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There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Re: Disfellowship and Church Discipline
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
2. FW: Kids on love and marriage
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
3. Cape Conference Clips (9/9/99)
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
4. Re: Admin
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
5. Re: FW: Kids on love and marriage
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
6. Witchcraft
From: MLAMLI PAPU <papu@xxxxxxx.xxxx
7. Witchcraft
From: "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@xxxx.xx.xxx
8. CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 11:53:39 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Re: Disfellowship and Church Discipline
Boyce
I have read your attachment on church discipline and just on the surface it
seems to be thought provoking. However I can only share my views on it
sometime on Monday. I am sure some of us will find it interesting also and
will contribute.
Till then
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 8:44 AM
Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Disfellowship and Church Discipline
I have always been concerned about this subject and I share my concerns in
the attached document for your input. Please share your thoughts with me.
Cheers
Boyce
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Mashudu
I thought the animal was dead, somebody resurrected, now that it is alive,
let us see if we can skin, and this time we will skin it alive.
Your understanding of Matt. 19 is enlightening, I am sure if you had enough
time, you would still go on and explain the issue in detail. There is one
person who thinks that you guys have time to write, that is all I will say.
I am sure this is one of the issues we need to submit to the GC,next year
for consideration, for your church directly contradicts your position. (See
your Manual on the topic Divorce and Remarriage. Your SDA Bible Commentary
seems to disagree with your position. Ellen G White, "Thoughts from the
Mount of blessing, from the little she wrote, seems not to be in harmony
with your position.
You ask why the disciples thought it was better not to marry? Maybe, they
saw that there will be no way of escape once they get married. For which
woman would commit adultery, if that is the only acceptable reason for
adultery. Adultery was punishable by death and not divorce. Remember here
we have a group of men, they were the ones who had a problem and not the
wives. All we hear about the women is that they brought their children to
Jesus to be blessed, for they could see that their husbands are looking for
ways to dump them.
I might still be wrong, but I LOVE THE BIBLE.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Jongimpi
You wrote:
>However I would like to know whether according to your understanding
there never is a time when divorce can be >justified. I seem to read
in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to me unfaithfulness
is a biblical ground for >divorce.
My pastor, I know you did expect me to respond. It seems like this
animal called divorce will never leave us alone. I thought we laid it
to rest but its seems like it has more than one lives.
I think it is good that this animal has come back again because up to
so far we have never discussed this topic based on what the Bible
says. Now lets listen to what the Bible says and I hope this will lay
this deadly animal to rest.
Lets start with the verse that you have quoted, Matt 19:3-10, NKJV
The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is
it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?" 4 And
He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made
[them] at the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 "and said,
'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be
joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "So then,
they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined
together, let not man separate." 7 They said to Him, "Why then did
Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?"
8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts,
permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was
not so. 9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for
sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever
marries her who is divorced commits adultery." 10 His disciples said
to Him, "If such is the case of the man with [his] wife, it is better
not to marry."
The question was: "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for
[just] any reason?"
Lets look at this very carefully, in other words, can I divorce for
just any reason, REMEMBER ANY REASON INCLUDES ADULTERY! This is very
important to note; this was the first question asked and now lets
listen to the respond. " Have you not read that He who made [them] at
the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 "and said, 'For this
reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his
wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "So then, they are no
longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let
not man separate."
Let no man separate FOR ANY REASON (including adultery) that which
God has joined together. That's exactly what Jesus is saying. That
the respond that Jesus gave to question of whether we should divorce
or not. And I believe that since He does not change that is the
respond that He still gives today. Let no man separate FOR ANY REASON
(including adultery) that which God has joined together!
Now lets look at the SECOND question. The Bible is very clear. I love
the Bible!
The second question says: Why then did Moses command to give a
certificate of divorce, and to put her away?
And here is Jesus reply, "Moses, because of the hardness of your
hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning
it was not so."
This is Jesus respond to the second question. Jesus is saying as much
as it was not God's plan for you to have kings, and God allowed it
because of the hardness of your hearts, divorce FOR ANY REASON is not
the plan of God.
Lets stop here for a moment and note that it is a dangerous thing to
go against God's plan, divorce and the Israel's monarchy testifies to
this.
