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There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Church discipline or church judgement
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
2. Cape Conference Clips
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
3. Witchcraft evangelism
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
4. FW: TC-TOC Merger
From: Tshivhenga Takalani * Group <TakalaniT@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
5. Re: Church discipline or church judgement
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
6. (no subject)
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:29:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Church discipline or church judgement
Vusi,
Thanks; you must just warn the little brothers that I required 20
live cows for lobola.
I agree with you, the church, especially young people are ignorant of
the whole process of church discipline, even the majority of those in
the church board have never read their church manuals. In almost all
the church board meetings that I have attended where an action was
taken to discipline a church member I never saw anybody read from the
church manual. So many of those who exercise church discipline are
ignorant of what is the stand of the church. To make things worse
many have their own agendas.
Our problem is that church discipline has been abuse by sinful men
who are in leadership positions in our local churches. Here is a
classical example of the abuse of church discipline. Few years ago
when evangelist Errol was "banned" from preaching (by the conference
president for no apparent reason), a group of young people decided to
run a crusade using their own money in a public hall and invited
Errol to preach. They were almost disfellowshiped for preaching the
gospel without the permission of the pastor. This is what I call
abuse of power. Only the poor and powerless gets disciplined. Is
there a problem with church discipline? No! The problem is with
sinful men who are in charge. What we need to do is to stand against
these ungodly men in high office. We know of their evil ways yet we
elect them year after year. These are the men who make God and His
system look bad. Who will stand? Stand in the name of Jehovah and say
then 'you are not fit to be in leadership'. Our problem is that we
won't stand against these man (we are too afraid of them) we would
rather change the gospel to suit man's condition. As I have said
before we need changing not the gospel. When we leave these sinful
men in charge, if they don't mess up church discipline what else are
they going to mess up? Are they going to do evangelism?
If there is an abuse of church discipline in our churches we also
realize that we are party to it if we remain silent. Even if you are
not a member of the church board you can still make a difference,
only a church in business meeting is authorized to discipline a
person. Unfortunately many of us do not have backbones. We are like
overcooked spaghetti.
Lord, have mercy on us!
Jeremiah
--- vusi kaunda <vusi12@hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com>
>
> Jeremiah,
>
> Your daughters are indeed beatiful and I will encourage all those
> with young
> sons to seriously begin Lobola negotiations with you.
>
> I am cautious not to spoil this discussion that has brought to
> light
> interesting aspect of church discipline, judgement etc. I have been
> deeply
> touched by Boyce, Jongimpi and yourself on this issue.
>
> I believe that the church at large and particularly young people
> are
> ignorant of these issues, in some cases it is sheer carelesness on
> the part
> of us leaders whilst on the other hand one experience a great
> apathy toward
> the word of God and discussion that lifts the spirit and the
> intellect
> towards religious issues and Biblical Principles in particuar.
>
> I therefore issue a challenge out there for guys who are currently
> not
> involved in teaching and mentoring young people in the church to
> begin doing
> so. We are partly responsible because of our knowledge and exposure
> to feed
> the sheep and guide the flock.
>
> I would love your response on this general opinion.
>
>
> Lft Him up.
>
>
>
> Vusi Kaunda
>
>
> >From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Church discipline or church judgement
> >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >From errors-265906-274-vusi12 Mon Sep 13 06:11:59 1999
> >Received: from [209.207.164.245] by hotmail.com (2.1) with ESMTP
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> 1999
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> Sep 1999
> >06:18:45 PDT
> >Mailing-List: list sa-sda@onelist.com; contact
> sa-sda-owner@onelist.com
> >Delivered-To: mailing list sa-sda@onelist.com
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> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:sa-sda-unsubscribe@ONElist.com>
> >
> >From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
> >
> >Boyce,
> >
> >I hope you had a good weekend. I am glad to hear that your son is
> >doing well. My daughter is also doing very well, may be one of
> this
> >days we must start talking about lobola and those kinds of
> >arrangement. Here is a link to my daughters latest pictures:
> >http://www.tagnet.org/masabatha/babygundo.html
> >
> >Boyce I would like to apologize to you for I feel like my initial
> >response to you lacked brotherly love. I feel that it encouraged
> >debate instead of a healthy Christian exchange. I am sorry.
