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There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Cape Conference Clips
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
2. Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
3. Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
4. RE: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
5. TC-TOC - Church Unity
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
6. Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:09:00 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Cape Conference Clips
11 SEPTEMBER - DAY OF PRAYER
11 September has been set aside for a Day of Prayer for Net New York. As we pray together for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the speaker, the visitors and members may we focus on our mission and be moved to active part in sharing the Good News.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:08:37 -0700
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Jerry,
My boy is growing, he turned seven months two days ago. I am grateful to
the Lord for him. I gave him the name Kelello because my desire is for him
to have brains/wisdom. Incidentally, he was born on the same day that the
world President of our church resigned, Elder Folkenberg. This said to me,
my boy may be the future world president of our church, if heaven is not
down then. Just making you catch up on the latest family issues, hope Mili
is fine and your bundle of joy.
Thanks for your constructive comments on the subject I proposed. I like
this because our mental faculties are at work. Let me start by addressing
your comment about the flawed foundation in so far as sam relates to using
concepts 'discipline' and 'judgement' interchangeably.
'JUDGEMENT' versus 'DISCIPLINE'
I believe that the two concepts of discipline and judgement are, contrary to
your averment, interrelated. Judgement is about determining guilt or
innocence. When the judge in a court of law passes judgement, two things
are possible, one the judge may find that accusations levelled against you
have no substance and therefore find you innocent. Alternatively, the judge
may find that the accussations against you do have substance and pronounce
you guilty. When God shall come he will determine first whether you are a
goat (guilty) or a sheep(saved into His righteousness). Once this process
is completed, then punishment will follow. Therefore, it is not a foregone
conclusion that wherever there is judgement, there is always a punishment,
there could also be a reward - come and enter into my joy you faithful
servant. We must distinguish between judgement and sentencing. The two are
different.
While judgement has two sides to it, discipline has only side---that is
punitive. Yes, I agree, discipline has a corrective angle, but it remains
punitive. Discipline is almost, if not completely, sentencing, which means
you have gone past the stage of judging. You effect discipline because
there is an evaluation process that you have undertaken to determine whether
the person is guilty or innocent. That evaluation process is nothing but
judgement. Discipline therefore becomes a by-product of judgement. In your
example of a child who either spills milk or come home at 1:00am, you as a
parent set a standard that says milk shall not be spilled in this house nor
shall you arrive after 7:00pm. How do you know the child has transgressed?
When I see milk spilled down or when I have to open the door for him/her at
1:00am. So I start by recognising that my law has been violated and I then
determine what the appropriate discipline/corrective measure or sentence
will be. I conclude therefore that judgement is inevitable in any
disciplinary process/measure.
Coming to church, you see a little unmarried girl pushing a big tummy and
you know it is not because she ate too much but because some life is
developing within her. You don't just say, she must be censured or
disfellowshipped. The first step is to determine if this conduct is
acceptable or not. You go to the guide (Bible) that tells you that
indulgence in sexual relations prior to being like me, is sinful. You have
actually judged.
You rightly make the point as I do in my document, that we will always have
a problem when unconsecrated men handly holy things---exactly my point. Are
we suited to handle this consecrated business? The fact that we exercise
discipline in love, does not really give us a title to administer it, for it
still remains discipline preceded by judgement. You can handle a wrong
thing correctly---it's like a student who gives a perfect answer to a
question that is not asked. Yes we may handle discipline the correct way as
you suggest, but the question still remains, are we the ones to conduct this
business.
I submit that our business is to point sinners (I guess ourselves) to the
cross of Calvary and encourage each other in this challenging journey.
There is nothing wrong in calling sin by its right name and encouraging the
brother who is going astray to find his path again.
Face to face with Christ my Saviour ---soon it shall be.
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 11:01 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Boyce,
Let me take this time to welcome you back to the family. We missed
you.
Your analytic skills and your emphasis on details always impress me,
as I read your postings it's like watching a brain surgeon remove a
brain tumor.
I appreciate the effort that you have taken to produce this paper on
church discipline. The issues that you have address are issues that
are affecting us all in this age and time.
One thing that I like about this discussion list is that we are able
to disagree in love. Having said that let me go straight to the
point. I strongly disagree (sounds familiar) with your position.
In many of our churches there is a misrepresentation of what church
discipline is all about. You have taken this misrepresented view of
church discipline and build your position on it. There is a major
flaw on the foundation of your position.
CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Now that I have succeeded in getting everybody’s attention I can
continue.
The subject of your mail says ‘Disfellowship and Church Discipline’
whereas the title of your says ‘THE JUDGES OF THE FLESH!’. The first
line in your paper says, “The subject of discipline in God’s church
is a rather sensitive….” Throughout your document you maintain the
theme of judgement.
Here, lies the major flaw of your position, you seem to use the two
words, discipline and judgement interchangeably. This is the flawed
foundation. The majority of our members make the same mistake, so I
am not surprised. The two actions, discipline and judgement are
worlds apart from each other. It is unfortunate that the word like
discipline which is positive in its meaning can be confused with the
word judgment, which is negative in its intend and purposes. Since
most of our church members do not understand church discipline and
the critical role that it plays in the priesthood of believers, they
despise it and see it as a punishment (the results of judgment).