We don’t have time to go and look at Moses statement on divorce but I
would like to say that Moses neither condoned or allowed divorce. The
Israelites were divorcing their wives without the permission of
Moses, and this divorced women were looked upon by people as
prostitutes, so Moses said to these heart-hardened men that when you
send your wife away give them a letter that will testify that they
were married and were divorce. This certificate will grant then
similar benefits and status like the widows. Of course like any other
thing this certificate was abused. I believe that this abuse still
continue even today, instead of using the certificate, we abuse Matt
19:9
Now lets look at Matt 19:99, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his
wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits
adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
Now, let's let the Bible speak for itself, what is Jesus addressing?
Is he addressing divorce? No, or at least that is not the gist of
this statement. I see this statement to be addressing adultery more
that divorce. As much as a man who looks at a woman in a lustful way
commits adultery, I man who DIVORCES HIS WIFE AND MARRIES ANOTHER for
any reason other than sexual immorality is committing adultery.
Even if we were to go along with those who say He is addressing
divorce, we will still be wrong, for he has to be addressing DIVORCE
AND REMARRIAGE, not just divorce.
The Bible does not says that if your wife commits adultery then
divorce her, the Bible will be contradicting itself, for God hates
divorce! Yes he does!
I hope this is very clear.
What is even more interesting is the response of the disciples. Have
you ever wondered why they said it is better not to marry? It is
because they realized that marriage is not as they thought it was.
It is also important for us to note that only Matthew has added this
clause, Luke and Mark do not have it even though they address the
same subject. And let remember that the book of Matthew was written
for the Jews.
This what Mark says: Mark 10:11-12
11 So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another
commits adultery against her. 12 "And if a woman divorces her husband
and marries another, she commits adultery."
I wish I had time to go on, but I hope that this will redirect this
debate back to the Bible.
Let's let the Bible speak!
Jeremiah
--- Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> Boyce I read your input with keen interest. I must say it is a
> blessing to have people of your calibre in these discussions.
>
> However I would like to know whether according to your
> understanding there never is a time when divorce can be justified.
> I seem to read in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to
> me unfaithfulness is a biblical ground for divorce.
>
> I Know I am going to be bombarded by the statement, "God hates
> divorce". I want to thank my colleagues in advance for this
> reminder. But why does God hate divorce? Is that the only
> thing HE hates. What if one divorces in spite of the fact that He
> hates it? One of the reasons why God hates divorce is that, it
> breaks or interrupts the lesson God wants us to give us concerning
> his relationship to us. God's covenant with His church is
> patterned after the marriage relationship, the church is the woman,
> the wife of Christ. God hates divorce, for God sent Jesus to die
> for the church because he would not divorce her, in spite of her
> sinfulness.
>
> But there are instances in the OT, where God admits that the only
> way of helping Israel is to divorce her, and this was done because
> of her unfaithfulness, by falling in love with other gods. Israel
> as a Nation was finally divorced by God because of her refusal to
> be faithful.
>
> God does not only hate divorce, He does not approve of it. As
> SDA's we believe that if one divorces on grounds that are not
> biblical, he remains married in the sight of God, and as such
> whoever marries him, commits adultery, as long as the divorced
> partner is still alive. Sometimes separation can bring a healing
> to a dying relationship, Jerry prefers to call it "cooling off",
> which to my mind can be permanent,for as long as the cause of the
> cooling off is still hot, one has to continue cooling off, to a
> point where he can freeze.
>
> I am sure many will disagree with me on the above, but at least we
> can agree on the point that, divorce is not an unpardonable sin,
> and that God hates unfaithfulness and abuse which often leads to
> divorce which he also hates. Let us not limit God only to the
> result, He hates the cause also.
>
> Lastly, I believe in forgiveness, but the way I understand it is
> that, a wife can divorce her husband and still forgive him, and
> she can forgive her husband but still divorce him.
>
> Having said the above, I am sure some of the pastors will want to
> rebaptize me.
>
> Love at Home
>
> Jongimpi married to Nomthandazo.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:22 PM
> Subject: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
>
>
> Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared
> due to technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be
> back. Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely,
> whether it will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and
> allocate a specific period to it or whatever yardstick before
> moving on to the next topic. I say so because, I was battling to
> choose which subject I must respond to, divorce or TC/TOC merger,
> both interesting subjects. This will enable us to at least have
> our site manager summarise the key points or issues arising out of
> each subject for future use at the conclusion of each debate,
> although we know, there may be fresh information in future on the
> same subject that members may wish to share. Perhaps, a point to
> ponder upon.
