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There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Cape Conference Clips
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
2. Re: Adventist church in crisis
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
3. Re: TC-TOC Merger
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
4. Atheist vs. Christian Debate: A Thought Proviking Defense of Faith
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
5. Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
6. Re: Leadership / Administration
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
7. Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
8. Re: Re: Leadership / Administration
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:44:11 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Cape Conference Clips
[This message contained attachments]
_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:46:04 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Adventist church in crisis
Ravhengani,
I hope we both are well.
In this topic you have promised to give us more info, how is it going?
Can I still wait or must I call CNN and find out from them because it
seems like our overseas correspondent has run out of time and zest to
give us umgosi? Joking!
Another thing, I have read some staff on why the former president
resigned by I could not really understand the reason for him to be
forced (by whatever or whoever) to. Could youg give me more data why -
Please.
This is interesting information - please give me some more.
Lungani
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 09/08/99 08:29PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Errol wrote:
>>Its Errol Nembhard,
>>I've been in England away for a while preaching but I'm back its
great to
>>know that we are going to have some great discussions online!
Eroll,
Welcome to the SA-SDA family, I am looking forward to some good
theological debate as we used to in the good old days.
For those who do not know him, Errol is a British 'lay' evangelist who
is now living in South Africa.
He recently conducted a crusade in his native country, England, and 53
souls were baptized, that's a miracle in that part of the world.
Back to business. The Adventist church in crisis
Now, I believe this will awaken Daniel's interest.
Errol if you still remember the last discussion we had was about the
crisis that was ignited by the book on Inspiration written by Alden
Thompson, who is an Adventist theologian. Of course there is nothing
knew about his views, his views have been held by non-Adventist
theologian for many years, however this was the first time and Adventist
theologian has come out in public to support these views. To make things
worse the book was published and distributed by an Adventist publishing
house, I bought a copy of the book at the local ABC in Johannesburg. I
understand the Church has since realized that they made a mistake and
have decided to stop distributing this book, so you might not find it at
your local ABC.
What is at stake in this crisis?
It is whether the Bible can be trusted as infallible word of God. What
theologians like Alden Thompson believe is that not everything in the
Bible is inspired. They believe that some parts of the Bible e.g.
mathematical figures are not reliable. For example the Bible says that
600 000 men left Egypt, which will mean that about 2 million (include
women and children) Israelites left Egypt for Canaan. They believe that
it can not be true since it would have been an environmental disaster in
the dessert, and also that there were no logistics to support such big
group of people. To put it simply, they no longer believe in miracles.
They do not believe in the traditional Adventist interpretation of
Bible prophecy.
The fact of the matter is that since they have buried (or so they
think) the SOP, they want to bury the Bible too.
This is called the historical-critical method of studying the Bible.
The Adventist theologians are now divided into two groups, the
liberals, who aspire to the views above, and the conservatives who still
believe in the traditional teachings of Adventism. The division can also
be viewed geographically, with the liberal west coast (Walla-Walla
College, La Sierra College etc.) and the conservative East Coast
(Andrews University etc.).
This crisis exploded at Walla-Walla College last year, (by the way
Alden Thompson teaches at Walla-Walla College) which lead to the
commission of inquiry. I will try to supply some documents on this
commission latter.
Anyway what happen at Walla-Walla is that the theology department
decided to change the department from theology to Biblical studies, the
reason was obvious they no longer believe in teaching theology. It was
also alleged that one of the theology lecturers was in fact a self
confessed atheist. More importantly all theology students that came out
of the college did not want to preach the gospel. And so on.
Last year our former GC president sent a strong message to such
theologians to either follow the mission of the church or resign. I will
try to find this sermon for you. As can be expected, they celebrated
when he resigned, even today they are still celebrating. Before He
resigned he had asked all Divisions to enforce a policy that all
institutions in their divisions must abide by the church mission. The
NAD has not implemented that recommendation and I do not think that they
will ever do it.
I can go on, and on, But I guess some might be lost in the process.
Samuel Koranteng-Pipim, an African scholar, (Pastor Letseli knows him
well, they were neighbors at Andrews) wrote a book called "Receiving the
word" which address the above issues. This book has been heralded
throughout Adventism as the best book on the subject. Koranteng-Pipim
was also part of the group (Adventist Theological Studies) that wrote a
book to respond to Alden Thompson's book; this book is called "Issues in
Inspiration". Both of these books can be found at the local ABC. If
"Receiving the word" is not available in SA, Koranteng-Pipim has
promised me that he can arrange for a shipment of the books to SA at a
great discount.
This book is a must to every Adventist.
Here is the link to the first chapter of "Receiving the word".
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pipim/chap1.htm
Those who are following this development will realize that the theme of
the recent Sabbath School lessons is in the context of this conflict. To
me, it seem like the church Administrators realized the great influence
that these liberals are having, and they decided to educated the masses
before they are misled.
Can you believe that one of the former GC vice president now believes
in evolution? Anyway, theirs is a modified evolution or modified
creation. That is, God is still the creator but He uses evolution to
assist Him in creation.
Errol, I am sure you would like to add your views on this discussion.
Were you able to get a copy of Koranteng-Pipim's book?
The signs of the times are everywhere!
Maranatha!
Jeremiah
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:34:23 +0200
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: TC-TOC Merger
Boyce,
You do not need to be apologetic of your analysis of the leadership style in the Adventist Church -or 'sanctifying administration,' as you interestingly stated it, [your argument would still be pertinent to the leadership style among the so called mainstream churches] . I think your comments are in line with and echo the Pauline concepts of spiritual gifts as outlined in Eph. 4; Rom. 12:6-8 & 1 Cor. 12. The big question which begs for an answer is - "Is the Adventist Church [including other mainstream Churches] ready for a shift from Presbyterian style [leadership by elders/bishops] to leadership through spiritual gifts?" I don't have an answer for this question. Someone needs to solve this riddle.
