Digest 29, originally sent Thu Sep 9 05:27:52 1999
There are 18 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Witchcraft !!
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
2. RE: Re: TC-TOC Merger
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
3. Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
4. RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@xxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
5. Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
6. Re: RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
7. Re: RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
8. Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
9. Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
10. RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
11. Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
12. Re: RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
13. RE: RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
14. Stewardship Bible Study (Church Unity)
From: "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@xxxx.xx.xxx
15. Adventist church in crisis
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
16. Re: Stewardship Bible Study (Church Unity)
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
17. Re: Disfellowship and Church Discipline
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
18. Cape Conference Clips
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 11:27:25 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Witchcraft !!
Tselane and others on witchcraft
Gal. 3:1 "Foolish Galatians who has bewitched you..." Anyone who basis his
salvation on law and not faith is operating under a spell. Anyone who
thinks he can make it without the relationship with Christ is bewitched.
The devil's aim is to separate us from Christ, that is the ultimate aim of
witchcraft. Unfortunately, we can sing and preach until we think that
these acts will save us, this to me is witchcraft.
Nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Tselane Letseli <tletseli@nwpg.org.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Witchcraft !!
>From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@nwpg.org.za>
>
>Machaka,
>
>As a Christian I have always believed that whitchcraft is in a way Satanism
>which has a lot to do with demon possesion. I have also observed that
>people who think they are bewhitched see "things", and often their
>interpretation of events is not practical. Most of them are susceptible to
>demon possession.
>
>Psams 90: 1 says; "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High
>shall abide in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the
>shadow of the Almighty." This means that as long as one is in the presence
>of God, he/she is under His shadow.
>
>A friend once told me that her former colleage who is a Satanist once said
>to her "if Christians new how much Powerful God is, they wouldn't take
>their religion and God lightly. Even Satan does not possess such powers."
>This statement simply shows us that as long as God is protecting us no evil
>powers can befall us. The only method a whitch can manage to harm a
>Christian is through food poisining, but still as John said; "Ye are of
>God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is
>in you, than he that is in the world." 1 John 4: 4.
>
>His protection is with us always.
>
>----------
>> From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Witchcraft !!
>> Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 4:26 AM
>>
>> From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
>>
>> Vusi,
>>
>> I believe so too, but my main concern is whether a Christian can be
>> bewitched. I had a discussion with a friend recently on the matter and
>> he was of the opinion that as much as a child of God can suffer from
>> heart disease or cancer for that matter (which, like the rest of other
>> diseases are from the devil), a Christian can be afflicted by the evil
>> one through witchcraft.
>>
>> I am then confused because I was under the impression or rather believe
>> that when I am with God the devil can do me no harm Job 5:19 He shall
>> deliver you in six troubles, Yes, in seven no evil shall touch you.
>> Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I
>> will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they
>> comfort me.
>> Ps 91:10 No evil shall befall you, Nor shall any plague come near your
>> dwelling;
>>
>> HE IS THE GOOD SHEPHERD
>>
>> --- vusi kaunda <vusi12@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com>
>> >
>> > Machaka,
>> >
>> > I believe witchcraft is one of the principalities of
>> > darkeness the Bible
>> > mentions in the book of Ephesians.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
>> > >Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> > >To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> > >Subject: [sa-sda] Witchcraft !!
>> > >Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:06:41 -0700 (PDT)
>> > >MIME-Version: 1.0
>> > >From errors-265906-198-vusi12 Sun Sep 05 20:07:18
>> > 1999
>> > >Received: from [209.207.164.209] by hotmail.com
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>> > >Mailing-List: list sa-sda@onelist.com; contact
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>> > >
>> > >From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Greetings
>> > >
>> > >I have enjoyed the discussions that we had so far,
>> > quite interesting
>> > >and informative indeed. Thank you all for your
>> > contributions to the
>> > >list.
>> > >
>> > >My question today is, Is there such a thing as
>> > witchcraft? And if there
>> > >is, can a Christian be bewitched?
>> > >
>> > >Millicent
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>> >
>> > Vusi Kaunda
>> > Information Resource Center
>> > US Information Service
>> > Ph 27 11 982 5580
>> > Fx 27 11 982 5844
>> > vusi12@hotmail.com
>> > PO Box 1762
>> > Houghton
>> > 2041
>> > http://www.usia.gov/posts/pretoria
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:43:05 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Re: TC-TOC Merger
Lungani,
I do not understand why you have to apologise because this was the my
interpretation as well. The statement says this is coupled to financial
growth. In fact, it is clear from Weiers Coetzee's analysis that there is a
financial tone attached to advantages of the merger. It is said that the
previously disadvantaged community is moving the upward scale which would
benefit both conferences financially. What this implies is that there is a
reality we cannot escape. Money is also the issue at hand.
My question is therefore why would this money problem form part of the basis
of a united conference?
Lastly, what do you think should the name of new conference be? I want to
suggest the name "Northern Hope Conference", now that there is Southern Hope
Conference. The Kwazulu-Natal Free State Conference(too long) would have to
change to something like Eastern Hope Conference. I wonder who would become
the Western Hope Conference.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lungani Mfeka [mailto:MfekaL@telkom.co.za]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 8:58 AM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: TC-TOC Merger
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Mashudu,
My apologies, my fellow Adventists, I guess I should have given it a
global view instead of looking at just a statement and not make noise
where they are not needed. However, I still wish to discourage some
South African Adventist from their attitude towards the work of God.
Pastor Letseli, my apologies, Sir, for not paying relevant attention
to what you were addressing. I guess I should have addressed the issue
seperately - its just that it has been my frustration since the days
when I was still a pastor. I am sorry, even to you all.
Lungani
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 09/07/99 11:13PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Lungani,
That was a very strong mail, my brother.
I think you might have misunderstood what pastor Letseli was saying. I
didn't understand him to be saying that they set a goal of doubling the
membership in order to meet the demands of the TC, nor that the goal of
doubling the membership was set in order to improve the financial
situation of the conference.
If you look at our news items in Masabatha Online you will realize that
he sent us the same update about two months ago and it was not in the
context of the TC/TOC merger then.
May be the statement "In the interim," might be what lead to the
misunderstanding. My understanding of the TOC position is that they will
focus their energy on evangelism not on the merger. If the TC wants the
merger they are at liberty to contact them, the TOC will stop running
after the TC as they have been doing so far. Another point that I think
pastor Letseli was making was that they are already seeing the fruits of
their new focus. To me this is a testimony of God's faithfulness, that
when we focus on what we have been called to do, He will bless us, not
only spiritually but also with material things. For a number of years
now, the TOC have been freezing many of its plans because of the merger,
e.g. conference plot etc., because of the merger, now that their eyes
are opened God is blessing them. In fact the merger, not evangelism, was
the most important item on the agenda of some of the previous TOC
administrators.