>
> Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
>
> I have listened with interest to the various submissions and
> theories on the causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is
> necessary to engage in a somewhat fishing expidition trying to
> ascertain or identify a grocery list of items or elements that
> cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to determine whether the
> means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly is whether or
> not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective of the
> circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to
> submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the
> inability of spouses to reconcile their different positions and
> therefore their subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is
> deliberately loosened.
>
> In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of
> divorce if and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down
> with no prospect of resuming a normal marriage relationship between
> the spouses. What causes the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage
> is of course a material factor in determining whether or not there
> exists a ground for the annulment of a marriage. But more
> importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor has led to
> the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore,
> is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are
> still capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled,
> divorce may not be granted.
>
> This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you
> want to spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with
> God could be regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of
> the Eden fall. All that needed to happen was a decree of divorce
> that would condemn humanity to eternal death as promised. However,
> Christ reconciled Himself to us and us to Him through His death and
> therefore the marriage was saved. If the marriage with Christ
> could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for any other
> marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was
> disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a
> terribly grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we
> supposed to emulate Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
>
> In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be
> able to trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this?
> Perhaps true. When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening,
> the thought rings, it could be a meeting with that man with whom
> she committed adultery. So trust becomes an issue and the question
> is whether one can remain in a relationship where fear is the order
> of the day.
>
> I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of
> utmost adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about
> convenience but also does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We
> acknowledge this when we vow and make our commitment to stay
> together till death do us part. I say yes because it was not
> convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans, endure
> the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was
> not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept
> that marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The
> degrees may differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If
> Christ could at the verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive
> them, for they know not what they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt
> is capable of being forgiven. If Stephan could say the similar
> words while bleeding from stone cuts, then humanity can still
> forgive.
>
> This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the
> Master Forgiver is capable of doing it through us. We may not be
> capable of enduring the humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the
> stigma attached thereto, but Hosea could do it through Him who is
> able to do immeasurably more than all of use could imagine.
>
> So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages
> high. It depends whether you allow the cup to pass or you say
> Lord, let not my will be done by Thine. You see religion is not a
> joke. It is a paradox and the more one is able to stay on the
> right side of the paradox, the better his/her Christian life
> becomes.
>
> I have spoken for long.....food for thought
>
>
> Boyce Mkhize
>
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_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:41:02 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: FW: Kids on love and marriage
> HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHOM TO MARRY?
> -------------------------------
> "You got to find somebody who likes the same stuff. Like if you like
> sports,
> she should like it that you like sports, and she should keep the chips and
> dip coming."
> Alan, age 10
>
> "No person really decides before they grow up who they're going to marry.
> God decides it all way before, and you get to find out later who you're
> stuck with."
> Kirsten, age 10
>
> WHAT IS THE RIGHT AGE TO GET MARRIED?
> -------------------------------------
> "Twenty-three is the best age because you know the person FOREVER by
> then."
> Camille, age 10
>
> "No age is good to get married at. You got to be a fool to get married."
> Freddie, age 6
>
> HOW CAN A STRANGER TELL IF TWO PEOPLE ARE MARRIED?
> --------------------------------------------------
> "Married people usually look happy to talk to other people."
> Eddie, 6
>
> "You might have to guess, based on whether they seem to be yelling at the
> same kids."
> Derrick, age 8
>
> WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR MOM AND DAD HAVE IN COMMON?
> --------------------------------------------------
> "Both don't want no more kids."
> Lori, age 8
>
> WHAT DO MOST PEOPLE DO ON A DATE?
> ----------------------------------
> "Dates are for having fun, and people should use them to get to know each
> other. Even boys have something to say if you listen long enough.
> Lynnette, age 8.
>
> "On the first date, they just tell each other lies, and that usually gets
> them interested enough to go for a second date."
> Martin, age 10
>
> WHAT WOULD YOU DO ON A FIRST DATE THAT WAS TURNING SOUR?
> --------------------------------------------------------
> "I'd run home and play dead. The next day I would call all the newspapers
> and make sure they wrote about me in all the dead columns."
> Craig, age 9
>
> WHEN IS IT OK TO KISS SOMEONE?
> -------------------------------
> "When they're rich."
> Pam, age 7
>
> "The law says you have to be eighteen, so I wouldn't want to mess with
> that."
> Curt, age 7
>
> "The rule goes like this: if you kiss someone, then you should marry them
> and have kids with them. It's the right thing to do."
> Howard, age 8
>
> IS IT BETTER TO BE SINGLE OR MARRIED?
> --------------------------------------
> "It's better for girls to be single but not for boys. Boys need someone to
> clean up after them."