I think the Church prefers a leadership that will not only lead the masses into the heavenly Canaan, but also be carriers of the ethos, theology and essentials of Adventist faith while in pilgrimage era. This view may perceived to be more traditional or conventional. I also appreciate the fact that your synthesis of church leadership is premised on the plea for change. "Change" - this word frightens most people [including the writer] because it shakes our very comfort zone, and forces us to venture into the unknown, virgin grounds, un-explored frontiers and stimulate un-conventional thinking. I think the first step is talk about it before we experience this envisaged future.
Jongimpi's race illustration is very interesting and frightening. Interesting in the sense that he rightly equates Church Unity to a race, but frightening in the sense that if we do not unite by choice [or motivated by love for one another], persecutions orchestrated from a united world will unavoidably unite us. And Boyce complicates it when he alludes to the fact that, in our quest to unify the Church, we seem to be implementing a borrowed solution to our divided, problematic situation. He says, "In fact, I make a point in my lost document that the merger was not 'autochtonous'---home grown. It was driven from GC and probably, the problems we experience regarding same are caused by this 'foreign' solution."
One wanders whether the "foreignness" or "local-ness" of the solution is really a hindrance or an enhancer of Church Unity. I think the bottom line is - "Is the issue of Church Unity [together with other moral imperatives ] to be either accepted or rejected on the basis of a vote?" Wrong is wrong even if it enjoys majority vote. Right is right even if it enjoys minority vote. I think the issues at stake in the whole question of Church Unity are "obedience" and "rebellion" to the prayer of Jesus Christ [John 17:21].
I partly concur with Boyce in his observation: We must merge because we see the need for a merger from both sides. In fact, if we all saw the need for merging, we would not be hindered by things like money because we know unity is a principle that cannot be negotiated. It is an absolute imperative. What if we do not see the need, but Jesus Christ does? Are we to leave the question of Church Unity at the mercy or discretion of what see and understand [or vote]? Once more, let us unite and leave the consequences to the Author and Prince of Peace [Jesus Christ].
His coming is nearer than when we first believed.
Tankiso Letseli
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:35:41 +0200
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Atheist vs. Christian Debate: A Thought Proviking Defense of Faith
Hi friends,
How are you? I hope you will find this attached discussion interesting. It may also help to arm us against any attack from secularists. God bless.
Tankiso Letseli
The Professor and the Christian
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ."
The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then
asks one of his new students
to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a
moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here
and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you
try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you
could... in fact most of
us would if we could...God doesn't."
[No answer.]
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer
even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good?
Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
[No answer]
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip
of water from a glass
on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have
to go easy with the new
ones.
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?" The student falters.
"From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony
fingers through his
thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think
we're going to have
a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the
Christian.
"Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?"
[No answer]
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the
terrible things - do
they exist in this world? "
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them? "
[No answer]
The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL
ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the
Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't
he, son?"
[No answer]
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom
like an ageing panther.
The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "how is it that this
God is good if He created
all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to
encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality,
all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the
suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it,
young man?"
[No answer]
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?"
Pause.
"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and
whispers, "Is God good?"
[No answer]
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses
you use to identify and
observe the world around you. Have you? "
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your
Jesus...in fact, do you have any
sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"
[No answer]
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling.
"According to the rules of
empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God
doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"
[The student doesn't answer]
"Sit down, please."
The Christian sits...Defeated.
Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard!
Come, come, young
man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."
The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are
making, sir. Now
I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The
second Christian continues.
"You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white
heat, a little heat or
no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458
degrees below zero, which is no
heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as
cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir,
cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot
measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is
energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What
are you getting at...?"
"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence
of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light,
flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and
it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the
word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to
make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of
darker darkness, professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before
him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us
what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to
start with and so your
conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
The class is all ears.
"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to
regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to
silence the class, for the student to continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains.
"That for example there is
life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing
the concept of God as
something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even
explain a thought. It uses
electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood
them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the
fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the
opposite of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor
who has been reading it.
"Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts,
professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is, now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of
morality. Is there such thing as
injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a
thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of
good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is
temporarily speechless.
The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and
we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a
work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is
accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will,
of our own free will, choose good over evil."
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this
matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I
absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological
factor as being part of the world equation because God is not
observable."
"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world
is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian
replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week!
Tell me, professor. Do you teach your student that they evolved from a
monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man,
yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student
a silent, stony stare.
"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at
work and cannot even
prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching
your opinion, sir? Are you
now not a scientist, but a priest?"
"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical
discussion. Now, have you quite
finished?" the professor hisses.
"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's science!"
"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin.
"Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena.
Science too is a premise
which is flawed..."
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.
The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the
commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may
I give you an example of
what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.
The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who
has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter.
The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there
anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain...felt the
professor's brain, touched
or smelt the professor's brain?"
"No one appears to have done so." The Christian shakes his head sadly.
"It appears no-one here
has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever.
Well, according to the rules
of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the
professor has no brain."
The class is in chaos.
The Christian sits... Because that is what a chair is for.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:25:57 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Hi,
As I was reading this discourse I asked myself a question: Did Jesus,
the 100% human Jesus, ever judge or discipline anyone in the 33 yrs he
spent on earth. If we are Xians aren't we expected to do like he did -
or maybe we hold on to what John says when he says that Jesus did more
than what is recorded in the Bible. He might have judged and
disciplined people having warned us against judging and disciplining.
Think of Jesus versus Judas, for instance.