I do agree with you when you say that they are some pastors who are not
serious about their calling, as much as they are some lay members who
are not serious about their calling. As you have pointed out there are
pastors who are greedy for power as much as there are lay members who
are greedy for power.
In all of this I have learnt to be more critical of myself than I am of
a struggling brother/sister, as you have said before, may be I am the
only Christ that he/she will ever see.
It won't be long!
Jeremiah
>>> "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> 09/07 6:45 AM >>>
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Dear Mr President,
You wrote:"In the interim, the TOC Constituency has planned to double
its current
membership [17 359] by the year 2001. This simply means that we have
rolled
our sleeves in order to engage ourselves in rigorous activities that
would
help us realise our goals. We still have townships, villages,
locations,
suburbs where there is no Adventist presence. We are beginning to see
the
signs of the envisaged growth because we have already baptised 939
persons
between 01/11/1998 and 31/03/1999. This numerical growth is also
coupled
with monetary growth."
My interest in this whole passage was not with how you counter
financial challanges you confront when persuing your unity with TC
but
with how you abuse Christ's command :"Go ye therefore ..." I may be
getting this wrongly, but am I right if I interpret it like you have
this target of 34 718 total membership in the TOC for financial
purposes
more than "spreading the word"? I do believe that our motives are not
Godly blessed if this is one of the primary reasons for target you
have
put for your conference. I would even go as far as saying that we
should not even use this as an assumption on our finances - it seems,
to
me, more like the exploitation of either the gospel or poor recruits.
The gospel is not products that has to be sold to convert souls
leading
to the boost of the conference revenue. The gospel is to set souls
free
from sin and the idea that they can do all through themselves and
their
intelligence. It leads humans to realize that all things work best if
God is in the steering wheel of our decision making process in th
boardrooms.
I am mostly embarrassed by how we Adventist motivate ourselves to
preaching the word - especially the clergy. Some of the ministers and
church members would preach for recognition by either the office or by
fellow workers and church members. Other ministers would do this for
promotion to conference office of directorship, management to blame as
well because they do not look at leadership skills when appointing but
how you have been or are working in the field. May be poeple need to
apply for posts in our conferences since we seem to be following a
corporate management system.
When it comes to membership - let us do it for Christ and Christ only.
He will take care of the finances. We have survived till now what,
our
churches are better than they have ever been before, what then can be
the problem, the merger or saving souls? I guess we can also rest
assured that we will never be like the Joneses nor can we will be like
the Petersens. Probably we need to practice the attitude of being
contented.
I am just airing my views meaning not to offend any soul.
God bless.
Lungani
>>> "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com> 09/06/99 08:43AM >>>
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com>
Dear President
The whole problem with this issue, whether you call it merger or unity
is
the lack of proper communication by the TOC and local church
delegation
to
the constituency.
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 05:43:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Jongimpi
You wrote:
>However I would like to know whether according to your understanding
there never is a time when divorce can be >justified. I seem to read
in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to me unfaithfulness
is a biblical ground for >divorce.
My pastor, I know you did expect me to respond. It seems like this
animal called divorce will never leave us alone. I thought we laid it
to rest but its seems like it has more than one lives.
I think it is good that this animal has come back again because up to
so far we have never discussed this topic based on what the Bible
says. Now lets listen to what the Bible says and I hope this will lay
this deadly animal to rest.
Lets start with the verse that you have quoted, Matt 19:3-10, NKJV
The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is
it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?" 4 And
He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made
[them] at the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 "and said,
'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be
joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "So then,
they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined
together, let not man separate." 7 They said to Him, "Why then did
Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?"
8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts,
permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was
not so. 9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for
sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever
marries her who is divorced commits adultery." 10 His disciples said
to Him, "If such is the case of the man with [his] wife, it is better
not to marry."
The question was: "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for
[just] any reason?"
Lets look at this very carefully, in other words, can I divorce for
just any reason, REMEMBER ANY REASON INCLUDES ADULTERY! This is very
important to note; this was the first question asked and now lets
listen to the respond. " Have you not read that He who made [them] at
the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 "and said, 'For this
reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his
wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "So then, they are no
longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let
not man separate."
Let no man separate FOR ANY REASON (including adultery) that which
God has joined together. That's exactly what Jesus is saying. That
the respond that Jesus gave to question of whether we should divorce
or not. And I believe that since He does not change that is the
respond that He still gives today. Let no man separate FOR ANY REASON
(including adultery) that which God has joined together!
Now lets look at the SECOND question. The Bible is very clear. I love
the Bible!
The second question says: Why then did Moses command to give a
certificate of divorce, and to put her away?
And here is Jesus reply, "Moses, because of the hardness of your
hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning
it was not so."
This is Jesus respond to the second question. Jesus is saying as much
as it was not God's plan for you to have kings, and God allowed it
because of the hardness of your hearts, divorce FOR ANY REASON is not
the plan of God.
Lets stop here for a moment and note that it is a dangerous thing to
go against God's plan, divorce and the Israel's monarchy testifies to
this.
We don’t have time to go and look at Moses statement on divorce but I
would like to say that Moses neither condoned or allowed divorce. The
Israelites were divorcing their wives without the permission of
Moses, and this divorced women were looked upon by people as
prostitutes, so Moses said to these heart-hardened men that when you
send your wife away give them a letter that will testify that they
were married and were divorce. This certificate will grant then
similar benefits and status like the widows. Of course like any other
thing this certificate was abused. I believe that this abuse still
continue even today, instead of using the certificate, we abuse Matt
19:9
Now lets look at Matt 19:99, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his
wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits
adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
Now, let's let the Bible speak for itself, what is Jesus addressing?
Is he addressing divorce? No, or at least that is not the gist of
this statement. I see this statement to be addressing adultery more
that divorce. As much as a man who looks at a woman in a lustful way
commits adultery, I man who DIVORCES HIS WIFE AND MARRIES ANOTHER for
any reason other than sexual immorality is committing adultery.
Even if we were to go along with those who say He is addressing
divorce, we will still be wrong, for he has to be addressing DIVORCE
AND REMARRIAGE, not just divorce.
The Bible does not says that if your wife commits adultery then
divorce her, the Bible will be contradicting itself, for God hates
divorce! Yes he does!
I hope this is very clear.
What is even more interesting is the response of the disciples. Have
you ever wondered why they said it is better not to marry? It is
because they realized that marriage is not as they thought it was.
It is also important for us to note that only Matthew has added this
clause, Luke and Mark do not have it even though they address the
same subject. And let remember that the book of Matthew was written
for the Jews.
This what Mark says: Mark 10:11-12
11 So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another
commits adultery against her. 12 "And if a woman divorces her husband
and marries another, she commits adultery."
I wish I had time to go on, but I hope that this will redirect this
debate back to the Bible.