> Anita, 9
>
> "Single is better, for the simple reason that I wouldn't want to change no
> diapers. Of course, if I did get married, I'd just phone my mother and
> have
> her come over for some coffee and diaper-changing."
> Kirsten, age 10
>
> HOW WOULD THE WORLD BE DIFFERENT IF PEOPLE DIDN'T GET MARRIED?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> "There sure would be a lot of kids to explain, wouldn't there?"
> Kelvin, age 8
>
> "You can be sure of one thing - the boys would come chasing after us just
> the same as they do now."
> Roberta, age 7
>
> HOW WOULD YOU MAKE A MARRIAGE WORK?
> -----------------------------------
> "Tell your wife that she looks pretty even if she looks like a truck."
> Ricky, age 10
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:06:45 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Cape Conference Clips (9/9/99)
EASTERN CAPE RALLY - GRAHAMSTOWN
EVANGELISM IN SOMERSET WEST
NEW RESOURCES
EASTERN CAPE RALLY - GRAHAMSTOWN (Pastor Julian Hibbert)
Last weekend about 150 people from the Eastern Cape made the journey to Grahamstown to enjoy a day of worship and fellowship. There were people from Port Alfred, Bedford, Grahamstown and East London and Port Elizabeth. Pastor Brian Sterley from Helderberg Church was the guest speaker.The Sabbath schools were lively and well attended, and the EL puppet/clown group were very involved in the Primary class. There was some wonderful music arranged by Meg Harebottle and Cheryl Botha which brought praise to God. One of the most wonderful things about this annual meeting is the fact that people get to renew old friendships.
EVANGELISM IN SOMERSET WEST (Alan Parker)
INCREDIBLE DISCOVERIES!
Professor Walter Veith has drawn large crowds and enthusiastic interest
in his Amazing Discoveries Series over the last three weeks. On the
opening night, nearly 460 people packed the Somerset West Town Hall and
came every night to listen to fascinating presentations on health and
science. This week, the series moved venue to the Helderberg College
Church and we expected a dramatic drop in numbers. However, we were
surprised! About three hundred people were at the first presentation
and that number grew to about four hundred last night, with about half
the audience being non-Adventist! Professor Veith has dived right into
the "heavy" topics in this second series, dealing with the Great
Controversy and the Antichrist in his first two lectures. Tonight (9
September) he deals with the change of the Sabbath. Please pray for us
as we continue through this series. We certainly need God's wisdom and
guidance as we continue with these incredible discoveries.
Videos of the Lectures may be ordered from Helga Owen at 8553267 or Fax
8554119. Video tapes are R75-00 each with two lectures on each tape and
audio tapes are R15-00 each with one lecture on each tape.
UPCOMING TOPICS: 7:00 P.M. HELDERBERG COLLEGE CHURCH
Monday 13 September "Two Beasts Become Friends"
Wednesday 15 September "An Advocate for Our Time"
Friday 17 September "The Mystic Realm of Death"
Monday 20 September "The Wine of Babylon"
Wednesday 22 September "The New Age Movement"
Friday 24 September "Gathering the Children"
Saturday 25 September "Charisma of the Spirit"
Monday 27 September "A New Order Arises"
Wednesday 29 September "The New World Order"
Friday 1 October "Signs and Wonders"
Saturday 2 October "History's Coming Climax"
Monday 4 October "The Long Awaited Mellenium"
Wednesday 6 October "A Stone to Rest Your Head"
Friday 8 October "God's Guiding Gift"
Saturday 9 October "The Greatest Invitation"
NEW RESOURCES
A Start-up kit for 2000 Year of Jubilee! Produced by the GC Youth Department. Ideas and suggestions for pastors and youth leaders. 34 pages. Cost R5.10 plus postage
Hope 2000 The Next Millenium workbook. Ideas and suggestions for making your church a door of hope. 124 pages. R24 plus postage
.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 09:01:40 PDT
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Admin
I thank we can call each other anything that we are happy with and are
confortable with. It is fine with me to call someone Dr. Pastor or Paul etc.
Pandelani.
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: [sa-sda] Admin
>Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 12:37:40 -0400
>
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>
>Greetings!
>
>Adventist University on the Web
>Last week I had an opportunity of speaking to an old friend, Ramodise, and
>he told how he has been blest by the discussions on this list. And I would
>like to believe that this has been the experience of many of you. As for
>me, I am just excited to be able to listening to the ideas and views of
>some of the best minds in Adventism. What a privilege! Even some of us who
>are untrained and unseasoned in how to handle the scriptures have an
>opportunity to exchange our humble opinions with those who are highly
>trained in scriptures without the fear of been disrespectful.
