|
About ONElist Partner with Us Jobs @ ONElist Advertising |
Spam Policy Privacy Policy Terms of Service |
My Profile Contact Us Feedback ONElist T-Shirts |
There are 2 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xxx.xxx
2. Church discipline or church judgement
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:24:15 +0200
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Boyce,
This is a thought provoking paper indeed. Incidentally Pastor Solly Kubeka
presented a lecture on Church Discipline to senior youth on Sabbath
afternoon in the Mafikeng District Camp Meeting. In my response to your
paper I will quote 3 approaches to discipline which were depicted in
Solly's presentation.
The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary's definition of discipline states;
Training especially of the mind and character to produce self-control,
habits of obedience.
The three approaches to discipline are 1) the judgmental approach, 2) the
ostrich/head in the sand approach and 3) the redemptive approach.
The judgmental approach
People who use this approach are guilt ridden, they depend on hear-say and
accuse without finding facts. This approach is cruel, vindictive,
destructive and justice is never considered when this approach is
administered. A typical example of the use of this approach is that of the
Pharisees when they brought a caught in the act of adultery to Jesus. Where
was the other party? The motive of the Pharisees was not to discipline,
infact they could care less about the welfare of the poor woman. It is
amazing that Jesus could read through their wicked minds. This is an
unchristian approach.
The second approach is the ostrich approach where church members will
pretend not to see when a brother/sister trespasses by simply deeping their
head in the sand, it's none of their business anyway. An example of this
approach is found in 1 Cor. 5 where the church did nothing when a brother
was practicing sexual immorality openly. Often we meet our fellow brothers
and sisters doing wrong and pretend not to see them so that they won't have
to explain themselves to us. Paul says in verse 6; "Don't you know that a
little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?" Normally when a
church practice this approach, the consciences of church members are
dampened, and moral standards are compromised. It becomes acceptable for an
unmarried couple to cohabit and still be elected to church office. This
approach is as destructive as the judgmental approach, after all we are our
brother's keepers.
The last approach is the redemptive which is based on Mat.18: 15 - 17. This
passage provides the general principle of how discipline should be
administered whether a brother/sister sins against an individual or God. If
this principle is administered according to its chronological steps as
stated in Mat 18, we wouldn't be discussing a lot of cases in our church
boards and business meetings and surely there would be few censures or
disfellowships. This approach makes it difficult for the church to reach
the very last option in discipline which is disfellowship. In Galatians 6:
1 Paul says "Brothers if someone is caught in sin, you who are spiritual
should restore him gently. But watch yourself or you also may be tempted."
In this verse Paul is dealing with atittudes and perceptions of church
members towards the brother/sister who has sinned. This brings us to your
question "Who gaves the church the authority to discipline?"
Christ himself gave the church the authority to disfellowship, Mat 18:17
says "... treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Jesus here is
actually saying if the brother/sister neglects to hear the church we should
treat him/her as if he was never a church member/baptised. Paul reiterates
this in 1 Cor. 5:13 "... expel the wicked man from among you."
Note that in Gal. 6:1 Paul doesn't say "you who are righteous", I guess he
acknowledges the fact that our righteousness are as filthy rags in God's
sight. Paul assumes that those who administer discipline are walking in the
Spirit hence he said "you who are spiritual." I'd like to believe that a
spiritual person is not perfect but striving for perfection.
Paul futher says "we should restore him gently". I'd like to believe that
Paul would like ua to take into cognisence the importance of our attitudes
when administering discipline. When we discipline, we are not repairing
rather we are restoring - an effort of placing someone to his/her origional
state- and the adjective is gently. Paul requests us to engage in this
process gently. He further requires us to loose the "hollier than thou"
attitude by warning us to watch ourselves lest we be tempted. He also urges
us to bear each other's burdens in verse 2. In essence, Paul is advising us
to do more than being our brother's keepers by taking care of each other.
Verse 10 he says "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all
men , especially unto them who are of the household of faith (family of
believers)".
