Town as a PostDoctoral Researcher
(in Structural Steel Engineering) but also do some lecturing. I studied
and lived in Germany for about 11 years (1987 - 1998) and spent another
1,5 years in the USA.
I am a dedicated Seventh Day Adventist and my faith and relationship
with Christ plays a very BIG role in my life (or at least I try to make
it THE decisive factor in all I do). I believe we as Adventist have been
called for a special purpose into existence and have a special message
for this world. But at the same time I believe God uses and is using
other Christians (of varoius denominations) to further His work and
bring His work to completion. Therefore I don't believe that we
Adventists have a reason to be "arrogant" (sorry for the term!!) and
think we are better than the Methodists, or Anglicans or Baptists etc.
We should be humble and be grateful for the light we have and always
remembering that "from whom much has been given will greater
accountability be expected".
That should surfice for now and I hope we will have exciting and
enriching discussions on this forum.
Wish everybody (who is in my time zone) a pleasant evening.
___________________________________________________
Dr. Alvin Masarira, Department of Civil Engineering
University of Cape Town, 7701 Cape Town, South Africa.
Tel.(+27)21-650-2585/4 ; Fax.(+27)21-689-7471
Email: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
___________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:50:20 -0600
From: The Easton's <s.easton@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: sabbath
I had some unsettling news during the weekend...
A friend of mine was talking with me about the ten commandments and stated that, of all the commandments.. Jesus reinstated them all EXCEPT keeping the sabbath holy. Jesus even got in trouble with the pharisiees on the Sabbath for not resting..... for healing and for picking wheat. He went on to explain that Jesus taught that we are now his temple and we are to take rest in Him.
As I was digging deeper into scripture about this....it seems to be true.
Anyone have any thoughts on this one?
San
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:54:01 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: ME, MYSELF, I
Alvin,
Welcome to the SA-SDA family, I am glad you found us or we found you. May be you can help to send the message across the Limpopo.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Jeremiah
>>> Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za> 10/11 11:33 AM >>>
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
Hie Folks,
I've just subscribed to the discussion forum a few minutes ago and maybe
should take some moments to introduce myself. My name is Alvin Masarira,
male, early 30s, single, and originally from across the Limpopo
(Zimbabwe). I have just joined (as from July 99) the Department of Civil
Engineering of the University of Cape Town as a PostDoctoral Researcher
(in Structural Steel Engineering) but also do some lecturing. I studied
and lived in Germany for about 11 years (1987 - 1998) and spent another
1,5 years in the USA.
I am a dedicated Seventh Day Adventist and my faith and relationship
with Christ plays a very BIG role in my life (or at least I try to make
it THE decisive factor in all I do). I believe we as Adventist have been
called for a special purpose into existence and have a special message
for this world. But at the same time I believe God uses and is using
other Christians (of varoius denominations) to further His work and
bring His work to completion. Therefore I don't believe that we
Adventists have a reason to be "arrogant" (sorry for the term!!) and
think we are better than the Methodists, or Anglicans or Baptists etc.
We should be humble and be grateful for the light we have and always
remembering that "from whom much has been given will greater
accountability be expected".
That should surfice for now and I hope we will have exciting and
enriching discussions on this forum.
Wish everybody (who is in my time zone) a pleasant evening.
___________________________________________________
Dr. Alvin Masarira, Department of Civil Engineering
University of Cape Town, 7701 Cape Town, South Africa.
Tel.(+27)21-650-2585/4 ; Fax.(+27)21-689-7471
Email: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
___________________________________________________
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 09:52:49 -0600
From: The Easton's <s.easton@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: The thief in the night experience
I believe the seal of God is the Holy Spirit in each of us from the time of "salvation" and the mark of the beast is going to be a computer chip or a tattoo..
San
Mashudu Ravhengani wrote:
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
> Jongimpi,
>
> Thank you for this message.
> Last week at our Wednesday prayer meeting we were talking about the mark of the beast and the end times. There was much emphasis on the Sabbath (the seal of God) and Sunday (the mark of the beast). This was not unusual; in fact this is what Adventists do everywhere. There is this main emphasis on Sunday, Sunday law and the juice information about Smart cards, bar coding and the New World order. I do not think that there is anything wrong with this, however as you correctly pointed out we seem to miss the real point, the relationship with God.
> Have you realized that when some news come out that the USA government is about to implement some Sunday law or the Pope is calling for the enforcement of Sunday, many us become very serious. But when the excitement dies out, we go back to our old ways. What kind of religion is that? Is it the mark of the Beast religion? We seem to have a stronger relationship with the Mark than with Christ?
> If we have a relationship with Christ it does not matter what Satan and the papal system does, for Christ will never leave us
> So, when I suggested that the end-time conflict is not about days, but about worship and dominion, the majority of those in attendance were not very happy.
> The relationship with God, not the knowledge of the days (Sabbath or Sunday), or the ability to do arithmetic (adding up to 666) will determine whether we will stand or not.
> Who shall be able to stand on that day? All of those who are standing today will be able to stand then. If we never learn to stand today, we will not be able to stand then. Adventist are strange people, they can't stand the pain when somebody steps on their toes (petty church issues), yet they claim that they will stand when faced death (Mark of the beast).
>
> I agree, we all need Jesus (for ourselves) more than ever before! (Many a times we need Jesus for everybody else except ourselves)
>
> Jeremiah
>
> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 10/07 8:28 AM >>>
> My Friends
>
> Allow me to share some few thoughts with you, as always you are welcome to disagree.