>I can clearly see the hand of God leading and guiding us.
>This is indeed an Adventist University on the Web!
>To God be the glory!
>
>What's your name?
>How are we to address each other? I know that among us there are those whom
>we usually refer to as Pastor, Dr, etc. How should we refer to each other
>in the discussions? So far, I have been using a person's first name. What
>do you think? Should we use Brother or Sistah? Or should we just ask people
>to sign whatever they would like to be called?
>
>Masabatha Online (www.masabatha.org)
>I have recently downloaded all the discussions from this list to our Web
>Site. If you are a new member you can go there and read all the previous
>discussions. I will try to update it as frequently as I can.
>If your email account is filling up, you can now delete your mails knowing
>that you will still be able to access the discussions online.
>I am still requesting your sermons, testimonies, humor stories etc.
>
>A thought from SOP
>With His eye upon the church, the Lord has again and again allowed matters
>to come to a crisis, that in their extremity His people should look alone
>for His help. Their prayers, their faith, together with their steadfast
>purpose to be true, have called for the interference of God, and then He
>has fulfilled His promise, "Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall
>answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am" (Isa. 58:9). His
>mighty arm has been stretched out for the deliverance of His people. God
>reserves His gracious interposition in their behalf till the time of their
>extremity; thus He makes their deliverance more marked, and their victories
>more glorious. When all human wisdom fails, the Lord's interference will be
>more clearly recognized, and He will receive the glory that is His due.
>Even the enemies of our faith, persecutors, will perceive that God is
>working for His people in turning their captivity.
>Selected Messages Book 2, page 372
>
>The King is even at the door!
>
>MJ Ravhengani
>SA-SDA/Masabatha Online
>Email : masabatha@yahoo.com
>Web Site: www.masabatha.org
>
>
>
>
>
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 09:13:50 PDT
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: FW: Kids on love and marriage
Bangisi,
That's an interesting reading, I laughed my lungs out. However some of these
observation from kids are serious, they can't be dismissed as "kids says the
darndest things" stuff.
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: [sa-sda] FW: Kids on love and marriage
>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:41:02 +0200
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>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
>
> > HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHOM TO MARRY?
> > -------------------------------
> > "You got to find somebody who likes the same stuff. Like if you like
> > sports,
> > she should like it that you like sports, and she should keep the chips
>and
> > dip coming."
> > Alan, age 10
> >
> > "No person really decides before they grow up who they're going to
>marry.
> > God decides it all way before, and you get to find out later who you're
> > stuck with."
> > Kirsten, age 10
> >
> > WHAT IS THE RIGHT AGE TO GET MARRIED?
> > -------------------------------------
> > "Twenty-three is the best age because you know the person FOREVER by
> > then."
> > Camille, age 10
> >
> > "No age is good to get married at. You got to be a fool to get married."
> > Freddie, age 6
> >
> > HOW CAN A STRANGER TELL IF TWO PEOPLE ARE MARRIED?
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > "Married people usually look happy to talk to other people."
> > Eddie, 6
> >
> > "You might have to guess, based on whether they seem to be yelling at
>the
> > same kids."
> > Derrick, age 8
> >
> > WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR MOM AND DAD HAVE IN COMMON?
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > "Both don't want no more kids."
> > Lori, age 8
> >
> > WHAT DO MOST PEOPLE DO ON A DATE?
> > ----------------------------------
> > "Dates are for having fun, and people should use them to get to know
>each
> > other. Even boys have something to say if you listen long enough.
> > Lynnette, age 8.
> >
> > "On the first date, they just tell each other lies, and that usually
>gets
> > them interested enough to go for a second date."
> > Martin, age 10
> >
> > WHAT WOULD YOU DO ON A FIRST DATE THAT WAS TURNING SOUR?
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > "I'd run home and play dead. The next day I would call all the
>newspapers
> > and make sure they wrote about me in all the dead columns."
> > Craig, age 9
> >
> > WHEN IS IT OK TO KISS SOMEONE?
> > -------------------------------
> > "When they're rich."
> > Pam, age 7
> >
> > "The law says you have to be eighteen, so I wouldn't want to mess with
> > that."
> > Curt, age 7
> >
> > "The rule goes like this: if you kiss someone, then you should marry
>them
> > and have kids with them. It's the right thing to do."