The dictionary also testifies that the two words do not have similar
or related meanings.
I must make this one thing clear, I do have a problem with church
discipline, however my problem is not with the institution of church
discipline, but with the way in which it is exercised in many of our
churches, I will try to elaborate on this latter.
What is judgement?
From your professional background you can answer this question better
than I can, so I will not attempt.
Judgement results in punishment (if pardon is not an option) for the
guilty party. Punishment is the rewards that the offender deserves.
If you have killed somebody and the law says an eye for and eye, then
you will be killed also.
What is discipline?
I see discipline as a corrective measure that is taken to restore or
bring back the offender. Even more that discipline seeks to uplift
the offender to a higher ground. Unlike judgement, disciple is not a
reward of the persons action even though the level of discipline may
vary (I will deal with this later). Discipline when correctly
administered it is an act of love.
If discipline becomes a punishment then something has gone horribly
wrong.
Can you imagine a father who shoots his son on the head because he
forgot to polish his boots?
Later I will use this parallel of child discipline and church
discipline to illustrate my point.
Does the church (flesh) judge its members?
NO! The Bible says thou shall not judge; only God is the Judge.
What does the church do? The church like a good parent exercises
discipline. Spare the rod and spoil the child, there is a biblical
version in Proverbs. Even God says that those that He loves he
chastises. The role of the church discipline is the same as that of a
good parent; it is to correct, to rebuke and to restore.
I thank my parents for their stern discipline when I was growing up.
If ever it was not for that discipline I won’t be writing this mail
to you. I didn’t like it then, but now I appreciate it.
No one ever disciplines a child by giving him/her extra cookies or
asks the child to choose how to be disciplined nor expect the child
will discipline him/herself.
God has given us many, many object lesson, if only we can just stop
and look/listen we will hear/see the gospel. Yes, church discipline
is not sweet; of course it can’t be sweet and still be discipline.
If the church decides to discipline you instead of trying to point
the sins of others, you need to be grateful that the church/God cares
so much that want to correct them. Blessed is the man/woman who
gets/receives correction!
When the church fails to exercise discipline it does not only fail
God but also the one who broke God’s law.
I know what I am talking about, there is someone who is very close to
me whom the church because of her public status decided not to
discipline her, and till today she is just hanging in limbo, and that
hurts me.
Now, let's look closely at this issue of discipline.
Why selective discipline?
Why discipline a girl who has committed fornication not the elder who
is lusting after the deacon’s wife?
I wonder if this question has any value if discipline is not view as
judgment. Anyway let me continue.
There are many of us who have secret sins, sins that we love so
dearly, sins that the church board will never found out. How luck
(blessed?) we are!
Contrary to the above, I think it is a blessing when your sin comes
into the light.
Having said that we need to understand that to be in good and regular
standing in a local church does not mean your name is in the books of
heaven.
Church discipline does not replace our direct accountability to God.
Church discipline is more than just a way of maintaining a clean
house, it is the gospel. The discipline is an extra fence created to
help those who are weak, of course not everybody is so luck to be
caught by this fence. As much as you give a medicine to those who
look sickly, those who pretend that they are well or whom you don’t
know that they are sick are left out. So, in this case a
"fornicator" is luck to be found out, bad luck to the "luster"! If we
really know Jesus we will be happy when our sins comes to the light,
psalmist says " Search me…."
Why have varying degrees of discipline?
Why Disfellowship brother M and only censure sister K
If we go back to our example of child discipline, if a child spills
milk he might get just a stern warning, but if he insists on coming
back home at 1:00AM a different type of discipline might be
exercised.
So, is church discipline, sometimes it is necessary to send a strong
message of rebuke.
Jesus and the women caught in the act of adultery
What need to understand is that the Jewish leaders were not in the
business of administering church discipline, they were administering
judgement. This is what Law of Moses specified. Jesus came to put an
end to this system. He said let them grow together till the time of
judgement, this was a very revolutionary message.
The differences between discipline and judgement have already been
dealt with above.
My problem with church discipline
As I have said before, my problem is not with the system of church
discipline, but with the way it is administered in many of our
churches. We will always have a problem when unconsecrated men handle
holy things. I believe that if church discipline was exercised with
love its effect will be more positive. Back to the example of the
child discipline, we are told never to discipline children when we
are angry, but exercise discipline in love.
I believe that if we were to discipline people with tears in our eyes
and prayer on our lips those people who disciplined will be won back
to the Lord.
People who fight when they are disciplined.
People who have committed sins that the church feels that they
require church discipline and yet they fight and refuse to be
disciplined only testify that they desperately need church
discipline. If one has truly repented the respond will be, 'whatever
you say Lord I will do'. Spirit of calling lawyers and
representatives and arguing can only come from the devil. It does not
matter that those who are administering have their own sins, the Lord
will take care of them.
Our problem is that the members of our churches have a form of
godliness, yet denying its power.
We can't lower the standards to accommodate the members; the members
must be lifted up to where Christ is.
What's the fuss about disfellowship?
To me, I see it as figurative action not really true to its meaning.
People who are disfellowshed are still allowed to attend church every
Sabbath, and after few months get a privilege of the second baptism.
Where is the fuss? Some people just have big ego's that will stand on
their way to heaven. All they are concerned about is for their names
to be in the books on earth and not concerned about heaven.