>
> Christ warned that His return will be like a thief in the night. The question is, is it possible for Seventh-day Adventists to experience the thief in the night unreadiness for Christ's return? An average Adventist knows about 666(hopefully), the death decree, plagues, Armageddon, how could the coming of Christ ever surprise him?
>
> What we have neglected is that,to be ready for the second coming of Christ we must be ready for the second coming of the Holy Spirit, (Latter rain). This is where most adventists are going to be caught unawares. The double gathering that we often talk about, that is those under the banner of the devil and those under Christ has nothing to do with the time to be ready. The angel of Rev. 18 calls God's people out of Babylon, people who have accepted the Holy Spirit, whose names are written from the Lamb's book of life. They come out and begin to keep the Sabbath, but at the same time those who have not accepted the Holy Spirit, though they are Adventists, will come out of the church, for to them the church will be Babylon, of course those who have accepted Christ will remain . They have lived a life of hating the truth, now they have the chance to hate the church and denounce it as fallen. To such Christ will come like a thief in the night.
>
> The time to prepare is now, not tomorrow. The time of Trouble is not the time to prepare but to stand on the foundation you have built over the years.
>
> Ready or not HE is coming
>
> Jongimpi
>
>
>
> > The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:52:27 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: The thief in the night experience
San,
I think we must never loose sight of the real battle, the battle is between truth and error, between worshiping God or Satan. The war is not over technology or days. We must realize that there is nothing wrong in having computer chip on your hand or on your forehead. The war is neither physical nor material; it is a spiritual war. Having a computer chip on your forehead only because wrong if God said, thou shall not put the computer chip on your forehead.
Computer chip or no computer chip, the final crisis is on choosing God or Satan. And I believe that this choice will be very clear as we come to the end of time. Are we going to follow what God said or are going to follow the counterfeit that the Devil has created?
Talking as one who is in the field of Information Technology, if ever that means anything, I believe that the whole talk about the mark of the beast been a computer chip is a ploy that the enemy is using to divert us from the real issues, the great controversy, the battle between truth and error.
We need to distinguish between the real battle and tools that can be used in the battle. I believe that the Devil will take advantage of the technology to enforce his policies, but technology is not the mark. I believe that Christians will also continue to use technology to spread the good news. But technology is not the seal.
Mark and Seal
I agree, the Bible says that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. However, we need to understand that the seal and the mark also represent a sign or an outward display of some kind. Look at the definition of the mark or a seal.
I therefore believe in what the Adventist church has always taught that the Sabbath is a sign or the seal of God, and that Sunday is the sign or the mark of the beast. In fact there are countless documentation where the papal system have boasted that change of Sabbath to Sunday is their mark that proves that they have the authority to change laws. The prophecies of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 also come to the same conclusion.
My point.
The point I was trying to make in my early mail was that as much as we know what is the mark of the beast, that knowledge won't help us. It is the relationship with Christ that will make a difference in the end time.
Signs of times are everywhere!
Jeremiah
>>> "The Easton's" <s.easton@home.com> 10/11 11:52 AM >>>
From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
I believe the seal of God is the Holy Spirit in each of us from the time of "salvation" and the mark of the beast is going to be a computer chip or a tattoo..
San
Mashudu Ravhengani wrote:
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
> Jongimpi,
>
> Thank you for this message.
> Last week at our Wednesday prayer meeting we were talking about the mark of the beast and the end times. There was much emphasis on the Sabbath (the seal of God) and Sunday (the mark of the beast). This was not unusual; in fact this is what Adventists do everywhere. There is this main emphasis on Sunday, Sunday law and the juice information about Smart cards, bar coding and the New World order. I do not think that there is anything wrong with this, however as you correctly pointed out we seem to miss the real point, the relationship with God.
> Have you realized that when some news come out that the USA government is about to implement some Sunday law or the Pope is calling for the enforcement of Sunday, many us become very serious. But when the excitement dies out, we go back to our old ways. What kind of religion is that? Is it the mark of the Beast religion? We seem to have a stronger relationship with the Mark than with Christ?
> If we have a relationship with Christ it does not matter what Satan and the papal system does, for Christ will never leave us
> So, when I suggested that the end-time conflict is not about days, but about worship and dominion, the majority of those in attendance were not very happy.
> The relationship with God, not the knowledge of the days (Sabbath or Sunday), or the ability to do arithmetic (adding up to 666) will determine whether we will stand or not.
> Who shall be able to stand on that day? All of those who are standing today will be able to stand then. If we never learn to stand today, we will not be able to stand then. Adventist are strange people, they can't stand the pain when somebody steps on their toes (petty church issues), yet they claim that they will stand when faced death (Mark of the beast).
>
> I agree, we all need Jesus (for ourselves) more than ever before! (Many a times we need Jesus for everybody else except ourselves)
>
> Jeremiah
>
> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 10/07 8:28 AM >>>
> My Friends
>
> Allow me to share some few thoughts with you, as always you are welcome to disagree.
>
> Christ warned that His return will be like a thief in the night. The question is, is it possible for Seventh-day Adventists to experience the thief in the night unreadiness for Christ's return? An average Adventist knows about 666(hopefully), the death decree, plagues, Armageddon, how could the coming of Christ ever surprise him?