Coming to the question of the "Grevious Sin" you equired if "persistent
refusal to recognise properly constituted church authority may be a
sufficient cause for disfellowship is really sin." I think our God is a God
of order hence there are laws and procedures in the church. I also believe
that it is not the magnitude but rather the attitude of the person that
censure or disfellowship is executed. If one question constituted church
authotrity which the entire church recognises, it would be difficult for
one to even attend church since he/she does not have confidance in the very
church authority. I believe our church is a democratic church, if one
presents his/her case, is given a hearing and proper procedure is exercised
for the two parties to present their cases, whoever is in the wrong should
be willing to be humble to admit the guilt. If it is an individual who is
in the wrong and he/she refuses to humble himself/herself, as Jesus said
the church can treat the individual as if he/she were a tax collector. But
remember, the idea of discipline is to train/restore the mind and character
to habits of obedience.
I am a believer in treating each case according to its merits. A case may
be the same at face value but the cirsumstances may be different. For
example, a case of a young man who impregnates a young woman whom he is
angaged to is different from a case of a young man who impregnates a young
woman whom he claims he doesn't love and has no intentions of marrying. At
face value the two cases are the same but the conditions are defferent. It
would be unjust to execute a similar disciplinary measures to the two cases
because the disciplinary mearsure on one case does not set a precedence to
another similar case.
As for those who administer discipline whilst they are secretly holding on
to their sins, Paul's warning is "Be not be decieved; God is not mocked;
for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to
his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption ..." 1 Cor 6: 7,8.
I wish all christians could follow their Master's example to the letter.
Love your neighbour as yourself.
----------
> From: Bangisi, Nikelo <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: RE: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
> Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 5:26 PM
>
> From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> May I join you before I go home.
>
> WHO GIVES THE CHURCH AUTHORITY?
>
> The authority given to the church, the wife of Jesus, is to be exercised
in
> the absence of the bride, Jesus Himself. Now when I am not home and my
> children are with my wife alone it will not be good for her not exercise
> her own judgement and discipline when the children deserve to be
> disciplined. The church exercises her own justified discretion to
discipline
> those who commit wrong.
>
> Maybe our problem is the question of proportionality which Boyce has
brought
> forward. The question is whether one should execute equal punishment to
one
> who has deliberately and knowingly committed a sin as against one who
> "slipped off" not knowing that he was doing wrong. One therefore must
check
> the word of the Lord. In Acts 17:25-30 we discover that the Lord will
> forgive those who did not know about Him. But those who know about Him
they
> will be punished according to the knowledge of truth they have acquired.
I
> remember a verse that says there is a sin that leads to death and one
that
> does not lead to eternal death. This must tell us there are sins that are
> rated according to the weight and effect they have down here. The
discipline
> similarly should be proportional.
>
> The problem is the abuse of the manual by us, mortals, when we sit to
> investigate the facts and then we fail to apply our minds because of the
> prejudices against the "offender". Let me give this example: Three
persons
> are involved in a similar sin namely fornication. The first two, a male
and
> a female have this relationship and want to get married to each other.
> Unfortunately they fornicated and now the lady is pregnant. When they
> realise that this has occurred they run to lobola and prepare to get
married
> soon. However it is not possible to get married soon because the tummy is
> fattening fast. So they must wait until the baby is delivered.
>
> The last person is a young Adventist lady who falls pregnant by a
> non-Adventist gentleman. There is no intention to get married.
>
> How should one judge the facts? Disfellowship the one and censure the
other
> two, I ask?
>
> Well, my sense of judgement tells me that I must be consistent with facts
> and apply equal discipline. Whether I disfellowship or censure it must be
> the same to both of them. The sin committed is fornication whether there
is
> intention to get married or not.
> It is precisely here where the problem is. Emotions rise and the temper
of
> the brethren goes up. Others say "no live these two alone and just
censure
> them because they belong to this church and they intend to marry very
soon".
> "But you should disfellowship this other one" No further reasons are
> normally given why this other one should be disfellowshipped. One can
only
> apply the rationale of the first case to determine the reasons of the
second
> one.
>
> I think consistency ought to be the buzz word when we look at different
> offences.