Research proves contrary to popular believe, church which have strong
church discipline have high church growth than those with low
standards. Why?
The time is about 2:AM, I think I need to and sleep, see y'all later!
Sound the trumpet, Jesus is coming soon!
Jeremiah
__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
Show your ONElist SPIRIT!
<a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt2 ">Click Here</a>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:21:19 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Boyce,
Are we supposed to tell the pastor/elder not to preach because he is unconsecrated? Church discipline is central to the gospel, as child discipline is central to child upbringing. Can God use Balak to bless his people?
Are we to stop returning tithe because the tithe the conference is corrupt?
Are we to stop exercising church discipline because we are not perfect?
Real question is when there is the problem with the vessels do we change the rules or the vessel?
It's like having a problem with the car and try to fix the road instead.
I would like to submit that we need changing not God's system?
Peace!
Jeremiah
>>> "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> 09/10 1:08 PM >>>
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
Jerry,
My boy is growing, he turned seven months two days ago. I am grateful to
the Lord for him. I gave him the name Kelello because my desire is for him
to have brains/wisdom. Incidentally, he was born on the same day that the
world President of our church resigned, Elder Folkenberg. This said to me,
my boy may be the future world president of our church, if heaven is not
down then. Just making you catch up on the latest family issues, hope Mili
is fine and your bundle of joy.
Thanks for your constructive comments on the subject I proposed. I like
this because our mental faculties are at work. Let me start by addressing
your comment about the flawed foundation in so far as sam relates to using
concepts 'discipline' and 'judgement' interchangeably.
'JUDGEMENT' versus 'DISCIPLINE'
I believe that the two concepts of discipline and judgement are, contrary to
your averment, interrelated. Judgement is about determining guilt or
innocence. When the judge in a court of law passes judgement, two things
are possible, one the judge may find that accusations levelled against you
have no substance and therefore find you innocent. Alternatively, the judge
may find that the accussations against you do have substance and pronounce
you guilty. When God shall come he will determine first whether you are a
goat (guilty) or a sheep(saved into His righteousness). Once this process
is completed, then punishment will follow. Therefore, it is not a foregone
conclusion that wherever there is judgement, there is always a punishment,
there could also be a reward - come and enter into my joy you faithful
servant. We must distinguish between judgement and sentencing. The two are
different.
While judgement has two sides to it, discipline has only side---that is
punitive. Yes, I agree, discipline has a corrective angle, but it remains
punitive. Discipline is almost, if not completely, sentencing, which means
you have gone past the stage of judging. You effect discipline because
there is an evaluation process that you have undertaken to determine whether
the person is guilty or innocent. That evaluation process is nothing but
judgement. Discipline therefore becomes a by-product of judgement. In your
example of a child who either spills milk or come home at 1:00am, you as a
parent set a standard that says milk shall not be spilled in this house nor
shall you arrive after 7:00pm. How do you know the child has transgressed?
When I see milk spilled down or when I have to open the door for him/her at
1:00am. So I start by recognising that my law has been violated and I then
determine what the appropriate discipline/corrective measure or sentence
will be. I conclude therefore that judgement is inevitable in any
disciplinary process/measure.
Coming to church, you see a little unmarried girl pushing a big tummy and
you know it is not because she ate too much but because some life is
developing within her. You don't just say, she must be censured or
disfellowshipped. The first step is to determine if this conduct is
acceptable or not. You go to the guide (Bible) that tells you that
indulgence in sexual relations prior to being like me, is sinful. You have
actually judged.
You rightly make the point as I do in my document, that we will always have
a problem when unconsecrated men handly holy things---exactly my point. Are
we suited to handle this consecrated business? The fact that we exercise
discipline in love, does not really give us a title to administer it, for it
still remains discipline preceded by judgement. You can handle a wrong
thing correctly---it's like a student who gives a perfect answer to a
question that is not asked. Yes we may handle discipline the correct way as
you suggest, but the question still remains, are we the ones to conduct this
business.
I submit that our business is to point sinners (I guess ourselves) to the
cross of Calvary and encourage each other in this challenging journey.
There is nothing wrong in calling sin by its right name and encouraging the
brother who is going astray to find his path again.
Face to face with Christ my Saviour ---soon it shall be.
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 11:01 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Boyce,
Let me take this time to welcome you back to the family. We missed
you.
Your analytic skills and your emphasis on details always impress me,
as I read your postings it's like watching a brain surgeon remove a
brain tumor.
I appreciate the effort that you have taken to produce this paper on
church discipline. The issues that you have address are issues that
are affecting us all in this age and time.
One thing that I like about this discussion list is that we are able
to disagree in love. Having said that let me go straight to the
point. I strongly disagree (sounds familiar) with your position.
In many of our churches there is a misrepresentation of what church
discipline is all about. You have taken this misrepresented view of
church discipline and build your position on it. There is a major
flaw on the foundation of your position.
CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Now that I have succeeded in getting everybody*s attention I can
continue.
The subject of your mail says *Disfellowship and Church Discipline*
whereas the title of your says *THE JUDGES OF THE FLESH!*. The first
line in your paper says, *The subject of discipline in God*s church
is a rather sensitive*.* Throughout your document you maintain the
theme of judgement.