>
> What we have neglected is that,to be ready for the second coming of Christ we must be ready for the second coming of the Holy Spirit, (Latter rain). This is where most adventists are going to be caught unawares. The double gathering that we often talk about, that is those under the banner of the devil and those under Christ has nothing to do with the time to be ready. The angel of Rev. 18 calls God's people out of Babylon, people who have accepted the Holy Spirit, whose names are written from the Lamb's book of life. They come out and begin to keep the Sabbath, but at the same time those who have not accepted the Holy Spirit, though they are Adventists, will come out of the church, for to them the church will be Babylon, of course those who have accepted Christ will remain . They have lived a life of hating the truth, now they have the chance to hate the church and denounce it as fallen. To such Christ will come like a thief in the night.
>
> The time to prepare is now, not tomorrow. The time of Trouble is not the time to prepare but to stand on the foundation you have built over the years.
>
> Ready or not HE is coming
>
> Jongimpi
>
>
>
> > The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:24:22 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: sabbath
San,
I have never heard about the 'reinstated laws' before,
Anyway, you might want to view the internet debate the I had with a certain Sunday keeper about a year ago.
Here is the link:
http://www.TAGnet.org/masabatha/sdaatt2.html
If you are still interested I have tons of material on this subject that I can forward to you.
This calls for the endurance of the saints...
Jeremiah
>>> "The Easton's" <s.easton@home.com> 10/11 11:50 AM >>>
From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
I had some unsettling news during the weekend...
A friend of mine was talking with me about the ten commandments and stated that, of all the commandments.. Jesus reinstated them all EXCEPT keeping the sabbath holy. Jesus even got in trouble with the pharisiees on the Sabbath for not resting..... for healing and for picking wheat. He went on to explain that Jesus taught that we are now his temple and we are to take rest in Him.
As I was digging deeper into scripture about this....it seems to be true.
Anyone have any thoughts on this one?
San
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 14:11:26 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: sabbath
San,
Here is another Sabbath presentation that someone sent me:
http://members.aol.com/Gen2v3/LordsDay.html
Jeremiah
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:13:35 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: ME, MYSELF, I
Alvin
I must apologise for not fulfilling the promise I made on Sabbath, I was
nowhere near a computer yesterday. Having said that, you are welcome and
we look forward to your humble contributions, we are a big family here, and
you are a part of that family. May God bless you in all your endeavours and
may His name be glorified.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, October 11, 1999 5:37 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] ME, MYSELF, I
>From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
>
>Hie Folks,
>
>I've just subscribed to the discussion forum a few minutes ago and maybe
>should take some moments to introduce myself. My name is Alvin Masarira,
>male, early 30s, single, and originally from across the Limpopo
>(Zimbabwe). I have just joined (as from July 99) the Department of Civil
>Engineering of the University of Cape Town as a PostDoctoral Researcher
>(in Structural Steel Engineering) but also do some lecturing. I studied
>and lived in Germany for about 11 years (1987 - 1998) and spent another
>1,5 years in the USA.
>I am a dedicated Seventh Day Adventist and my faith and relationship
>with Christ plays a very BIG role in my life (or at least I try to make
>it THE decisive factor in all I do). I believe we as Adventist have been
>called for a special purpose into existence and have a special message
>for this world. But at the same time I believe God uses and is using
>other Christians (of varoius denominations) to further His work and
>bring His work to completion. Therefore I don't believe that we
>Adventists have a reason to be "arrogant" (sorry for the term!!) and
>think we are better than the Methodists, or Anglicans or Baptists etc.
>We should be humble and be grateful for the light we have and always
>remembering that "from whom much has been given will greater
>accountability be expected".
>That should surfice for now and I hope we will have exciting and
>enriching discussions on this forum.
>Wish everybody (who is in my time zone) a pleasant evening.
>___________________________________________________
>Dr. Alvin Masarira, Department of Civil Engineering
>University of Cape Town, 7701 Cape Town, South Africa.
>Tel.(+27)21-650-2585/4 ; Fax.(+27)21-689-7471
>Email: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
>___________________________________________________
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:45:16 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: ME, MYSELF, I
Jongimpi,
I have been worried about a question that pertains to our self condemnation
as Adventists. When we get some challenges we normally like to refer to
other people of other denominations. I have always believed that we are or
must be unique and of special character in regard to the reason for which
God called the Adventist church into existence.
When we refer to other denominations when talking about ourselves, for
example evangelism, we would refer to the way Jehovah's Witnesses do their
work and how successful they have been. Specifically, when Alvin refers to
our "arrogance" as against other denominations this corroborates what I have
been thinking about. What troubles me most is that I had to advise our
church board this past weekend not to focus on how other Jehovah's Witnesses
function, but look at how our programs function around the world for soul
winning purposes.
Please help me about this one because I feel it has become abundant practice
in our church.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 11:14 AM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] ME, MYSELF, I
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Alvin
I must apologise for not fulfilling the promise I made on Sabbath, I was
nowhere near a computer yesterday. Having said that, you are welcome and
we look forward to your humble contributions, we are a big family here, and
you are a part of that family. May God bless you in all your endeavours and
may His name be glorified.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, October 11, 1999 5:37 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] ME, MYSELF, I
>From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
>
>Hie Folks,
>
>I've just subscribed to the discussion forum a few minutes ago and maybe
>should take some moments to introduce myself. My name is Alvin Masarira,
>male, early 30s, single, and originally from across the Limpopo
>(Zimbabwe). I have just joined (as from July 99) the Department of Civil
>Engineering of the University of Cape Town as a PostDoctoral Researcher
>(in Structural Steel Engineering) but also do some lecturing. I studied
>and lived in Germany for about 11 years (1987 - 1998) and spent another
>1,5 years in the USA.