Let's let the Bible speak!
Jeremiah
--- Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> Boyce I read your input with keen interest. I must say it is a
> blessing to have people of your calibre in these discussions.
>
> However I would like to know whether according to your
> understanding there never is a time when divorce can be justified.
> I seem to read in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to
> me unfaithfulness is a biblical ground for divorce.
>
> I Know I am going to be bombarded by the statement, "God hates
> divorce". I want to thank my colleagues in advance for this
> reminder. But why does God hate divorce? Is that the only
> thing HE hates. What if one divorces in spite of the fact that He
> hates it? One of the reasons why God hates divorce is that, it
> breaks or interrupts the lesson God wants us to give us concerning
> his relationship to us. God's covenant with His church is
> patterned after the marriage relationship, the church is the woman,
> the wife of Christ. God hates divorce, for God sent Jesus to die
> for the church because he would not divorce her, in spite of her
> sinfulness.
>
> But there are instances in the OT, where God admits that the only
> way of helping Israel is to divorce her, and this was done because
> of her unfaithfulness, by falling in love with other gods. Israel
> as a Nation was finally divorced by God because of her refusal to
> be faithful.
>
> God does not only hate divorce, He does not approve of it. As
> SDA's we believe that if one divorces on grounds that are not
> biblical, he remains married in the sight of God, and as such
> whoever marries him, commits adultery, as long as the divorced
> partner is still alive. Sometimes separation can bring a healing
> to a dying relationship, Jerry prefers to call it "cooling off",
> which to my mind can be permanent,for as long as the cause of the
> cooling off is still hot, one has to continue cooling off, to a
> point where he can freeze.
>
> I am sure many will disagree with me on the above, but at least we
> can agree on the point that, divorce is not an unpardonable sin,
> and that God hates unfaithfulness and abuse which often leads to
> divorce which he also hates. Let us not limit God only to the
> result, He hates the cause also.
>
> Lastly, I believe in forgiveness, but the way I understand it is
> that, a wife can divorce her husband and still forgive him, and
> she can forgive her husband but still divorce him.
>
> Having said the above, I am sure some of the pastors will want to
> rebaptize me.
>
> Love at Home
>
> Jongimpi married to Nomthandazo.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:22 PM
> Subject: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
>
>
> Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared
> due to technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be
> back. Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely,
> whether it will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and
> allocate a specific period to it or whatever yardstick before
> moving on to the next topic. I say so because, I was battling to
> choose which subject I must respond to, divorce or TC/TOC merger,
> both interesting subjects. This will enable us to at least have
> our site manager summarise the key points or issues arising out of
> each subject for future use at the conclusion of each debate,
> although we know, there may be fresh information in future on the
> same subject that members may wish to share. Perhaps, a point to
> ponder upon.
>
> Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
>
> I have listened with interest to the various submissions and
> theories on the causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is
> necessary to engage in a somewhat fishing expidition trying to
> ascertain or identify a grocery list of items or elements that
> cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to determine whether the
> means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly is whether or
> not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective of the
> circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to
> submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the
> inability of spouses to reconcile their different positions and
> therefore their subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is
> deliberately loosened.
>
> In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of
> divorce if and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down
> with no prospect of resuming a normal marriage relationship between
> the spouses. What causes the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage
> is of course a material factor in determining whether or not there
> exists a ground for the annulment of a marriage. But more
> importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor has led to
> the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore,
> is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are
> still capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled,
> divorce may not be granted.
>
> This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you
> want to spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with
> God could be regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of
> the Eden fall. All that needed to happen was a decree of divorce
> that would condemn humanity to eternal death as promised. However,
> Christ reconciled Himself to us and us to Him through His death and
> therefore the marriage was saved. If the marriage with Christ
> could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for any other
> marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was
> disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a
> terribly grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we
> supposed to emulate Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
>
> In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be
> able to trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this?
> Perhaps true. When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening,
> the thought rings, it could be a meeting with that man with whom
> she committed adultery. So trust becomes an issue and the question
> is whether one can remain in a relationship where fear is the order
> of the day.
>
> I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of
> utmost adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about
> convenience but also does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We
> acknowledge this when we vow and make our commitment to stay
> together till death do us part. I say yes because it was not
> convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans, endure
> the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was
> not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept
> that marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The
> degrees may differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If
> Christ could at the verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive
> them, for they know not what they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt
> is capable of being forgiven. If Stephan could say the similar
> words while bleeding from stone cuts, then humanity can still
> forgive.
>
> This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the
> Master Forgiver is capable of doing it through us. We may not be
> capable of enduring the humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the
> stigma attached thereto, but Hosea could do it through Him who is
> able to do immeasurably more than all of use could imagine.
>
> So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages
> high. It depends whether you allow the cup to pass or you say
> Lord, let not my will be done by Thine. You see religion is not a
> joke. It is a paradox and the more one is able to stay on the
> right side of the paradox, the better his/her Christian life
> becomes.
>
> I have spoken for long.....food for thought
>
>
> Boyce Mkhize
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:23:14 +0200
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@xxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Jerry,
I can't help noticing that your latest response has some striking
similarities to the thesis by Dr. Sam Bacchiochi (sic) on Divorce and
Remarriage. I believe you directed our attention to this when we first
started discussing divorce.
I downloaded the chapter on Divorce and Remarriage and I would like to
strongly recommend it to those of you out there who can get hold of it.
Jerry, maybe you can make it available to all. In my opinion it puts the
subject of divorce for a Christian in proper perspective. Maybe then we can
move on to other things and make both Boyce and Daniel happy. Quite frankly,
I agree with Boyce. The housekeeping on the list leaves a lot to be desired.
Even so, Lord Jesus, come!
Ramodise
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 14:44
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Jongimpi
You wrote:
>However I would like to know whether according to your understanding
there never is a time when divorce can be >justified. I seem to read
in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to me unfaithfulness
is a biblical ground for >divorce.
My pastor, I know you did expect me to respond. It seems like this
animal called divorce will never leave us alone. I thought we laid it
to rest but its seems like it has more than one lives.
I think it is good that this animal has come back again because up to
so far we have never discussed this topic based on what the Bible
says. Now lets listen to what the Bible says and I hope this will lay
this deadly animal to rest.
Lets start with the verse that you have quoted, Matt 19:3-10, NKJV
The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is
it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?" 4 And
He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made
[them] at the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 "and said,
'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be
joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "So then,
they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined
together, let not man separate." 7 They said to Him, "Why then did
Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?"
8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts,
permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was
not so. 9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for
sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever
marries her who is divorced commits adultery." 10 His disciples said
to Him, "If such is the case of the man with [his] wife, it is better
not to marry."
The question was: "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for
[just] any reason?"