Here, lies the major flaw of your position, you seem to use the two
words, discipline and judgement interchangeably. This is the flawed
foundation. The majority of our members make the same mistake, so I
am not surprised. The two actions, discipline and judgement are
worlds apart from each other. It is unfortunate that the word like
discipline which is positive in its meaning can be confused with the
word judgment, which is negative in its intend and purposes. Since
most of our church members do not understand church discipline and
the critical role that it plays in the priesthood of believers, they
despise it and see it as a punishment (the results of judgment).
The dictionary also testifies that the two words do not have similar
or related meanings.
I must make this one thing clear, I do have a problem with church
discipline, however my problem is not with the institution of church
discipline, but with the way in which it is exercised in many of our
churches, I will try to elaborate on this latter.
What is judgement?
From your professional background you can answer this question better
than I can, so I will not attempt.
Judgement results in punishment (if pardon is not an option) for the
guilty party. Punishment is the rewards that the offender deserves.
If you have killed somebody and the law says an eye for and eye, then
you will be killed also.
What is discipline?
I see discipline as a corrective measure that is taken to restore or
bring back the offender. Even more that discipline seeks to uplift
the offender to a higher ground. Unlike judgement, disciple is not a
reward of the persons action even though the level of discipline may
vary (I will deal with this later). Discipline when correctly
administered it is an act of love.
If discipline becomes a punishment then something has gone horribly
wrong.
Can you imagine a father who shoots his son on the head because he
forgot to polish his boots?
Later I will use this parallel of child discipline and church
discipline to illustrate my point.
Does the church (flesh) judge its members?
NO! The Bible says thou shall not judge; only God is the Judge.
What does the church do? The church like a good parent exercises
discipline. Spare the rod and spoil the child, there is a biblical
version in Proverbs. Even God says that those that He loves he
chastises. The role of the church discipline is the same as that of a
good parent; it is to correct, to rebuke and to restore.
I thank my parents for their stern discipline when I was growing up.
If ever it was not for that discipline I won*t be writing this mail
to you. I didn*t like it then, but now I appreciate it.
No one ever disciplines a child by giving him/her extra cookies or
asks the child to choose how to be disciplined nor expect the child
will discipline him/herself.
God has given us many, many object lesson, if only we can just stop
and look/listen we will hear/see the gospel. Yes, church discipline
is not sweet; of course it can*t be sweet and still be discipline.
If the church decides to discipline you instead of trying to point
the sins of others, you need to be grateful that the church/God cares
so much that want to correct them. Blessed is the man/woman who
gets/receives correction!
When the church fails to exercise discipline it does not only fail
God but also the one who broke God*s law.
I know what I am talking about, there is someone who is very close to
me whom the church because of her public status decided not to
discipline her, and till today she is just hanging in limbo, and that
hurts me.
Now, let's look closely at this issue of discipline.
Why selective discipline?
Why discipline a girl who has committed fornication not the elder who
is lusting after the deacon*s wife?
I wonder if this question has any value if discipline is not view as
judgment. Anyway let me continue.
There are many of us who have secret sins, sins that we love so
dearly, sins that the church board will never found out. How luck
(blessed?) we are!
Contrary to the above, I think it is a blessing when your sin comes
into the light.
Having said that we need to understand that to be in good and regular
standing in a local church does not mean your name is in the books of
heaven.
Church discipline does not replace our direct accountability to God.
Church discipline is more than just a way of maintaining a clean
house, it is the gospel. The discipline is an extra fence created to
help those who are weak, of course not everybody is so luck to be
caught by this fence. As much as you give a medicine to those who
look sickly, those who pretend that they are well or whom you don*t
know that they are sick are left out. So, in this case a
"fornicator" is luck to be found out, bad luck to the "luster"! If we
really know Jesus we will be happy when our sins comes to the light,
psalmist says " Search me*."
Why have varying degrees of discipline?
Why Disfellowship brother M and only censure sister K
If we go back to our example of child discipline, if a child spills
milk he might get just a stern warning, but if he insists on coming
back home at 1:00AM a different type of discipline might be
exercised.
So, is church discipline, sometimes it is necessary to send a strong
message of rebuke.
Jesus and the women caught in the act of adultery
What need to understand is that the Jewish leaders were not in the
business of administering church discipline, they were administering
judgement. This is what Law of Moses specified. Jesus came to put an
end to this system. He said let them grow together till the time of
judgement, this was a very revolutionary message.
The differences between discipline and judgement have already been
dealt with above.
My problem with church discipline
As I have said before, my problem is not with the system of church
discipline, but with the way it is administered in many of our
churches. We will always have a problem when unconsecrated men handle
holy things. I believe that if church discipline was exercised with
love its effect will be more positive. Back to the example of the
child discipline, we are told never to discipline children when we
are angry, but exercise discipline in love.
I believe that if we were to discipline people with tears in our eyes
and prayer on our lips those people who disciplined will be won back
to the Lord.
People who fight when they are disciplined.
People who have committed sins that the church feels that they
require church discipline and yet they fight and refuse to be
disciplined only testify that they desperately need church
discipline. If one has truly repented the respond will be, 'whatever
you say Lord I will do'. Spirit of calling lawyers and
representatives and arguing can only come from the devil. It does not
matter that those who are administering have their own sins, the Lord
will take care of them.