>I am a dedicated Seventh Day Adventist and my faith and relationship
>with Christ plays a very BIG role in my life (or at least I try to make
>it THE decisive factor in all I do). I believe we as Adventist have been
>called for a special purpose into existence and have a special message
>for this world. But at the same time I believe God uses and is using
>other Christians (of varoius denominations) to further His work and
>bring His work to completion. Therefore I don't believe that we
>Adventists have a reason to be "arrogant" (sorry for the term!!) and
>think we are better than the Methodists, or Anglicans or Baptists etc.
>We should be humble and be grateful for the light we have and always
>remembering that "from whom much has been given will greater
>accountability be expected".
>That should surfice for now and I hope we will have exciting and
>enriching discussions on this forum.
>Wish everybody (who is in my time zone) a pleasant evening.
>___________________________________________________
>Dr. Alvin Masarira, Department of Civil Engineering
>University of Cape Town, 7701 Cape Town, South Africa.
>Tel.(+27)21-650-2585/4 ; Fax.(+27)21-689-7471
>Email: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
>___________________________________________________
>
>>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:17:25 +0200
From: Alvin Masarira <amasar@xxx.xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RELATIONSHIP WITH OTHER BELIEVERS
Hie sa-sda,
Since I don't know the situation in Bangisi's church I can not comment on
specific issues there but the relationship between the different denominations
has always been a complicated issue. Each denomination claims to be the "right"
one and we Adventists too are not immune to this kind of mentality. But I
believe that God's church is made up of many people from everywhere. We can
learn a lot of things from other denominations and I believe that in certain
aspects they are way ahead of us. God's Spirit is also present there. In case
some haven't read it, there is a small book written by Gerge Vandeman (an SDA
Pastor, Evangelist, Author, Radio and TV Speaker) some years ago entitled "What
I like About Other.....". In this book
he shows what he finds very good in other churches and what we can learn from
them. Church history also tell us that the Adventist Movement is a product of
other "movements and churches" which were there centuries before 1844 -1863. I
am thankful for people like Calvin, Martin Luther etc. They were not Adventists
by the way. Inspite of all this we as Adventists are a unique people (as Luther
was unique in his time). We have been called to be bearers of "special segments
of God's truth". We do not have the "whole truth" and I am willing to learn and
accept more truth and light from God, and sometimes He uses christians of other
denominations to teach us. The danger comes when we close our eyes and think
that anything which comes from anybody else other than Adventists is wrong. Of
course we should use God's word as the standard of measurement and testing the
validity of everything.
The Apostle Paul says "Now I/we know in part...." (1Cor.13:12). Our knowledge is
just a fragment NOT the whole truth and this applies to our theology as well as
to other aspects of adventism.
Greetings from the Cape.
Alvin.
___________________________________________________
Dr. Alvin Masarira, Department of Civil Engineering
University of Cape Town, 7701 Cape Town, South Africa.
Tel.(+27)21-650-2585/4 ; Fax.(+27)21-689-7471
Email: Alvin Masarira <amasar@eng.uct.ac.za>
___________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:12:43 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Sabbath
San,
As to how far deeper you dug about the Ten Commandments is not very clear on
your e-mail. All I can say is that the "reinstatement of the Ten
Commandments" theory is foreign to the Sabbath theology.
When one reads the books of Luke and Matthew one discovers that the
controversy about the Sabbath was not about the validity thereof, but about
the manner of keeping the Sabbath. The healing that took place on the
Sabbath and the food that was given on the Sabbath clarify how the Sabbath
should be regarded. I do not remember anywhere Jesus nullifying or
reinstating the Sabbath, but I know of many places where Jesus showed how
Sabbathkeeping should be like. At the end I know that the Sabbath will be
kept in heaven. As the Sabbath was there at creation(Gen.2:1-3), during the
exodus of the Israelites from Egypt to the Promised Land, during Isaia's
time(Isaia 58), during Jesus time(Luke 4:16), and during Paul's time(Acts
17:2), it is not surprising that Isaia would foresee that there will be
weekly Sabbathkeeping when God set up the new heaven and earth. Anyway how
could James write(James 2:10) and say if you break one commandment you are
guilty of all, if the Sabbath was excluded from the Ten Commandments?
I have attached a comprehensive article by Dr. Bacchoicchi for further
clarification.
-----Original Message-----
From: The Easton's [mailto:s.easton@home.com]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 5:50 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] sabbath
From: The Easton's <s.easton@home.com>
I had some unsettling news during the weekend...
A friend of mine was talking with me about the ten commandments and stated
that, of all the commandments.. Jesus reinstated them all EXCEPT keeping the
sabbath holy. Jesus even got in trouble with the pharisiees on the Sabbath
for not resting..... for healing and for picking wheat. He went on to
explain that Jesus taught that we are now his temple and we are to take rest
in Him.
As I was digging deeper into scripture about this....it seems to be true.
Anyone have any thoughts on this one?
San
The King is even at the door!
====
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ENDTIME ISSUES No. 28: THE GOOD NEWS OF THE SABBATH:
PERFECT CREATION, COMPLETE REDEMPTION, AND FINAL RESTORATIONS
Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Professor of Theology, Andrews University
Dear Members of the Endtime Issues Newsletter:
The last newsletter (no. 27) on the relationship between Christ and
the law, generated some healthy discussion. I would like to come back to
some of the questions, possibly in conjunction with Elder Will Eva's
response which will be posted when I receive it.