Lets look at this very carefully, in other words, can I divorce for
just any reason, REMEMBER ANY REASON INCLUDES ADULTERY! This is very
important to note; this was the first question asked and now lets
listen to the respond. " Have you not read that He who made [them] at
the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 "and said, 'For this
reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his
wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "So then, they are no
longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let
not man separate."
Let no man separate FOR ANY REASON (including adultery) that which
God has joined together. That's exactly what Jesus is saying. That
the respond that Jesus gave to question of whether we should divorce
or not. And I believe that since He does not change that is the
respond that He still gives today. Let no man separate FOR ANY REASON
(including adultery) that which God has joined together!
Now lets look at the SECOND question. The Bible is very clear. I love
the Bible!
The second question says: Why then did Moses command to give a
certificate of divorce, and to put her away?
And here is Jesus reply, "Moses, because of the hardness of your
hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning
it was not so."
This is Jesus respond to the second question. Jesus is saying as much
as it was not God's plan for you to have kings, and God allowed it
because of the hardness of your hearts, divorce FOR ANY REASON is not
the plan of God.
Lets stop here for a moment and note that it is a dangerous thing to
go against God's plan, divorce and the Israel's monarchy testifies to
this.
We don't have time to go and look at Moses statement on divorce but I
would like to say that Moses neither condoned or allowed divorce. The
Israelites were divorcing their wives without the permission of
Moses, and this divorced women were looked upon by people as
prostitutes, so Moses said to these heart-hardened men that when you
send your wife away give them a letter that will testify that they
were married and were divorce. This certificate will grant then
similar benefits and status like the widows. Of course like any other
thing this certificate was abused. I believe that this abuse still
continue even today, instead of using the certificate, we abuse Matt
19:9
Now lets look at Matt 19:99, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his
wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits
adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
Now, let's let the Bible speak for itself, what is Jesus addressing?
Is he addressing divorce? No, or at least that is not the gist of
this statement. I see this statement to be addressing adultery more
that divorce. As much as a man who looks at a woman in a lustful way
commits adultery, I man who DIVORCES HIS WIFE AND MARRIES ANOTHER for
any reason other than sexual immorality is committing adultery.
Even if we were to go along with those who say He is addressing
divorce, we will still be wrong, for he has to be addressing DIVORCE
AND REMARRIAGE, not just divorce.
The Bible does not says that if your wife commits adultery then
divorce her, the Bible will be contradicting itself, for God hates
divorce! Yes he does!
I hope this is very clear.
What is even more interesting is the response of the disciples. Have
you ever wondered why they said it is better not to marry? It is
because they realized that marriage is not as they thought it was.
It is also important for us to note that only Matthew has added this
clause, Luke and Mark do not have it even though they address the
same subject. And let remember that the book of Matthew was written
for the Jews.
This what Mark says: Mark 10:11-12
11 So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another
commits adultery against her. 12 "And if a woman divorces her husband
and marries another, she commits adultery."
I wish I had time to go on, but I hope that this will redirect this
debate back to the Bible.
Let's let the Bible speak!
Jeremiah
--- Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> Boyce I read your input with keen interest. I must say it is a
> blessing to have people of your calibre in these discussions.
>
> However I would like to know whether according to your
> understanding there never is a time when divorce can be justified.
> I seem to read in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to
> me unfaithfulness is a biblical ground for divorce.
>
> I Know I am going to be bombarded by the statement, "God hates
> divorce". I want to thank my colleagues in advance for this
> reminder. But why does God hate divorce? Is that the only
> thing HE hates. What if one divorces in spite of the fact that He
> hates it? One of the reasons why God hates divorce is that, it
> breaks or interrupts the lesson God wants us to give us concerning
> his relationship to us. God's covenant with His church is
> patterned after the marriage relationship, the church is the woman,
> the wife of Christ. God hates divorce, for God sent Jesus to die
> for the church because he would not divorce her, in spite of her
> sinfulness.
>
> But there are instances in the OT, where God admits that the only
> way of helping Israel is to divorce her, and this was done because
> of her unfaithfulness, by falling in love with other gods. Israel
> as a Nation was finally divorced by God because of her refusal to
> be faithful.
>
> God does not only hate divorce, He does not approve of it. As
> SDA's we believe that if one divorces on grounds that are not
> biblical, he remains married in the sight of God, and as such
> whoever marries him, commits adultery, as long as the divorced
> partner is still alive. Sometimes separation can bring a healing
> to a dying relationship, Jerry prefers to call it "cooling off",
> which to my mind can be permanent,for as long as the cause of the
> cooling off is still hot, one has to continue cooling off, to a
> point where he can freeze.
>
> I am sure many will disagree with me on the above, but at least we
> can agree on the point that, divorce is not an unpardonable sin,
> and that God hates unfaithfulness and abuse which often leads to
> divorce which he also hates. Let us not limit God only to the
> result, He hates the cause also.
>
> Lastly, I believe in forgiveness, but the way I understand it is
> that, a wife can divorce her husband and still forgive him, and
> she can forgive her husband but still divorce him.
>
> Having said the above, I am sure some of the pastors will want to
> rebaptize me.
>
> Love at Home
>
> Jongimpi married to Nomthandazo.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:22 PM
> Subject: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
>
>
> Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared
> due to technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be
> back. Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely,
> whether it will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and
> allocate a specific period to it or whatever yardstick before
> moving on to the next topic. I say so because, I was battling to
> choose which subject I must respond to, divorce or TC/TOC merger,
> both interesting subjects. This will enable us to at least have
> our site manager summarise the key points or issues arising out of
> each subject for future use at the conclusion of each debate,
> although we know, there may be fresh information in future on the
> same subject that members may wish to share. Perhaps, a point to
> ponder upon.
>
> Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
>
> I have listened with interest to the various submissions and
> theories on the causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is
> necessary to engage in a somewhat fishing expidition trying to
> ascertain or identify a grocery list of items or elements that
> cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to determine whether the
> means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly is whether or
> not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective of the
> circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to
> submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the
> inability of spouses to reconcile their different positions and
> therefore their subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is
> deliberately loosened.
>
> In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of
> divorce if and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down
> with no prospect of resuming a normal marriage relationship between
> the spouses. What causes the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage
> is of course a material factor in determining whether or not there
> exists a ground for the annulment of a marriage. But more
> importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor has led to
> the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore,
> is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are
> still capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled,
> divorce may not be granted.
>
> This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you
> want to spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with
> God could be regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of
> the Eden fall. All that needed to happen was a decree of divorce
> that would condemn humanity to eternal death as promised. However,
> Christ reconciled Himself to us and us to Him through His death and
> therefore the marriage was saved. If the marriage with Christ
> could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for any other
> marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was
> disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a
> terribly grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we
> supposed to emulate Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
>
> In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be
> able to trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this?