>
> In one church all the men could not keep the Sabbath because their
employers
> would not allow them to be home every Sabbath day. What the church did in
> this instance was somehow interesting. One of the ladies was elected
church
> elder without the men being disciplined formally as it were. Later on the
> husband resigned from work and stared to do a different work. In this
> instance the only discipline that was applied was to let them not to
occupy
> any position in church. Of course, this sounded unique, but the principle
> was applied consistently to all men who were working on a Sabbath day.
>
> May I pause and state that in line with the wife-husband relationship it
is
> sin to defy properly constituted authority of the church, the wife Jesus.
Of
> course, we are on earth but there are people who would act in such a way
as
> to deny the fact that there are elders in a particular church. If an
> outsider comes to my church and finds that the elders are not present on
> that day and then decide to exercise their authority by attempting to let
> the church vote for his own proposal, he would have to be subjected to
> church discipline for stepping in the shoes that do not fit him. This is
> church authority to me.
>
> I submit, therefore, that Jesus gave the church full authority to
exercise
> judgement and punishment in His absence. I maintain that although we are
> sinners, we are saved sinners who must die daily and draw strength from
the
> One who provides us with power to think and exercise proper discretion as
> derived from above. Where we err grace covers it all and becomes as if we
> did not err at all.
>
>
> Come Lord Jesus, come!
>
> Happy Sabbath
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mashudu Ravhengani [mailto:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
> Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 4:21 PM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>
>
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
> Boyce,
> Are we supposed to tell the pastor/elder not to preach because he is
> unconsecrated? Church discipline is central to the gospel, as child
> discipline is central to child upbringing. Can God use Balak to bless his
> people?
> Are we to stop returning tithe because the tithe the conference is
corrupt?
> Are we to stop exercising church discipline because we are not perfect?
> Real question is when there is the problem with the vessels do we change
the
> rules or the vessel?
> It's like having a problem with the car and try to fix the road instead.
> I would like to submit that we need changing not God's system?
>
> Peace!
>
> Jeremiah
>
> >>> "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> 09/10 1:08 PM >>>
> From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
>
> Jerry,
>
> My boy is growing, he turned seven months two days ago. I am grateful to
> the Lord for him. I gave him the name Kelello because my desire is for
him
> to have brains/wisdom. Incidentally, he was born on the same day that
the
> world President of our church resigned, Elder Folkenberg. This said to
me,
> my boy may be the future world president of our church, if heaven is not
> down then. Just making you catch up on the latest family issues, hope
Mili
> is fine and your bundle of joy.
>
> Thanks for your constructive comments on the subject I proposed. I like
> this because our mental faculties are at work. Let me start by
addressing
> your comment about the flawed foundation in so far as sam relates to
using
> concepts 'discipline' and 'judgement' interchangeably.
>
> 'JUDGEMENT' versus 'DISCIPLINE'
>
> I believe that the two concepts of discipline and judgement are, contrary
to
> your averment, interrelated. Judgement is about determining guilt or
> innocence. When the judge in a court of law passes judgement, two things
> are possible, one the judge may find that accusations levelled against
you
> have no substance and therefore find you innocent. Alternatively, the
judge
> may find that the accussations against you do have substance and
pronounce
> you guilty. When God shall come he will determine first whether you are
a
> goat (guilty) or a sheep(saved into His righteousness). Once this
process
> is completed, then punishment will follow. Therefore, it is not a
foregone
> conclusion that wherever there is judgement, there is always a
punishment,
> there could also be a reward - come and enter into my joy you faithful
> servant. We must distinguish between judgement and sentencing. The two
are
> different.
>
> While judgement has two sides to it, discipline has only side---that is
> punitive. Yes, I agree, discipline has a corrective angle, but it
remains
> punitive. Discipline is almost, if not completely, sentencing, which
means
> you have gone past the stage of judging. You effect discipline because
> there is an evaluation process that you have undertaken to determine
whether
> the person is guilty or innocent. That evaluation process is nothing but
> judgement. Discipline therefore becomes a by-product of judgement. In
your
> example of a child who either spills milk or come home at 1:00am, you as
a
> parent set a standard that says milk shall not be spilled in this house
nor
> shall you arrive after 7:00pm. How do you know the child has
transgressed?