> >
> >Back to the discussion. Thank you for your enlightenment on the
> >definition of judgement. And I will also like to thank Pastor
> Papu,
> >Nick, Daniel and Tselani for their articulate presentation. I am
> >always grateful to God for this forum; it is very rare to find
> such
> >great minds in one place.
> >
> >Let me try once more: discipline Vs judgement, Jongimpi did a good
> in
> >expressing what is also my view of judgement. Let me give another
> >illustration. As a small boy growing up in Venda, every evening we
> >would sit around the fire. My mother always told us about the
> danger
> >of playing with the fire (That's preaching the gospel). Somehow
> the
> >fire fascinated me; I would try to reach out to the grab one of
> the
> >hot coals. At this stage mother would warn me (discipline) and if
> I
> >continue she would exercise a little more serious discipline.
> >Throughout all this she never stopped telling us about the danger
> of
> >playing with the fire.
> >One day when my mother was not there, I decided to reach out and
> grab
> >on of this hot coal, and you can guess what happened, that's the
> >wages of disobedience.
> >God has given the church the authority to warn the people about
> the
> >fire.
> >The isolation associated with the church discipline is supposed to
> >the warn us of the eternal isolation that will come to pass on the
> >judgement day.
> >Even at school, there are monthly, quarterly and midyear exams
> before
> >the final exam. However the monthly exam is not the final exam.
> >
> >Let's continue to search the scriptures.
> >
> >He is coming to judge!
> >
> >Jeremiah
> >
> >
> >
> >--- "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> wrote:
> > > I must say, I like your balanced view of the issues debated
> herein.
> > >
> > > I think I must concede and acknowledge that encouraging each
> other
> > > is actually discipline. I agree that disciplining entails
> > > nurturing and reproving and that we are actually our brother's
> > > keeper in so far as we are expected to transform the tares into
> > > wheat. Discipline as a form of nurture and building the
> church, I
> > > think this is exactly the approach we should be pursuing.
> > >
> > > Let me illustrate this point by asking what does censure or
> > > disfellowship achieve? At the end of the disfellowship period,
> > > someone is rebaptised and they can fully participate in the
> life of
> > > the church. But, what have we achieved by sending him to this
> > > forced holiday? It may be argued that this is strong statement
> of
> > > disapproval of the unbecoming behaviour. But is it really
> strong?
> > >
> > >
> > > Nurture, encourage in the interim, God will finally judge.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Boyce
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> > > To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> > > Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 12:06 AM
> > > Subject: [sa-sda] Church discipline or church judgement
> > >
> > >
> > > Boyce
> > >
> > > It is time to fulfil the promise I made on Thursday. I
> must
> > > say I enjoy the views expressed here on this topic, at the risk
> of
> > > repeating what has been said, I would like to make few
> > > observations.
> > >
> > > Your question, do we have the right as a church to
> administer
> > > discipline, or should we not let the person recuse
> himself/herself?
> > > It looks like this is where Jerry picked up some resistance,
> that
> > > is to your usage and understanding of Judgement. You have
> > > convincingly made your point, as to the interrelatedness of
> > > discipline and judging, and I concur with you. But Jerry is
> also
> > > correct in reminding us that we should not judge, so according
> to
> > > Jerry the church is not involved in judging but in
> disciplining,
> > > the two are not the same, as he puts it. Since both positions
> can
> > > be justified scripturally, the best is to reconcile these
> seemingly
> > > contradictory positions. The context, and not the
> dictionary, is
> > > usually the best place to look for a meaning of a word. For
> us to
> > > know what judging is and means, let us allow the Bible to judge
> and
>
=== message truncated ===
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:48:07 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Cape Conference Clips
IN THIS ISSUE
THANKS FOR THE ENCOURAGEMENT
AFRIKAANSE BYBELS GESOEK
PLUMSTEAD/WYNBERG VBS
120 YEAR ANNIVERSARY CELEBRATIONS
PLAN TO ATTEND
THANKS FOR THE ENCOURAGEMENT
After the CCC I sent yesterday I received a message from one of our church members which brought a great deal of encouragement to the du Preez's and to our office family.
