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There are 3 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. RE: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
From: Viwe Jakavula <viwe.jakavula@xxxxxxx.xx.xxx
2. Re: Adventist church in crisis
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
3. RE: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:19:20 +0200
From: Viwe Jakavula <viwe.jakavula@xxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
Hello
I am indeed happy to have found this discussion mailing list - I hope my
spirit will be uplifted and also wish to enrich fellow members lives with my
contribution thereof.
May God bless and keep you - and thanks for welcoming me.
My Name is: Viwe Jakavula
Sex: Female
Age: 25
Married recently
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sa-sda-owner@onelist.com [SMTP:sa-sda-owner@onelist.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 10:23 AM
> To: viwe.jakavula@vodacom.co.za
> Subject: [sa-sda] Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
>
> Hello,
>
>
> Welcome to the SA-SDA discussion mailing list.
> As a new subscriber we encourage you to send an email to
> sa-sda@onelist.com and introduce yourself to the rest of the list members.
> Here are a couple of reasons why we started the mailing list:
>
> About a year ago a group of South African SDA's started a web site
> (www.masabatha.org) with the purpose of sharing their spiritual
> experiences.
> We see the mailing list as an extension of this ministry.
> Our objective is to facilitate discussion among SDA church members in
> Southern Africa.
> The discussions on this list need not be strictly on Christian issues,
> they can be on social, political, economic or personal issues,
> since all of these issues do affect us in our Christian journey.
>
> We hope to hear from you soon.
>
> The King is even at the door!
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at
> www.onelist.com, and select the User Center link from the menu bar
> on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription
> between digest and normal mode.
> You can also unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to
> sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
> Thanks,
> The List Manager
> Mashudu Jeremiah Ravhegani
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 19:53:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Adventist church in crisis
Lungani,
I thought that there was no interest on this subject, I will try to
dig out something for you.
Let's continue to pray for one another!
Jeremiah
--- Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> wrote:
> From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
>
> Ravhengani,
>
> I hope we both are well.
>
> In this topic you have promised to give us more info, how is it
> going?
> Can I still wait or must I call CNN and find out from them because
> it
> seems like our overseas correspondent has run out of time and zest
> to
> give us umgosi? Joking!
>
> Another thing, I have read some staff on why the former president
> resigned by I could not really understand the reason for him to be
> forced (by whatever or whoever) to. Could youg give me more data
> why -
> Please.
>
> This is interesting information - please give me some more.
>
>
> Lungani
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 07:51:41 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Nick,
He sings gospel music, its just that his music is most relevant to
people who enjoy an up-tempo kind of music. He does have a message in
and seems to be dedicated to his God.
Anyhow, the concert was postponed to Sabbath evenig and I went there
with a clear conscience. It was good, I must say.
Thanks Nick,
Lungani
>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 09/17/99 03:51PM
>>>
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
Lungani,
Who is Kirk Franklin? Does He/she sing to the glory of God? This is
serious
for me Lungani because I cannot provide a reply without knowing who
this
singer is. If this person sings for Jesus why can't he/she sing on a
Sabbath
day or on Sunday? If he/she is just a secular singer then it would be
wrong
to go there on Friday evening - these hours belong to God. Our
pleasure
needs to be God oriented without exception. I think Isaia 58 is a
chapter
that refers to us not doing that which is pleasurable to ourselves on
a
Sabbath day. You see I like football, but not on a Sabbath day. These
hours
belong to God and not to mortals.
Enough for the day is he evil thereof.
Happy Sabbath
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Lungani Mfeka [mailto:MfekaL@telkom.co.za]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 3:05 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Ladies and gentlemen,
I am so sorry, something went wrong instead of pushing a "cancel"
button I pressed a "send" button.
Actually questions I had in mind have been answered its just that I
had
not read them in time. Please do not consider them and ignore the
mail.
Quick question: Is it not right to go to a Kirk Franklin concert on
Friday evening? I am tempted but I don't know if I will be commiting
a
new sin in my life. I have enough sins I don't want to add more.
Lungani
Lungani
>>> "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> 09/17/99 11:56AM >>>
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Jongimpi
Mfundisi othandekayo. Thank you, once more, for your response. It
makes sense though it is contrary to common sense applied when
talking
about discipline. I though that discipline is more than just telling
me
that I should not smoke. I though it is a punitive or corrective
measure after ascertaining that I am guilty of a "crime" alleged of
commiting. According to Tselane it is more than just an
acknowledgement
of my crime or telling me that I should not do it but also going a
step
further and make or help me not to do it again. Or think twice before
I
do it lest I be sorry. Something similar to a sentence given by a
magistrate or judge after you have been proven guilty of a crime.