> When I see milk spilled down or when I have to open the door for him/her
at
> 1:00am. So I start by recognising that my law has been violated and I
then
> determine what the appropriate discipline/corrective measure or sentence
> will be. I conclude therefore that judgement is inevitable in any
> disciplinary process/measure.
>
> Coming to church, you see a little unmarried girl pushing a big tummy and
> you know it is not because she ate too much but because some life is
> developing within her. You don't just say, she must be censured or
> disfellowshipped. The first step is to determine if this conduct is
> acceptable or not. You go to the guide (Bible) that tells you that
> indulgence in sexual relations prior to being like me, is sinful. You
have
> actually judged.
>
> You rightly make the point as I do in my document, that we will always
have
> a problem when unconsecrated men handly holy things---exactly my point.
Are
> we suited to handle this consecrated business? The fact that we
exercise
> discipline in love, does not really give us a title to administer it, for
it
> still remains discipline preceded by judgement. You can handle a wrong
> thing correctly---it's like a student who gives a perfect answer to a
> question that is not asked. Yes we may handle discipline the correct way
as
> you suggest, but the question still remains, are we the ones to conduct
this
> business.
>
> I submit that our business is to point sinners (I guess ourselves) to the
> cross of Calvary and encourage each other in this challenging journey.
> There is nothing wrong in calling sin by its right name and encouraging
the
> brother who is going astray to find his path again.
>
> Face to face with Christ my Saviour ---soon it shall be.
>
> Boyce
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 11:01 PM
> Subject: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>
>
> From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Boyce,
>
> Let me take this time to welcome you back to the family. We missed
> you.
> Your analytic skills and your emphasis on details always impress me,
> as I read your postings it's like watching a brain surgeon remove a
> brain tumor.
> I appreciate the effort that you have taken to produce this paper on
> church discipline. The issues that you have address are issues that
> are affecting us all in this age and time.
>
> One thing that I like about this discussion list is that we are able
> to disagree in love. Having said that let me go straight to the
> point. I strongly disagree (sounds familiar) with your position.
> In many of our churches there is a misrepresentation of what church
> discipline is all about. You have taken this misrepresented view of
> church discipline and build your position on it. There is a major
> flaw on the foundation of your position.
>
> CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
>
> Now that I have succeeded in getting everybody*s attention I can
> continue.
> The subject of your mail says *Disfellowship and Church Discipline*
> whereas the title of your says *THE JUDGES OF THE FLESH!*. The first
> line in your paper says, *The subject of discipline in God*s church
> is a rather sensitive*.* Throughout your document you maintain the
> theme of judgement.
>
> Here, lies the major flaw of your position, you seem to use the two
> words, discipline and judgement interchangeably. This is the flawed
> foundation. The majority of our members make the same mistake, so I
> am not surprised. The two actions, discipline and judgement are
> worlds apart from each other. It is unfortunate that the word like
> discipline which is positive in its meaning can be confused with the
> word judgment, which is negative in its intend and purposes. Since
> most of our church members do not understand church discipline and
> the critical role that it plays in the priesthood of believers, they
> despise it and see it as a punishment (the results of judgment).
>
> The dictionary also testifies that the two words do not have similar
> or related meanings.
> I must make this one thing clear, I do have a problem with church
> discipline, however my problem is not with the institution of church
> discipline, but with the way in which it is exercised in many of our
> churches, I will try to elaborate on this latter.
>
> What is judgement?
> From your professional background you can answer this question better
> than I can, so I will not attempt.
> Judgement results in punishment (if pardon is not an option) for the
> guilty party. Punishment is the rewards that the offender deserves.
> If you have killed somebody and the law says an eye for and eye, then
> you will be killed also.
>
> What is discipline?
> I see discipline as a corrective measure that is taken to restore or
> bring back the offender. Even more that discipline seeks to uplift
> the offender to a higher ground. Unlike judgement, disciple is not a
> reward of the persons action even though the level of discipline may
> vary (I will deal with this later). Discipline when correctly
> administered it is an act of love.
> If discipline becomes a punishment then something has gone horribly
> wrong.
> Can you imagine a father who shoots his son on the head because he
> forgot to polish his boots?
> Later I will use this parallel of child discipline and church
> discipline to illustrate my point.
