There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: TC-TOC - Church Unity
           From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Cape Conference Clips
           From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
      3. Fw: Undeliverable message, returning to sender
           From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
      4. Re: Church discipline or church judgement
           From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
      5. Re: Church discipline or church judgement
           From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
      6. Re: Church discipline or church judgement
           From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
      7. Re: Church discipline or church judgement
           From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:31:31 PDT
   From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: TC-TOC - Church Unity


Dear Tankiso

Mr President I thank you for your response on this matter. In your reaction 
you give me the impression that I am critical unnecessary of which I will 
not respond on personal attack.

I am happy though that you allude to the fact that communication  is not 
transmitted properly to the general membership. I would encourage you to 
remind the leaders that any form of communication written, or transmitted 
verbally to them should be forwarded to members and not end on their desks.

I am sorry if this sounded as frustration.

>From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Subject: [sa-sda] TC-TOC - Church Unity
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:31:06 +0200
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>
>I observed that my responses to Nikelo Bangisi and Mashudu Ravhengani on 
>the issue of TC-TOC "Church Unity" have evoked and stimulated discussions. 
>Your comments, reaction and interaction on/to the subject prove to me that 
>you actually engaged yourselves with my contribution, and I appreciate 
>that.  I was impressed by the way you reflected, analysed the whole process 
>of Church Unity.  I also accept that there is a somewhat wide gulf between 
>encoding [the message that is transmitted - spoken or written] and decoding 
>[the message that is understood - hearing or understanding].
>
>1.  Responding to Vusi Kaunda's frustration - "the lack of proper 
>communication by the TOC and local church delegation."  I appreciate the 
>fact that Vusi recognises that there is communication, but it is not 
>proper.  We live in the information age and we owe it to ourselves to be 
>informed. We cannot leave this aspect of life at the mercy of those who 
>should provide information.  It is also true that in the absence of 
>sufficient information, people tend to be suspicious and susceptible to 
>creating their own realities or worldview, and the inevitable consequences 
>might be wrong conclusions and misinformed, misguided actions. The TOC is 
>also concerned about the fact that she employs several modes of 
>communication - ranging from letters, Sessions to available forums in the 
>district and local levels. It is apparent that the TOC's loudness is 
>experienced as silence to some. The TOC has just released a mid-year 
>12-page report last month [August 1999], and the subject at issue is part 
>of that report. It behoves you to study that report. It appears to me that 
>Vusi Kaunda, [together with others who share his sentiments], is either not 
>a member of church board, or does not attend some of church business 
>meetings, or there are no church business meetings in his church - which is 
>unlikely, or he forgets church announcements - a possibility, or does not 
>mandate and demand a report from his church delegate to the session -  
>which is likely.  In this case we can but do little to help.
>
>2.  Responding to Lungani and Nikelo's interpretation - "you have this 
>target of 34 718 total membership in the TOC for financial purposes more 
>than 'spreading the word'"? It is interesting to note that God created us 
>differently in that one statement - "in the interim..." can be understood 
>differently by different persons.  One wanders if the issue is actually 
>people's different frames of reference instead of the statement itself. It 
>is true that what we are and have experienced tend to influence our 
>interpretation and reflection of what we see and encounter. If this is 
>true, then one cannot be fully held accountable for people's conclusions 
>because one had no share in the formation of people's worldview. I agree 
>with Mashudu Ravhengani that "May be the statement 'In the interim,' might 
>be what lead to the misunderstanding."  The unfortunate eventuality is that 
>what you misunderstood might actually be an understanding to you, and may 
>unavoidably become the premise of your arguments.
>
>The intention of my statement was not to link "church growth" to or make it 
>the aim and motivation of "Church Unity" talks.  The Gospel cannot and 
>should not be commercialised. The Gospel was intended to save sinners, but 
>not for "merger" or marriage.  We cannot begin to sacrifice the gospel at 
>the alter of our quest to "unite." This would be tantamount to the 
>perversion of the Gospel. The two items ["Church Growth" and "Church 
>Unity"], in my statement, should be understood to be separate and 
>independent of each.  The "Church Growth" programme preceded and transcends 
>"Church Unity." The "Church Growth" programme existed in the TOC prior to 
>the recent Session, and also prior to "Church Unity" talks.
>
>I think it is obvious in most cases that "numerical growth" gives birth to 
>"financial growth."  These two are naturally linked, but they should not be 
>interpreted [in the context of my statement] to mean "a motivation for 
>Church Unity." Mashudu Ravhengani, [together with those who might have 
>understood my statements but did not air their views], has succinctly 
>captured the gist of my comments in his expression:  "I didn't understand 
>him to be saying that they set a goal of doubling the membership in order 
>to meet the demands of the TC, nor that the goal of doubling the membership 
>was set in order to improve the financial situation of the conference."
>
>
>3.  To Unite or not to Unite? - I think this is a wrong question, and if we 
>pursue it - we will arrive at wrong answers.  The right question should be 
>"How do we Unite as a Church?"  I think Church Unity is right at Jesus 
>Christ's prayer - in effect, a moral imperative:  "My prayer is not for 
>them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their 
>message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in Me and I 
>am in You. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you 
>have sent Me," John 17:20-21 NIV.  The word "one" should be interpreted to 
>mean "united" in love, mission, purpose, fellowship and worship [worship?]. 
>  This "oneness" should not in anyway be understood as an opportunity of 
>engaging in deculturisation [stripping one of his/her culture] or 
>acculturation [take over of one culture by another] or ethnocentricism 
>[using one's own culture to positively or negatively evaluate and despise 
>other cultures].  I think Church Unity is more complex than discussed here. 
>  I think we should take the risk of uniting, and then leave the 
>consequences to the Lord, Jesus Christ because He prayed for it - and also 
>as an answer to His prayer.
>
>Tankiso Letseli
>


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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:14:51 +0200
   From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Cape Conference Clips

In this issue
THANK YOU 
CAMP MEETING IN NAMIBIA  
MISSION QUARTERLIES HELD AT CUSTOMS
RESOURCES


THANK YOU (Hercules and Antoinetta du Preez and sons)
We just want to thank you for the prayers gently assuring us of God's love.
The Lord has been good to us and we are able to have a life as near to
normal as possible.  Life goes on... Hercules still goes into the office daily...doing the
normal routine he so enjoys.His whistling fills the office and all is well with the balancing of the balance sheets. So totally dedicated.
He goes to work with a cooler bag filled with freshly juiced carrot, beet root and "green vegs"  orange juice grape juice some pro vita's and apples. He lost +- 15 kg in 3 months. We have long walks and feeding the ducks at the Helderberg pond (dam) is a daily pleasure. Walks on the harbour walls where he used to angle as a child brings backgood memories. And just having a good time as a family.
    
In all our difficulties, perplexities, trials and tribulations it will help us to remember 
 that we have to take but one step at a time    Let us ask God to help us take that one step bravely an unfalteringly

Tomorrow's strength is very largely the heritage of today's patient striving    Live for today! Tomorrow's light, tomorrow's cares shall bring to sight    Go sleep like closing flowers at night and Heaven thy morn will bless.
                                           John Kebble.


The fourth chemotherapy session was a bit more gruelling to Hercules' system but 14 days later he is feeling much better.....untill the next session on the 27th,28th and
29th of September.

If all goes well a bone marrow transplant will be done in November.  Advised by Prof. Pete Jacobs, Hercules must refrain from shop, groups off people and hall gatherings.
His immune system is so ragged that the slightest flu can turn into pneumonia.
We enjoy bible reading and prayer at home but still miss sabbath school and church and the friendliness of our church folk.  A lonely road this chemo road, but from above all the Fathers love   is lifting all this painful load with the hope of a blessed morning.
May the Rock of Ages be your constant companion.
Loving thoughts
Hercules and Antoinetta du Preez and sons

CAMPMEETING IN NAMIBIA  (Heather Tredoux, VOP Director)
There were 17 000 at campmeeting in Katima Mulilo, 234 people were baptized in the Zambezi. 

In Bushmanland, which is 200 km east of Grootfontein had a baptism of 32 baptized.   At the meetings there were thousands of well-behaved children.   They have the most adorable children, shy and sweet.  

MISSIONS QUARTERLIES HELD AT CUSTOMS
Once again our Mission Quarterlies are being held by Customs. GC has faxed the Commissioner in Pretoria and we are waiting for the exemption certificate to release the books. We are hoping that they will not be delayed too much longer as we would like to get them to the churches on time.

RESOURCES
Does Jesus Really Care?
This is the title of a new tract produced by Pastor Mbaza, the Personal Ministries Director at the SAU. It sells at the price of R30 per 100. The front has a full coloured picture of a hand sheltering a dove from a storm. The tract is to be used as  a witnessing tool.

We would like orders from the churches by 27 September so we can place a bulk order. It is available in English, Afrikaans, Sesotho, Xhosa and Zulu.