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 09/16/99 06:37PM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Lungani
If Jesus did not discipline Judas, then that means he did not love
him.
(somewhere the bible says "those I love I reprove, or discipline).
If
He
knew what he was doing was wrong but uttered no word of reproof, how
will
HE judge him on the last day?
You say Jesus did not discipline anyone, I think He did, Mary the
woman
caught in adultery(do not ask me where the man was). Remember He
said,
go
and sin no more, is that a reward or discipline - what would have
happened
if she had sinned again?
Somewhere I am told, he had to chase some folks who were in the temple
doing
all sorts of things, maybe he did not chase them, but whatever he did,
it
must have been close to discipline.
Matt. 23, "Woe, woe" - I do not think that was a birthday wish. The
list
goes on and on. Maybe Jesus did discipline, in a way that is
different
from ours, for He hated sin but loved the sinner, we often confuse the
two,
don't we?
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 16, 1999 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
>
>Hi,
>
>As I was reading this discourse I asked myself a question: Did
Jesus,
>the 100% human Jesus, ever judge or discipline anyone in the 33 yrs
he
>spent on earth. If we are Xians aren't we expected to do like he did
-
>or maybe we hold on to what John says when he says that Jesus did
more
>than what is recorded in the Bible. He might have judged and
>disciplined people having warned us against judging and disciplining.
>
>Think of Jesus versus Judas, for instance.
>
>Lungani
>
>>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 09/10/99 04:21PM >>>
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Boyce,
>Are we supposed to tell the pastor/elder not to preach because he is
>unconsecrated? Church discipline is central to the gospel, as child
>discipline is central to child upbringing. Can God use Balak to bless
>his people?
> Are we to stop returning tithe because the tithe the conference is
>corrupt?
>Are we to stop exercising church discipline because we are not
perfect?
>
>Real question is when there is the problem with the vessels do we
>change the rules or the vessel?
>It's like having a problem with the car and try to fix the road
>instead.
>I would like to submit that we need changing not God's system?
>
>Peace!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> 09/10 1:08 PM >>>
>From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
>
>Jerry,
>
>My boy is growing, he turned seven months two days ago. I am
grateful
>to
>the Lord for him. I gave him the name Kelello because my desire is
for
>him
>to have brains/wisdom. Incidentally, he was born on the same day
that
>the
>world President of our church resigned, Elder Folkenberg. This said
to
>me,
>my boy may be the future world president of our church, if heaven is
>not
>down then. Just making you catch up on the latest family issues,
hope
>Mili
>is fine and your bundle of joy.
>
>Thanks for your constructive comments on the subject I proposed. I
>like
>this because our mental faculties are at work. Let me start by
>addressing
>your comment about the flawed foundation in so far as sam relates to
>using
>concepts 'discipline' and 'judgement' interchangeably.
>
>'JUDGEMENT' versus 'DISCIPLINE'
>
>I believe that the two concepts of discipline and judgement are,
>contrary to
>your averment, interrelated. Judgement is about determining guilt or
>innocence. When the judge in a court of law passes judgement, two
>things
>are possible, one the judge may find that accusations levelled
against
>you
>have no substance and therefore find you innocent. Alternatively,
the
>judge
>may find that the accussations against you do have substance and
>pronounce
>you guilty. When God shall come he will determine first whether you
>are a
>goat (guilty) or a sheep(saved into His righteousness). Once this
>process
>is completed, then punishment will follow. Therefore, it is not a
>foregone
>conclusion that wherever there is judgement, there is always a
>punishment,
>there could also be a reward - come and enter into my joy you
faithful
>servant. We must distinguish between judgement and sentencing. The
>two are
>different.
>
>While judgement has two sides to it, discipline has only side---that
>is
>punitive. Yes, I agree, discipline has a corrective angle, but it
>remains
>punitive. Discipline is almost, if not completely, sentencing, which
>means
>you have gone past the stage of judging. You effect discipline
>because
>there is an evaluation process that you have undertaken to determine
>whether
>the person is guilty or innocent. That evaluation process is nothing
>but
>judgement. Discipline therefore becomes a by-product of judgement.
In
>your
>example of a child who either spills milk or come home at 1:00am, you
>as a
>parent set a standard that says milk shall not be spilled in this
house
>nor
>shall you arrive after 7:00pm. How do you know the child has
>transgressed?