>
> Does the church (flesh) judge its members?
> NO! The Bible says thou shall not judge; only God is the Judge.
> What does the church do? The church like a good parent exercises
> discipline. Spare the rod and spoil the child, there is a biblical
> version in Proverbs. Even God says that those that He loves he
> chastises. The role of the church discipline is the same as that of a
> good parent; it is to correct, to rebuke and to restore.
> I thank my parents for their stern discipline when I was growing up.
> If ever it was not for that discipline I won*t be writing this mail
> to you. I didn*t like it then, but now I appreciate it.
> No one ever disciplines a child by giving him/her extra cookies or
> asks the child to choose how to be disciplined nor expect the child
> will discipline him/herself.
> God has given us many, many object lesson, if only we can just stop
> and look/listen we will hear/see the gospel. Yes, church discipline
> is not sweet; of course it can*t be sweet and still be discipline.
> If the church decides to discipline you instead of trying to point
> the sins of others, you need to be grateful that the church/God cares
> so much that want to correct them. Blessed is the man/woman who
> gets/receives correction!
> When the church fails to exercise discipline it does not only fail
> God but also the one who broke God*s law.
> I know what I am talking about, there is someone who is very close to
> me whom the church because of her public status decided not to
> discipline her, and till today she is just hanging in limbo, and that
> hurts me.
> Now, let's look closely at this issue of discipline.
>
> Why selective discipline?
> Why discipline a girl who has committed fornication not the elder who
> is lusting after the deacon*s wife?
> I wonder if this question has any value if discipline is not view as
> judgment. Anyway let me continue.
> There are many of us who have secret sins, sins that we love so
> dearly, sins that the church board will never found out. How luck
> (blessed?) we are!
> Contrary to the above, I think it is a blessing when your sin comes
> into the light.
> Having said that we need to understand that to be in good and regular
> standing in a local church does not mean your name is in the books of
> heaven.
> Church discipline does not replace our direct accountability to God.
> Church discipline is more than just a way of maintaining a clean
> house, it is the gospel. The discipline is an extra fence created to
> help those who are weak, of course not everybody is so luck to be
> caught by this fence. As much as you give a medicine to those who
> look sickly, those who pretend that they are well or whom you don*t
> know that they are sick are left out. So, in this case a
> "fornicator" is luck to be found out, bad luck to the "luster"! If we
> really know Jesus we will be happy when our sins comes to the light,
> psalmist says " Search me*."
>
> Why have varying degrees of discipline?
> Why Disfellowship brother M and only censure sister K
> If we go back to our example of child discipline, if a child spills
> milk he might get just a stern warning, but if he insists on coming
> back home at 1:00AM a different type of discipline might be
> exercised.
> So, is church discipline, sometimes it is necessary to send a strong
> message of rebuke.
>
> Jesus and the women caught in the act of adultery
> What need to understand is that the Jewish leaders were not in the
> business of administering church discipline, they were administering
> judgement. This is what Law of Moses specified. Jesus came to put an
> end to this system. He said let them grow together till the time of
> judgement, this was a very revolutionary message.
> The differences between discipline and judgement have already been
> dealt with above.
>
> My problem with church discipline
> As I have said before, my problem is not with the system of church
> discipline, but with the way it is administered in many of our
> churches. We will always have a problem when unconsecrated men handle
> holy things. I believe that if church discipline was exercised with
> love its effect will be more positive. Back to the example of the
> child discipline, we are told never to discipline children when we
> are angry, but exercise discipline in love.
> I believe that if we were to discipline people with tears in our eyes
> and prayer on our lips those people who disciplined will be won back
> to the Lord.
>
> People who fight when they are disciplined.
> People who have committed sins that the church feels that they
> require church discipline and yet they fight and refuse to be
> disciplined only testify that they desperately need church
> discipline. If one has truly repented the respond will be, 'whatever
> you say Lord I will do'. Spirit of calling lawyers and
> representatives and arguing can only come from the devil. It does not
> matter that those who are administering have their own sins, the Lord
> will take care of them.
> Our problem is that the members of our churches have a form of
> godliness, yet denying its power.