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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:34:18 -0700
   From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
Subject: Fw: Undeliverable message, returning to sender


-----Original Message-----
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To: bhizaman@aec.co.za <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 2:06 AM
Subject: Undeliverable message, returning to sender


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>From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
>To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:08:00 -0700
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>
>I am enjoying this debate.  I will respond briefly to Nikelo, Tselane and
>yourself, Daniel.
>
>1)    Nikelo
>
>The fact that we are grappling with matters of proportionality or
>disproportionality in discipline effected in our churches, can only attest
>to the wickedness of men and therefore his unsuitability to handle the
>matters of discipline.  You employ a strong statement by saying : 'I submit
>therefore that Jesus gave the church full authority to exercise judgement
>and punishment in His absence.'  Firstly, you omitted to substantiate the
>basis of this conclusion.  You were talking about proportionality problem
>and then arrived at this conclusion without showing us your basis thereof.
>Secondly,  I do not think, with respect, our Divine commission was to act
in
>disciplinary cases in the absence of Christ.  I believe our commission is
to
>represent the character of Christ but not to deal with those who fail or
>struggle to represent His cause.  You see Christ dealt with sin and in the

>process sinners were helped.  Our sermons do not seem, of late, to be
>touching on sin itself.  I think this is where our emphasis should lie.
>
>2.    Daniel
>
>Yes, apostle Paul may have written the verses you qouted the way he did,
but
>I believe that if these verses were to be taken literally, we would have
>empty churches today.  When Paul says drive out the wicked one among you,
he
>does not mean this in a literal sense, for this would make a mockery of the
>very foundations of salvation and redemptive love.  The Church, as I argue
>in my paper, must be the incubator of the wicked to nurture and encourage
>them.  You see discipline often brings into mind on the disciplined the
>state of the discipliner.   You see people would not take the justice
system
>seriously if they knew that the administrators of justice are also guilty
of
>the same offences they punish others on.  Sometimes, the disciplined knows
>even much more of the sins of the discipliner and inevitably, the trust is
>destroyed hence the holier than thou thoughts begin to creep in.  So I read
>Paul to be saying do not keep silent in the midst of perversion and sin.
>Speak out and go the erring brother in encouraging him not disciplining
him.
>
>3.) Tselane
>
>Your submission confused me a bit.  At one stage you talk about expelling
>the wicked man from among you and later on, you talk about restoring him
>gently.  Restoration and expulsion seem to be two opposite ends.  My
>position is, like David pleading for his son Absalom, please deal gently,
>for my sake, with the young man Absalom.  Again, the connotation of
>expulsion has been canvassed, I guess sufficiently above.
>
>You also make reference to a democratic church.  May I just warn that I
have
>seen masses agreeing on the wrong---the concept of democracy.
>
>The issue of refusal to recognise properly constituted church authority
>being sinful.   By way of an example : we have a district council and for
>argument sake, it is agreed at that council that no church will within the
>district should invite a speaker from another church without getting
>approval from the district council.  Obviously, this has a lot of
>implications for implementation.  I raise my objection towards purely for
>pragmatic reasons, but protocol wins the day.  I invite speakers to my
>church and they win souls but I am persecuted for not following the
decision
>of the district council which I disagree with.  Eventually, I am declared
>persona non grata, is this justified.  Yes, democracy would have won the
>day---but what sin have I committed?  You see sin is transgression of God's
>law not man's law.
>
>Again, I still remain unclear what the scriptural of biblical basis is for
>discipline.
>
>Shall we gather at the river!
>
>Boyce Mkhize
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tselane Letseli <tletseli@nwpg.org.za>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 6:20 AM
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>
>
>>From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@nwpg.org.za>
>>
>>Boyce,
>>
>>This is a thought provoking paper indeed. Incidentally Pastor Solly Kubeka
>>presented a lecture on Church Discipline to senior youth on Sabbath
>>afternoon in the Mafikeng District Camp Meeting. In my response to your
>>paper I will quote 3 approaches to discipline which were depicted in
>>Solly's presentation.
>>
>>The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary's definition of discipline
states;
>>Training especially of the mind and character to produce self-control,
>>habits of obedience.
>>
>>The three approaches to discipline are 1) the judgmental approach, 2) the
>>ostrich/head in the sand approach and 3) the redemptive approach.
>>
>>The judgmental approach
>>
>>People who use this approach are guilt ridden, they depend on hear-say and
>>accuse without finding facts.  This approach is cruel, vindictive,
>>destructive and justice is never considered when this approach is
>>administered. A typical example of the use of this approach is that of the
>>Pharisees when they brought a caught in the act of adultery to Jesus.
Where
>>was the other party? The motive of the Pharisees was not to discipline,
>>infact they could care less about the welfare of the poor woman. It is
>>amazing that Jesus could read through their wicked minds. This is an
>>unchristian approach.
>>
>>The second approach is the ostrich approach where church members will
>>pretend not to see when a brother/sister trespasses by simply deeping
their
>>head in the sand, it's none of their business anyway. An example of this
>>approach is found in 1 Cor. 5  where the church did nothing when a brother
>>was practicing sexual immorality openly.  Often we meet our fellow
brothers
>>and sisters doing wrong and pretend not to see them so that they won't
have
>>to explain themselves to us. Paul says in verse 6; "Don't you know that a
>>little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?" Normally when a
>>church practice this approach, the consciences of church members are
>>dampened, and moral standards are compromised. It becomes acceptable for
an
>>unmarried couple to cohabit and still be elected to church office. This
>>approach is as destructive as the judgmental approach, after all we are
our
>>brother's keepers.
>>
>>The last approach is the redemptive which is based on Mat.18: 15 - 17.
This
>>passage provides the general principle of how discipline should be
>>administered whether a brother/sister sins against an individual or God.
If
>>this principle is administered according to its chronological steps as
>>stated in Mat 18, we wouldn't be discussing a lot of cases in our church
>>boards and business meetings and surely there would be few censures or
>>disfellowships. This approach makes it difficult for the church to reach
>>the very last option in discipline which is disfellowship. In Galatians 6:
>>1 Paul says "Brothers if someone is caught in sin, you who are spiritual
>>should restore him gently. But watch yourself or you also may be tempted."
>>In this verse Paul is dealing with atittudes and perceptions of church
>>members towards the brother/sister who has sinned. This brings us to your
>>question "Who gaves the church the authority to discipline?"
>>
>>Christ himself gave the church the authority to disfellowship, Mat 18:17
>>says "... treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Jesus here
is
>>actually saying if the brother/sister neglects to hear the church we
should
>>treat him/her as if he was never a church member/baptised. Paul reiterates
>>this in 1 Cor. 5:13 "... expel the wicked man from among you."
>>
>>Note that in Gal. 6:1 Paul doesn't say "you who are righteous", I guess he
>>acknowledges the fact that our righteousness are as filthy rags in God's
>>sight. Paul assumes that those who administer discipline are walking in
the
>>Spirit hence he said  "you who are spiritual."  I'd like to believe that a
>>spiritual person is not perfect but striving for perfection.
>>
>>Paul futher says "we should restore him gently". I'd like to believe that
>>Paul would like ua to take into cognisence the importance of our attitudes
>>when administering discipline. When we discipline, we are not repairing
>>rather we are restoring - an effort of placing someone to his/her
origional
>>state- and the adjective is gently. Paul requests us to engage in this
>>process gently. He further requires us to loose the "hollier than thou"
>>attitude by warning us to watch ourselves lest we be tempted. He also
urges
>>us to bear each other's burdens in verse 2. In essence, Paul is advising
us
>>to do more than being our brother's keepers by taking care of each other.
>>Verse 10 he says "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto
all
>>men , especially unto them who are of the household of faith (family of
>>believers)".
>>
>>Coming to the question of the "Grevious Sin" you equired if "persistent
>>refusal to recognise properly constituted church authority may be a
>>sufficient cause for disfellowship is really sin." I think our God is a
God
>>of order hence there are laws and procedures in the church. I also believe
>>that it is not the magnitude but rather the attitude of the person that
>>censure or disfellowship is executed. If one question constituted church
>>authotrity which the entire church recognises, it would be difficult for
>>one to even attend church since he/she does not have confidance in the
very
>>church authority. I believe our church is a democratic church, if one
>>presents his/her case, is given a hearing and proper procedure is
exercised
>>for the two parties to present their cases, whoever is in the wrong should
>>be willing to be humble to admit the guilt. If it is an individual who is
>>in the wrong and he/she refuses to humble himself/herself, as Jesus said
>>the church can treat the individual as if he/she were a tax collector. But
>>remember, the idea of discipline is to train/restore the mind and
character
>>to habits of obedience.
>>
>>I am a believer in treating each case according to its merits. A case may
>>be the same at face value but the cirsumstances may be different. For
>>example, a case of a young man who impregnates a young woman whom he is
>>angaged to is different from a case of a young man who impregnates a young
>>woman whom he claims he doesn't love and has no intentions of marrying. At
>>face value the two cases are the same but the conditions are defferent. It
>>would be unjust to execute a similar disciplinary measures to the two
cases
>>because the disciplinary mearsure on one case does not set a precedence to
>>another similar case.
>>
>>As for those who administer discipline whilst they are secretly holding on
>>to their sins, Paul's warning is "Be not be decieved; God is not mocked;
>>for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to
>>his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption ..." 1 Cor 6: 7,8.
>>
>>I wish all christians could follow their Master's example to the letter.
>>
>>
>>Love your neighbour as yourself.
>>
>>----------
>>> From: Bangisi, Nikelo <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> Subject: RE: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>>> Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 5:26 PM
>>>
>>> From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>>>
>>> Gentlemen,
>>>
>>> May I join you before I go home.
>>>
>>> WHO GIVES THE CHURCH AUTHORITY?
>>>
>>> The authority given to the church, the wife of Jesus, is to be exercised
>>in
>>> the absence of the bride, Jesus Himself. Now when I am not home and my
>>> children are with my wife alone it will not be good for  her not
exercise
>>> her own judgement and discipline when the children deserve to be
>>> disciplined. The church exercises her own justified discretion to
>>discipline
>>> those who commit wrong.
>>>
>>> Maybe our problem is the question of proportionality which Boyce has
>>brought
>>> forward. The question is whether one should execute equal punishment to
>>one
>>> who has deliberately and knowingly committed a sin as against one who
>>> "slipped off" not knowing that he was doing wrong. One therefore must
>>check
>>> the word of the Lord. In Acts 17:25-30 we discover that the Lord will
>>> forgive those who did not know about Him. But those who know about Him
>>they
>>> will be punished according to the knowledge of truth they have acquired.
>>I
>>> remember a verse that says there is a sin that leads to death and one
>>that
>>> does not lead to eternal death. This must tell us there are sins that
are
>>> rated according to the weight and effect they have down here. The
>>discipline
>>> similarly should be proportional.
>>>
>>> The problem is the abuse of the manual by us, mortals, when we sit to
>>> investigate the facts and then we fail to apply our minds because of the
>>> prejudices against the "offender". Let me give this example: Three
>>persons
>>> are involved in a similar sin namely fornication. The first two, a male
>>and
>>> a female have this relationship and want to get married to each other.
>>> Unfortunately they fornicated and now the lady is pregnant. When they
>>> realise that this has occurred they run to lobola and prepare to get
>>married
>>> soon. However it is not possible to get married soon because the tummy
is
>>> fattening fast. So they must wait until the baby is delivered.
>>>
>>> The last person is a young Adventist lady who falls pregnant by a
>>> non-Adventist gentleman. There is no intention to get married.
>>>
>>> How should one judge the facts? Disfellowship the one and censure the
>>other
>>> two, I ask?
>>>
>>> Well, my sense of judgement tells me that I must be consistent with
facts
>>> and apply equal discipline. Whether I disfellowship or censure it must
be
>>> the same to both of them. The sin committed is fornication whether there
>>is
>>> intention to get married or not.
>>> It is precisely here where the problem is. Emotions rise and the temper
>>of
>>> the brethren goes up. Others say "no live these two alone and just
>>censure
>>> them because they belong to this church and they intend to marry very
>>soon".
>>> "But you should disfellowship this other one" No further reasons are
>>> normally given why this other one should be disfellowshipped. One can
>>only
>>> apply the rationale of the first case to determine the reasons of the
>>second
>>> one.
>>>
>>> I think consistency ought to be the buzz word when we look at different
>>> offences.
>>>
>>> In one church all the men could not keep the Sabbath because their
>>employers
>>> would not allow them to be home every Sabbath day. What the church did
in
>>> this instance was somehow interesting. One of the ladies was elected
>>church
>>> elder without the men being disciplined formally as it were. Later on
the
>>> husband resigned from work and stared to do a different work. In this
>>> instance the only discipline that was applied was to let them not to
>>occupy
>>> any position in church. Of course, this sounded unique, but the
principle
>>> was applied consistently to all men who were working on a Sabbath day.
>>>
>>> May I pause and state that in line with the wife-husband relationship it
>>is
>>> sin to defy properly constituted authority of the church, the wife
Jesus.
>>Of
>>> course, we are on earth but there are people who would act in such a way
>>as
>>> to deny the fact that there are elders in a particular church. If an
>>> outsider comes to my church and finds that the elders are not present on
>>> that day and then decide to exercise their authority by attempting to
let
>>> the church vote for his own proposal, he would have to be subjected to