Our problem is that the members of our churches have a form of
godliness, yet denying its power.
We can't lower the standards to accommodate the members; the members
must be lifted up to where Christ is.
What's the fuss about disfellowship?
To me, I see it as figurative action not really true to its meaning.
People who are disfellowshed are still allowed to attend church every
Sabbath, and after few months get a privilege of the second baptism.
Where is the fuss? Some people just have big ego's that will stand on
their way to heaven. All they are concerned about is for their names
to be in the books on earth and not concerned about heaven.
Research proves contrary to popular believe, church which have strong
church discipline have high church growth than those with low
standards. Why?
The time is about 2:AM, I think I need to and sleep, see y'all later!
Sound the trumpet, Jesus is coming soon!
Jeremiah
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
Show your ONElist SPIRIT!
<a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/tshirt2 ">Click Here</a>
With a new ONElist SHIRT available through our website.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
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The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:26:49 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Gentlemen,
May I join you before I go home.
WHO GIVES THE CHURCH AUTHORITY?
The authority given to the church, the wife of Jesus, is to be exercised in
the absence of the bride, Jesus Himself. Now when I am not home and my
children are with my wife alone it will not be good for her not exercise
her own judgement and discipline when the children deserve to be
disciplined. The church exercises her own justified discretion to discipline
those who commit wrong.
Maybe our problem is the question of proportionality which Boyce has brought
forward. The question is whether one should execute equal punishment to one
who has deliberately and knowingly committed a sin as against one who
"slipped off" not knowing that he was doing wrong. One therefore must check
the word of the Lord. In Acts 17:25-30 we discover that the Lord will
forgive those who did not know about Him. But those who know about Him they
will be punished according to the knowledge of truth they have acquired. I
remember a verse that says there is a sin that leads to death and one that
does not lead to eternal death. This must tell us there are sins that are
rated according to the weight and effect they have down here. The discipline
similarly should be proportional.
The problem is the abuse of the manual by us, mortals, when we sit to
investigate the facts and then we fail to apply our minds because of the
prejudices against the "offender". Let me give this example: Three persons
are involved in a similar sin namely fornication. The first two, a male and
a female have this relationship and want to get married to each other.
Unfortunately they fornicated and now the lady is pregnant. When they
realise that this has occurred they run to lobola and prepare to get married
soon. However it is not possible to get married soon because the tummy is
fattening fast. So they must wait until the baby is delivered.
The last person is a young Adventist lady who falls pregnant by a
non-Adventist gentleman. There is no intention to get married.
How should one judge the facts? Disfellowship the one and censure the other
two, I ask?
Well, my sense of judgement tells me that I must be consistent with facts
and apply equal discipline. Whether I disfellowship or censure it must be
the same to both of them. The sin committed is fornication whether there is
intention to get married or not.
It is precisely here where the problem is. Emotions rise and the temper of
the brethren goes up. Others say "no live these two alone and just censure
them because they belong to this church and they intend to marry very soon".
"But you should disfellowship this other one" No further reasons are
normally given why this other one should be disfellowshipped. One can only
apply the rationale of the first case to determine the reasons of the second
one.
I think consistency ought to be the buzz word when we look at different
offences.
In one church all the men could not keep the Sabbath because their employers
would not allow them to be home every Sabbath day. What the church did in
this instance was somehow interesting. One of the ladies was elected church
elder without the men being disciplined formally as it were. Later on the
husband resigned from work and stared to do a different work. In this
instance the only discipline that was applied was to let them not to occupy
any position in church. Of course, this sounded unique, but the principle
was applied consistently to all men who were working on a Sabbath day.
May I pause and state that in line with the wife-husband relationship it is
sin to defy properly constituted authority of the church, the wife Jesus. Of
course, we are on earth but there are people who would act in such a way as
to deny the fact that there are elders in a particular church. If an
outsider comes to my church and finds that the elders are not present on
that day and then decide to exercise their authority by attempting to let
the church vote for his own proposal, he would have to be subjected to
church discipline for stepping in the shoes that do not fit him. This is
church authority to me.
I submit, therefore, that Jesus gave the church full authority to exercise
judgement and punishment in His absence. I maintain that although we are
sinners, we are saved sinners who must die daily and draw strength from the
One who provides us with power to think and exercise proper discretion as
derived from above. Where we err grace covers it all and becomes as if we
did not err at all.
Come Lord Jesus, come!
Happy Sabbath
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani [mailto:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 4:21 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Boyce,
Are we supposed to tell the pastor/elder not to preach because he is
unconsecrated? Church discipline is central to the gospel, as child
discipline is central to child upbringing. Can God use Balak to bless his
people?
Are we to stop returning tithe because the tithe the conference is corrupt?
Are we to stop exercising church discipline because we are not perfect?
Real question is when there is the problem with the vessels do we change the
rules or the vessel?
It's like having a problem with the car and try to fix the road instead.
I would like to submit that we need changing not God's system?
Peace!