> Perhaps true. When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening,
> the thought rings, it could be a meeting with that man with whom
> she committed adultery. So trust becomes an issue and the question
> is whether one can remain in a relationship where fear is the order
> of the day.
>
> I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of
> utmost adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about
> convenience but also does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We
> acknowledge this when we vow and make our commitment to stay
> together till death do us part. I say yes because it was not
> convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans, endure
> the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was
> not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept
> that marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The
> degrees may differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If
> Christ could at the verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive
> them, for they know not what they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt
> is capable of being forgiven. If Stephan could say the similar
> words while bleeding from stone cuts, then humanity can still
> forgive.
>
> This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the
> Master Forgiver is capable of doing it through us. We may not be
> capable of enduring the humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the
> stigma attached thereto, but Hosea could do it through Him who is
> able to do immeasurably more than all of use could imagine.
>
> So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages
> high. It depends whether you allow the cup to pass or you say
> Lord, let not my will be done by Thine. You see religion is not a
> joke. It is a paradox and the more one is able to stay on the
> right side of the paradox, the better his/her Christian life
> becomes.
>
> I have spoken for long.....food for thought
>
>
> Boyce Mkhize
>
__________________________________________________
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:39:32 -0700
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Bhut' Jongimpi
Thank you for your input. I certainly read it with excitement. I also noted Nikelo's contribution in this regard and it is also pertinent and relevant to the issue at hand. My input may inadvertently have created an impression that divorce is not justifiable under any circumstances. Why do I create this impression?
You see, the causes of divorce, as you correctly put it, also constitute sin and and therefore warrant God's attention when He deals with sin. If we investigate the causes of divorce, you will discover that the common element is the lack of love. The fundamental question therefore is when does love begin to lack? Secondly, can love really lack? I am tempted to think that a divorce is a manifestation that there was never love and therefore no marriage which means there technically was no marriage right in the beginning. I take it that the substance and foundation of any marriage is love and love is like described in the book of Corinthians. I am asking therefore : if there was no foundation can we talk of the roof? Can we talk of a divorce where there was never a marriage because the essential and indispensable ingredient of such a relationship was missing. Is love circumstantial? I submit love remains even after going through fire. However, I am not saying, abusers, unfaithful and dishonest spouses are correct. Their punishment is awaiting them if they fail to confess and depart from their wrongdoing. In effect, the person that becomes dishonest, unfaithful and abusive manifests his/her lack of love ----our foundation. When the situation becomes intolerable for the other innocent party, he/she quits the relationship which had no foundation.
Perhaps, God is saying, do not even get into a relationship when you lack the necessary foundation to retain and maintain it. In shying away from getting into a relationship when you have no love, you are effectively dealing or safeguarding the end ----the permanent adherence to your partner. Divorce, therefore to me, is not the end-result but the very inappropriate beginning which leads to calamity.
He is coming soon.
Cheers for now
Boyce - Beaulah's boyfriend
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Boyce I read your input with keen interest. I must say it is a blessing to have people of your calibre in these discussions.
However I would like to know whether according to your understanding there never is a time when divorce can be justified. I seem to read in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to me unfaithfulness is a biblical ground for divorce.
I Know I am going to be bombarded by the statement, "God hates divorce". I want to thank my colleagues in advance for this reminder. But why does God hate divorce? Is that the only thing HE hates. What if one divorces in spite of the fact that He hates it? One of the reasons why God hates divorce is that, it breaks or interrupts the lesson God wants us to give us concerning his relationship to us. God's covenant with His church is patterned after the marriage relationship, the church is the woman, the wife of Christ. God hates divorce, for God sent Jesus to die for the church because he would not divorce her, in spite of her sinfulness.
But there are instances in the OT, where God admits that the only way of helping Israel is to divorce her, and this was done because of her unfaithfulness, by falling in love with other gods. Israel as a Nation was finally divorced by God because of her refusal to be faithful.
God does not only hate divorce, He does not approve of it. As SDA's we believe that if one divorces on grounds that are not biblical, he remains married in the sight of God, and as such whoever marries him, commits adultery, as long as the divorced partner is still alive. Sometimes separation can bring a healing to a dying relationship, Jerry prefers to call it "cooling off", which to my mind can be permanent,for as long as the cause of the cooling off is still hot, one has to continue cooling off, to a point where he can freeze.
I am sure many will disagree with me on the above, but at least we can agree on the point that, divorce is not an unpardonable sin, and that God hates unfaithfulness and abuse which often leads to divorce which he also hates. Let us not limit God only to the result, He hates the cause also.
Lastly, I believe in forgiveness, but the way I understand it is that, a wife can divorce her husband and still forgive him, and she can forgive her husband but still divorce him.
Having said the above, I am sure some of the pastors will want to rebaptize me.
Love at Home
Jongimpi married to Nomthandazo.
-----Original Message-----
From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:22 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared due to technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be back. Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely, whether it will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and allocate a specific period to it or whatever yardstick before moving on to the next topic. I say so because, I was battling to choose which subject I must respond to, divorce or TC/TOC merger, both interesting subjects. This will enable us to at least have our site manager summarise the key points or issues arising out of each subject for future use at the conclusion of each debate, although we know, there may be fresh information in future on the same subject that members may wish to share. Perhaps, a point to ponder upon.
Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
I have listened with interest to the various submissions and theories on the causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is necessary to engage in a somewhat fishing expidition trying to ascertain or identify a grocery list of items or elements that cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to determine whether the means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly is whether or not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective of the circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the inability of spouses to reconcile their different positions and therefore their subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is deliberately loosened.
In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of divorce if and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down with no prospect of resuming a normal marriage relationship between the spouses. What causes the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage is of course a material factor in determining whether or not there exists a ground for the annulment of a marriage. But more importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor has led to the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore, is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are still capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled, divorce may not be granted.
This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you want to spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with God could be regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of the Eden fall. All that needed to happen was a decree of divorce that would condemn humanity to eternal death as promised. However, Christ reconciled Himself to us and us to Him through His death and therefore the marriage was saved. If the marriage with Christ could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for any other marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a terribly grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we supposed to emulate Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be able to trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this? Perhaps true. When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening, the thought rings, it could be a meeting with that man with whom she committed adultery. So trust becomes an issue and the question is whether one can remain in a relationship where fear is the order of the day.
I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of utmost adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about convenience but also does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We acknowledge this when we vow and make our commitment to stay together till death do us part. I say yes because it was not convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans, endure the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept that marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The degrees may differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If Christ could at the verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt is capable of being forgiven. If Stephan could say the similar words while bleeding from stone cuts, then humanity can still forgive.