This newsletter was supposed to carry the third installment of our
study on "The Bible and Alcohol," dealing specifically with "Jesus and
Wine." What caused me to change my mind is the theme of this week
(September 11-17, 1999) Sabbath School lesson: "Sabbath and Redemption in
Creation." The connection between the Sabbath and redemption, is seldom
explored in Adventist literature. The few Adventist studies that address
this important subject, usually do it in a rather superficial way. The
lesson of this week is no exception. The result is that in Adventist
thought the Sabbath is primarily connected with the commemoration of the
completion and perfection of creation. The redemptive meaning and function
of the Sabbath is largely unknown. Yet, it is the redemptive meaning of the
Sabbath which makes the observance of the day particularly meaningful to
our Christian life.
It is important to realize that the meaning of the Sabbath has
grown with the unfolding of salvation history. From the memorial of an
originally perfect creation, the Sabbath became the symbol of messianic
redemption, and of ultimate restoration. A fuller understanding of how the
Sabbath is linked to the Savior is indespensable for celebrating on and
through this day, not only the fact that Lord has created us perfectly, but
also that He has redeemed us completely and that He will restore us
ultimately.
It is my sincere desire to enrich our understanding and experience
of the Sabbath that has caused me to depart from my original plan, and
focus instead on the theme of this week Sabbath School lesson.
Incidentally, God willing, I will have the privilege to study this lesson
next Sabbath, September 18, with our fellow believers in Christchurch,
South New Zealand. I look forward to worship and fellowship with our
believers and to meet our subscribers in that beautiful island.
The New Zealand/Australian lecture tour will keep me away from home
for 25 days. This means that the next newsletter will not be posted until
toward he end of October. For some of you this will be a welcome relief,
because you told me that you need time to catch up with the lengthy studies
already received.
UPDATE REPORT ON RECENT SABBATH DEVELOPMENTS
The Sabbath reports that have come to my attention during the past
few weeks are both positive and negative. On the negative side, I have
received messages from members and pastors who share with me their concern
over members of their church who have been influenced by the new
anti-Sabbath literature produced by former sabbatarians. It is evident that
the so-called "New Covenant theology" which negates the continuity and
validity of the Sabbath for Christians today, is finding it way in our
churches.
For example, Pastor Joe Mallison from Hollister, California,
emailed me a message about an influential Adventist medical doctor of his
church. He says: "I just found out a few days ago that he [the medical
doctor] has been studying with a protestant pastor who shared Dale
Ratzlaff's book [The Sabbath in Crisis] on the Sabbath with him. Now the
doctor is going to the other church full time and is very involved in their
fellowship. I spoke to him and he says that, when he finishes Ratzlaff's
book, he is going to read one from a man named Bacchiocchi about the
Sabbath." (used by permission).
Pastor Mallision ordered immediately 22 copies of my latest book
The Sabbath Under Crossfire, one of which he already gave to the doctor who
has promised to contact me after reading the book. I look forward to help
this doctor. Let us keep him in our prayers. Feel free to contact us if
you or your church need copies of The Sabbath Under Crossfire. You will
find that the book provides a comprehensive and compelling Biblical
refutation of the ani-Sabbath arguments, besides helping people to discover
the Sabbath as a day of joyful celebration of God's creative and redemptive
love.
On the positive side, I received an encouraging email message from
an Adventist sister serving in China. She says that someone received a copy
of The Sabbath Under Crossfire which is already translated and distributed
into Chinese. "Because of this," she writes," "the Holy Spirit has been
working and some Sunday Christians have already moved to to the SDA Church."
It might be of interest to some of our members to learn that in
China there is a well-known Sabbatarian church, called "The True Jesus
Church." It was established in 1917 in Beijing, China, by Paul Wei,
Ling-Shen Chang, and Barnabas Chung, who had been affiliated with
Sundaykeeping denominations. They claim to have received the complete truth
regarding salvation through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Sabbath observance is one of their fundamental beliefs, as stated
in the list of their basic beliefs: "The Sabbath Day, the seventh day of
the week (Saturday), is a holy day, blessed and sanctified by God. It is to
be observed under the Lord's grace for the commemoration of God's creation
and redemption, and with the hope of eternal rest."
Although the True Jesus Church originated in China, its mission has
spread to the South Pacific, South-East Asia, and other parts of the world,
including Russia. At present it has approximately 1,000,000 members in
China and 79,000 members in the free world. For further information, you
may wish to visit their web site which you can access simply by typing in
your brouser: True Jesus Church.
THE NEW WEB SITE
My new web site found at http://www.biblicalperspectives.com , has
now been in operation for the past two weeks. The counter, which was
installed this past weekend, indicates that about 100 people a day are
visiting the web site. I have posted in the web site the major chapters
from each of my 15 books for a total of about 2000 pages. Feel free to
visit and use my web site at any time you are looking for Biblical research
on vital doctrines.
THE GOOD NEWS OF THE SABBATH
A PERSONAL NOTE: For the sake of those whose internet provider rejects
documents longer than 50K, I am not posting the notes of this essay. You
can find the footnotes apparatus as well as a more comprehensive
presentation of the theological meanings of the Sabbath, in chapter 5 of
Divine Rest for Human Restlessness, and in chapter 4 of The Sabbath Under
Crossfire.
You may feel that this Bible study lacks balance, because it gives
far more coverage to the redemptive meaning of the Sabbath, than to its
creational and restorational aspects. The reason for this intentional
unbalance is the simple fact that the linkage between the Sabbath and the
Savior is largely unknown to most Adventists. Thus, I felt that this
aspect of the Sabbath needed to be explained more fully.