> > Howard, age 8
> >
> > IS IT BETTER TO BE SINGLE OR MARRIED?
> > --------------------------------------
> > "It's better for girls to be single but not for boys. Boys need someone
>to
> > clean up after them."
> > Anita, 9
> >
> > "Single is better, for the simple reason that I wouldn't want to change
>no
> > diapers. Of course, if I did get married, I'd just phone my mother and
> > have
> > her come over for some coffee and diaper-changing."
> > Kirsten, age 10
> >
> > HOW WOULD THE WORLD BE DIFFERENT IF PEOPLE DIDN'T GET MARRIED?
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > "There sure would be a lot of kids to explain, wouldn't there?"
> > Kelvin, age 8
> >
> > "You can be sure of one thing - the boys would come chasing after us
>just
> > the same as they do now."
> > Roberta, age 7
> >
> > HOW WOULD YOU MAKE A MARRIAGE WORK?
> > -----------------------------------
> > "Tell your wife that she looks pretty even if she looks like a truck."
> > Ricky, age 10
>
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>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:00:33 +0200
From: MLAMLI PAPU <papu@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Witchcraft
This witchcraft thing seems to be a "Black thing".
The reason I say this is that I have never heard a non- Black saying he had been bewitched.
I read somewhere that " It is impossible to bewitch a person who does not believe in witchcraft". Note that it don't say a person who believes in God.
Is this really true, or is somebody out there under-estimating the power of the devil?
I think it is not what you don't believe in but who you believe in.
Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.
Mlamli
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:12:58 +0200
From: "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Witchcraft
Mlamli Papu said
This witchcraft thing seems to be a "Black thing".
The reason I say this is that I have never heard a non- Black saying he had been bewitched.
I read somewhere that " It is impossible to bewitch a person who does not believe in witchcraft". Note that it don't say a person who believes in God.
I wonder if it would not be useful to view "this witchcraft thing" from a perspective of the clash or differences between "traditionalism" and "modernism"
With this distinction I don't mean black culture vs. white culture, but two fundamentally different ways of picturing our world.
Modernism has its origin in the Enlightenment (1700) -- a time during which scientists and philosophers reduced their research and their world-view to that which people can see and empirically test. (This is an over-simplification). This science and philosophy denied that there was any mystery in the world. Everything could be understood - and if it could not, it just meant that the right research has not been done -- Today, modernism is very common in the world and millions of people basically reject that there is anything to this world that cannot be seen or empirically tested. With modernism comes all the big words: liberalism, nationalism, democracy, human rights, science and technology, capitalism, missionary movements.
Traditionalism -- comes from days before the modern world. But there are many societies throughout the world who still have a traditionalist world view. (There is for example a remarkable difference between the way that a rural german farmer views the world and a urban german industrialist). Traditionalism tend to see the the world as a mystery. To state this technically: The fabric of reality as such is perceived to be constituted by "dynamistic" power. This is a type of power that cannot be defined in terms of natural law. It is something that is almost unpredictable.
This mysterious power is perceived to give life and health to the community. It flows to the community from past generations. And it gives life to future generations by flowing through current generations. The power is maintained by maintaining stable relationships and following set rituals through the period of your life. (this is the source for ancestor worship in african culture) Particularly during periods of transition - "passage rites" are performed - this is done to maintain the stable life-giving force of the power that makes up reality. Of utmost importance are stable relationships. When relationships become unstable the power becomes dangerous.
In traditionalist society there are people who have a keen sense of this power and believe that they know how to manipulate it. Many of these people do this for the common good of a community. In traditional african culture people will consult a "diviner" to call for rain etc. But there are people who use this power to harm others... they try to disturb this power ... by disturbing relationships... these people are called witches.
Here it might be worth mentioning a very interesting phenomenon. For the Traditionalist, cities are places where relationships are very disturbed and extremely complex. It is very interesting that the African Initiated Churches (AIC's) who currently have more members than any other church in Southern Africa, find their origins most commonly amongst the migrant labourers in cities -- Rural people who find city life to be puzzeling and very complex. One of the most important aspects of AIC's worship is exhorsism. Sociologically this can be interpreted as a "protest" by traditionalist mindsets against the complexities, sacrilege and witchcraft (disturbed relationships) that seems to characterise modernity and city life. AIC's also place a very important emphasis on the gift of prophecy. For them a prophet seems to take on the role of a diviner - somebody who brings peace and tranquility and speaks stability into the unseen forces of this world.