This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the Master Forgiver is capable of doing it through us. We may not be capable of enduring the humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the stigma attached thereto, but Hosea could do it through Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all of use could imagine.
So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages high. It depends whether you allow the cup to pass or you say Lord, let not my will be done by Thine. You see religion is not a joke. It is a paradox and the more one is able to stay on the right side of the paradox, the better his/her Christian life becomes.
I have spoken for long.....food for thought
Boyce Mkhize
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:46:30 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Ramodise,
You are right; my presentation was inspired by Dr. Sam Bacchiochi book, the Marriage Covenant, which I recommended at the beginning of this debate.
For those who recently joined us, here is the URL where you can read more on this subject.
http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/marriage/
Jesus is coming soon! Are you ready?
Jeremiah
>>> Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za> 09/08 9:23 AM >>>
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
Jerry,
I can't help noticing that your latest response has some striking
similarities to the thesis by Dr. Sam Bacchiochi (sic) on Divorce and
Remarriage. I believe you directed our attention to this when we first
started discussing divorce.
I downloaded the chapter on Divorce and Remarriage and I would like to
strongly recommend it to those of you out there who can get hold of it.
Jerry, maybe you can make it available to all. In my opinion it puts the
subject of divorce for a Christian in proper perspective. Maybe then we can
move on to other things and make both Boyce and Daniel happy. Quite frankly,
I agree with Boyce. The housekeeping on the list leaves a lot to be desired.
Even so, Lord Jesus, come!
Ramodise
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:58:25 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Ramodise,
You are right; my presentation was inspired by Dr. Sam Bacchiochi book, the Marriage Covenant, which I recommended at the beginning of this debate.
For those who recently joined us, here is the URL where you can read more on this subject.
http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/marriage/
Jesus is coming soon! Are you ready?
Jeremiah
>>> Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za> 09/08 9:23 AM >>>
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
Jerry,
I can't help noticing that your latest response has some striking
similarities to the thesis by Dr. Sam Bacchiochi (sic) on Divorce and
Remarriage. I believe you directed our attention to this when we first
started discussing divorce.
I downloaded the chapter on Divorce and Remarriage and I would like to
strongly recommend it to those of you out there who can get hold of it.
Jerry, maybe you can make it available to all. In my opinion it puts the
subject of divorce for a Christian in proper perspective. Maybe then we can
move on to other things and make both Boyce and Daniel happy. Quite frankly,
I agree with Boyce. The housekeeping on the list leaves a lot to be desired.
Even so, Lord Jesus, come!
Ramodise
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 15:55:45 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Mashudu
I thought the animal was dead, somebody resurrected, now that it is alive,
let us see if we can skin, and this time we will skin it alive.
Your understanding of Matt. 19 is enlightening, I am sure if you had enough
time, you would still go on and explain the issue in detail. There is one
person who thinks that you guys have time to write, that is all I will say.
I am sure this is one of the issues we need to submit to the GC,next year
for consideration, for your church directly contradicts your position. (See
your Manual on the topic Divorce and Remarriage. Your SDA Bible Commentary
seems to disagree with your position. Ellen G White, "Thoughts from the
Mount of blessing, from the little she wrote, seems not to be in harmony
with your position.
You ask why the disciples thought it was better not to marry? Maybe, they
saw that there will be no way of escape once they get married. For which
woman would commit adultery, if that is the only acceptable reason for
adultery. Adultery was punishable by death and not divorce. Remember here
we have a group of men, they were the ones who had a problem and not the
wives. All we hear about the women is that they brought their children to
Jesus to be blessed, for they could see that their husbands are looking for
ways to dump them.
I might still be wrong, but I LOVE THE BIBLE.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Jongimpi
You wrote:
>However I would like to know whether according to your understanding
there never is a time when divorce can be >justified. I seem to read
in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to me unfaithfulness
is a biblical ground for >divorce.
My pastor, I know you did expect me to respond. It seems like this
animal called divorce will never leave us alone. I thought we laid it
to rest but its seems like it has more than one lives.
I think it is good that this animal has come back again because up to
so far we have never discussed this topic based on what the Bible
says. Now lets listen to what the Bible says and I hope this will lay
this deadly animal to rest.
Lets start with the verse that you have quoted, Matt 19:3-10, NKJV
The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is
it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?" 4 And
He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made
[them] at the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 "and said,
'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be
joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "So then,
they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined
together, let not man separate." 7 They said to Him, "Why then did
Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?"
8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts,
permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was
not so. 9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for
sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever
marries her who is divorced commits adultery." 10 His disciples said
to Him, "If such is the case of the man with [his] wife, it is better
not to marry."
The question was: "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for
[just] any reason?"
Lets look at this very carefully, in other words, can I divorce for
just any reason, REMEMBER ANY REASON INCLUDES ADULTERY! This is very
important to note; this was the first question asked and now lets
listen to the respond. " Have you not read that He who made [them] at
the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 "and said, 'For this
reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his
wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "So then, they are no
longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let
not man separate."
Let no man separate FOR ANY REASON (including adultery) that which
God has joined together. That's exactly what Jesus is saying. That
the respond that Jesus gave to question of whether we should divorce
or not. And I believe that since He does not change that is the
respond that He still gives today. Let no man separate FOR ANY REASON
(including adultery) that which God has joined together!
Now lets look at the SECOND question. The Bible is very clear. I love
the Bible!
The second question says: Why then did Moses command to give a
certificate of divorce, and to put her away?
And here is Jesus reply, "Moses, because of the hardness of your
hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning
it was not so."
This is Jesus respond to the second question. Jesus is saying as much
as it was not God's plan for you to have kings, and God allowed it
because of the hardness of your hearts, divorce FOR ANY REASON is not
the plan of God.
Lets stop here for a moment and note that it is a dangerous thing to
go against God's plan, divorce and the Israel's monarchy testifies to
this.
We don’t have time to go and look at Moses statement on divorce but I
would like to say that Moses neither condoned or allowed divorce. The
Israelites were divorcing their wives without the permission of
Moses, and this divorced women were looked upon by people as
prostitutes, so Moses said to these heart-hardened men that when you
send your wife away give them a letter that will testify that they
were married and were divorce. This certificate will grant then
similar benefits and status like the widows. Of course like any other
thing this certificate was abused. I believe that this abuse still
continue even today, instead of using the certificate, we abuse Matt
19:9
Now lets look at Matt 19:99, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his
wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits
adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
Now, let's let the Bible speak for itself, what is Jesus addressing?
Is he addressing divorce? No, or at least that is not the gist of
this statement. I see this statement to be addressing adultery more
that divorce. As much as a man who looks at a woman in a lustful way
commits adultery, I man who DIVORCES HIS WIFE AND MARRIES ANOTHER for
any reason other than sexual immorality is committing adultery.