INTRODUCTION
The Sabbath means different things to different people. To some
the Sabbath is Good News of joyful celebration of God's creative and
redemptive love. To others it is Bad News of restrictive impositions
and/or bondage to the law.
The legalist sees the Sabbath primarily as a commandment that must
be observed in order to be saved. He views the interruption that the
Sabbath brings to his life like a bitter medicine that must be swallowed in
order to get well. Consequently for the legalist the Sabbath is not a day
of celebration of God's creative and redemptive love, but rather a day of
gloom and frustration because of the things that cannot be done on this
day. He counts the hours of the Sabbath like the astronaut counts the
seconds preceding the firing of his spacecraft: 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3,
2, 1, 0. Sunset! Take off to some exciting activity to burn up the
repression and depression of the Sabbath.
The materialist views the Sabbath (or Sunday for that matter) as a
day of "solemn" rest but to himself rather than to the Lord. It is a day
to seek personal profit or pleasure rather than divine peace and presence.
The antinomian interprets Sabbathkeeping as a sign of bondage to
the law. He interprets the freedom of the Gospel as freedom to keep the
Sabbath on any weekday (pan-Sabbatism). But the theory that each weekday
is a Sabbath in practice results on each Sabbath being a week day.
Ultimately no real worship is offered to God because nothing really matters.
The Christian who loves the Savior experiences the Sabbath as a day
of joyful celebration: a day to celebrate the Good News of God's
marvellous accomplishments both in the world and in his/her personal life.
It is a human desire to wish to celebrate and share with others the good
news of unusual achievements. Players and funs celebrate the winning of a
game. A father celebrates the birth of his new born. Students celebrate
their graduation. A couple celebrates with their friends their engagement
or wedding. A Christian celebrates on the Sabbath the Good News of what
God has done, of what He is doing and of what He will do for His people.
In Hebrews 4:2,6 the Sabbath rest is twice presented as the "Good
News" or the Gospel (same verb-evangelizo) of God's rest for His people.
Yet for some persons the Sabbath is not Good News but bad news. Why is the
Sabbath viewed and experienced differently by different persons?
Principally because of different understandings and acceptance of the
message of the Sabbath. Obviously a person cannot joyfully celebrate the
Sabbath if he or she does not know what is there to celebrate.
Our family landed in the USA on July 4, 1974, the day when
Americans celebrate the signing of their Declaration of Independence. We
needed to clear our car through customs but everything was closed. We
spent that day in a motel in a mood of frustration rather than enjoying the
spirit of celebration. Why? Primarily because we did not fully understand
and accept the significance of the event. Frankly, we were more interested
in the signing of our custom declaration than in the signing of the
American declaration of independence. In the same way, a person who does
not understand and accept the Good News of the Sabbath, cannot joyfully
celebrate the Sabbath and experience its blessings.
To help us understand and experience more fully the message and
blessings of the Sabbath, we shall briefly examine in this newsletter the
three basic glad tidings which the Sabbath contains and proclaims: (1)
Perfect Creation, (2) Complete Redemption, (3) Final Restoration. A more
comprehensive study of these messages is found in my books Divine Rest for
Human Restlessness and The Sabbath Under Crossfire. Greater coverage is
given to the redemptive meaning and function of the Sabbath, since this
aspect of the Sabbath is largely ignored in Adventist literature.
1. THE SABBATH: GOOD NEWS OF PERFECT CREATION
The first good news the Sabbath proclaims is that God created this
world and all its creatures in a perfect and complete manner. This
message is first presented in a most emphatic way in the creation story
(Gen 1:1-2:3) by means of three effective literary devices: (1) the use of
the number seven, (2) the emphatic use of words, and (3) the imagery of the
rest of God.
The Number Seven. The number seven is used both to structure the
creation story in seven parts, that is, according to the seven days of
Creation, and to relate many details of the story. The creation story is
arranged in seven sections, each divided by the recurring sentence "and
there was evening and there was morning, one day . . . a second day. . . a
third day." The climactic moment is the seventh day which is repeated 3
times (Gen 2:2-3) to emphasize its function as the goal, conclusion,
perfection of the whole creation.
Several details of the creation are also given in seven or
multiples. For example, in Hebrew, there are seven words in Genesis 1:1
and fourteen-twice seven-in verse two. The name of God (Elohim) occurs
thirty five times, that is five times seven; earth ('eres) twenty one
times, that is three times seven; light ('or) occurs seven times in the
account of the fourth day (Gen 1:14-18); the expression it was good also
occurs seven times (the last time is very good-Gen 1:31).
The structure as well as many of the details of the creation story
are based upon the number seven and its multiples, because the number seven
signifies totality, completion and perfection. Thus its repeated use in
the creation story heightens the role of the seventh day as the memorial of
God's complete and perfect creation.
The Emphatic use of Words. In the account of the establishment of
the Sabbath given in Genesis 2:1-3, four words have the highest frequency,
namely, God, Seventh Day, Work, Done. Each of these words occurs three
times, because they are central to the message of the passage, namely, that
God on the Seventh Day proclaimed His work done, done, done.
The Imagery of the Rest of God. To dramatize the perfection and
completion of His creation, the Scripture tells us that God rested (Gen
2:2-3). Obviously God was not tired. God "does not faint or grow weary"
(Is 40:28). In fact, the Hebrew verb (shabat) does not mean that God took
a rest to recover from exhaustion but rather that "He stopped or ceased
creating." Why? To testify by this dramatic action-by desisting from
creating-that He regarded His creation "very good" and perfectly
satisfying. There was no need for additional touches to improve His
workmanship, because all came up to His expectations.