Lungani
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 09/10/99 04:21PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Boyce,
Are we supposed to tell the pastor/elder not to preach because he is
unconsecrated? Church discipline is central to the gospel, as child
discipline is central to child upbringing. Can God use Balak to bless
his people?
Are we to stop returning tithe because the tithe the conference is
corrupt?
Are we to stop exercising church discipline because we are not perfect?
Real question is when there is the problem with the vessels do we
change the rules or the vessel?
It's like having a problem with the car and try to fix the road
instead.
I would like to submit that we need changing not God's system?
Peace!
Jeremiah
>>> "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> 09/10 1:08 PM >>>
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
Jerry,
My boy is growing, he turned seven months two days ago. I am grateful
to
the Lord for him. I gave him the name Kelello because my desire is for
him
to have brains/wisdom. Incidentally, he was born on the same day that
the
world President of our church resigned, Elder Folkenberg. This said to
me,
my boy may be the future world president of our church, if heaven is
not
down then. Just making you catch up on the latest family issues, hope
Mili
is fine and your bundle of joy.
Thanks for your constructive comments on the subject I proposed. I
like
this because our mental faculties are at work. Let me start by
addressing
your comment about the flawed foundation in so far as sam relates to
using
concepts 'discipline' and 'judgement' interchangeably.
'JUDGEMENT' versus 'DISCIPLINE'
I believe that the two concepts of discipline and judgement are,
contrary to
your averment, interrelated. Judgement is about determining guilt or
innocence. When the judge in a court of law passes judgement, two
things
are possible, one the judge may find that accusations levelled against
you
have no substance and therefore find you innocent. Alternatively, the
judge
may find that the accussations against you do have substance and
pronounce
you guilty. When God shall come he will determine first whether you
are a
goat (guilty) or a sheep(saved into His righteousness). Once this
process
is completed, then punishment will follow. Therefore, it is not a
foregone
conclusion that wherever there is judgement, there is always a
punishment,
there could also be a reward - come and enter into my joy you faithful
servant. We must distinguish between judgement and sentencing. The
two are
different.
While judgement has two sides to it, discipline has only side---that
is
punitive. Yes, I agree, discipline has a corrective angle, but it
remains
punitive. Discipline is almost, if not completely, sentencing, which
means
you have gone past the stage of judging. You effect discipline
because
there is an evaluation process that you have undertaken to determine
whether
the person is guilty or innocent. That evaluation process is nothing
but
judgement. Discipline therefore becomes a by-product of judgement. In
your
example of a child who either spills milk or come home at 1:00am, you
as a
parent set a standard that says milk shall not be spilled in this house
nor
shall you arrive after 7:00pm. How do you know the child has
transgressed?
When I see milk spilled down or when I have to open the door for
him/her at
1:00am. So I start by recognising that my law has been violated and I
then
determine what the appropriate discipline/corrective measure or
sentence
will be. I conclude therefore that judgement is inevitable in any
disciplinary process/measure.
Coming to church, you see a little unmarried girl pushing a big tummy
and
you know it is not because she ate too much but because some life is
developing within her. You don't just say, she must be censured or
disfellowshipped. The first step is to determine if this conduct is
acceptable or not. You go to the guide (Bible) that tells you that
indulgence in sexual relations prior to being like me, is sinful. You
have
actually judged.
You rightly make the point as I do in my document, that we will always
have
a problem when unconsecrated men handly holy things---exactly my point.
Are
we suited to handle this consecrated business? The fact that we
exercise
discipline in love, does not really give us a title to administer it,
for it
still remains discipline preceded by judgement. You can handle a
wrong
thing correctly---it's like a student who gives a perfect answer to a
question that is not asked. Yes we may handle discipline the correct
way as
you suggest, but the question still remains, are we the ones to conduct
this
business.
I submit that our business is to point sinners (I guess ourselves) to
the
cross of Calvary and encourage each other in this challenging journey.
There is nothing wrong in calling sin by its right name and encouraging
the
brother who is going astray to find his path again.
Face to face with Christ my Saviour ---soon it shall be.
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 11:01 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Boyce,
Let me take this time to welcome you back to the family. We missed
you.
Your analytic skills and your emphasis on details always impress me,
as I read your postings it's like watching a brain surgeon remove a
brain tumor.
I appreciate the effort that you have taken to produce this paper on
church discipline. The issues that you have address are issues that
are affecting us all in this age and time.
One thing that I like about this discussion list is that we are able
to disagree in love. Having said that let me go straight to the
point. I strongly disagree (sounds familiar) with your position.
In many of our churches there is a misrepresentation of what church
discipline is all about. You have taken this misrepresented view of
church discipline and build your position on it. There is a major
flaw on the foundation of your position.
CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Now that I have succeeded in getting everybody*s attention I can
continue.
The subject of your mail says *Disfellowship and Church Discipline*
whereas the title of your says *THE JUDGES OF THE FLESH!*. The first
line in your paper says, *The subject of discipline in God*s church
is a rather sensitive*.* Throughout your document you maintain the
theme of judgement.
Here, lies the major flaw of your position, you seem to use the two
words, discipline and judgement interchangeably. This is the flawed
foundation. The majority of our members make the same mistake, so I
am not surprised. The two actions, discipline and judgement are
worlds apart from each other. It is unfortunate that the word like
discipline which is positive in its meaning can be confused with the
word judgment, which is negative in its intend and purposes. Since
most of our church members do not understand church discipline and
the critical role that it plays in the priesthood of believers, they
despise it and see it as a punishment (the results of judgment).
The dictionary also testifies that the two words do not have similar
or related meanings.
I must make this one thing clear, I do have a problem with church
discipline, however my problem is not with the institution of church
discipline, but with the way in which it is exercised in many of our
churches, I will try to elaborate on this latter.