>>> church discipline for stepping in the shoes that do not fit him. This is
>>> church authority to me.
>>>
>>> I submit, therefore, that Jesus gave the church full authority to
>>exercise
>>> judgement and punishment in His absence. I maintain that although we are
>>> sinners, we are saved sinners who must die daily and draw strength from
>>the
>>> One who provides us with power to think and exercise proper discretion
as
>>> derived from above. Where we err grace covers it all and becomes as if
we
>>> did not err at all.
>>>
>>>
>>> Come Lord Jesus, come!
>>>
>>> Happy Sabbath
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mashudu Ravhengani [mailto:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
>>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 4:21 PM
>>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>>> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>>
>>> Boyce,
>>> Are we supposed to tell the pastor/elder not to preach because he is
>>> unconsecrated? Church discipline is central to the gospel, as child
>>> discipline is central to child upbringing. Can God use Balak to bless
his
>>> people?
>>>  Are we to stop returning tithe because the tithe the conference is
>>corrupt?
>>> Are we to stop exercising church discipline because we are not perfect?
>>> Real question is when there is the problem with the vessels do we change
>>the
>>> rules or the vessel?
>>> It's like having a problem with the car and try to fix the road instead.
>>> I would like to submit that we need changing not God's system?
>>>
>>> Peace!
>>>
>>> Jeremiah
>>>
>>> >>> "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> 09/10 1:08 PM >>>
>>> From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
>>>
>>> Jerry,
>>>
>>> My boy is growing, he turned seven months two days ago.  I am grateful
to
>>> the Lord for him.  I gave him the name Kelello because my desire is for
>>him
>>> to have brains/wisdom.  Incidentally, he was born on the same day that
>>the
>>> world President of our church resigned, Elder Folkenberg.  This said to
>>me,
>>> my boy may be the future world president of our church, if heaven is not
>>> down then.   Just making you catch up on the latest family issues, hope
>>Mili
>>> is fine and your bundle of joy.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your constructive comments on the subject I proposed.  I like
>>> this because our mental faculties are at work.  Let me start by
>>addressing
>>> your comment about the flawed foundation in so far as sam relates to
>>using
>>> concepts 'discipline' and 'judgement' interchangeably.
>>>
>>> 'JUDGEMENT' versus 'DISCIPLINE'
>>>
>>> I believe that the two concepts of discipline and judgement are,
contrary
>>to
>>> your averment, interrelated.  Judgement is about determining guilt or
>>> innocence.  When the judge in a court of law passes judgement, two
things
>>> are possible, one the judge may find that accusations levelled against
>>you
>>> have no substance and therefore find you innocent.  Alternatively, the
>>judge
>>> may find that the accussations against you do have substance and
>>pronounce
>>> you guilty.  When God shall come he will determine first whether you are
>>a
>>> goat (guilty) or a sheep(saved into His righteousness).  Once this
>>process
>>> is completed, then punishment will follow.  Therefore, it is not a
>>foregone
>>> conclusion that wherever there is judgement, there is always a
>>punishment,
>>> there could also be a reward - come and enter into my joy you faithful
>>> servant.  We must distinguish between judgement and sentencing.  The two
>>are
>>> different.
>>>
>>> While judgement has two sides to it, discipline has only side---that is
>>> punitive.  Yes, I agree, discipline has a corrective angle, but it
>>remains
>>> punitive.  Discipline is almost, if not completely, sentencing, which
>>means
>>> you have gone past the stage of judging.  You effect discipline because
>>> there is an evaluation process that you have undertaken to determine
>>whether
>>> the person is guilty or innocent.  That evaluation process is nothing
but
>>> judgement.  Discipline therefore becomes a by-product of judgement.  In
>>your
>>> example of a child who either spills milk or come home at 1:00am, you as
>>a
>>> parent set a standard that says milk shall not be spilled in this house
>>nor
>>> shall you arrive after 7:00pm.  How do you know the child has
>>transgressed?
>>> When I see milk spilled down or when I have to open the door for him/her
>>at
>>> 1:00am.  So I start by recognising that my law has been violated and I
>>then
>>> determine what the appropriate discipline/corrective measure or sentence
>>> will be.  I conclude therefore that judgement is inevitable in any
>>> disciplinary process/measure.
>>>
>>> Coming to church, you see a little unmarried girl pushing a big tummy
and
>>> you know it is not because she ate too much but because some life is
>>> developing within her.  You don't just say, she must be censured or
>>> disfellowshipped.  The first step is to determine if this conduct is
>>> acceptable or not.  You go to the guide (Bible) that tells you that
>>> indulgence in sexual relations prior to being like me, is sinful.  You
>>have
>>> actually judged.
>>>
>>> You rightly make the point as I do in my document, that we will always
>>have
>>> a problem when unconsecrated men handly holy things---exactly my point.
>>Are
>>> we suited to handle this consecrated business?   The fact that we
>>exercise
>>> discipline in love, does not really give us a title to administer it,
for
>>it
>>> still remains discipline preceded by judgement.  You can handle a wrong
>>> thing correctly---it's like a student who gives a perfect answer to a
>>> question that is not asked.  Yes we may handle discipline the correct
way
>>as
>>> you suggest, but the question still remains, are we the ones to conduct
>>this
>>> business.
>>>
>>> I submit that our business is to point sinners (I guess ourselves) to
the
>>> cross of Calvary and encourage each other in this challenging journey.
>>> There is nothing wrong in calling sin by its right name and encouraging
>>the
>>> brother who is going astray to find his path again.
>>>
>>> Face to face with Christ my Saviour ---soon it shall be.
>>>
>>> Boyce
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>>> Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 11:01 PM
>>> Subject: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Boyce,
>>>
>>> Let me take this time to welcome you back to the family.  We missed
>>> you.
>>> Your analytic skills and your emphasis on details always impress me,
>>> as I read your postings it's like watching a brain surgeon remove a
>>> brain tumor.
>>> I appreciate the effort that you have taken to produce this paper on
>>> church discipline. The issues that you have address are issues that
>>> are affecting us all in this age and time.
>>>
>>> One thing that I like about this discussion list is that we are able
>>> to disagree in love. Having said that let me go straight to the
>>> point. I strongly disagree (sounds familiar) with your position.
>>> In many of our churches there is a misrepresentation of what church
>>> discipline is all about. You have taken this misrepresented view of
>>> church discipline and build your position on it. There is a major
>>> flaw on the foundation of your position.
>>>
>>> CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>>>
>>> Now that I have succeeded in getting everybody*s attention I can
>>> continue.
>>> The subject of your mail says *Disfellowship and Church Discipline*
>>> whereas the title of your says *THE JUDGES OF THE FLESH!*. The first
>>> line in your paper says, *The subject of discipline in God*s church
>>> is a rather sensitive*.* Throughout your document you maintain the
>>> theme of judgement.
>>>
>>> Here, lies the major flaw of your position, you seem to use the two
>>> words, discipline and judgement interchangeably. This is the flawed
>>> foundation. The majority of our members make the same mistake, so I
>>> am not surprised. The two actions, discipline and judgement are
>>> worlds apart from each other. It is unfortunate that the word like
>>> discipline which is positive in its meaning can be confused with the
>>> word judgment, which is negative in its intend and purposes. Since
>>> most of our church members do not understand church discipline and
>>> the critical role that it plays in the priesthood of believers, they
>>> despise it and see it as a punishment (the results of judgment).
>>>
>>> The dictionary also testifies that the two words do not have similar
>>> or related meanings.
>>> I must make this one thing clear, I do have a problem with church
>>> discipline, however my problem is not with the institution of church
>>> discipline, but with the way in which it is exercised in many of our
>>> churches, I will try to elaborate on this latter.
>>>
>>> What is judgement?
>>> From your professional background you can answer this question better
>>> than I can, so I will not attempt.
>>> Judgement results in punishment (if pardon is not an option) for the
>>> guilty party. Punishment is the rewards that the offender deserves.
>>> If you have killed somebody and the law says an eye for and eye, then
>>> you will be killed also.
>>>
>>> What is discipline?
>>> I see discipline as a corrective measure that is taken to restore or
>>> bring back the offender. Even more that discipline seeks to uplift
>>> the offender to a higher ground. Unlike judgement, disciple is not a
>>> reward of the persons action even though the level of discipline may
>>> vary (I will deal with this later). Discipline when correctly
>>> administered it is an act of love.
>>> If discipline becomes a punishment then something has gone horribly
>>> wrong.
>>> Can you imagine a father who shoots his son on the head because he
>>> forgot to polish his boots?
>>> Later I will use this parallel of child discipline and church
>>> discipline to illustrate my point.
>>>
>>> Does the church (flesh) judge its members?
>>> NO! The Bible says thou shall not judge; only God is the Judge.
>>> What does the church do? The church like a good parent exercises
>>> discipline. Spare the rod and spoil the child, there is a biblical
>>> version in Proverbs. Even God says that those that He loves he
>>> chastises. The role of the church discipline is the same as that of a
>>> good parent; it is to correct, to rebuke and to restore.
>>> I thank my parents for their stern discipline when I was growing up.
>>> If ever it was not for that discipline I won*t be writing this mail
>>> to you. I didn*t like it then, but now I appreciate it.
>>> No one ever disciplines a child by giving him/her extra cookies or
>>> asks the child to choose how to be disciplined nor expect the child
>>> will discipline him/herself.
>>> God has given us many, many object lesson, if only we can just stop
>>> and look/listen we will hear/see the gospel. Yes, church discipline
>>> is not sweet; of course it can*t be sweet and still be discipline.
>>> If the church decides to discipline you instead of trying to point
>>> the sins of others, you need to be grateful that the church/God cares
>>> so much that want to correct them. Blessed is the man/woman who
>>> gets/receives correction!
>>> When the church fails to exercise discipline it does not only fail
>>> God but also the one who broke God*s law.
>>> I know what I am talking about, there is someone who is very close to
>>> me whom the church because of her public status decided not to
>>> discipline her, and till today she is just hanging in limbo, and that
>>> hurts me.
>>> Now, let's look closely at this issue of discipline.
>>>
>>> Why selective discipline?
>>> Why discipline a girl who has committed fornication not the elder who
>>> is lusting after the deacon*s wife?
>>> I wonder if this question has any value if discipline is not view as
>>> judgment. Anyway let me continue.
>>> There are many of us who have secret sins, sins that we love so
>>> dearly, sins that the church board will never found out. How luck
>>> (blessed?) we are!
>>> Contrary to the above, I think it is a blessing when your sin comes
>>> into the light.
>>> Having said that we need to understand that to be in good and regular
>>> standing in a local church does not mean your name is in the books of
>>> heaven.
>>> Church discipline does not replace our direct accountability to God.
>>> Church discipline is more than just a way of maintaining a clean
>>> house, it is the gospel. The discipline is an extra fence created to
>>> help those who are weak, of course not everybody is so luck to be
>>> caught by this fence. As much as you give a medicine to those who
>>> look sickly, those who pretend that they are well or whom you don*t
>>> know that they are sick are left out.  So, in this case a
>>> "fornicator" is luck to be found out, bad luck to the "luster"! If we
>>> really know Jesus we will be happy when our sins comes to the light,
>>> psalmist says " Search me*."
>>>
>>> Why have varying degrees of discipline?
>>> Why Disfellowship brother M and only censure sister K
>>> If we go back to our example of child discipline, if a child spills
>>> milk he might get just a stern warning, but if he insists on coming
>>> back home at 1:00AM a different type of discipline might be
>>> exercised.
>>> So, is church discipline, sometimes it is necessary to send a strong
>>> message of rebuke.
>>>
>>> Jesus and the women caught in the act of adultery
>>> What need to understand is that the Jewish leaders were not in the
>>> business of administering church discipline, they were administering
>>> judgement. This is what Law of Moses specified. Jesus came to put an
>>> end to this system. He said let them grow together till the time of
>>> judgement, this was a very revolutionary message.
>>> The differences between discipline and judgement have already been
>>> dealt with above.
>>>
>>> My problem with church discipline
>>> As I have said before, my problem is not with the system of church
>>> discipline, but with the way it is administered in many of our
>>> churches. We will always have a problem when unconsecrated men handle
>>> holy things. I believe that if church discipline was exercised with
>>> love its effect will be more positive. Back to the example of the
>>> child discipline, we are told never to discipline children when we
>>> are angry, but exercise discipline in love.
>>> I believe that if we were to discipline people with tears in our eyes
>>> and prayer on our lips those people who disciplined will be won back
>>> to the Lord.
>>>
>>> People who fight when they are disciplined.
>>> People who have committed sins that the church feels that they
>>> require church discipline and yet they fight and refuse to be
>>> disciplined only testify that they desperately need church
>>> discipline. If one has truly repented the respond will be, 'whatever
>>> you say Lord I will do'. Spirit of calling lawyers and
>>> representatives and arguing can only come from the devil. It does not
>>> matter that those who are administering have their own sins, the Lord
>>> will take care of them.
>>> Our problem is that the members of our churches have a form of
>>> godliness, yet denying its power.
>>> We can't lower the standards to accommodate the members; the members
>>> must be lifted up to where Christ is.
>>>
>>> What's the fuss about disfellowship?
>>> To me, I see it as figurative action not really true to its meaning.
>>> People who are disfellowshed are still allowed to attend church every
>>> Sabbath, and after few months get a privilege of the second baptism.
>>> Where is the fuss? Some people just have big ego's that will stand on
>>> their way to heaven. All they are concerned about is for their names
>>> to be in the books on earth and not concerned about heaven.
>>>
>>> Research proves contrary to popular believe, church which have strong
>>> church discipline have high church growth than those with low
>>> standards. Why?
>>>
>>> The time is about 2:AM, I think I need to and sleep, see y'all later!
>>>
>>> Sound the trumpet, Jesus is coming soon!
>>>
>>> Jeremiah
>>>
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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:50:15 -0700
   From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
Subject: Re: Church discipline or church judgement