>When I see milk spilled down or when I have to open the door for
>him/her at
>1:00am. So I start by recognising that my law has been violated and
I
>then
>determine what the appropriate discipline/corrective measure or
>sentence
>will be. I conclude therefore that judgement is inevitable in any
>disciplinary process/measure.
>
>Coming to church, you see a little unmarried girl pushing a big tummy
>and
>you know it is not because she ate too much but because some life is
>developing within her. You don't just say, she must be censured or
>disfellowshipped. The first step is to determine if this conduct is
>acceptable or not. You go to the guide (Bible) that tells you that
>indulgence in sexual relations prior to being like me, is sinful.
You
>have
>actually judged.
>
>You rightly make the point as I do in my document, that we will
always
>have
>a problem when unconsecrated men handly holy things---exactly my
point.
> Are
>we suited to handle this consecrated business? The fact that we
>exercise
>discipline in love, does not really give us a title to administer it,
>for it
>still remains discipline preceded by judgement. You can handle a
>wrong
>thing correctly---it's like a student who gives a perfect answer to a
>question that is not asked. Yes we may handle discipline the correct
>way as
>you suggest, but the question still remains, are we the ones to
conduct
>this
>business.
>
>I submit that our business is to point sinners (I guess ourselves) to
>the
>cross of Calvary and encourage each other in this challenging
journey.
>There is nothing wrong in calling sin by its right name and
encouraging
>the
>brother who is going astray to find his path again.
>
>Face to face with Christ my Saviour ---soon it shall be.
>
>Boyce
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 11:01 PM
>Subject: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>
>
>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Boyce,
>
>Let me take this time to welcome you back to the family. We missed
>you.
>Your analytic skills and your emphasis on details always impress me,
>as I read your postings it's like watching a brain surgeon remove a
>brain tumor.
>I appreciate the effort that you have taken to produce this paper on
>church discipline. The issues that you have address are issues that
>are affecting us all in this age and time.
>
>One thing that I like about this discussion list is that we are able
>to disagree in love. Having said that let me go straight to the
>point. I strongly disagree (sounds familiar) with your position.
>In many of our churches there is a misrepresentation of what church
>discipline is all about. You have taken this misrepresented view of
>church discipline and build your position on it. There is a major
>flaw on the foundation of your position.
>
>CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>
>Now that I have succeeded in getting everybody*s attention I can
>continue.
>The subject of your mail says *Disfellowship and Church Discipline*
>whereas the title of your says *THE JUDGES OF THE FLESH!*. The first
>line in your paper says, *The subject of discipline in God*s church
>is a rather sensitive*.* Throughout your document you maintain the
>theme of judgement.
>
>Here, lies the major flaw of your position, you seem to use the two
>words, discipline and judgement interchangeably. This is the flawed
>foundation. The majority of our members make the same mistake, so I
>am not surprised. The two actions, discipline and judgement are
>worlds apart from each other. It is unfortunate that the word like
>discipline which is positive in its meaning can be confused with the
>word judgment, which is negative in its intend and purposes. Since
>most of our church members do not understand church discipline and
>the critical role that it plays in the priesthood of believers, they
>despise it and see it as a punishment (the results of judgment).
>
>The dictionary also testifies that the two words do not have similar
>or related meanings.
>I must make this one thing clear, I do have a problem with church
>discipline, however my problem is not with the institution of church
>discipline, but with the way in which it is exercised in many of our
>churches, I will try to elaborate on this latter.
>
>What is judgement?
>From your professional background you can answer this question better
>than I can, so I will not attempt.
>Judgement results in punishment (if pardon is not an option) for the
>guilty party. Punishment is the rewards that the offender deserves.
>If you have killed somebody and the law says an eye for and eye, then
>you will be killed also.
>
>What is discipline?
>I see discipline as a corrective measure that is taken to restore or
>bring back the offender. Even more that discipline seeks to uplift
>the offender to a higher ground. Unlike judgement, disciple is not a
>reward of the persons action even though the level of discipline may
>vary (I will deal with this later). Discipline when correctly
>administered it is an act of love.
>If discipline becomes a punishment then something has gone horribly
>wrong.
>Can you imagine a father who shoots his son on the head because he
>forgot to polish his boots?
>Later I will use this parallel of child discipline and church
>discipline to illustrate my point.
>
>Does the church (flesh) judge its members?
>NO! The Bible says thou shall not judge; only God is the Judge.
>What does the church do? The church like a good parent exercises
>discipline. Spare the rod and spoil the child, there is a biblical
>version in Proverbs. Even God says that those that He loves he
>chastises. The role of the church discipline is the same as that of a
>good parent; it is to correct, to rebuke and to restore.