Even if we were to go along with those who say He is addressing
divorce, we will still be wrong, for he has to be addressing DIVORCE
AND REMARRIAGE, not just divorce.
The Bible does not says that if your wife commits adultery then
divorce her, the Bible will be contradicting itself, for God hates
divorce! Yes he does!
I hope this is very clear.
What is even more interesting is the response of the disciples. Have
you ever wondered why they said it is better not to marry? It is
because they realized that marriage is not as they thought it was.
It is also important for us to note that only Matthew has added this
clause, Luke and Mark do not have it even though they address the
same subject. And let remember that the book of Matthew was written
for the Jews.
This what Mark says: Mark 10:11-12
11 So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another
commits adultery against her. 12 "And if a woman divorces her husband
and marries another, she commits adultery."
I wish I had time to go on, but I hope that this will redirect this
debate back to the Bible.
Let's let the Bible speak!
Jeremiah
--- Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> Boyce I read your input with keen interest. I must say it is a
> blessing to have people of your calibre in these discussions.
>
> However I would like to know whether according to your
> understanding there never is a time when divorce can be justified.
> I seem to read in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to
> me unfaithfulness is a biblical ground for divorce.
>
> I Know I am going to be bombarded by the statement, "God hates
> divorce". I want to thank my colleagues in advance for this
> reminder. But why does God hate divorce? Is that the only
> thing HE hates. What if one divorces in spite of the fact that He
> hates it? One of the reasons why God hates divorce is that, it
> breaks or interrupts the lesson God wants us to give us concerning
> his relationship to us. God's covenant with His church is
> patterned after the marriage relationship, the church is the woman,
> the wife of Christ. God hates divorce, for God sent Jesus to die
> for the church because he would not divorce her, in spite of her
> sinfulness.
>
> But there are instances in the OT, where God admits that the only
> way of helping Israel is to divorce her, and this was done because
> of her unfaithfulness, by falling in love with other gods. Israel
> as a Nation was finally divorced by God because of her refusal to
> be faithful.
>
> God does not only hate divorce, He does not approve of it. As
> SDA's we believe that if one divorces on grounds that are not
> biblical, he remains married in the sight of God, and as such
> whoever marries him, commits adultery, as long as the divorced
> partner is still alive. Sometimes separation can bring a healing
> to a dying relationship, Jerry prefers to call it "cooling off",
> which to my mind can be permanent,for as long as the cause of the
> cooling off is still hot, one has to continue cooling off, to a
> point where he can freeze.
>
> I am sure many will disagree with me on the above, but at least we
> can agree on the point that, divorce is not an unpardonable sin,
> and that God hates unfaithfulness and abuse which often leads to
> divorce which he also hates. Let us not limit God only to the
> result, He hates the cause also.
>
> Lastly, I believe in forgiveness, but the way I understand it is
> that, a wife can divorce her husband and still forgive him, and
> she can forgive her husband but still divorce him.
>
> Having said the above, I am sure some of the pastors will want to
> rebaptize me.
>
> Love at Home
>
> Jongimpi married to Nomthandazo.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:22 PM
> Subject: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
>
>
> Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared
> due to technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be
> back. Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely,
> whether it will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and
> allocate a specific period to it or whatever yardstick before
> moving on to the next topic. I say so because, I was battling to
> choose which subject I must respond to, divorce or TC/TOC merger,
> both interesting subjects. This will enable us to at least have
> our site manager summarise the key points or issues arising out of
> each subject for future use at the conclusion of each debate,
> although we know, there may be fresh information in future on the
> same subject that members may wish to share. Perhaps, a point to
> ponder upon.
>
> Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
>
> I have listened with interest to the various submissions and
> theories on the causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is
> necessary to engage in a somewhat fishing expidition trying to
> ascertain or identify a grocery list of items or elements that
> cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to determine whether the
> means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly is whether or
> not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective of the
> circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to
> submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the
> inability of spouses to reconcile their different positions and
> therefore their subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is
> deliberately loosened.
>
> In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of
> divorce if and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down
> with no prospect of resuming a normal marriage relationship between
> the spouses. What causes the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage
> is of course a material factor in determining whether or not there
> exists a ground for the annulment of a marriage. But more
> importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor has led to
> the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore,
> is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are
> still capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled,
> divorce may not be granted.
>
> This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you
> want to spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with
> God could be regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of
> the Eden fall. All that needed to happen was a decree of divorce
> that would condemn humanity to eternal death as promised. However,
> Christ reconciled Himself to us and us to Him through His death and
> therefore the marriage was saved. If the marriage with Christ
> could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for any other
> marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was
> disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a
> terribly grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we
> supposed to emulate Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
>
> In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be
> able to trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this?
> Perhaps true. When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening,
> the thought rings, it could be a meeting with that man with whom
> she committed adultery. So trust becomes an issue and the question
> is whether one can remain in a relationship where fear is the order
> of the day.
>
> I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of
> utmost adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about
> convenience but also does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We
> acknowledge this when we vow and make our commitment to stay
> together till death do us part. I say yes because it was not
> convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans, endure
> the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was
> not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept
> that marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The
> degrees may differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If
> Christ could at the verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive
> them, for they know not what they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt
> is capable of being forgiven. If Stephan could say the similar
> words while bleeding from stone cuts, then humanity can still
> forgive.
>
> This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the
> Master Forgiver is capable of doing it through us. We may not be
> capable of enduring the humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the
> stigma attached thereto, but Hosea could do it through Him who is
> able to do immeasurably more than all of use could imagine.
>
> So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages
> high. It depends whether you allow the cup to pass or you say
> Lord, let not my will be done by Thine. You see religion is not a
> joke. It is a paradox and the more one is able to stay on the
> right side of the paradox, the better his/her Christian life
> becomes.
>
> I have spoken for long.....food for thought
>
>
> Boyce Mkhize
>
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:05:45 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
What can I say, when you are in doubt, follow the GREATER LIGHT, the BIBLE!
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 09/08 9:55 AM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Mashudu
I thought the animal was dead, somebody resurrected, now that it is alive,
let us see if we can skin, and this time we will skin it alive.
Your understanding of Matt. 19 is enlightening, I am sure if you had enough
time, you would still go on and explain the issue in detail. There is one
person who thinks that you guys have time to write, that is all I will say.
I am sure this is one of the issues we need to submit to the GC,next year
for consideration, for your church directly contradicts your position. (See
your Manual on the topic Divorce and Remarriage. Your SDA Bible Commentary
seems to disagree with your position. Ellen G White, "Thoughts from the
Mount of blessing, from the little she wrote, seems not to be in harmony
with your position.