I must say, I like your balanced view of the issues debated herein.

I think I must concede and acknowledge that encouraging each other is actually discipline.  I agree that disciplining entails nurturing and reproving and that we are actually our brother's keeper in so far as we are expected to transform the tares into wheat.  Discipline as a form of nurture and building the church, I think this is exactly the approach we should be pursuing.  

Let me illustrate this point by asking what does censure or disfellowship achieve?  At the end of the disfellowship period, someone is rebaptised and they can fully participate in the life of the church.  But, what have we achieved by sending him to this forced holiday?  It may be argued that this is strong statement of disapproval of the unbecoming behaviour.  But is it really strong?    

Nurture, encourage in the interim, God will finally judge.

Cheers

Boyce
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
    To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
    Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 12:06 AM
    Subject: [sa-sda] Church discipline or church judgement
    
    
    Boyce
     
    It is time to fulfil the promise I made on Thursday.  I must say I enjoy the views expressed here on this topic, at the risk of repeating what has been said, I would like to make few observations.
     
    Your question, do we have the right as a church to administer discipline, or should we not let the person recuse himself/herself?  It looks like this is where Jerry picked up some resistance, that is to your usage and understanding of Judgement.   You have convincingly made your point, as to the interrelatedness  of discipline and judging, and I concur with you.   But Jerry is also correct in reminding us that we should not judge, so according to Jerry the church is not involved in judging but in disciplining, the two are not the same, as he puts it.  Since both positions can be justified scripturally, the best is to reconcile these seemingly contradictory positions.    The context, and not the dictionary, is usually the best place to look for a meaning of a word.   For us to know what judging is and means, let us allow the Bible to judge and may we respect its verdict.  I want to take the advice that Jerry gave me some time ago, that when I am in doubt I should follow the light, seriously.   
     