"Please let Hercules du Preez and his family know that he is in very capable hands with Prof Peter Jacobs. He is not only the very best in the world on marrow transplants, but also our brother-in-law.
Talk about a small world!! He has recently done a transplant on Elsabe Rall, a lady who works with me, and they think he is wonderful. She is completely cured and only goes for a check-up every 4 months. Peter has something like 14 degrees behind his name and travels the world over to give lectures at universities - so they can rest assured. They can phone Elsabe Rall .... just to talk to her and get first-hand information on the little things that one has to keep in mind.
We will pray for him and his family - please tell them to keep courage!"
120 YEAR CELEBRATIONS
The Seventh-Day Adventist Church is celebrating 120 years of Youth ministry. 120 Years ago Luther Warren and Henry Fenner were inspired to launch the first youth organisation.
From those small beginnings, in Hazelton, USA, Adventist youth International is ministering to the Adventist youth around the world. Two thirds of the 11 million baptised members are young people.
Let's find ways to celebrate this anniversary in every church!
PLUMSTEAD/WYNBERG VBS/HAPPY HOLIDAY CLUB
Robyn Dalbock is still in need of a helper for the Kindergarten children and of people who can help with crafts. The people to help with crafts need only be there from 10:30-12:00. Telephone 701 2920
AFRIKAANSE BYBELS GESOEK
A Branch Sabbath School in Macassar is in need of 30 Afrikaans Bibles for the children attending. Anyone who can donate Bibles whether old or new is asked to telephone Bokkie Kern at 853 2813. Perhaps there is a Sabbath School class that would be willing to adopt this as an outreach project?
PLAN TO ATTEND
24 September, Heritage Day Celebrations, Helderberg College (Call Pastor Moya at 021 8551210)
2 October, (15:00-17:00) Senior Sabbath Superintendent and Teacher training. Mowbray Church
8, 9 October, Claremont Civic Centre, 120 Youth Anniversary Celebration, Pastor Papu guest speaker and praise and worship music by UCT, SOIL [Serving Others in love] and others.
29-31 October, Adventist Women's Retreat, Ardis Stenbakken speaker (GC AWM Leader), Cape Town (More details to follow)
6-9 December, Junior Camp, Baines Kloof, Pastors Sandy Pairman and Darrel le Roux to lead this camp. Booking at Cape Conference
12-19 December, Youth connection, Helderberg College, Dr Baraka Muganda speaker. Booking at Cape Conference [Church Boards are you choosing your delegates?]
Net New York discussion and training for this weekend has been postponed. Will keep you posted.
[Shirley Allen, Church Ministries Director, Cape Conference]
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:19:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Witchcraft evangelism
Friends,
Evangelism is one of the subjects that are of great interest to me.
The Adventist message is spreading like wild fire all over Africa
with the exception of Southern Africa. In South Africa we have a
population of over 40 million and yet we have only 70 thousand
Adventists. Our union (SAUC) is the size (membership wise) of one
field in Malawi. What has gone wrong in Southern Africa? Can we blame
it on apartheid?
Unlike the SDA church there are some churches that are experiencing
growth in SA viz. ZCC, African Apostolic churches etc. What is the
secret of their success? Some of their success can be attributed to
what I call 'witchcraft evangelism.' Many of our people are afraid of
witchcraft, so the gospel that can address the witchcraft problem is
well received. I guess there is a difference when you feed the fish
the bait that you like and when you feed the fish the bait that it
likes. It is like giving a patient a malaria pill when he is
suffering from polio.