MY PERSONAL OPINION:
I think there is more to this world than the eye can see. (Take the absolutely weird way that atoms react when they are studied at levels of quarks and crieks)(Look at the New AGE 's fascination with mystical spirituality) As Christians we believe that there is a certain sense of mystery in the creation. Even our belief in angels seem to indicate that there is an invisible CREATED REALITY that we are not aware of. Angels and Demons occupy this space, but this invisible space is not necessarily demonic. The space is CREATED by God.
The problem comes when human beings become aware of this "invisible space" and the flow of power and spirit in this space and then equate it with God. That becomes idolatry... worshipping a created reality as though it is God.
I think it is at this level that witchcraft and demon posession is closely related to each other. But I also wonder if it is not at this level that 'exorsisms' can take place even without belief in God. (There is anthropological proof for exorsisms any a great many traditional cultures that have no link to Christianity)
------------------------------
I do think, however, that people who live in the modern world have lost this sense and intimate knowledge of this mysterious world. They just do not experience life in that way. And because they have no way of comprehending life in that way, they are not easily effected by that reality.
But it is interesting that many people who come from highly modernised cities in Europe and settle in Rural africa, report sudden - strong experiences of the "supernatural". This dynamistic power becomes frighteningly real to them. Some describe the experience as one of The devil grabbing you by the throat and choking you.
That sounds very frightening, but fascinating. I think huge studies can be done about semantics and communication of meaning and how this relates to the two cultures.
------------
I don't know if my thoughts are totally confusing ... perhaps also totally off the mark.
If anybody followed through to this point... it might be interesting to hear your thoughts.
Greetings
Weiers
By the way... Witchcraft was a major factor in medieval European history and even in the early history of the United states. Many (innocent) women, and children were killed on account of witchcraft allegations. It is not only a "black" thing.
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:02:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Subject: CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Boyce,
Let me take this time to welcome you back to the family. We missed
you.
Your analytic skills and your emphasis on details always impress me,
as I read your postings it's like watching a brain surgeon remove a
brain tumor.
I appreciate the effort that you have taken to produce this paper on
church discipline. The issues that you have address are issues that
are affecting us all in this age and time.
One thing that I like about this discussion list is that we are able
to disagree in love. Having said that let me go straight to the
point. I strongly disagree (sounds familiar) with your position.
In many of our churches there is a misrepresentation of what church
discipline is all about. You have taken this misrepresented view of
church discipline and build your position on it. There is a major
flaw on the foundation of your position.
CHURCH DISCIPLINE OR CHURCH JUDGEMENT?
Now that I have succeeded in getting everybody’s attention I can
continue.
The subject of your mail says ‘Disfellowship and Church Discipline’
whereas the title of your says ‘THE JUDGES OF THE FLESH!’. The first
line in your paper says, “The subject of discipline in God’s church
is a rather sensitive….” Throughout your document you maintain the
theme of judgement.
Here, lies the major flaw of your position, you seem to use the two
words, discipline and judgement interchangeably. This is the flawed
foundation. The majority of our members make the same mistake, so I
am not surprised. The two actions, discipline and judgement are
worlds apart from each other. It is unfortunate that the word like
discipline which is positive in its meaning can be confused with the
word judgment, which is negative in its intend and purposes. Since
most of our church members do not understand church discipline and
the critical role that it plays in the priesthood of believers, they
despise it and see it as a punishment (the results of judgment).
The dictionary also testifies that the two words do not have similar
or related meanings.
I must make this one thing clear, I do have a problem with church
discipline, however my problem is not with the institution of church
discipline, but with the way in which it is exercised in many of our
churches, I will try to elaborate on this latter.
What is judgement?
From your professional background you can answer this question better
than I can, so I will not attempt.
Judgement results in punishment (if pardon is not an option) for the
guilty party. Punishment is the rewards that the offender deserves.
If you have killed somebody and the law says an eye for and eye, then
you will be killed also.
What is discipline?
I see discipline as a corrective measure that is taken to restore or
bring back the offender. Even more that discipline seeks to uplift
the offender to a higher ground. Unlike judgement, disciple is not a
reward of the persons action even though the level of discipline may
vary (I will deal with this later). Discipline when correctly
administered it is an act of love.
If discipline becomes a punishment then something has gone horribly
wrong.
Can you imagine a father who shoots his son on the head because he
forgot to polish his boots?
Later I will use this parallel of child discipline and church
discipline to illustrate my point.
Does the church (flesh) judge its members?