    1.   The Bible in support of not judging
    One cannot be in doubt that the Bible is very explicit when it comes to the issue of judging.  We are admonished not to judge.   Allow me to indicate this by looking at a few texts
        a.. Matthew. 7:1-5  "Do not judge, or you too will be judged...", here we are told that we cannot judge  because we have limited vision/understanding - "Why do you look at a a speck of sawdust in one's eye when you have s plank in yours , first removed and then you will see"   It is my opinion that the removing of the plank from my eye is a life long process, and as such, I will never be qualified to judge, until that day (more about that later) 
        b.. Romans 14:4,10 ,13 "why do you judge your brother, or why do you look down on your brother, for we will stand at God's judgement seat... let us stop passing judgement on one another"  Here judging is somehow, interpreted as "looking down on your brother", condemning is also the other meaning(vs.) 
        c.. James 4:11-12 "Brothers do not slander one another, anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him, speaks against the law and judges it..."  We see here that slandering and speaking against a brother is tantamount for judging him. 
        d.. 1 Corinthians 4:5 "Judge nothing before the appointed time, wait till the Lord comes, He will bring to light what is hidden and will expose motives of men's hearts."  Here we are admonished to wait, and allow Christ to do the judging, since He alone can read the motives of the heart
    Without boring you with all the details, I think the above is sufficient to at least show that the Bible is against judging.  So Jerry is correct, if we as a church are judging, we are in violation of the above.
     
    2.  Bible  in support of judging
    It can also be shown that the Bible does speak of judging as something that we should and can do.   The few texts may help,
        a.. 1 Cor. 5:12; 6:1-7 here we are told that we are to judge those who are inside(church) God will take care of those who are outside. (Thanks to Dan for this one)  The second passage encourages us to judge trivial cases, and to refrain from taking each other to courts of law, we are to do the judging ourselves.  This is premised on the fact that we will judge the world one day, so we might as well start now.  We are even encouraged to appoint Judges within the church to do this job.
    How do we reconcile the above positions, bearing in mind that the Bible cannot contradict itself.  Briefly for lack of space, the first view seems to have a ring of finality.   It deals with one's destiny, there is no opportunity to change.  It is more of condemnation than discipline and only God can do it, for He is the only one who has all the facts.  The second leans more on discipline and correcting, deciding who is wrong and who is right or whether the behaviour is acceptable or not.  The Bible says we can do the second one.  "You shall know them by their fruit, but this should not lead us to a point where we condemn them, for the Bible does not maintain that, once a bad fruit always a bad fruit.  The important thing is what we do when we recognise the fruit, do we despise the brother, look down on him, no with love we seek to win him back.
     
    Boyce maintains that what we can do is to encourage one another to look at the cross, but that is what discipline is supposed to do.   It is one way of encouraging each other.   Discipline does not need to be disfellowship  or censure to be effective, it can also mean talking to the brother who has a problem and praying with him, that is discipline.   The church can also discipline by calling those affected and talking to them showing them their wrongs.   Our preaching can also serve as discipline, I have witnessed people crying during preaching, for they realise the wrong they have done (not always).  The community of believers if it wants to live to its name, must find time to discipline to nurture and to reprove.   That is the judging we can do and are encouraged to do.  "Let them grow together"?  but it still our responsibility to help the tares become the wheat, in the meantime.
     
    How can discipline be done, when we ourselves are sinners?
    This to my opinion is what Boyce is opposed to.   This is understandable especially when one notes the harm at times we as the church do when it comes to disciplining.   But the Bible says we must, it is our task, we cannot fold hands and say the Lord will do it, for His will be final, we must let Him show us how to help each other in the interim.  "By their fruit we shall know them", is not as easy as it sounds.   take the case of pregnancy, for on the surface it seems easy.   What we usually do, is to look at the tummy and call the church board, disfellowship  or censure being the end result.  but is this fair,?  Below are some of the reasons a person might be pregnant/
        a.. Rape - how do you know whether one's   pregnancy is as a result of rape, even by a boy friend.   Do you discipline the victim, for lack of physical strength or moral strength?   In other cases people are known to have been made to sleep with their partners, after being drugged, how do you decide in that case? 
        b.. Ignorance - I know you might laugh at this, some can be pregnant simply because of ignorance.  In these days, when there is tendency to rush people for baptism, without proper teaching, this is possible.  Some may think,as other Christian do, that as long as you are planning to get married there is no problem.  Here the person to be discipline is the church that failed in its responsibility to teach. 
        c.. Momentary weakness - for lack of  a better word.  It is not always the case that pregnancy is the sign of rebellion.   It could be one moment of carelessness, which the person regrets for the rest of her life.  But to treat this person as if she is a heathen is not right. 
        d.. Act of rebellion - there will always be those who plan to be pregnant for various reasons, who go to the extent of repeating the same sin again and again.   What do we do in this case?
    If we must help , we must know what the causes of the problem are, otherwise we will be irrelevant and cruel at times.   To do this we need God's guidance, we need each other, to make sure that we are not prejudiced against the person, try to be as objective as possible, we must talk to the person, ask him to give his side of the story.  This needs time if we must do it right.   The tendency to rush these matters has often led to more wounds being inflicted on the victims.   Some may want to recuse themselves, as Boyce suggests, but this also must be approved by the church, for one can do it out of ignorance.
     
    In short, Boyce to me it seems as if as a church we have the right and the responsibility to discipline as a form of nurture and building of the church.  Yes there are problems around this, If  I had time I could give you a list of them.
     
    "So make it your goal to please him,.... for we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each may receive what is due him, for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" 2 Cor. 5:9-10.
     
    He must come to judge the world.
     
    Jongimpi
     
     
     
    
     
     
    
    First of all, here we have a war of terminology, and each seems to think he has the right definition while the other is wrong.  I believe that both Jerry while on the surface appear to be opposed, are essentially correct, their understanding seems ton be the two sides of the same coin.   Jerry maintains that we should not judge, he is correct and that is biblical as I will show.   Boyce articulates his position convincingly,that we are to judge and we do judge, he is also correct and his position is also biblical.  Maybe Jerry's attempt to separate discipline from judging was a little one sided, as shown by Boyce.
     
    I want to attempt to show that both positions are biblical and that our task is to rather explain what we mean by the terms we use.   In other words, we must examine the  contexts where the term judge appears and seek to understand its meaning in that context, the dictionary is a limited method of finding a meaning to any term, I think the context  where the term appears and how it is used by the writer is the best way of arriving at the meaning of the term



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:49:03 +0200
   From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Church discipline or church judgement



The issue of disfellowship  and censure is a sensitive one and highly controversial.   Technically speaking can we disfellowship a person?, not whether we have the right or not, but can we disfellowship someone effectively.  That a person's name has been struck off the church records may not mean that this is the case in heaven.   Similarly, a person may be in good and regularly standing and not be known in heaven, as Jerry pointed out.   I think the case we often cite in 1Cor. 5 needs more study and reflection.   To me it seems as if the church was refusing to recognize that the brother has disfellowshipped himself by his own actions.   I think your point on recusal makes sense, except that it should also be done within the community and be approved by it.

On the matter of censure, I always think about a player who has been injured while playing in the game.  He is taken out, not by force, but after thoroughly examining his injury, and also finding out from him how he feels.   He is taken out in order to recuperate, failure to do so may result in further injury to him and also may affect the whole team.   To allow a person to continue occupying a high profile may actually do more damage to him and the church.  But I think the brother should be involved also in the process, that is where recusal makes sense.

Peace

Jongimpi
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
    To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
    Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 11:49 AM
    Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Church discipline or church judgement
    
    
    I must say, I like your balanced view of the issues debated herein.
    
    I think I must concede and acknowledge that encouraging each other is actually discipline.  I agree that disciplining entails nurturing and reproving and that we are actually our brother's keeper in so far as we are expected to transform the tares into wheat.  Discipline as a form of nurture and building the church, I think this is exactly the approach we should be pursuing.  
     
    Let me illustrate this point by asking what does censure or disfellowship achieve?  At the end of the disfellowship period, someone is rebaptised and they can fully participate in the life of the church.  But, what have we achieved by sending him to this forced holiday?  It may be argued that this is strong statement of disapproval of the unbecoming behaviour.  But is it really strong?    
    
    Nurture, encourage in the interim, God will finally judge.
     
    Cheers
     
    Boyce
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
        To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
        Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 12:06 AM
        Subject: [sa-sda] Church discipline or church judgement
        
        
        Boyce
         
        It is time to fulfil the promise I made on Thursday.  I must say I enjoy the views expressed here on this topic, at the risk of repeating what has been said, I would like to make few observations.
         
        Your question, do we have the right as a church to administer discipline, or should we not let the person recuse himself/herself?  It looks like this is where Jerry picked up some resistance, that is to your usage and understanding of Judgement.   You have convincingly made your point, as to the interrelatedness  of discipline and judging, and I concur with you.   But Jerry is also correct in reminding us that we should not judge, so according to Jerry the church is not involved in judging but in disciplining, the two are not the same, as he puts it.  Since both positions can be justified scripturally, the best is to reconcile these seemingly contradictory positions.    The context, and not the dictionary, is usually the best place to look for a meaning of a word.   For us to know what judging is and means, let us allow the Bible to judge and may we respect its verdict.  I want to take the advice that Jerry gave me some time ago, that when I am in doubt I should follow the light, seriously.   
         