The first glad tidings the Sabbath proclaims is then a message of
reassurance from God that this world and all its creatures came into
existence not in a deformed state by chance but in a perfect way by the
personal act of God. This message is indeed Good News. It gives us the
reassurance that our ancestral roots are good because they are rooted in
God Himself from creation to eternity. It reassures us that in spite of
its apparent futility and tragedy, our life has meaning, value, and hope
because it proceeds from and moves toward a glorious destiny with God.
2. THE SABBATH: GOOD NEWS OF COMPLETE REDEMPTION
A second significant message of glad tidings the Sabbath proclaims
is that God has redeemed us completely through Jesus Christ. The human
heart longs for a constant assurance of divine redemption from the reality
of sin and death. We want to be reassured that God has indeed saved us. A
vital function of the Sabbath in the history of salvation has been to
provide this reassurance of divine redemption.
In the Old Testament the Sabbath served to nourish the hope and
faith of God's people in the messianic redemption to come. In the New
Testament it enables believers to experience the reality of the salvation
which has come, while nourishing the hope in the future restoration rest
that awaits the people of God (Heb 4:9). For the sake of brevity, we will
consider only few of the Sabbath themes that have helped believers to
understand and experience the reality of redemption. A fuller treatment
of this subject is found in chapter 4 of THE SABBATH UNDER CROSSFIRE. The
chapter is entitled "The Sabbath and the Savior." A thoughtful reading of
this chapter will help you to appreciate more fully the redemptive meaning
and function of the Sabbath.
The Sabbath and Salvation in the Old Testament
In Old Testament times the Sabbath served not only to provide
personal rest and liberation from the hardship of work and social
injustices, but also to nourish the hope for a future Messianic peace,
prosperity, and redemption. The latter function was apparently inspired by
the role of the Sabbath in God's original creation.
Genesis provides no information on the actual observance of the
Sabbath by Adam and Eve before their expulsion from the Garden of Eden.
Yet the picture of perfection and satisfaction (note the sevenfold
repetition of the phrase "it was good") it portrays, especially through the
divine blessing and sanctification of the seventh day (Gen 2:3), could
easily offer to believers the basis for a vision of the Messianic age.
The parallels and equivalences between the Sabbath of Genesis,
Adam's First Day after his creation, and the Last Days of the Messianic
age, though not always explicitly made, are implicitly present in the
Biblical and extrabiblical sources.
Sabbath Peace and Harmony. The peace and harmony that existed
between Adam and the animals at the creation Sabbath will be restored in
the Messianic age when "the wolf shall dwell with the lamb and the leopard
shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling
together, and a little child shall lead them" (Is 11:6). At that time,
according to the same prophet, "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of
God as the waters cover the sea" (Is 11:9).3 This vision of the earth full
of peace and of the knowledge of God in the Last Days may well have been
inspired by the view of the First Days, of which the Sabbath is the epitome.
The latter is suggested by those rabbinical Sabbath regulations
which prohibited killing insects or carrying weapons on the Sabbath because
the latter represents a foretaste of the world to come. Such a vision of
the world to come was inspired by the primordial Sabbath, a day of peace
and harmony between the human and sub-human creation.
Sabbath Delight. The delight and joy of the Edenic Sabbath
inspired also the prophetic vision of the Messianic age. Theodore Friedman
notes that "two of the three passages in which Isaiah refers to the Sabbath
are linked by the prophet with the end of days (Is 56:1-7; 58:13-14;
66:20-24) . . . it is no mere coincidence that Isaiah employs the words
'delight' (oneg) and 'honor' (kavod) in his description of both the Sabbath
and the end of days (58:13-'And thou shalt call the Sabbath delight . . .
and honor it'; 66:11-'And you shall delight in the glow of its honor').
The implication is clear. The delight and joy that will mark the end of
days is made available here and not by the Sabbath."
Sabbath delight is expressed in the Jewish tradition by kindling
lights on that day. This act, a prerogative of the Jewish woman, is
interpreted as symbolic of the extraordinary light that God caused to shine
out for 36 hours in consideration for the Sabbath, that is, from Friday
morning to Saturday night.
The redemptive role of the primordial Sabbath in the Jewish
tradition is impressive. Being viewed as the symbol of primordial
redemption from chaos to a perfect cosmos, the Sabbath could effectively
typify the future Messianic restoration. The tradition of kindling lights
on the Sabbath was symbolically linked both to the supernatural light that
shone during the first Sabbath upon Adam as an assurance of salvation and
of the extraordinary light of the Messianic age.
The prophets envision the appearance of refulgent light during the
latter days: "Moreover the light of the moon will be as the light of the
sun, and the light of the sun will be sevenfold, as the light of the seven
days" (Is 30:26). The comparison with "the light of the seven days" is
presumably an allusion to the seven days of creation, which, according to
an ancient Midrash (Jewish commentary), were bathed by extraordinary light
more brilliant than the sun.
The prophetic vision of the extraordinary light of the Messianic
age (Zech 14:7) most probably derives from the notion of the supernatural
light experienced by Adam on the first Sabbath-light which, according to
Jewish tradition, disappeared at the close of the creation Sabbath because
of his disobedience, but which is to reappear in the Messianic age.