Jeremiah
>>> "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za> 09/10 1:08 PM >>>
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
Jerry,
My boy is growing, he turned seven months two days ago. I am grateful to
the Lord for him. I gave him the name Kelello because my desire is for him
to have brains/wisdom. Incidentally, he was born on the same day that the
world President of our church resigned, Elder Folkenberg. This said to me,
my boy may be the future world president of our church, if heaven is not
down then. Just making you catch up on the latest family issues, hope Mili
is fine and your bundle of joy.
Thanks for your constructive comments on the subject I proposed. I like
this because our mental faculties are at work. Let me start by addressing
your comment about the flawed foundation in so far as sam relates to using
concepts 'discipline' and 'judgement' interchangeably.
'JUDGEMENT' versus 'DISCIPLINE'
I believe that the two concepts of discipline and judgement are, contrary to
your averment, interrelated. Judgement is about determining guilt or
innocence. When the judge in a court of law passes judgement, two things
are possible, one the judge may find that accusations levelled against you
have no substance and therefore find you innocent. Alternatively, the judge
may find that the accussations against you do have substance and pronounce
you guilty. When God shall come he will determine first whether you are a
goat (guilty) or a sheep(saved into His righteousness). Once this process
is completed, then punishment will follow. Therefore, it is not a foregone
conclusion that wherever there is judgement, there is always a punishment,
there could also be a reward - come and enter into my joy you faithful
servant. We must distinguish between judgement and sentencing. The two are
different.
While judgement has two sides to it, discipline has only side---that is
punitive. Yes, I agree, discipline has a corrective angle, but it remains
punitive. Discipline is almost, if not completely, sentencing, which means
you have gone past the stage of judging. You effect discipline because
there is an evaluation process that you have undertaken to determine whether
the person is guilty or innocent. That evaluation process is nothing but
judgement. Discipline therefore becomes a by-product of judgement. In your
example of a child who either spills milk or come home at 1:00am, you as a
parent set a standard that says milk shall not be spilled in this house nor
shall you arrive after 7:00pm. How do you know the child has transgressed?
When I see milk spilled down or when I have to open the door for him/her at
1:00am. So I start by recognising that my law has been violated and I then
determine what the appropriate discipline/corrective measure or sentence
will be. I conclude therefore that judgement is inevitable in any
disciplinary process/measure.
Coming to church, you see a little unmarried girl pushing a big tummy and
you know it is not because she ate too much but because some life is
developing within her. You don't just say, she must be censured or
disfellowshipped. The first step is to determine if this conduct is
acceptable or not. You go to the guide (Bible) that tells you that
indulgence in sexual relations prior to being like me, is sinful. You have
actually judged.
You rightly make the point as I do in my document, that we will always have
a problem when unconsecrated men handly holy things---exactly my point. Are
we suited to handle this consecrated business? The fact that we exercise
discipline in love, does not really give us a title to administer it, for it
still remains discipline preceded by judgement. You can handle a wrong
thing correctly---it's like a student who gives a perfect answer to a
question that is not asked. Yes we may handle discipline the correct way as
you suggest, but the question still remains, are we the ones to conduct this
business.
I submit that our business is to point sinners (I guess ourselves) to the
cross of Calvary and encourage each other in this challenging journey.
There is nothing wrong in calling sin by its right name and encouraging the
brother who is going astray to find his path again.
Face to face with Christ my Saviour ---soon it shall be.
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 11:01 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Boyce,
Let me take this time to welcome you back to the family. We missed
you.
Your analytic skills and your emphasis on details always impress me,
as I read your postings it's like watching a brain surgeon remove a
brain tumor.
I appreciate the effort that you have taken to produce this paper on
church discipline. The issues that you have address are issues that
are affecting us all in this age and time.
One thing that I like about this discussion list is that we are able
to disagree in love. Having said that let me go straight to the
point. I strongly disagree (sounds familiar) with your position.
In many of our churches there is a misrepresentation of what church
discipline is all about. You have taken this misrepresented view of
church discipline and build your position on it. There is a major
flaw on the foundation of your position.
CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Now that I have succeeded in getting everybody*s attention I can
continue.
The subject of your mail says *Disfellowship and Church Discipline*
whereas the title of your says *THE JUDGES OF THE FLESH!*. The first
line in your paper says, *The subject of discipline in God*s church
is a rather sensitive*.* Throughout your document you maintain the
theme of judgement.
Here, lies the major flaw of your position, you seem to use the two
words, discipline and judgement interchangeably. This is the flawed
foundation. The majority of our members make the same mistake, so I
am not surprised. The two actions, discipline and judgement are
worlds apart from each other. It is unfortunate that the word like
discipline which is positive in its meaning can be confused with the
word judgment, which is negative in its intend and purposes. Since
most of our church members do not understand church discipline and
the critical role that it plays in the priesthood of believers, they
despise it and see it as a punishment (the results of judgment).
The dictionary also testifies that the two words do not have similar
or related meanings.
I must make this one thing clear, I do have a problem with church
discipline, however my problem is not with the institution of church
discipline, but with the way in which it is exercised in many of our
churches, I will try to elaborate on this latter.
What is judgement?
From your professional background you can answer this question better
than I can, so I will not attempt.
Judgement results in punishment (if pardon is not an option) for the
guilty party. Punishment is the rewards that the offender deserves.
If you have killed somebody and the law says an eye for and eye, then
you will be killed also.
What is discipline?