        1.   The Bible in support of not judging
        One cannot be in doubt that the Bible is very explicit when it comes to the issue of judging.  We are admonished not to judge.   Allow me to indicate this by looking at a few texts
            a.. Matthew. 7:1-5  "Do not judge, or you too will be judged...", here we are told that we cannot judge  because we have limited vision/understanding - "Why do you look at a a speck of sawdust in one's eye when you have s plank in yours , first removed and then you will see"   It is my opinion that the removing of the plank from my eye is a life long process, and as such, I will never be qualified to judge, until that day (more about that later) 
            b.. Romans 14:4,10 ,13 "why do you judge your brother, or why do you look down on your brother, for we will stand at God's judgement seat... let us stop passing judgement on one another"  Here judging is somehow, interpreted as "looking down on your brother", condemning is also the other meaning(vs.) 
            c.. James 4:11-12 "Brothers do not slander one another, anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him, speaks against the law and judges it..."  We see here that slandering and speaking against a brother is tantamount for judging him. 
            d.. 1 Corinthians 4:5 "Judge nothing before the appointed time, wait till the Lord comes, He will bring to light what is hidden and will expose motives of men's hearts."  Here we are admonished to wait, and allow Christ to do the judging, since He alone can read the motives of the heart
        Without boring you with all the details, I think the above is sufficient to at least show that the Bible is against judging.  So Jerry is correct, if we as a church are judging, we are in violation of the above.
         
        2.  Bible  in support of judging
        It can also be shown that the Bible does speak of judging as something that we should and can do.   The few texts may help,
            a.. 1 Cor. 5:12; 6:1-7 here we are told that we are to judge those who are inside(church) God will take care of those who are outside. (Thanks to Dan for this one)  The second passage encourages us to judge trivial cases, and to refrain from taking each other to courts of law, we are to do the judging ourselves.  This is premised on the fact that we will judge the world one day, so we might as well start now.  We are even encouraged to appoint Judges within the church to do this job.
        How do we reconcile the above positions, bearing in mind that the Bible cannot contradict itself.  Briefly for lack of space, the first view seems to have a ring of finality.   It deals with one's destiny, there is no opportunity to change.  It is more of condemnation than discipline and only God can do it, for He is the only one who has all the facts.  The second leans more on discipline and correcting, deciding who is wrong and who is right or whether the behaviour is acceptable or not.  The Bible says we can do the second one.  "You shall know them by their fruit, but this should not lead us to a point where we condemn them, for the Bible does not maintain that, once a bad fruit always a bad fruit.  The important thing is what we do when we recognise the fruit, do we despise the brother, look down on him, no with love we seek to win him back.
         
        Boyce maintains that what we can do is to encourage one another to look at the cross, but that is what discipline is supposed to do.   It is one way of encouraging each other.   Discipline does not need to be disfellowship  or censure to be effective, it can also mean talking to the brother who has a problem and praying with him, that is discipline.   The church can also discipline by calling those affected and talking to them showing them their wrongs.   Our preaching can also serve as discipline, I have witnessed people crying during preaching, for they realise the wrong they have done (not always).  The community of believers if it wants to live to its name, must find time to discipline to nurture and to reprove.   That is the judging we can do and are encouraged to do.  "Let them grow together"?  but it still our responsibility to help the tares become the wheat, in the meantime.
         
        How can discipline be done, when we ourselves are sinners?
        This to my opinion is what Boyce is opposed to.   This is understandable especially when one notes the harm at times we as the church do when it comes to disciplining.   But the Bible says we must, it is our task, we cannot fold hands and say the Lord will do it, for His will be final, we must let Him show us how to help each other in the interim.  "By their fruit we shall know them", is not as easy as it sounds.   take the case of pregnancy, for on the surface it seems easy.   What we usually do, is to look at the tummy and call the church board, disfellowship  or censure being the end result.  but is this fair,?  Below are some of the reasons a person might be pregnant/
            a.. Rape - how do you know whether one's   pregnancy is as a result of rape, even by a boy friend.   Do you discipline the victim, for lack of physical strength or moral strength?   In other cases people are known to have been made to sleep with their partners, after being drugged, how do you decide in that case? 
            b.. Ignorance - I know you might laugh at this, some can be pregnant simply because of ignorance.  In these days, when there is tendency to rush people for baptism, without proper teaching, this is possible.  Some may think,as other Christian do, that as long as you are planning to get married there is no problem.  Here the person to be discipline is the church that failed in its responsibility to teach. 
            c.. Momentary weakness - for lack of  a better word.  It is not always the case that pregnancy is the sign of rebellion.   It could be one moment of carelessness, which the person regrets for the rest of her life.  But to treat this person as if she is a heathen is not right. 
            d.. Act of rebellion - there will always be those who plan to be pregnant for various reasons, who go to the extent of repeating the same sin again and again.   What do we do in this case?
        If we must help , we must know what the causes of the problem are, otherwise we will be irrelevant and cruel at times.   To do this we need God's guidance, we need each other, to make sure that we are not prejudiced against the person, try to be as objective as possible, we must talk to the person, ask him to give his side of the story.  This needs time if we must do it right.   The tendency to rush these matters has often led to more wounds being inflicted on the victims.   Some may want to recuse themselves, as Boyce suggests, but this also must be approved by the church, for one can do it out of ignorance.
         
        In short, Boyce to me it seems as if as a church we have the right and the responsibility to discipline as a form of nurture and building of the church.  Yes there are problems around this, If  I had time I could give you a list of them.
         
        "So make it your goal to please him,.... for we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each may receive what is due him, for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" 2 Cor. 5:9-10.
         
        He must come to judge the world.
         
        Jongimpi
         
         
         
        
         
         
        
        First of all, here we have a war of terminology, and each seems to think he has the right definition while the other is wrong.  I believe that both Jerry while on the surface appear to be opposed, are essentially correct, their understanding seems ton be the two sides of the same coin.   Jerry maintains that we should not judge, he is correct and that is biblical as I will show.   Boyce articulates his position convincingly,that we are to judge and we do judge, he is also correct and his position is also biblical.  Maybe Jerry's attempt to separate discipline from judging was a little one sided, as shown by Boyce.
         
        I want to attempt to show that both positions are biblical and that our task is to rather explain what we mean by the terms we use.   In other words, we must examine the  contexts where the term judge appears and seek to understand its meaning in that context, the dictionary is a limited method of finding a meaning to any term, I think the context  where the term appears and how it is used by the writer is the best way of arriving at the meaning of the term



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Church discipline or church judgement

Boyce,

I hope you had a good weekend. I am glad to hear that your son is
doing well. My daughter is also doing very well, may be one of this
days we must start talking about lobola and those kinds of
arrangement. Here is a link to my daughters latest pictures: 
http://www.tagnet.org/masabatha/babygundo.html

Boyce I would like to apologize to you for I feel like my initial
response to you lacked brotherly love. I feel that it encouraged
debate instead of a healthy Christian exchange. I am sorry.

Back to the discussion. Thank you for your enlightenment on the
definition of judgement. And I will also like to thank Pastor Papu,
Nick, Daniel and Tselani for their articulate presentation. I am
always grateful to God for this forum; it is very rare to find such
great minds in one place.

Let me try once more: discipline Vs judgement, Jongimpi did a good in
expressing what is also my view of judgement. Let me give another
illustration. As a small boy growing up in Venda, every evening we
would sit around the fire. My mother always told us about the danger
of playing with the fire (That's preaching the gospel). Somehow the
fire fascinated me; I would try to reach out to the grab one of the
hot coals. At this stage mother would warn me (discipline) and if I
continue she would exercise a little more serious discipline.
Throughout all this she never stopped telling us about the danger of
playing with the fire.
One day when my mother was not there, I decided to reach out and grab
on of this hot coal, and you can guess what happened, that's the
wages of disobedience.
God has given the church the authority to warn the people about the
fire.
The isolation associated with the church discipline is supposed to
the warn us of the eternal isolation that will come to pass on the
judgement day.
Even at school, there are monthly, quarterly and midyear exams before
the final exam. However the monthly exam is not the final exam.

Let's continue to search the scriptures.

He is coming to judge!