Leaders of these churches usually go to a member's home in the middle
of the night, put some strings around the house, and then declare the
house witchcraft proof. Or lay hands on the members and them certify
them to be witchcraft proof.
Is there anything wrong with witchcraft evangelism? Will it be wrong
if an Adventist pastor goes to the member's house and pray for it to
be protected from witches?
Few years ago I heard that one of our church members (a well-educated
professional) invited a witch doctor to come and protect his house.
So our members feel that the church (or the God of their church) can
not protect them from witches.
What are your views?
Go tell it to the mountains!
Jeremiah
===
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
Jeremiah Ravhengani
Moderator (Masabatha Online)
www.masabatha.org
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:40:07 +0200
From: Tshivhenga Takalani * Group <TakalaniT@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: FW: TC-TOC Merger
-----Original Message-----
From: Tshivhenga Takalani * Group [mailto:TakalaniT@Transnet.co.za]
Sent: 07 September 1999 08:48
To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com'
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] TC-TOC Merger
From: Tshivhenga Takalani * Group <TakalaniT@Transnet.co.za>
Hey friends
My personal opinion is that merger of two conferences i.e. TC and TOC is a
nice to have. Why don't we forget it and preach the word untill the lord
returns.
I ponder, what if Abraham and Lot did not separate and each go their own
way, some of us would not be marveling the care and love of the good lord
when He went out of His way to follow Lot from Sodom.
Of course we have to care about them but I feel let them go on and serve
their Lord the way that satisfies their calling.
He is even at the door.
Takalani wa Tshivhenga
-----Original Message-----
From: Lungani Mfeka [mailto:MfekaL@telkom.co.za]
Sent: 06 September 1999 15:48
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] TC-TOC Merger
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Jerry,
May be we do need one conference office in the TC-TOC territtory. But
this need not be driven by external pressures, whether politically or by
mere observation of other churches. It need not be an imperative action
either, because it surely will not work out as it would have if the
constituency saw the internal reason for the merger/unity. A person
convinced against his beliefs is still of the same conviction.
What I am trying to say is that may be it is not the right time for us
to force and foster this unity if the hearts are not yet ready.
It surprises me, though, that it is the PROPHETIC CHURCH OF THE LAST
DAYS that fails to live us to its own teachings. This actually is a
dissappointment. May be one should just hold on to the knowledge that
our Father in heaven is one and will never give divided attention to
those who worship him in truth.
Even though come Lord Jesus.
Lungani
>>> Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com> 09/06/99 02:41PM >>>
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:23:01 -0700
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Church discipline or church judgement
Jerry,
Your daughter is very nice and I know that because your daughter is
American, there is no Lobola culture in America--good news for my son isn't?
At least the Lobola budget will be used to celebrate.
I just like this forum because we share in love. I have not felt that your
contribution lacked brotherly love. As long as we argue the point and not
the man, we are fine. I think maturity calls for understanding that there
may be another viewpoint. So rest assured Chief, there is nothing
whatsoever that was wrong with your input.
Your input regarding men of sin conducting disciplinar hearings has also
been well taken. Yes, abuse of this sacred business is prevalent. We can
only pray for the constant connection with the mighty Hand above.
I also liked your 'witchcraft evangelism' strategy, except that there is
more to it than meets the eye. Some of these people also think they will be
rich, in fact they get promised some riches. But, it does not detract from
the point that, as Fitz Henry did, we can cure AIDS, cancer and all dreaded
disease only as we lay our hands on them that are ill and call on His
powerful Name. This, is a gospel that is alive.
Go ye therefore...
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Church discipline or church judgement
>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
>Boyce,
>
>I hope you had a good weekend. I am glad to hear that your son is
>doing well. My daughter is also doing very well, may be one of this
>days we must start talking about lobola and those kinds of
>arrangement. Here is a link to my daughters latest pictures:
>http://www.tagnet.org/masabatha/babygundo.html
>
>Boyce I would like to apologize to you for I feel like my initial
>response to you lacked brotherly love. I feel that it encouraged
>debate instead of a healthy Christian exchange. I am sorry.