> We can't lower the standards to accommodate the members; the members
> must be lifted up to where Christ is.
>
> What's the fuss about disfellowship?
> To me, I see it as figurative action not really true to its meaning.
> People who are disfellowshed are still allowed to attend church every
> Sabbath, and after few months get a privilege of the second baptism.
> Where is the fuss? Some people just have big ego's that will stand on
> their way to heaven. All they are concerned about is for their names
> to be in the books on earth and not concerned about heaven.
>
> Research proves contrary to popular believe, church which have strong
> church discipline have high church growth than those with low
> standards. Why?
>
> The time is about 2:AM, I think I need to and sleep, see y'all later!
>
> Sound the trumpet, Jesus is coming soon!
>
> Jeremiah
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Show your ONElist SPIRIT!
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt2 ">Click Here</a>
> With a new ONElist SHIRT available through our website.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ATTN ONELIST USERS: stay current on the latest activities,
> programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
> <a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,
> NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. Apply online
today!
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/nextcard5 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist: your connection to online communities.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:02:33 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Church discipline or church judgement
Boyce
It is time to fulfil the promise I made on Thursday. I must say I enjoy the views expressed here on this topic, at the risk of repeating what has been said, I would like to make few observations.
Your question, do we have the right as a church to administer discipline, or should we not let the person recuse himself/herself? It looks like this is where Jerry picked up some resistance, that is to your usage and understanding of Judgement. You have convincingly made your point, as to the interrelatedness of discipline and judging, and I concur with you. But Jerry is also correct in reminding us that we should not judge, so according to Jerry the church is not involved in judging but in disciplining, the two are not the same, as he puts it. Since both positions can be justified scripturally, the best is to reconcile these seemingly contradictory positions. The context, and not the dictionary, is usually the best place to look for a meaning of a word. For us to know what judging is and means, let us allow the Bible to judge and may we respect its verdict. I want to take the advice that Jerry gave me some time ago, that when I am in doubt I should follow the light, seriously.
1. The Bible in support of not judging
One cannot be in doubt that the Bible is very explicit when it comes to the issue of judging. We are admonished not to judge. Allow me to indicate this by looking at a few texts
a.. Matthew. 7:1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged...", here we are told that we cannot judge because we have limited vision/understanding - "Why do you look at a a speck of sawdust in one's eye when you have s plank in yours , first removed and then you will see" It is my opinion that the removing of the plank from my eye is a life long process, and as such, I will never be qualified to judge, until that day (more about that later)
b.. Romans 14:4,10 ,13 "why do you judge your brother, or why do you look down on your brother, for we will stand at God's judgement seat... let us stop passing judgement on one another" Here judging is somehow, interpreted as "looking down on your brother", condemning is also the other meaning(vs.)
c.. James 4:11-12 "Brothers do not slander one another, anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him, speaks against the law and judges it..." We see here that slandering and speaking against a brother is tantamount for judging him.
d.. 1 Corinthians 4:5 "Judge nothing before the appointed time, wait till the Lord comes, He will bring to light what is hidden and will expose motives of men's hearts." Here we are admonished to wait, and allow Christ to do the judging, since He alone can read the motives of the heart
Without boring you with all the details, I think the above is sufficient to at least show that the Bible is against judging. So Jerry is correct, if we as a church are judging, we are in violation of the above.
2. Bible in support of judging
It can also be shown that the Bible does speak of judging as something that we should and can do. The few texts may help,
a.. 1 Cor. 5:12; 6:1-7 here we are told that we are to judge those who are inside(church) God will take care of those who are outside. (Thanks to Dan for this one) The second passage encourages us to judge trivial cases, and to refrain from taking each other to courts of law, we are to do the judging ourselves. This is premised on the fact that we will judge the world one day, so we might as well start now. We are even encouraged to appoint Judges within the church to do this job.
How do we reconcile the above positions, bearing in mind that the Bible cannot contradict itself. Briefly for lack of space, the first view seems to have a ring of finality. It deals with one's destiny, there is no opportunity to change. It is more of condemnation than discipline and only God can do it, for He is the only one who has all the facts. The second leans more on discipline and correcting, deciding who is wrong and who is right or whether the behaviour is acceptable or not. The Bible says we can do the second one. "You shall know them by their fruit, but this should not lead us to a point where we condemn them, for the Bible does not maintain that, once a bad fruit always a bad fruit. The important thing is what we do when we recognise the fruit, do we despise the brother, look down on him, no with love we seek to win him back.