Jeremiah



--- "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> wrote:
> I must say, I like your balanced view of the issues debated herein.
> 
> I think I must concede and acknowledge that encouraging each other
> is actually discipline.  I agree that disciplining entails
> nurturing and reproving and that we are actually our brother's
> keeper in so far as we are expected to transform the tares into
> wheat.  Discipline as a form of nurture and building the church, I
> think this is exactly the approach we should be pursuing.  
> 
> Let me illustrate this point by asking what does censure or
> disfellowship achieve?  At the end of the disfellowship period,
> someone is rebaptised and they can fully participate in the life of
> the church.  But, what have we achieved by sending him to this
> forced holiday?  It may be argued that this is strong statement of
> disapproval of the unbecoming behaviour.  But is it really strong? 
>   
> 
> Nurture, encourage in the interim, God will finally judge.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Boyce
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>     To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>     Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 12:06 AM
>     Subject: [sa-sda] Church discipline or church judgement
>     
>     
>     Boyce
>      
>     It is time to fulfil the promise I made on Thursday.  I must
> say I enjoy the views expressed here on this topic, at the risk of
> repeating what has been said, I would like to make few
> observations.
>      
>     Your question, do we have the right as a church to administer
> discipline, or should we not let the person recuse himself/herself?
>  It looks like this is where Jerry picked up some resistance, that
> is to your usage and understanding of Judgement.   You have
> convincingly made your point, as to the interrelatedness  of
> discipline and judging, and I concur with you.   But Jerry is also
> correct in reminding us that we should not judge, so according to
> Jerry the church is not involved in judging but in disciplining,
> the two are not the same, as he puts it.  Since both positions can
> be justified scripturally, the best is to reconcile these seemingly
> contradictory positions.    The context, and not the dictionary, is
> usually the best place to look for a meaning of a word.   For us to
> know what judging is and means, let us allow the Bible to judge and
> may we respect its verdict.  I want to take the advice that Jerry
> gave me some time ago, that when I am in doubt I should follow the
> light, seriously.   
>      
>     1.   The Bible in support of not judging
>     One cannot be in doubt that the Bible is very explicit when it
> comes to the issue of judging.  We are admonished not to judge.  
> Allow me to indicate this by looking at a few texts
>         a.. Matthew. 7:1-5  "Do not judge, or you too will be
> judged...", here we are told that we cannot judge  because we have
> limited vision/understanding - "Why do you look at a a speck of
> sawdust in one's eye when you have s plank in yours , first removed
> and then you will see"   It is my opinion that the removing of the
> plank from my eye is a life long process, and as such, I will never
> be qualified to judge, until that day (more about that later) 
>         b.. Romans 14:4,10 ,13 "why do you judge your brother, or
> why do you look down on your brother, for we will stand at God's
> judgement seat... let us stop passing judgement on one another" 
> Here judging is somehow, interpreted as "looking down on your
> brother", condemning is also the other meaning(vs.) 
>         c.. James 4:11-12 "Brothers do not slander one another,
> anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him, speaks against
> the law and judges it..."  We see here that slandering and speaking
> against a brother is tantamount for judging him. 
>         d.. 1 Corinthians 4:5 "Judge nothing before the appointed
> time, wait till the Lord comes, He will bring to light what is
> hidden and will expose motives of men's hearts."  Here we are
> admonished to wait, and allow Christ to do the judging, since He
> alone can read the motives of the heart
>     Without boring you with all the details, I think the above is
> sufficient to at least show that the Bible is against judging.  So
> Jerry is correct, if we as a church are judging, we are in
> violation of the above.
>      
>     2.  Bible  in support of judging
>     It can also be shown that the Bible does speak of judging as
> something that we should and can do.   The few texts may help,
>         a.. 1 Cor. 5:12; 6:1-7 here we are told that we are to
> judge those who are inside(church) God will take care of those who
> are outside. (Thanks to Dan for this one)  The second passage
> encourages us to judge trivial cases, and to refrain from taking
> each other to courts of law, we are to do the judging ourselves. 
> This is premised on the fact that we will judge the world one day,
> so we might as well start now.  We are even encouraged to appoint
> Judges within the church to do this job.
>     How do we reconcile the above positions, bearing in mind that
> the Bible cannot contradict itself.  Briefly for lack of space, the
> first view seems to have a ring of finality.   It deals with one's
> destiny, there is no opportunity to change.  It is more of
> condemnation than discipline and only God can do it, for He is the
> only one who has all the facts.  The second leans more on
> discipline and correcting, deciding who is wrong and who is right
> or whether the behaviour is acceptable or not.  The Bible says we
> can do the second one.  "You shall know them by their fruit, but
> this should not lead us to a point where we condemn them, for the
> Bible does not maintain that, once a bad fruit always a bad fruit. 
> The important thing is what we do when we recognise the fruit, do
> we despise the brother, look down on him, no with love we seek to
> win him back.
>      
>     Boyce maintains that what we can do is to encourage one another
> to look at the cross, but that is what discipline is supposed to
> do.   It is one way of encouraging each other.   Discipline does
> not need to be disfellowship  or censure to be effective, it can
> also mean talking to the brother who has a problem and praying with
> him, that is discipline.   The church can also discipline by
> calling those affected and talking to them showing them their
> wrongs.   Our preaching can also serve as discipline, I have
> witnessed people crying during preaching, for they realise the
> wrong they have done (not always).  The community of believers if
> it wants to live to its name, must find time to discipline to
> nurture and to reprove.   That is the judging we can do and are
> encouraged to do.  "Let them grow together"?  but it still our
> responsibility to help the tares become the wheat, in the meantime.
>      
>     How can discipline be done, when we ourselves are sinners?
>     This to my opinion is what Boyce is opposed to.   This is
> understandable especially when one notes the harm at times we as
> the church do when it comes to disciplining.   But the Bible says
> we must, it is our task, we cannot fold hands and say the Lord will
> do it, for His will be final, we must let Him show us how to help
> each other in the interim.  "By their fruit we shall know them", is
> not as easy as it sounds.   take the case of pregnancy, for on the
> surface it seems easy.   What we usually do, is to look at the
> tummy and call the church board, disfellowship  or censure being
> the end result.  but is this fair,?  Below are some of the reasons
> a person might be pregnant/
>         a.. Rape - how do you know whether one's   pregnancy is as
> a result of rape, even by a boy friend.   Do you discipline the
> victim, for lack of physical strength or moral strength?   In other
> cases people are known to have been made to sleep with their
> partners, after being drugged, how do you decide in that case? 
>         b.. Ignorance - I know you might laugh at this, some can be
> pregnant simply because of ignorance.  In these days, when there is
> tendency to rush people for baptism, without proper teaching, this
> is possible.  Some may think,as other Christian do, that as long as
> you are planning to get married there is no problem.  Here the
> person to be discipline is the church that failed in its
> responsibility to teach. 
>         c.. Momentary weakness - for lack of  a better word.  It is
> not always the case that pregnancy is the sign of rebellion.   It
> could be one moment of carelessness, which the person regrets for
> the rest of her life.  But to treat this person as if she is a
> heathen is not right. 
>         d.. Act of rebellion - there will always be those who plan
> to be pregnant for various reasons, who go to the extent of
> repeating the same sin again and again.   What do we do in this
> case?
>     If we must help , we must know what the causes of the problem
> are, otherwise we will be irrelevant and cruel at times.   To do
> this we need God's guidance, we need each other, to make sure that
> we are not prejudiced against the person, try to be as objective as
> possible, we must talk to the person, ask him to give his side of
> the story.  This needs time if we must do it right.   The tendency
> to rush these matters has often led to more wounds being inflicted
> on the victims.   Some may want to recuse themselves, as Boyce
> suggests, but this also must be approved by the church, for one can
> do it out of ignorance.
>      
>     In short, Boyce to me it seems as if as a church we have the
> right and the responsibility to discipline as a form of nurture and
> building of the church.  Yes there are problems around this, If  I
> had time I could give you a list of them.
>      
>     "So make it your goal to please him,.... for we must all appear
> before the judgement seat of Christ, that each may receive what is
> due him, for the things done while in the body, whether good or
> bad" 2 Cor. 5:9-10.
>      
>     He must come to judge the world.
>      
>     Jongimpi
>      
>      
>      
>     
>      
>      
>     
>     First of all, here we have a war of terminology, and each seems
> to think he has the right definition while the other is wrong.  I
> believe that both Jerry while on the surface appear to be opposed,
> are essentially correct, their understanding seems ton be the two
> sides of the same coin.   Jerry maintains that we should not judge,
> he is correct and that is biblical as I will show.   Boyce
> articulates his position convincingly,that we are to judge and we
> do judge, he is also correct and his position is also biblical. 
> Maybe Jerry's attempt to separate discipline from judging was a
> little one sided, as shown by Boyce.
>      
>     I want to attempt to show that both positions are biblical and
> that our task is to rather explain what we mean by the terms we
> use. 
=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:34:41 PDT
   From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Church discipline or church judgement

Jeremiah,

Your daughters are indeed beatiful and I will encourage all those with young 
sons to seriously begin Lobola negotiations with you.

I am cautious not to spoil this discussion that has brought to light 
interesting aspect of church discipline, judgement etc. I have been deeply 
touched by Boyce, Jongimpi and yourself on this issue.

I believe that the church at large and particularly young people are 
ignorant of these issues, in some cases it is sheer carelesness on the part 
of us leaders whilst on the other hand one experience a great apathy toward 
the word of God and discussion that lifts the spirit and the intellect 
towards religious issues and Biblical Principles in particuar.

I therefore issue a challenge out there for guys who are currently not 
involved in teaching and mentoring young people in the church to begin doing 
so. We are partly responsible because of our knowledge and exposure to feed 
the sheep and guide the flock.

I would love your response on this general opinion.


Lft Him up.