>
>Back to the discussion. Thank you for your enlightenment on the
>definition of judgement. And I will also like to thank Pastor Papu,
>Nick, Daniel and Tselani for their articulate presentation. I am
>always grateful to God for this forum; it is very rare to find such
>great minds in one place.
>
>Let me try once more: discipline Vs judgement, Jongimpi did a good in
>expressing what is also my view of judgement. Let me give another
>illustration. As a small boy growing up in Venda, every evening we
>would sit around the fire. My mother always told us about the danger
>of playing with the fire (That's preaching the gospel). Somehow the
>fire fascinated me; I would try to reach out to the grab one of the
>hot coals. At this stage mother would warn me (discipline) and if I
>continue she would exercise a little more serious discipline.
>Throughout all this she never stopped telling us about the danger of
>playing with the fire.
>One day when my mother was not there, I decided to reach out and grab
>on of this hot coal, and you can guess what happened, that's the
>wages of disobedience.
>God has given the church the authority to warn the people about the
>fire.
>The isolation associated with the church discipline is supposed to
>the warn us of the eternal isolation that will come to pass on the
>judgement day.
>Even at school, there are monthly, quarterly and midyear exams before
>the final exam. However the monthly exam is not the final exam.
>
>Let's continue to search the scriptures.
>
>He is coming to judge!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>
>
>--- "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> wrote:
>> I must say, I like your balanced view of the issues debated herein.
>>
>> I think I must concede and acknowledge that encouraging each other
>> is actually discipline. I agree that disciplining entails
>> nurturing and reproving and that we are actually our brother's
>> keeper in so far as we are expected to transform the tares into
>> wheat. Discipline as a form of nurture and building the church, I
>> think this is exactly the approach we should be pursuing.
>>
>> Let me illustrate this point by asking what does censure or
>> disfellowship achieve? At the end of the disfellowship period,
>> someone is rebaptised and they can fully participate in the life of
>> the church. But, what have we achieved by sending him to this
>> forced holiday? It may be argued that this is strong statement of
>> disapproval of the unbecoming behaviour. But is it really strong?
>>
>>
>> Nurture, encourage in the interim, God will finally judge.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Boyce
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>> Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 12:06 AM
>> Subject: [sa-sda] Church discipline or church judgement
>>
>>
>> Boyce
>>
>> It is time to fulfil the promise I made on Thursday. I must
>> say I enjoy the views expressed here on this topic, at the risk of
>> repeating what has been said, I would like to make few
>> observations.
>>
>> Your question, do we have the right as a church to administer
>> discipline, or should we not let the person recuse himself/herself?
>> It looks like this is where Jerry picked up some resistance, that
>> is to your usage and understanding of Judgement. You have
>> convincingly made your point, as to the interrelatedness of
>> discipline and judging, and I concur with you. But Jerry is also
>> correct in reminding us that we should not judge, so according to
>> Jerry the church is not involved in judging but in disciplining,
>> the two are not the same, as he puts it. Since both positions can
>> be justified scripturally, the best is to reconcile these seemingly
>> contradictory positions. The context, and not the dictionary, is
>> usually the best place to look for a meaning of a word. For us to
>> know what judging is and means, let us allow the Bible to judge and
>> may we respect its verdict. I want to take the advice that Jerry
>> gave me some time ago, that when I am in doubt I should follow the
>> light, seriously.
>>
>> 1. The Bible in support of not judging
>> One cannot be in doubt that the Bible is very explicit when it
>> comes to the issue of judging. We are admonished not to judge.