What is judgement?
From your professional background you can answer this question better
than I can, so I will not attempt.
Judgement results in punishment (if pardon is not an option) for the
guilty party. Punishment is the rewards that the offender deserves.
If you have killed somebody and the law says an eye for and eye, then
you will be killed also.
What is discipline?
I see discipline as a corrective measure that is taken to restore or
bring back the offender. Even more that discipline seeks to uplift
the offender to a higher ground. Unlike judgement, disciple is not a
reward of the persons action even though the level of discipline may
vary (I will deal with this later). Discipline when correctly
administered it is an act of love.
If discipline becomes a punishment then something has gone horribly
wrong.
Can you imagine a father who shoots his son on the head because he
forgot to polish his boots?
Later I will use this parallel of child discipline and church
discipline to illustrate my point.
Does the church (flesh) judge its members?
NO! The Bible says thou shall not judge; only God is the Judge.
What does the church do? The church like a good parent exercises
discipline. Spare the rod and spoil the child, there is a biblical
version in Proverbs. Even God says that those that He loves he
chastises. The role of the church discipline is the same as that of a
good parent; it is to correct, to rebuke and to restore.
I thank my parents for their stern discipline when I was growing up.
If ever it was not for that discipline I won*t be writing this mail
to you. I didn*t like it then, but now I appreciate it.
No one ever disciplines a child by giving him/her extra cookies or
asks the child to choose how to be disciplined nor expect the child
will discipline him/herself.
God has given us many, many object lesson, if only we can just stop
and look/listen we will hear/see the gospel. Yes, church discipline
is not sweet; of course it can*t be sweet and still be discipline.
If the church decides to discipline you instead of trying to point
the sins of others, you need to be grateful that the church/God cares
so much that want to correct them. Blessed is the man/woman who
gets/receives correction!
When the church fails to exercise discipline it does not only fail
God but also the one who broke God*s law.
I know what I am talking about, there is someone who is very close to
me whom the church because of her public status decided not to
discipline her, and till today she is just hanging in limbo, and that
hurts me.
Now, let's look closely at this issue of discipline.
Why selective discipline?
Why discipline a girl who has committed fornication not the elder who
is lusting after the deacon*s wife?
I wonder if this question has any value if discipline is not view as
judgment. Anyway let me continue.
There are many of us who have secret sins, sins that we love so
dearly, sins that the church board will never found out. How luck
(blessed?) we are!
Contrary to the above, I think it is a blessing when your sin comes
into the light.
Having said that we need to understand that to be in good and regular
standing in a local church does not mean your name is in the books of
heaven.
Church discipline does not replace our direct accountability to God.
Church discipline is more than just a way of maintaining a clean
house, it is the gospel. The discipline is an extra fence created to
help those who are weak, of course not everybody is so luck to be
caught by this fence. As much as you give a medicine to those who
look sickly, those who pretend that they are well or whom you don*t
know that they are sick are left out. So, in this case a
"fornicator" is luck to be found out, bad luck to the "luster"! If we
really know Jesus we will be happy when our sins comes to the light,
psalmist says " Search me*."
Why have varying degrees of discipline?
Why Disfellowship brother M and only censure sister K
If we go back to our example of child discipline, if a child spills
milk he might get just a stern warning, but if he insists on coming
back home at 1:00AM a different type of discipline might be
exercised.
So, is church discipline, sometimes it is necessary to send a strong
message of rebuke.
Jesus and the women caught in the act of adultery
What need to understand is that the Jewish leaders were not in the
business of administering church discipline, they were administering
judgement. This is what Law of Moses specified. Jesus came to put an
end to this system. He said let them grow together till the time of
judgement, this was a very revolutionary message.
The differences between discipline and judgement have already been
dealt with above.
My problem with church discipline
As I have said before, my problem is not with the system of church
discipline, but with the way it is administered in many of our
churches. We will always have a problem when unconsecrated men handle
holy things. I believe that if church discipline was exercised with
love its effect will be more positive. Back to the example of the
child discipline, we are told never to discipline children when we
are angry, but exercise discipline in love.
I believe that if we were to discipline people with tears in our eyes
and prayer on our lips those people who disciplined will be won back
to the Lord.
People who fight when they are disciplined.
People who have committed sins that the church feels that they
require church discipline and yet they fight and refuse to be
disciplined only testify that they desperately need church
discipline. If one has truly repented the respond will be, 'whatever
you say Lord I will do'. Spirit of calling lawyers and
representatives and arguing can only come from the devil. It does not
matter that those who are administering have their own sins, the Lord
will take care of them.
Our problem is that the members of our churches have a form of
godliness, yet denying its power.
We can't lower the standards to accommodate the members; the members
must be lifted up to where Christ is.
What's the fuss about disfellowship?
To me, I see it as figurative action not really true to its meaning.
People who are disfellowshed are still allowed to attend church every
Sabbath, and after few months get a privilege of the second baptism.
Where is the fuss? Some people just have big ego's that will stand on
their way to heaven. All they are concerned about is for their names
to be in the books on earth and not concerned about heaven.
Research proves contrary to popular believe, church which have strong
church discipline have high church growth than those with low
standards. Why?
The time is about 2:AM, I think I need to and sleep, see y'all later!
Sound the trumpet, Jesus is coming soon!
Jeremiah
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:51:40 -0700
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
Subject: Re: Leadership / Administration
Ntate Letseli
Your insightful analysis of the leadership ethos is interesting. Thank you for this one.