Vusi Kaunda


>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Church discipline or church judgement
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
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>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
>Boyce,
>
>I hope you had a good weekend. I am glad to hear that your son is
>doing well. My daughter is also doing very well, may be one of this
>days we must start talking about lobola and those kinds of
>arrangement. Here is a link to my daughters latest pictures:
>http://www.tagnet.org/masabatha/babygundo.html
>
>Boyce I would like to apologize to you for I feel like my initial
>response to you lacked brotherly love. I feel that it encouraged
>debate instead of a healthy Christian exchange. I am sorry.
>
>Back to the discussion. Thank you for your enlightenment on the
>definition of judgement. And I will also like to thank Pastor Papu,
>Nick, Daniel and Tselani for their articulate presentation. I am
>always grateful to God for this forum; it is very rare to find such
>great minds in one place.
>
>Let me try once more: discipline Vs judgement, Jongimpi did a good in
>expressing what is also my view of judgement. Let me give another
>illustration. As a small boy growing up in Venda, every evening we
>would sit around the fire. My mother always told us about the danger
>of playing with the fire (That's preaching the gospel). Somehow the
>fire fascinated me; I would try to reach out to the grab one of the
>hot coals. At this stage mother would warn me (discipline) and if I
>continue she would exercise a little more serious discipline.
>Throughout all this she never stopped telling us about the danger of
>playing with the fire.
>One day when my mother was not there, I decided to reach out and grab
>on of this hot coal, and you can guess what happened, that's the
>wages of disobedience.
>God has given the church the authority to warn the people about the
>fire.
>The isolation associated with the church discipline is supposed to
>the warn us of the eternal isolation that will come to pass on the
>judgement day.
>Even at school, there are monthly, quarterly and midyear exams before
>the final exam. However the monthly exam is not the final exam.
>
>Let's continue to search the scriptures.
>
>He is coming to judge!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>
>
>--- "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> wrote:
> > I must say, I like your balanced view of the issues debated herein.
> >
> > I think I must concede and acknowledge that encouraging each other
> > is actually discipline.  I agree that disciplining entails
> > nurturing and reproving and that we are actually our brother's
> > keeper in so far as we are expected to transform the tares into
> > wheat.  Discipline as a form of nurture and building the church, I
> > think this is exactly the approach we should be pursuing.
> >
> > Let me illustrate this point by asking what does censure or
> > disfellowship achieve?  At the end of the disfellowship period,
> > someone is rebaptised and they can fully participate in the life of
> > the church.  But, what have we achieved by sending him to this
> > forced holiday?  It may be argued that this is strong statement of
> > disapproval of the unbecoming behaviour.  But is it really strong?
> >
> >
> > Nurture, encourage in the interim, God will finally judge.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Boyce
> >     -----Original Message-----
> >     From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> >     To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> >     Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 12:06 AM
> >     Subject: [sa-sda] Church discipline or church judgement
> >
> >
> >     Boyce
> >
> >     It is time to fulfil the promise I made on Thursday.  I must
> > say I enjoy the views expressed here on this topic, at the risk of
> > repeating what has been said, I would like to make few
> > observations.
> >
> >     Your question, do we have the right as a church to administer
> > discipline, or should we not let the person recuse himself/herself?
> >  It looks like this is where Jerry picked up some resistance, that
> > is to your usage and understanding of Judgement.   You have
> > convincingly made your point, as to the interrelatedness  of
> > discipline and judging, and I concur with you.   But Jerry is also
> > correct in reminding us that we should not judge, so according to
> > Jerry the church is not involved in judging but in disciplining,
> > the two are not the same, as he puts it.  Since both positions can
> > be justified scripturally, the best is to reconcile these seemingly
> > contradictory positions.    The context, and not the dictionary, is
> > usually the best place to look for a meaning of a word.   For us to
> > know what judging is and means, let us allow the Bible to judge and
> > may we respect its verdict.  I want to take the advice that Jerry
> > gave me some time ago, that when I am in doubt I should follow the
> > light, seriously.
> >
> >     1.   The Bible in support of not judging
> >     One cannot be in doubt that the Bible is very explicit when it
> > comes to the issue of judging.  We are admonished not to judge.
> > Allow me to indicate this by looking at a few texts
> >         a.. Matthew. 7:1-5  "Do not judge, or you too will be
> > judged...", here we are told that we cannot judge  because we have
> > limited vision/understanding - "Why do you look at a a speck of
> > sawdust in one's eye when you have s plank in yours , first removed
> > and then you will see"   It is my opinion that the removing of the
> > plank from my eye is a life long process, and as such, I will never
> > be qualified to judge, until that day (more about that later)
> >         b.. Romans 14:4,10 ,13 "why do you judge your brother, or
> > why do you look down on your brother, for we will stand at God's
> > judgement seat... let us stop passing judgement on one another"
> > Here judging is somehow, interpreted as "looking down on your
> > brother", condemning is also the other meaning(vs.)
> >         c.. James 4:11-12 "Brothers do not slander one another,
> > anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him, speaks against
> > the law and judges it..."  We see here that slandering and speaking
> > against a brother is tantamount for judging him.
> >         d.. 1 Corinthians 4:5 "Judge nothing before the appointed
> > time, wait till the Lord comes, He will bring to light what is
> > hidden and will expose motives of men's hearts."  Here we are
> > admonished to wait, and allow Christ to do the judging, since He
> > alone can read the motives of the heart
> >     Without boring you with all the details, I think the above is
> > sufficient to at least show that the Bible is against judging.  So
> > Jerry is correct, if we as a church are judging, we are in
> > violation of the above.
> >
> >     2.  Bible  in support of judging
> >     It can also be shown that the Bible does speak of judging as
> > something that we should and can do.   The few texts may help,
> >         a.. 1 Cor. 5:12; 6:1-7 here we are told that we are to
> > judge those who are inside(church) God will take care of those who
> > are outside. (Thanks to Dan for this one)  The second passage
> > encourages us to judge trivial cases, and to refrain from taking
> > each other to courts of law, we are to do the judging ourselves.
> > This is premised on the fact that we will judge the world one day,
> > so we might as well start now.  We are even encouraged to appoint
> > Judges within the church to do this job.
> >     How do we reconcile the above positions, bearing in mind that
> > the Bible cannot contradict itself.  Briefly for lack of space, the
> > first view seems to have a ring of finality.   It deals with one's
> > destiny, there is no opportunity to change.  It is more of
> > condemnation than discipline and only God can do it, for He is the
> > only one who has all the facts.  The second leans more on
> > discipline and correcting, deciding who is wrong and who is right
> > or whether the behaviour is acceptable or not.  The Bible says we
> > can do the second one.  "You shall know them by their fruit, but
> > this should not lead us to a point where we condemn them, for the
> > Bible does not maintain that, once a bad fruit always a bad fruit.
> > The important thing is what we do when we recognise the fruit, do
> > we despise the brother, look down on him, no with love we seek to
> > win him back.
> >
> >     Boyce maintains that what we can do is to encourage one another
> > to look at the cross, but that is what discipline is supposed to
> > do.   It is one way of encouraging each other.   Discipline does
> > not need to be disfellowship  or censure to be effective, it can
> > also mean talking to the brother who has a problem and praying with
> > him, that is discipline.   The church can also discipline by
> > calling those affected and talking to them showing them their
> > wrongs.   Our preaching can also serve as discipline, I have
> > witnessed people crying during preaching, for they realise the
> > wrong they have done (not always).  The community of believers if
> > it wants to live to its name, must find time to discipline to
> > nurture and to reprove.   That is the judging we can do and are
> > encouraged to do.  "Let them grow together"?  but it still our
> > responsibility to help the tares become the wheat, in the meantime.
> >
> >     How can discipline be done, when we ourselves are sinners?
> >     This to my opinion is what Boyce is opposed to.   This is
> > understandable especially when one notes the harm at times we as
> > the church do when it comes to disciplining.   But the Bible says
> > we must, it is our task, we cannot fold hands and say the Lord will
> > do it, for His will be final, we must let Him show us how to help
> > each other in the interim.  "By their fruit we shall know them", is
> > not as easy as it sounds.   take the case of pregnancy, for on the
> > surface it seems easy.   What we usually do, is to look at the
> > tummy and call the church board, disfellowship  or censure being
> > the end result.  but is this fair,?  Below are some of the reasons
> > a person might be pregnant/
> >         a.. Rape - how do you know whether one's   pregnancy is as
> > a result of rape, even by a boy friend.   Do you discipline the
> > victim, for lack of physical strength or moral strength?   In other
> > cases people are known to have been made to sleep with their
> > partners, after being drugged, how do you decide in that case?
> >         b.. Ignorance - I know you might laugh at this, some can be
> > pregnant simply because of ignorance.  In these days, when there is
> > tendency to rush people for baptism, without proper teaching, this
> > is possible.  Some may think,as other Christian do, that as long as
> > you are planning to get married there is no problem.  Here the
> > person to be discipline is the church that failed in its
> > responsibility to teach.
> >         c.. Momentary weakness - for lack of  a better word.  It is
> > not always the case that pregnancy is the sign of rebellion.   It
> > could be one moment of carelessness, which the person regrets for
> > the rest of her life.  But to treat this person as if she is a
> > heathen is not right.
> >         d.. Act of rebellion - there will always be those who plan
> > to be pregnant for various reasons, who go to the extent of
> > repeating the same sin again and again.   What do we do in this
> > case?
> >     If we must help , we must know what the causes of the problem
> > are, otherwise we will be irrelevant and cruel at times.   To do
> > this we need God's guidance, we need each other, to make sure that
> > we are not prejudiced against the person, try to be as objective as
> > possible, we must talk to the person, ask him to give his side of
> > the story.  This needs time if we must do it right.   The tendency
> > to rush these matters has often led to more wounds being inflicted
> > on the victims.   Some may want to recuse themselves, as Boyce
> > suggests, but this also must be approved by the church, for one can
> > do it out of ignorance.
> >
> >     In short, Boyce to me it seems as if as a church we have the
> > right and the responsibility to discipline as a form of nurture and
> > building of the church.  Yes there are problems around this, If  I
> > had time I could give you a list of them.
> >
> >     "So make it your goal to please him,.... for we must all appear
> > before the judgement seat of Christ, that each may receive what is
> > due him, for the things done while in the body, whether good or
> > bad" 2 Cor. 5:9-10.
> >
> >     He must come to judge the world.
> >
> >     Jongimpi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     First of all, here we have a war of terminology, and each seems
> > to think he has the right definition while the other is wrong.  I
> > believe that both Jerry while on the surface appear to be opposed,
> > are essentially correct, their understanding seems ton be the two
> > sides of the same coin.   Jerry maintains that we should not judge,
> > he is correct and that is biblical as I will show.   Boyce
> > articulates his position convincingly,that we are to judge and we
> > do judge, he is also correct and his position is also biblical.
> > Maybe Jerry's attempt to separate discipline from judging was a
> > little one sided, as shown by Boyce.
> >
> >     I want to attempt to show that both positions are biblical and
> > that our task is to rather explain what we mean by the terms we
> > use.
>=== message truncated ===
>
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