>> Allow me to indicate this by looking at a few texts
>> a.. Matthew. 7:1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be
>> judged...", here we are told that we cannot judge because we have
>> limited vision/understanding - "Why do you look at a a speck of
>> sawdust in one's eye when you have s plank in yours , first removed
>> and then you will see" It is my opinion that the removing of the
>> plank from my eye is a life long process, and as such, I will never
>> be qualified to judge, until that day (more about that later)
>> b.. Romans 14:4,10 ,13 "why do you judge your brother, or
>> why do you look down on your brother, for we will stand at God's
>> judgement seat... let us stop passing judgement on one another"
>> Here judging is somehow, interpreted as "looking down on your
>> brother", condemning is also the other meaning(vs.)
>> c.. James 4:11-12 "Brothers do not slander one another,
>> anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him, speaks against
>> the law and judges it..." We see here that slandering and speaking
>> against a brother is tantamount for judging him.
>> d.. 1 Corinthians 4:5 "Judge nothing before the appointed
>> time, wait till the Lord comes, He will bring to light what is
>> hidden and will expose motives of men's hearts." Here we are
>> admonished to wait, and allow Christ to do the judging, since He
>> alone can read the motives of the heart
>> Without boring you with all the details, I think the above is
>> sufficient to at least show that the Bible is against judging. So
>> Jerry is correct, if we as a church are judging, we are in
>> violation of the above.
>>
>> 2. Bible in support of judging
>> It can also be shown that the Bible does speak of judging as
>> something that we should and can do. The few texts may help,
>> a.. 1 Cor. 5:12; 6:1-7 here we are told that we are to
>> judge those who are inside(church) God will take care of those who
>> are outside. (Thanks to Dan for this one) The second passage
>> encourages us to judge trivial cases, and to refrain from taking
>> each other to courts of law, we are to do the judging ourselves.
>> This is premised on the fact that we will judge the world one day,
>> so we might as well start now. We are even encouraged to appoint
>> Judges within the church to do this job.
>> How do we reconcile the above positions, bearing in mind that
>> the Bible cannot contradict itself. Briefly for lack of space, the
>> first view seems to have a ring of finality. It deals with one's
>> destiny, there is no opportunity to change. It is more of
>> condemnation than discipline and only God can do it, for He is the
>> only one who has all the facts. The second leans more on
>> discipline and correcting, deciding who is wrong and who is right
>> or whether the behaviour is acceptable or not. The Bible says we
>> can do the second one. "You shall know them by their fruit, but
>> this should not lead us to a point where we condemn them, for the
>> Bible does not maintain that, once a bad fruit always a bad fruit.
>> The important thing is what we do when we recognise the fruit, do
>> we despise the brother, look down on him, no with love we seek to
>> win him back.
>>
>> Boyce maintains that what we can do is to encourage one another
>> to look at the cross, but that is what discipline is supposed to
>> do. It is one way of encouraging each other. Discipline does
>> not need to be disfellowship or censure to be effective, it can
>> also mean talking to the brother who has a problem and praying with
>> him, that is discipline. The church can also discipline by
>> calling those affected and talking to them showing them their
>> wrongs. Our preaching can also serve as discipline, I have
>> witnessed people crying during preaching, for they realise the
>> wrong they have done (not always). The community of believers if
>> it wants to live to its name, must find time to discipline to
>> nurture and to reprove. That is the judging we can do and are
>> encouraged to do. "Let them grow together"? but it still our
>> responsibility to help the tares become the wheat, in the meantime.
>>
>> How can discipline be done, when we ourselves are sinners?
>> This to my opinion is what Boyce is opposed to. This is
>> understandable especially when one notes the harm at times we as
>> the church do when it comes to disciplining. But the Bible says
>> we must, it is our task, we cannot fold hands and say the Lord will
>> do it, for His will be final, we must let Him show us how to help
>> each other in the interim. "By their fruit we shall know them", is
>> not as easy as it sounds. take the case of pregnancy, for on the
>> surface it seems easy. What we usually do, is to look at the
>> tummy and call the church board, disfellowship or censure being
>> the end result. but is this fair,? Below are some of the reasons
>> a person might be pregnant/
>> a.. Rape - how do you know whether one's pregnancy is as
>> a result of rape, even by a boy friend. Do you discipline the
>> victim, for lack of physical strength or moral strength? In other
>> cases people are known to have been made to sleep with their
>> partners, after being drugged, how do you decide in that case?