Sabbath Rest. The theme of Sabbath rest (menuhah) which to "the
biblical mind," as Abraham Joshua Heschel explains, "is the same as
happiness and stillness, as peace and harmony," has served as an effective
typology of the Messianic age, often known as the "end of days" or
"world-to-come."
In the Old Testament the notion of "rest" is utilized to express
both national and messianic aspirations. As a national aspiration, the
Sabbath rest served to typify a peaceful life in a land of rest (Deut 12:9;
25:19; Is 14:3), where the king would give to the people "rest from all
enemies" (2 Sam 7:1) and where God would find His "resting place" among His
people and especially in His sanctuary at Zion (2 Chron 6:41; 1 Chron
23:25; Ps 132:8, 13, 14; Is 66:1).
The connection between Sabbath rest and national rest is found not
only in rabbinical literture, but also in Hebrews 4:4, 6, 8, where the
author speaks of the creation Sabbath rest as the symbol of the promised
entrance into the land of Canaan. Because of disobedience the wilderness
generation "failed to enter" (v. 6) into the land of rest typified by the
Sabbath.
The fact that the blessings of the Sabbath rest were never realized
as a political condition of rest and peace, challenged God's people to
look for their future fulfillment at and through the coming of the Messiah.
In the Jewish literature we find numerous examples where the Sabbath rest
and the septenary structure of time are used to signify the rest, peace,
and redemption of the messianic age.
For example, the Babylonian Talmud says "Our Rabbis taught: at the
conclusion of the Sabbath the son of David will come. Rabbi Joseph
demurred: But so many Sabbaths have passed, yet has he not come!" The age
of the Messiah is often described as a time of Sabbatical rest. At the end
of the Mishnah Tamid we read: "A Psalm, a song for the Sabbath day-a song
for the time to come, for the day that is all Sabbath rest in the eternal
life." The rest experience of the Sabbath served to nourish the hope of
the future Messianic peace and rest. The messianic redemption came to be
viewed, as stated in the Mishnah, as "all Sabbath and rest in the life
everlasting."
Sabbath Liberation. The freedom, release, and liberation which the
weekly and annual Sabbaths were designed to grant to every member of the
Hebrew society, also have served as effective types of Messianic redemption.
In the Deuteronomic version of the Fourth Commandment, the Sabbath
is explicitly linked to the Exodus liberation by means of the "remembrance
clause": "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt,
and the Lord your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an
outstretched arm; therefore, the Lord your God commanded you to keep the
Sabbath" (Deut 5:15).
The connection between the Sabbath and the Exodus deliverance may
explain why the Sabbath became ideologically connected with the Passover,
the annual celebration of the deliverance from Egypt. In a sense, the
Sabbath came to be viewed as a "little Passover."
The Sabbath was a real liberator of the Hebrew society by providing
a release from the hardship of life and social inequalities, not only every
seventh day, but also every seventh year, on the Sabbatical year (Lev
25:8), and every "seven sabbaths of years," on the jubilee year (Lev 25:8).
At these annual institutions the Sabbath truly became the liberator of the
oppressed in the Hebrew society. The land was to lie fallow, to provide
free produce for the dispossed and animals. The slaves were emancipated and
the debts owed by fellow citizens were remitted. Though seldom observed,
these annual Sabbaths served to announce the future liberation and
redemption to be brought about by the Messiah. One reason for the messianic
function of the Sabbath years is to be found in their messianic features.
For example, the annual Sabbaths promised release from personal
debts and slavery. Such a release provided an effective imagery to typify
the expected Messianic deliverance (Is 61:1-3, 7; 40:2).19 In his
dissertation on The Jubilary Theology of the Gospel of Luke, Robert Sloan
shows how the New Testament concept of forgiveness ("aphesis") is derived
largely from the release from financial indebtedness and social injustices
of the annual Sabbaths. These are referred to as "the release," "the
Lord's release," "the year of release" (Deut 15:1, 2, 9; 31:10; Lev 25:10).
In the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) the
Hebrew term for "release" deror, is translated as aphesis-"release," which
is the New Testament word for "forgiveness." The Lord's Prayer's phrase
"forgive us our debts" (Matt 6:12) derives from the release from financial
indebedness of the annual Sabbaths. The sabbatical release from financial
endebtedness and social injustices came to be viewed as the prefiguration
of the future messianic release from the moral endebtedness of sin.
An example is Isaiah 61:1-3 where the prophet employs the imagery
of the sabbatical release to describe the mission of the Messiah, who would
bring jubilary amnesty and release from captivity. Soon we shall see how
Christ utilized this very imagery of the sabbatical release to announce and
explain the nature of His redemptive mission.
Sabbatical Structure of Time. The unique Messianic features of the
Sabbath years inspired also the use of the sabbatical structure of time to
measure the waiting time of Messianic redemption. Some scholars call this
phenomenon "sabbatical Messianism" or "chronomessianism.."
The classical place of Sabbatical Messianism is found in Daniel 9,
where two Sabbatical periods are given. The first consists of the70 years
prophecy (Jer 29:10) regarding the time to national restoration of the Jews
(Dan 9:3-19) and is made up of 10 sabbatical years (10 x 7). The second
period consists of "seventy weeks (shabuim)"-technically "seventy
sabbatical cycles"-which lead to Messianic redemption (Dan 9:24-27). This
sabbatical messianism is frequently found in later Jewish literature. For
example, the Talmud says: "Elijah said to Rab Judah . . . 'The world shall
exist not less than eighty-five jubilees, and in the last jubilee the son
of David will come.'"
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