NO! The Bible says thou shall not judge; only God is the Judge.
What does the church do? The church like a good parent exercises
discipline. Spare the rod and spoil the child, there is a biblical
version in Proverbs. Even God says that those that He loves he
chastises. The role of the church discipline is the same as that of a
good parent; it is to correct, to rebuke and to restore.
I thank my parents for their stern discipline when I was growing up.
If ever it was not for that discipline I won’t be writing this mail
to you. I didn’t like it then, but now I appreciate it.
No one ever disciplines a child by giving him/her extra cookies or
asks the child to choose how to be disciplined nor expect the child
will discipline him/herself.
God has given us many, many object lesson, if only we can just stop
and look/listen we will hear/see the gospel. Yes, church discipline
is not sweet; of course it can’t be sweet and still be discipline.
If the church decides to discipline you instead of trying to point
the sins of others, you need to be grateful that the church/God cares
so much that want to correct them. Blessed is the man/woman who
gets/receives correction!
When the church fails to exercise discipline it does not only fail
God but also the one who broke God’s law.
I know what I am talking about, there is someone who is very close to
me whom the church because of her public status decided not to
discipline her, and till today she is just hanging in limbo, and that
hurts me.
Now, let's look closely at this issue of discipline.
Why selective discipline?
Why discipline a girl who has committed fornication not the elder who
is lusting after the deacon’s wife?
I wonder if this question has any value if discipline is not view as
judgment. Anyway let me continue.
There are many of us who have secret sins, sins that we love so
dearly, sins that the church board will never found out. How luck
(blessed?) we are!
Contrary to the above, I think it is a blessing when your sin comes
into the light.
Having said that we need to understand that to be in good and regular
standing in a local church does not mean your name is in the books of
heaven.
Church discipline does not replace our direct accountability to God.
Church discipline is more than just a way of maintaining a clean
house, it is the gospel. The discipline is an extra fence created to
help those who are weak, of course not everybody is so luck to be
caught by this fence. As much as you give a medicine to those who
look sickly, those who pretend that they are well or whom you don’t
know that they are sick are left out. So, in this case a
"fornicator" is luck to be found out, bad luck to the "luster"! If we
really know Jesus we will be happy when our sins comes to the light,
psalmist says " Search me…."
Why have varying degrees of discipline?
Why Disfellowship brother M and only censure sister K
If we go back to our example of child discipline, if a child spills
milk he might get just a stern warning, but if he insists on coming
back home at 1:00AM a different type of discipline might be
exercised.
So, is church discipline, sometimes it is necessary to send a strong
message of rebuke.
Jesus and the women caught in the act of adultery
What need to understand is that the Jewish leaders were not in the
business of administering church discipline, they were administering
judgement. This is what Law of Moses specified. Jesus came to put an
end to this system. He said let them grow together till the time of
judgement, this was a very revolutionary message.
The differences between discipline and judgement have already been
dealt with above.
My problem with church discipline
As I have said before, my problem is not with the system of church
discipline, but with the way it is administered in many of our
churches. We will always have a problem when unconsecrated men handle
holy things. I believe that if church discipline was exercised with
love its effect will be more positive. Back to the example of the
child discipline, we are told never to discipline children when we
are angry, but exercise discipline in love.
I believe that if we were to discipline people with tears in our eyes
and prayer on our lips those people who disciplined will be won back
to the Lord.
People who fight when they are disciplined.
People who have committed sins that the church feels that they
require church discipline and yet they fight and refuse to be
disciplined only testify that they desperately need church
discipline. If one has truly repented the respond will be, 'whatever
you say Lord I will do'. Spirit of calling lawyers and
representatives and arguing can only come from the devil. It does not
matter that those who are administering have their own sins, the Lord
will take care of them.
Our problem is that the members of our churches have a form of
godliness, yet denying its power.
We can't lower the standards to accommodate the members; the members
must be lifted up to where Christ is.
What's the fuss about disfellowship?
To me, I see it as figurative action not really true to its meaning.
People who are disfellowshed are still allowed to attend church every
Sabbath, and after few months get a privilege of the second baptism.
Where is the fuss? Some people just have big ego's that will stand on
their way to heaven. All they are concerned about is for their names
to be in the books on earth and not concerned about heaven.
Research proves contrary to popular believe, church which have strong
church discipline have high church growth than those with low
standards. Why?
The time is about 2:AM, I think I need to and sleep, see y'all later!
Sound the trumpet, Jesus is coming soon!
Jeremiah
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