You have made a point about the Church preferring a leadership that will not only lead the masses into the heavenly Canaan, but also be carriers of the ethos, theology and essentials of the Adventist faith while in pilgrimage era. I fully concur with these sentiments for spiritual guidance, ethical and theological embrace. However, we need to investigate the proportionate distribution of time in terms of time spent offering spiritual guidance and real run of the mill administrative issues. I see bulk of the work in the office as administrative with an Adventist/spiritual content guidance/flavour. You have the Youth Director organising camps, organising events for the youth, organising and organising......This takes time. The implementation of the spiritual content cannot compare to the time spent preparing therefor. The Secretary is handling correspondence in terms of latest developments; handling recruitment an employment policies/practices affecting the organisation, but when the employee takes you to the CCMA because some Labour Relations Act provision has been somehow violated, little Adventist ethos/theology is applicable then. I am saying you need a spiritual guardian, and we could probably prescribe certain positions, like President to be a pastor as you would find a Chairman of the Board of Directors who may not necessarily be a Scientist in a scientific company. The operations may need to go to operational people, of course who labour under the jurisdiction of the President or such other officers as may be deemed appropriate.
Yes, change is scary, but we should not allow fear to rob us of those strategies that may actually work to the benefit of our own system. I know, that jobs and probably status will be an issue here and therefore our objectivity may be a bit influenced, but we need to remove ourselves from the situation and see beyond our own interests and see the interests of effective and efficient administration and how it will enhance our own performance in terms of the gospel commission.
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Tankiso Letseli <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 16, 1999 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] TC-TOC Merger
ÿþ
Boyce,
You do not need to be apologetic of your analysis of the leadership style in the Adventist Church -or 'sanctifying administration,' as you interestingly stated it, [your argument would still be pertinent to the leadership style among the so called mainstream churches] . I think your comments are in line with and echo the Pauline concepts of spiritual gifts as outlined in Eph. 4; Rom. 12:6-8 & 1 Cor. 12. The big question which begs for an answer is - "Is the Adventist Church [including other mainstream Churches] ready for a shift from Presbyterian style [leadership by elders/bishops] to leadership through spiritual gifts?" I don't have an answer for this question. Someone needs to solve this riddle.
I think the Church prefers a leadership that will not only lead the masses into the heavenly Canaan, but also be carriers of the ethos, theology and essentials of Adventist faith while in pilgrimage era. This view may perceived to be more traditional or conventional. I also appreciate the fact that your synthesis of church leadership is premised on the plea for change. "Change" - this word frightens most people [including the writer] because it shakes our very comfort zone, and forces us to venture into the unknown, virgin grounds, un-explored frontiers and stimulate un-conventional thinking. I think the first step is talk about it before we experience this envisaged future.
Jongimpi's race illustration is very interesting and frightening. Interesting in the sense that he rightly equates Church Unity to a race, but frightening in the sense that if we do not unite by choice [or motivated by love for one another], persecutions orchestrated from a united world will unavoidably unite us. And Boyce complicates it when he alludes to the fact that, in our quest to unify the Church, we seem to be implementing a borrowed solution to our divided, problematic situation. He says, "In fact, I make a point in my lost document that the merger was not 'autochtonous'---home grown. It was driven from GC and probably, the problems we experience regarding same are caused by this 'foreign' solution."
One wanders whether the "foreignness" or "local-ness" of the solution is really a hindrance or an enhancer of Church Unity. I think the bottom line is - "Is the issue of Church Unity [together with other moral imperatives ] to be either accepted or rejected on the basis of a vote?" Wrong is wrong even if it enjoys majority vote. Right is right even if it enjoys minority vote. I think the issues at stake in the whole question of Church Unity are "obedience" and "rebellion" to the prayer of Jesus Christ [John 17:21].
I partly concur with Boyce in his observation: We must merge because we see the need for a merger from both sides. In fact, if we all saw the need for merging, we would not be hindered by things like money because we know unity is a principle that cannot be negotiated. It is an absolute imperative. What if we do not see the need, but Jesus Christ does? Are we to leave the question of Church Unity at the mercy or discretion of what see and understand [or vote]? Once more, let us unite and leave the consequences to the Author and Prince of Peace [Jesus Christ].
His coming is nearer than when we first believed.
Tankiso Letseli
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:37:20 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Lungani
If Jesus did not discipline Judas, then that means he did not love him.
(somewhere the bible says "those I love I reprove, or discipline). If He
knew what he was doing was wrong but uttered no word of reproof, how will
HE judge him on the last day?
You say Jesus did not discipline anyone, I think He did, Mary the woman
caught in adultery(do not ask me where the man was). Remember He said, go
and sin no more, is that a reward or discipline - what would have happened
if she had sinned again?
Somewhere I am told, he had to chase some folks who were in the temple doing
all sorts of things, maybe he did not chase them, but whatever he did, it
must have been close to discipline.
Matt. 23, "Woe, woe" - I do not think that was a birthday wish. The list
goes on and on. Maybe Jesus did discipline, in a way that is different
from ours, for He hated sin but loved the sinner, we often confuse the two,
don't we?
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 16, 1999 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
>
>Hi,
>
>As I was reading this discourse I asked myself a question: Did Jesus,
>the 100% human Jesus, ever judge or discipline anyone in the 33 yrs he
>spent on earth. If we are Xians aren't we expected to do like he did -
>or maybe we hold on to what John says when he says that Jesus did more
>than what is recorded in the Bible. He might have judged and
>disciplined people having warned us against judging and disciplining.
>
>Think of Jesus versus Judas, for instance.
>
>Lungani
>
>>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 09/10/99 04:21PM >>>
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Boyce,
>Are we supposed to tell the pastor/elder not to preach because he is
>unconsecrated? Church discipline is central to the gospel, as child
>discipline is central to child upbringing. Can God use Balak to bless
>his people?