I see discipline as a corrective measure that is taken to restore or
bring back the offender. Even more that discipline seeks to uplift
the offender to a higher ground. Unlike judgement, disciple is not a
reward of the persons action even though the level of discipline may
vary (I will deal with this later). Discipline when correctly
administered it is an act of love.
If discipline becomes a punishment then something has gone horribly
wrong.
Can you imagine a father who shoots his son on the head because he
forgot to polish his boots?
Later I will use this parallel of child discipline and church
discipline to illustrate my point.
Does the church (flesh) judge its members?
NO! The Bible says thou shall not judge; only God is the Judge.
What does the church do? The church like a good parent exercises
discipline. Spare the rod and spoil the child, there is a biblical
version in Proverbs. Even God says that those that He loves he
chastises. The role of the church discipline is the same as that of a
good parent; it is to correct, to rebuke and to restore.
I thank my parents for their stern discipline when I was growing up.
If ever it was not for that discipline I won*t be writing this mail
to you. I didn*t like it then, but now I appreciate it.
No one ever disciplines a child by giving him/her extra cookies or
asks the child to choose how to be disciplined nor expect the child
will discipline him/herself.
God has given us many, many object lesson, if only we can just stop
and look/listen we will hear/see the gospel. Yes, church discipline
is not sweet; of course it can*t be sweet and still be discipline.
If the church decides to discipline you instead of trying to point
the sins of others, you need to be grateful that the church/God cares
so much that want to correct them. Blessed is the man/woman who
gets/receives correction!
When the church fails to exercise discipline it does not only fail
God but also the one who broke God*s law.
I know what I am talking about, there is someone who is very close to
me whom the church because of her public status decided not to
discipline her, and till today she is just hanging in limbo, and that
hurts me.
Now, let's look closely at this issue of discipline.
Why selective discipline?
Why discipline a girl who has committed fornication not the elder who
is lusting after the deacon*s wife?
I wonder if this question has any value if discipline is not view as
judgment. Anyway let me continue.
There are many of us who have secret sins, sins that we love so
dearly, sins that the church board will never found out. How luck
(blessed?) we are!
Contrary to the above, I think it is a blessing when your sin comes
into the light.
Having said that we need to understand that to be in good and regular
standing in a local church does not mean your name is in the books of
heaven.
Church discipline does not replace our direct accountability to God.
Church discipline is more than just a way of maintaining a clean
house, it is the gospel. The discipline is an extra fence created to
help those who are weak, of course not everybody is so luck to be
caught by this fence. As much as you give a medicine to those who
look sickly, those who pretend that they are well or whom you don*t
know that they are sick are left out. So, in this case a
"fornicator" is luck to be found out, bad luck to the "luster"! If we
really know Jesus we will be happy when our sins comes to the light,
psalmist says " Search me*."
Why have varying degrees of discipline?
Why Disfellowship brother M and only censure sister K
If we go back to our example of child discipline, if a child spills
milk he might get just a stern warning, but if he insists on coming
back home at 1:00AM a different type of discipline might be
exercised.
So, is church discipline, sometimes it is necessary to send a strong
message of rebuke.
Jesus and the women caught in the act of adultery
What need to understand is that the Jewish leaders were not in the
business of administering church discipline, they were administering
judgement. This is what Law of Moses specified. Jesus came to put an
end to this system. He said let them grow together till the time of
judgement, this was a very revolutionary message.
The differences between discipline and judgement have already been
dealt with above.
My problem with church discipline
As I have said before, my problem is not with the system of church
discipline, but with the way it is administered in many of our
churches. We will always have a problem when unconsecrated men handle
holy things. I believe that if church discipline was exercised with
love its effect will be more positive. Back to the example of the
child discipline, we are told never to discipline children when we
are angry, but exercise discipline in love.
I believe that if we were to discipline people with tears in our eyes
and prayer on our lips those people who disciplined will be won back
to the Lord.
People who fight when they are disciplined.
People who have committed sins that the church feels that they
require church discipline and yet they fight and refuse to be
disciplined only testify that they desperately need church
discipline. If one has truly repented the respond will be, 'whatever
you say Lord I will do'. Spirit of calling lawyers and
representatives and arguing can only come from the devil. It does not
matter that those who are administering have their own sins, the Lord
will take care of them.
Our problem is that the members of our churches have a form of
godliness, yet denying its power.
We can't lower the standards to accommodate the members; the members
must be lifted up to where Christ is.
What's the fuss about disfellowship?
To me, I see it as figurative action not really true to its meaning.
People who are disfellowshed are still allowed to attend church every
Sabbath, and after few months get a privilege of the second baptism.
Where is the fuss? Some people just have big ego's that will stand on
their way to heaven. All they are concerned about is for their names
to be in the books on earth and not concerned about heaven.
Research proves contrary to popular believe, church which have strong
church discipline have high church growth than those with low
standards. Why?
The time is about 2:AM, I think I need to and sleep, see y'all later!
Sound the trumpet, Jesus is coming soon!