>> b.. Ignorance - I know you might laugh at this, some can be
>> pregnant simply because of ignorance. In these days, when there is
>> tendency to rush people for baptism, without proper teaching, this
>> is possible. Some may think,as other Christian do, that as long as
>> you are planning to get married there is no problem. Here the
>> person to be discipline is the church that failed in its
>> responsibility to teach.
>> c.. Momentary weakness - for lack of a better word. It is
>> not always the case that pregnancy is the sign of rebellion. It
>> could be one moment of carelessness, which the person regrets for
>> the rest of her life. But to treat this person as if she is a
>> heathen is not right.
>> d.. Act of rebellion - there will always be those who plan
>> to be pregnant for various reasons, who go to the extent of
>> repeating the same sin again and again. What do we do in this
>> case?
>> If we must help , we must know what the causes of the problem
>> are, otherwise we will be irrelevant and cruel at times. To do
>> this we need God's guidance, we need each other, to make sure that
>> we are not prejudiced against the person, try to be as objective as
>> possible, we must talk to the person, ask him to give his side of
>> the story. This needs time if we must do it right. The tendency
>> to rush these matters has often led to more wounds being inflicted
>> on the victims. Some may want to recuse themselves, as Boyce
>> suggests, but this also must be approved by the church, for one can
>> do it out of ignorance.
>>
>> In short, Boyce to me it seems as if as a church we have the
>> right and the responsibility to discipline as a form of nurture and
>> building of the church. Yes there are problems around this, If I
>> had time I could give you a list of them.
>>
>> "So make it your goal to please him,.... for we must all appear
>> before the judgement seat of Christ, that each may receive what is
>> due him, for the things done while in the body, whether good or
>> bad" 2 Cor. 5:9-10.
>>
>> He must come to judge the world.
>>
>> Jongimpi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> First of all, here we have a war of terminology, and each seems
>> to think he has the right definition while the other is wrong. I
>> believe that both Jerry while on the surface appear to be opposed,
>> are essentially correct, their understanding seems ton be the two
>> sides of the same coin. Jerry maintains that we should not judge,
>> he is correct and that is biblical as I will show. Boyce
>> articulates his position convincingly,that we are to judge and we
>> do judge, he is also correct and his position is also biblical.
>> Maybe Jerry's attempt to separate discipline from judging was a
>> little one sided, as shown by Boyce.
>>
>> I want to attempt to show that both positions are biblical and
>> that our task is to rather explain what we mean by the terms we
>> use.
>=== message truncated ===
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:36:34 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: (no subject)
A young boy had just gotten his driver's permit and inquired of his
father, an evangelist, if they could discuss the use of the car.
His father took him to the study and said to the boy, "I'll make a deal
with
you son. You bring your grades up from a C to a B-average, study your
Bible
a little, and get your hair cut and we'll talk about the car."
Well, the boy thought about it for a moment and decided that he'd best
settle for the offer, and they agreed.
After about six weeks the boy came back and again asked his father about
the
car. Again they went to the study where his father said, "Son, I've been
real proud of you. You've brought your grades up, and I've observed that
you've been studying your Bible and participating a lot more in the Bible
study class on Sunday mornings. But I'm real disappointed that you haven't
got your hair cut."
The young man paused a moment and then said, "You know Dad, I've been
thinking about that, and I've noticed in my studies of the Bible that
Samson
had long hair, Moses had long hair, John the Baptist had long hair, and
there's even strong argument that Jesus Himself had long hair."
To which his father replied, "You're right son. Did you also notice that
they all WALKED everywhere they went?"
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