> Are we to stop returning tithe because the tithe the conference is
>corrupt?
>Are we to stop exercising church discipline because we are not perfect?
>
>Real question is when there is the problem with the vessels do we
>change the rules or the vessel?
>It's like having a problem with the car and try to fix the road
>instead.
>I would like to submit that we need changing not God's system?
>
>Peace!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> 09/10 1:08 PM >>>
>From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
>
>Jerry,
>
>My boy is growing, he turned seven months two days ago. I am grateful
>to
>the Lord for him. I gave him the name Kelello because my desire is for
>him
>to have brains/wisdom. Incidentally, he was born on the same day that
>the
>world President of our church resigned, Elder Folkenberg. This said to
>me,
>my boy may be the future world president of our church, if heaven is
>not
>down then. Just making you catch up on the latest family issues, hope
>Mili
>is fine and your bundle of joy.
>
>Thanks for your constructive comments on the subject I proposed. I
>like
>this because our mental faculties are at work. Let me start by
>addressing
>your comment about the flawed foundation in so far as sam relates to
>using
>concepts 'discipline' and 'judgement' interchangeably.
>
>'JUDGEMENT' versus 'DISCIPLINE'
>
>I believe that the two concepts of discipline and judgement are,
>contrary to
>your averment, interrelated. Judgement is about determining guilt or
>innocence. When the judge in a court of law passes judgement, two
>things
>are possible, one the judge may find that accusations levelled against
>you
>have no substance and therefore find you innocent. Alternatively, the
>judge
>may find that the accussations against you do have substance and
>pronounce
>you guilty. When God shall come he will determine first whether you
>are a
>goat (guilty) or a sheep(saved into His righteousness). Once this
>process
>is completed, then punishment will follow. Therefore, it is not a
>foregone
>conclusion that wherever there is judgement, there is always a
>punishment,
>there could also be a reward - come and enter into my joy you faithful
>servant. We must distinguish between judgement and sentencing. The
>two are
>different.
>
>While judgement has two sides to it, discipline has only side---that
>is
>punitive. Yes, I agree, discipline has a corrective angle, but it
>remains
>punitive. Discipline is almost, if not completely, sentencing, which
>means
>you have gone past the stage of judging. You effect discipline
>because
>there is an evaluation process that you have undertaken to determine
>whether
>the person is guilty or innocent. That evaluation process is nothing
>but
>judgement. Discipline therefore becomes a by-product of judgement. In
>your
>example of a child who either spills milk or come home at 1:00am, you
>as a
>parent set a standard that says milk shall not be spilled in this house
>nor
>shall you arrive after 7:00pm. How do you know the child has
>transgressed?
>When I see milk spilled down or when I have to open the door for
>him/her at
>1:00am. So I start by recognising that my law has been violated and I
>then
>determine what the appropriate discipline/corrective measure or
>sentence
>will be. I conclude therefore that judgement is inevitable in any
>disciplinary process/measure.
>
>Coming to church, you see a little unmarried girl pushing a big tummy
>and
>you know it is not because she ate too much but because some life is
>developing within her. You don't just say, she must be censured or
>disfellowshipped. The first step is to determine if this conduct is
>acceptable or not. You go to the guide (Bible) that tells you that
>indulgence in sexual relations prior to being like me, is sinful. You
>have
>actually judged.
>
>You rightly make the point as I do in my document, that we will always
>have
>a problem when unconsecrated men handly holy things---exactly my point.
> Are
>we suited to handle this consecrated business? The fact that we
>exercise
>discipline in love, does not really give us a title to administer it,
>for it
>still remains discipline preceded by judgement. You can handle a
>wrong
>thing correctly---it's like a student who gives a perfect answer to a
>question that is not asked. Yes we may handle discipline the correct
>way as
>you suggest, but the question still remains, are we the ones to conduct
>this
>business.
>
>I submit that our business is to point sinners (I guess ourselves) to
>the
>cross of Calvary and encourage each other in this challenging journey.
>There is nothing wrong in calling sin by its right name and encouraging
>the
>brother who is going astray to find his path again.
>
>Face to face with Christ my Saviour ---soon it shall be.
>
>Boyce
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 11:01 PM
>Subject: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>
>
>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Boyce,
>
>Let me take this time to welcome you back to the family. We missed
>you.
>Your analytic skills and your emphasis on details always impress me,
>as I read your postings it's like watching a brain surgeon remove a
>brain tumor.
>I appreciate the effort that you have taken to produce this paper on
>church discipline. The issues that you have address are issues that
>are affecting us all in this age and time.
>
>One thing that I like about this discussion list is that we are able
>to disagree in love. Having said that let me go straight to the
>point. I strongly disagree (sounds familiar) with your position.
>In many of our churches there is a misrepresentation of what church
>discipline is all about. You have taken this misrepresented view of
>church discipline and build your position on it. There is a major
>flaw on the foundation of your position.
>
>CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>
>Now that I have succeeded in getting everybody*s attention I can
>continue.
>The subject of your mail says *Disfellowship and Church Discipline*
>whereas the title of your says *THE JUDGES OF THE FLESH!*. The first
>line in your paper says, *The subject of discipline in God*s church
>is a rather sensitive*.* Throughout your document you maintain the
>theme of judgement.
>
>Here, lies the major flaw of your position, you seem to use the two
>words, discipline and judgement interchangeably. This is the flawed
>foundation. The majority of our members make the same mistake, so I
>am not surprised. The two actions, discipline and judgement are
>worlds apart from each other. It is unfortunate that the word like
>discipline which is positive in its meaning can be confused with the
>word judgment, which is negative in its intend and purposes. Since
>most of our church members do not understand church discipline and
>the critical role that it plays in the priesthood of believers, they
>despise it and see it as a punishment (the results of judgment).