Jeremiah
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:31:06 +0200
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: TC-TOC - Church Unity
I observed that my responses to Nikelo Bangisi and Mashudu Ravhengani on the issue of TC-TOC "Church Unity" have evoked and stimulated discussions. Your comments, reaction and interaction on/to the subject prove to me that you actually engaged yourselves with my contribution, and I appreciate that. I was impressed by the way you reflected, analysed the whole process of Church Unity. I also accept that there is a somewhat wide gulf between encoding [the message that is transmitted - spoken or written] and decoding [the message that is understood - hearing or understanding].
1. Responding to Vusi Kaunda's frustration - "the lack of proper communication by the TOC and local church delegation." I appreciate the fact that Vusi recognises that there is communication, but it is not proper. We live in the information age and we owe it to ourselves to be informed. We cannot leave this aspect of life at the mercy of those who should provide information. It is also true that in the absence of sufficient information, people tend to be suspicious and susceptible to creating their own realities or worldview, and the inevitable consequences might be wrong conclusions and misinformed, misguided actions. The TOC is also concerned about the fact that she employs several modes of communication - ranging from letters, Sessions to available forums in the district and local levels. It is apparent that the TOC's loudness is experienced as silence to some. The TOC has just released a mid-year 12-page report last month [August 1999], and the subject at issue is part of that report. It behoves you to study that report. It appears to me that Vusi Kaunda, [together with others who share his sentiments], is either not a member of church board, or does not attend some of church business meetings, or there are no church business meetings in his church - which is unlikely, or he forgets church announcements - a possibility, or does not mandate and demand a report from his church delegate to the session - which is likely. In this case we can but do little to help.
2. Responding to Lungani and Nikelo's interpretation - "you have this target of 34 718 total membership in the TOC for financial purposes more than 'spreading the word'"? It is interesting to note that God created us differently in that one statement - "in the interim..." can be understood differently by different persons. One wanders if the issue is actually people's different frames of reference instead of the statement itself. It is true that what we are and have experienced tend to influence our interpretation and reflection of what we see and encounter. If this is true, then one cannot be fully held accountable for people's conclusions because one had no share in the formation of people's worldview. I agree with Mashudu Ravhengani that "May be the statement 'In the interim,' might be what lead to the misunderstanding." The unfortunate eventuality is that what you misunderstood might actually be an understanding to you, and may unavoidably become the premise of your arguments.
The intention of my statement was not to link "church growth" to or make it the aim and motivation of "Church Unity" talks. The Gospel cannot and should not be commercialised. The Gospel was intended to save sinners, but not for "merger" or marriage. We cannot begin to sacrifice the gospel at the alter of our quest to "unite." This would be tantamount to the perversion of the Gospel. The two items ["Church Growth" and "Church Unity"], in my statement, should be understood to be separate and independent of each. The "Church Growth" programme preceded and transcends "Church Unity." The "Church Growth" programme existed in the TOC prior to the recent Session, and also prior to "Church Unity" talks.
I think it is obvious in most cases that "numerical growth" gives birth to "financial growth." These two are naturally linked, but they should not be interpreted [in the context of my statement] to mean "a motivation for Church Unity." Mashudu Ravhengani, [together with those who might have understood my statements but did not air their views], has succinctly captured the gist of my comments in his expression: "I didn't understand him to be saying that they set a goal of doubling the membership in order to meet the demands of the TC, nor that the goal of doubling the membership was set in order to improve the financial situation of the conference."
3. To Unite or not to Unite? - I think this is a wrong question, and if we pursue it - we will arrive at wrong answers. The right question should be "How do we Unite as a Church?" I think Church Unity is right at Jesus Christ's prayer - in effect, a moral imperative: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in Me and I am in You. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent Me," John 17:20-21 NIV. The word "one" should be interpreted to mean "united" in love, mission, purpose, fellowship and worship [worship?]. This "oneness" should not in anyway be understood as an opportunity of engaging in deculturisation [stripping one of his/her culture] or acculturation [take over of one culture by another] or ethnocentricism [using one's own culture to positively or negatively evaluate and despise other cultures]. I think Church Unity is more complex than discussed here. I think we should take the risk of uniting, and then leave the consequences to the Lord, Jesus Christ because He prayed for it - and also as an answer to His prayer.
Tankiso Letseli
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:32:34 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
I am enjoying Jerry and Boyce's discussion on church discipline. I
would like to hear Boyce's idea on the following passage by the Apostle
Paul. I Cor 5:1-13
Verse 12 reads:
" For what have I to do with JUDGING ousiders? IS IT
NOT THOSE INSIDE WHOM YOU ARE TO JUDGE? verse 12 RSV, emphasis mine.
Note verse 13 from the Amplified Bible:
"God alone sits on judgement on those who are outside. Drive out that
wicked one amoung you [expel him from your church]."
Am I reading these verses correctly? All versions I have checked put it
this way. I don't think I am reading this passage out of context as the
whole chapter deals with a brother who has committed a "terrible" sin.
Do we have enough evidence to suggest that the word "JUDGE" is wrongly
used here? Even if it can be proved that the word is incorrectly used
Paul's position is contrary to Boyce's.
My opinion in the whole issue:
I personally do not see anything wrong with disciplining an erring member.
We don't have to be perfect to do the task. The only thing we often
forget as Jerry has noted is to conduct it with love. Mrs White says that
we need to be very careful when disfellowshiping a member. (I'll bring
reference on Monday).
Happy Sabbath.
Daniel
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