>I thank my parents for their stern discipline when I was growing up.
>If ever it was not for that discipline I won*t be writing this mail
>to you. I didn*t like it then, but now I appreciate it.
>No one ever disciplines a child by giving him/her extra cookies or
>asks the child to choose how to be disciplined nor expect the child
>will discipline him/herself.
>God has given us many, many object lesson, if only we can just stop
>and look/listen we will hear/see the gospel. Yes, church discipline
>is not sweet; of course it can*t be sweet and still be discipline.
>If the church decides to discipline you instead of trying to point
>the sins of others, you need to be grateful that the church/God cares
>so much that want to correct them. Blessed is the man/woman who
>gets/receives correction!
>When the church fails to exercise discipline it does not only fail
>God but also the one who broke God*s law.
>I know what I am talking about, there is someone who is very close to
>me whom the church because of her public status decided not to
>discipline her, and till today she is just hanging in limbo, and that
>hurts me.
>Now, let's look closely at this issue of discipline.
>
>Why selective discipline?
>Why discipline a girl who has committed fornication not the elder who
>is lusting after the deacon*s wife?
>I wonder if this question has any value if discipline is not view as
>judgment. Anyway let me continue.
>There are many of us who have secret sins, sins that we love so
>dearly, sins that the church board will never found out. How luck
>(blessed?) we are!
>Contrary to the above, I think it is a blessing when your sin comes
>into the light.
>Having said that we need to understand that to be in good and regular
>standing in a local church does not mean your name is in the books of
>heaven.
>Church discipline does not replace our direct accountability to God.
>Church discipline is more than just a way of maintaining a clean
>house, it is the gospel. The discipline is an extra fence created to
>help those who are weak, of course not everybody is so luck to be
>caught by this fence. As much as you give a medicine to those who
>look sickly, those who pretend that they are well or whom you don*t
>know that they are sick are left out. So, in this case a
>"fornicator" is luck to be found out, bad luck to the "luster"! If we
>really know Jesus we will be happy when our sins comes to the light,
>psalmist says " Search me*."
>
>Why have varying degrees of discipline?
>Why Disfellowship brother M and only censure sister K
>If we go back to our example of child discipline, if a child spills
>milk he might get just a stern warning, but if he insists on coming
>back home at 1:00AM a different type of discipline might be
>exercised.
>So, is church discipline, sometimes it is necessary to send a strong
>message of rebuke.
>
>Jesus and the women caught in the act of adultery
>What need to understand is that the Jewish leaders were not in the
>business of administering church discipline, they were administering
>judgement. This is what Law of Moses specified. Jesus came to put an
>end to this system. He said let them grow together till the time of
>judgement, this was a very revolutionary message.
>The differences between discipline and judgement have already been
>dealt with above.
>
>My problem with church discipline
>As I have said before, my problem is not with the system of church
>discipline, but with the way it is administered in many of our
>churches. We will always have a problem when unconsecrated men handle
>holy things. I believe that if church discipline was exercised with
>love its effect will be more positive. Back to the example of the
>child discipline, we are told never to discipline children when we
>are angry, but exercise discipline in love.
>I believe that if we were to discipline people with tears in our eyes
>and prayer on our lips those people who disciplined will be won back
>to the Lord.
>
>People who fight when they are disciplined.
>People who have committed sins that the church feels that they
>require church discipline and yet they fight and refuse to be
>disciplined only testify that they desperately need church
>discipline. If one has truly repented the respond will be, 'whatever
>you say Lord I will do'. Spirit of calling lawyers and
>representatives and arguing can only come from the devil. It does not
>matter that those who are administering have their own sins, the Lord
>will take care of them.
>Our problem is that the members of our churches have a form of
>godliness, yet denying its power.
>We can't lower the standards to accommodate the members; the members
>must be lifted up to where Christ is.
>
>What's the fuss about disfellowship?
>To me, I see it as figurative action not really true to its meaning.
>People who are disfellowshed are still allowed to attend church every
>Sabbath, and after few months get a privilege of the second baptism.
>Where is the fuss? Some people just have big ego's that will stand on
>their way to heaven. All they are concerned about is for their names
>to be in the books on earth and not concerned about heaven.
>
>Research proves contrary to popular believe, church which have strong
>church discipline have high church growth than those with low
>standards. Why?
>
>The time is about 2:AM, I think I need to and sleep, see y'all later!
>
>Sound the trumpet, Jesus is coming soon!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>__________________________________________________
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