>
>The dictionary also testifies that the two words do not have similar
>or related meanings.
>I must make this one thing clear, I do have a problem with church
>discipline, however my problem is not with the institution of church
>discipline, but with the way in which it is exercised in many of our
>churches, I will try to elaborate on this latter.
>
>What is judgement?
>From your professional background you can answer this question better
>than I can, so I will not attempt.
>Judgement results in punishment (if pardon is not an option) for the
>guilty party. Punishment is the rewards that the offender deserves.
>If you have killed somebody and the law says an eye for and eye, then
>you will be killed also.
>
>What is discipline?
>I see discipline as a corrective measure that is taken to restore or
>bring back the offender. Even more that discipline seeks to uplift
>the offender to a higher ground. Unlike judgement, disciple is not a
>reward of the persons action even though the level of discipline may
>vary (I will deal with this later). Discipline when correctly
>administered it is an act of love.
>If discipline becomes a punishment then something has gone horribly
>wrong.
>Can you imagine a father who shoots his son on the head because he
>forgot to polish his boots?
>Later I will use this parallel of child discipline and church
>discipline to illustrate my point.
>
>Does the church (flesh) judge its members?
>NO! The Bible says thou shall not judge; only God is the Judge.
>What does the church do? The church like a good parent exercises
>discipline. Spare the rod and spoil the child, there is a biblical
>version in Proverbs. Even God says that those that He loves he
>chastises. The role of the church discipline is the same as that of a
>good parent; it is to correct, to rebuke and to restore.
>I thank my parents for their stern discipline when I was growing up.
>If ever it was not for that discipline I won*t be writing this mail
>to you. I didn*t like it then, but now I appreciate it.
>No one ever disciplines a child by giving him/her extra cookies or
>asks the child to choose how to be disciplined nor expect the child
>will discipline him/herself.
>God has given us many, many object lesson, if only we can just stop
>and look/listen we will hear/see the gospel. Yes, church discipline
>is not sweet; of course it can*t be sweet and still be discipline.
>If the church decides to discipline you instead of trying to point
>the sins of others, you need to be grateful that the church/God cares
>so much that want to correct them. Blessed is the man/woman who
>gets/receives correction!
>When the church fails to exercise discipline it does not only fail
>God but also the one who broke God*s law.
>I know what I am talking about, there is someone who is very close to
>me whom the church because of her public status decided not to
>discipline her, and till today she is just hanging in limbo, and that
>hurts me.
>Now, let's look closely at this issue of discipline.
>
>Why selective discipline?
>Why discipline a girl who has committed fornication not the elder who
>is lusting after the deacon*s wife?
>I wonder if this question has any value if discipline is not view as
>judgment. Anyway let me continue.
>There are many of us who have secret sins, sins that we love so
>dearly, sins that the church board will never found out. How luck
>(blessed?) we are!
>Contrary to the above, I think it is a blessing when your sin comes
>into the light.
>Having said that we need to understand that to be in good and regular
>standing in a local church does not mean your name is in the books of
>heaven.
>Church discipline does not replace our direct accountability to God.
>Church discipline is more than just a way of maintaining a clean
>house, it is the gospel. The discipline is an extra fence created to
>help those who are weak, of course not everybody is so luck to be
>caught by this fence. As much as you give a medicine to those who
>look sickly, those who pretend that they are well or whom you don*t
>know that they are sick are left out. So, in this case a
>"fornicator" is luck to be found out, bad luck to the "luster"! If we
>really know Jesus we will be happy when our sins comes to the light,
>psalmist says " Search me*."
>
>Why have varying degrees of discipline?
>Why Disfellowship brother M and only censure sister K
>If we go back to our example of child discipline, if a child spills
>milk he might get just a stern warning, but if he insists on coming
>back home at 1:00AM a different type of discipline might be
>exercised.
>So, is church discipline, sometimes it is necessary to send a strong
>message of rebuke.
>
>Jesus and the women caught in the act of adultery
>What need to understand is that the Jewish leaders were not in the
>business of administering church discipline, they were administering
>judgement. This is what Law of Moses specified. Jesus came to put an
>end to this system. He said let them grow together till the time of
>judgement, this was a very revolutionary message.
>The differences between discipline and judgement have already been
>dealt with above.
>
>My problem with church discipline
>As I have said before, my problem is not with the system of church
>discipline, but with the way it is administered in many of our
>churches. We will always have a problem when unconsecrated men handle
>holy things. I believe that if church discipline was exercised with
>love its effect will be more positive. Back to the example of the
>child discipline, we are told never to discipline children when we
>are angry, but exercise discipline in love.
>I believe that if we were to discipline people with tears in our eyes
>and prayer on our lips those people who disciplined will be won back
>to the Lord.
>
>People who fight when they are disciplined.
>People who have committed sins that the church feels that they
>require church discipline and yet they fight and refuse to be
>disciplined only testify that they desperately need church
>discipline. If one has truly repented the respond will be, 'whatever
>you say Lord I will do'. Spirit of calling lawyers and
>representatives and arguing can only come from the devil. It does not
>matter that those who are administering have their own sins, the Lord
>will take care of them.
>Our problem is that the members of our churches have a form of
>godliness, yet denying its power.
>We can't lower the standards to accommodate the members; the members
>must be lifted up to where Christ is.
>
>What's the fuss about disfellowship?
>To me, I see it as figurative action not really true to its meaning.
>People who are disfellowshed are still allowed to attend church every
>Sabbath, and after few months get a privilege of the second baptism.
>Where is the fuss? Some people just have big ego's that will stand on
>their way to heaven. All they are concerned about is for their names
>to be in the books on earth and not concerned about heaven.