Boyce maintains that what we can do is to encourage one another to look at the cross, but that is what discipline is supposed to do. It is one way of encouraging each other. Discipline does not need to be disfellowship or censure to be effective, it can also mean talking to the brother who has a problem and praying with him, that is discipline. The church can also discipline by calling those affected and talking to them showing them their wrongs. Our preaching can also serve as discipline, I have witnessed people crying during preaching, for they realise the wrong they have done (not always). The community of believers if it wants to live to its name, must find time to discipline to nurture and to reprove. That is the judging we can do and are encouraged to do. "Let them grow together"? but it still our responsibility to help the tares become the wheat, in the meantime.
How can discipline be done, when we ourselves are sinners?
This to my opinion is what Boyce is opposed to. This is understandable especially when one notes the harm at times we as the church do when it comes to disciplining. But the Bible says we must, it is our task, we cannot fold hands and say the Lord will do it, for His will be final, we must let Him show us how to help each other in the interim. "By their fruit we shall know them", is not as easy as it sounds. take the case of pregnancy, for on the surface it seems easy. What we usually do, is to look at the tummy and call the church board, disfellowship or censure being the end result. but is this fair,? Below are some of the reasons a person might be pregnant/
a.. Rape - how do you know whether one's pregnancy is as a result of rape, even by a boy friend. Do you discipline the victim, for lack of physical strength or moral strength? In other cases people are known to have been made to sleep with their partners, after being drugged, how do you decide in that case?
b.. Ignorance - I know you might laugh at this, some can be pregnant simply because of ignorance. In these days, when there is tendency to rush people for baptism, without proper teaching, this is possible. Some may think,as other Christian do, that as long as you are planning to get married there is no problem. Here the person to be discipline is the church that failed in its responsibility to teach.
c.. Momentary weakness - for lack of a better word. It is not always the case that pregnancy is the sign of rebellion. It could be one moment of carelessness, which the person regrets for the rest of her life. But to treat this person as if she is a heathen is not right.
d.. Act of rebellion - there will always be those who plan to be pregnant for various reasons, who go to the extent of repeating the same sin again and again. What do we do in this case?
If we must help , we must know what the causes of the problem are, otherwise we will be irrelevant and cruel at times. To do this we need God's guidance, we need each other, to make sure that we are not prejudiced against the person, try to be as objective as possible, we must talk to the person, ask him to give his side of the story. This needs time if we must do it right. The tendency to rush these matters has often led to more wounds being inflicted on the victims. Some may want to recuse themselves, as Boyce suggests, but this also must be approved by the church, for one can do it out of ignorance.
In short, Boyce to me it seems as if as a church we have the right and the responsibility to discipline as a form of nurture and building of the church. Yes there are problems around this, If I had time I could give you a list of them.
"So make it your goal to please him,.... for we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each may receive what is due him, for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" 2 Cor. 5:9-10.
He must come to judge the world.
Jongimpi
First of all, here we have a war of terminology, and each seems to think he has the right definition while the other is wrong. I believe that both Jerry while on the surface appear to be opposed, are essentially correct, their understanding seems ton be the two sides of the same coin. Jerry maintains that we should not judge, he is correct and that is biblical as I will show. Boyce articulates his position convincingly,that we are to judge and we do judge, he is also correct and his position is also biblical. Maybe Jerry's attempt to separate discipline from judging was a little one sided, as shown by Boyce.
I want to attempt to show that both positions are biblical and that our task is to rather explain what we mean by the terms we use. In other words, we must examine the contexts where the term judge appears and seek to understand its meaning in that context, the dictionary is a limited method of finding a meaning to any term, I think the context where the term appears and how it is used by the writer is the best way of arriving at the meaning of the term
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
| Resources | |||||
|
|||||
| Copyright © 1998-99 ONElist, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Important Disclaimers and Legal Information |