>
>Research proves contrary to popular believe, church which have strong
>church discipline have high church growth than those with low
>standards. Why?
>
>The time is about 2:AM, I think I need to and sleep, see y'all later!
>
>Sound the trumpet, Jesus is coming soon!
>
>Jeremiah
>
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:31:46 PDT
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Re: Leadership / Administration
Dear Boyce,
In the apartheid era you would have been charged with treason and, if I am
not mistaken that carried the death penalty.
Fortunately you are raising the issue that concerns most Adventist around
the globe on the matter of leadership and administration.
I hope you will continue to engage the administration on this issue and
maybe throw the whole matter (as you have already done) for debate.
As you continue to enlighten us on this matter will you care also on dealing
with the issue of enabling our young people for church leadership at all
levels.
Thanks for reading.
Hold the fort
>From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Leadership / Administration
>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:51:40 -0700
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>
>Ntate Letseli
>
>Your insightful analysis of the leadership ethos is interesting. Thank you
>for this one.
>
>You have made a point about the Church preferring a leadership that will
>not only lead the masses into the heavenly Canaan, but also be carriers of
>the ethos, theology and essentials of the Adventist faith while in
>pilgrimage era. I fully concur with these sentiments for spiritual
>guidance, ethical and theological embrace. However, we need to investigate
>the proportionate distribution of time in terms of time spent offering
>spiritual guidance and real run of the mill administrative issues. I see
>bulk of the work in the office as administrative with an
>Adventist/spiritual content guidance/flavour. You have the Youth Director
>organising camps, organising events for the youth, organising and
>organising......This takes time. The implementation of the spiritual
>content cannot compare to the time spent preparing therefor. The Secretary
>is handling correspondence in terms of latest developments; handling
>recruitment an employment policies/practices affecting the organisation,
>but when the employee takes you to the CCMA because some Labour Relations
>Act provision has been somehow violated, little Adventist ethos/theology is
>applicable then. I am saying you need a spiritual guardian, and we could
>probably prescribe certain positions, like President to be a pastor as you
>would find a Chairman of the Board of Directors who may not necessarily be
>a Scientist in a scientific company. The operations may need to go to
>operational people, of course who labour under the jurisdiction of the
>President or such other officers as may be deemed appropriate.
>
>Yes, change is scary, but we should not allow fear to rob us of those
>strategies that may actually work to the benefit of our own system. I
>know, that jobs and probably status will be an issue here and therefore our
>objectivity may be a bit influenced, but we need to remove ourselves from
>the situation and see beyond our own interests and see the interests of
>effective and efficient administration and how it will enhance our own
>performance in terms of the gospel commission.
>
>Boyce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tankiso Letseli <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 16, 1999 3:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] TC-TOC Merger
>
>
> ÿþ
> Boyce,
>
> You do not need to be apologetic of your analysis of the leadership
>style in the Adventist Church -or 'sanctifying administration,' as you
>interestingly stated it, [your argument would still be pertinent to the
>leadership style among the so called mainstream churches] . I think your
>comments are in line with and echo the Pauline concepts of spiritual gifts
>as outlined in Eph. 4; Rom. 12:6-8 & 1 Cor. 12. The big question which begs
>for an answer is - "Is the Adventist Church [including other mainstream
>Churches] ready for a shift from Presbyterian style [leadership by
>elders/bishops] to leadership through spiritual gifts?" I don't have an
>answer for this question. Someone needs to solve this riddle.
>
> I think the Church prefers a leadership that will not only lead the
>masses into the heavenly Canaan, but also be carriers of the ethos,
>theology and essentials of Adventist faith while in pilgrimage era. This
>view may perceived to be more traditional or conventional. I also
>appreciate the fact that your synthesis of church leadership is premised on
>the plea for change. "Change" - this word frightens most people [including
>the writer] because it shakes our very comfort zone, and forces us to
>venture into the unknown, virgin grounds, un-explored frontiers and
>stimulate un-conventional thinking. I think the first step is talk about
>it before we experience this envisaged future.
>
> Jongimpi's race illustration is very interesting and frightening.
>Interesting in the sense that he rightly equates Church Unity to a race,
>but frightening in the sense that if we do not unite by choice [or
>motivated by love for one another], persecutions orchestrated from a united
>world will unavoidably unite us. And Boyce complicates it when he alludes
>to the fact that, in our quest to unify the Church, we seem to be
>implementing a borrowed solution to our divided, problematic situation.
>He says, "In fact, I make a point in my lost document that the merger was
>not 'autochtonous'---home grown. It was driven from GC and probably, the
>problems we experience regarding same are caused by this 'foreign'
>solution."
>
> One wanders whether the "foreignness" or "local-ness" of the solution
>is really a hindrance or an enhancer of Church Unity. I think the bottom
>line is - "Is the issue of Church Unity [together with other moral
>imperatives ] to be either accepted or rejected on the basis of a vote?"
>Wrong is wrong even if it enjoys majority vote. Right is right even if it
>enjoys minority vote. I think the issues at stake in the whole question of
>Church Unity are "obedience" and "rebellion" to the prayer of Jesus Christ
>[John 17:21].
>
> I partly concur with Boyce in his observation: We must merge because
>we see the need for a merger from both sides. In fact, if we all saw the
>need for merging, we would not be hindered by things like money because we
>know unity is a principle that cannot be negotiated. It is an absolute
>imperative. What if we do not see the need, but Jesus Christ does? Are we
>to leave the question of Church Unity at the mercy or discretion of what
>see and understand [or vote]? Once more, let us unite and leave the
>consequences to the Author and Prince of Peace [Jesus Christ].
>
> His coming is nearer than when we first believed.
>
> Tankiso Letseli
>
>
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