You ask why the disciples thought it was better not to marry? Maybe, they
saw that there will be no way of escape once they get married. For which
woman would commit adultery, if that is the only acceptable reason for
adultery. Adultery was punishable by death and not divorce. Remember here
we have a group of men, they were the ones who had a problem and not the
wives. All we hear about the women is that they brought their children to
Jesus to be blessed, for they could see that their husbands are looking for
ways to dump them.
I might still be wrong, but I LOVE THE BIBLE.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Jongimpi
You wrote:
>However I would like to know whether according to your understanding
there never is a time when divorce can be >justified. I seem to read
in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to me unfaithfulness
is a biblical ground for >divorce.
My pastor, I know you did expect me to respond. It seems like this
animal called divorce will never leave us alone. I thought we laid it
to rest but its seems like it has more than one lives.
I think it is good that this animal has come back again because up to
so far we have never discussed this topic based on what the Bible
says. Now lets listen to what the Bible says and I hope this will lay
this deadly animal to rest.
Lets start with the verse that you have quoted, Matt 19:3-10, NKJV
The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is
it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?" 4 And
He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made
[them] at the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 "and said,
'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be
joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "So then,
they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined
together, let not man separate." 7 They said to Him, "Why then did
Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?"
8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts,
permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was
not so. 9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for
sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever
marries her who is divorced commits adultery." 10 His disciples said
to Him, "If such is the case of the man with [his] wife, it is better
not to marry."
The question was: "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for
[just] any reason?"
Lets look at this very carefully, in other words, can I divorce for
just any reason, REMEMBER ANY REASON INCLUDES ADULTERY! This is very
important to note; this was the first question asked and now lets
listen to the respond. " Have you not read that He who made [them] at
the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 "and said, 'For this
reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his
wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "So then, they are no
longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let
not man separate."
Let no man separate FOR ANY REASON (including adultery) that which
God has joined together. That's exactly what Jesus is saying. That
the respond that Jesus gave to question of whether we should divorce
or not. And I believe that since He does not change that is the
respond that He still gives today. Let no man separate FOR ANY REASON
(including adultery) that which God has joined together!
Now lets look at the SECOND question. The Bible is very clear. I love
the Bible!
The second question says: Why then did Moses command to give a
certificate of divorce, and to put her away?
And here is Jesus reply, "Moses, because of the hardness of your
hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning
it was not so."
This is Jesus respond to the second question. Jesus is saying as much
as it was not God's plan for you to have kings, and God allowed it
because of the hardness of your hearts, divorce FOR ANY REASON is not
the plan of God.
Lets stop here for a moment and note that it is a dangerous thing to
go against God's plan, divorce and the Israel's monarchy testifies to
this.
We don*t have time to go and look at Moses statement on divorce but I
would like to say that Moses neither condoned or allowed divorce. The
Israelites were divorcing their wives without the permission of
Moses, and this divorced women were looked upon by people as
prostitutes, so Moses said to these heart-hardened men that when you
send your wife away give them a letter that will testify that they
were married and were divorce. This certificate will grant then
similar benefits and status like the widows. Of course like any other
thing this certificate was abused. I believe that this abuse still
continue even today, instead of using the certificate, we abuse Matt
19:9
Now lets look at Matt 19:99, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his
wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits
adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
Now, let's let the Bible speak for itself, what is Jesus addressing?
Is he addressing divorce? No, or at least that is not the gist of
this statement. I see this statement to be addressing adultery more
that divorce. As much as a man who looks at a woman in a lustful way
commits adultery, I man who DIVORCES HIS WIFE AND MARRIES ANOTHER for
any reason other than sexual immorality is committing adultery.
Even if we were to go along with those who say He is addressing
divorce, we will still be wrong, for he has to be addressing DIVORCE
AND REMARRIAGE, not just divorce.
The Bible does not says that if your wife commits adultery then
divorce her, the Bible will be contradicting itself, for God hates
divorce! Yes he does!
I hope this is very clear.
What is even more interesting is the response of the disciples. Have
you ever wondered why they said it is better not to marry? It is
because they realized that marriage is not as they thought it was.
It is also important for us to note that only Matthew has added this
clause, Luke and Mark do not have it even though they address the
same subject. And let remember that the book of Matthew was written
for the Jews.
This what Mark says: Mark 10:11-12
11 So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another
commits adultery against her. 12 "And if a woman divorces her husband
and marries another, she commits adultery."
I wish I had time to go on, but I hope that this will redirect this
debate back to the Bible.
Let's let the Bible speak!
Jeremiah
--- Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> Boyce I read your input with keen interest. I must say it is a
> blessing to have people of your calibre in these discussions.
>
> However I would like to know whether according to your
> understanding there never is a time when divorce can be justified.
> I seem to read in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to
> me unfaithfulness is a biblical ground for divorce.
>
> I Know I am going to be bombarded by the statement, "God hates
> divorce". I want to thank my colleagues in advance for this
> reminder. But why does God hate divorce? Is that the only
> thing HE hates. What if one divorces in spite of the fact that He
> hates it? One of the reasons why God hates divorce is that, it
> breaks or interrupts the lesson God wants us to give us concerning
> his relationship to us. God's covenant with His church is
> patterned after the marriage relationship, the church is the woman,
> the wife of Christ. God hates divorce, for God sent Jesus to die
> for the church because he would not divorce her, in spite of her
> sinfulness.
>
> But there are instances in the OT, where God admits that the only
> way of helping Israel is to divorce her, and this was done because
> of her unfaithfulness, by falling in love with other gods. Israel
> as a Nation was finally divorced by God because of her refusal to
> be faithful.
>
> God does not only hate divorce, He does not approve of it. As
> SDA's we believe that if one divorces on grounds that are not
> biblical, he remains married in the sight of God, and as such
> whoever marries him, commits adultery, as long as the divorced
> partner is still alive. Sometimes separation can bring a healing
> to a dying relationship, Jerry prefers to call it "cooling off",
> which to my mind can be permanent,for as long as the cause of the
> cooling off is still hot, one has to continue cooling off, to a
> point where he can freeze.
>
> I am sure many will disagree with me on the above, but at least we
> can agree on the point that, divorce is not an unpardonable sin,
> and that God hates unfaithfulness and abuse which often leads to
> divorce which he also hates. Let us not limit God only to the
> result, He hates the cause also.
>
> Lastly, I believe in forgiveness, but the way I understand it is
> that, a wife can divorce her husband and still forgive him, and
> she can forgive her husband but still divorce him.
>
> Having said the above, I am sure some of the pastors will want to
> rebaptize me.
>
> Love at Home
>
> Jongimpi married to Nomthandazo.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:22 PM
> Subject: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
>
>
> Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared
> due to technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be
> back. Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely,
> whether it will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and
> allocate a specific period to it or whatever yardstick before
> moving on to the next topic. I say so because, I was battling to
> choose which subject I must respond to, divorce or TC/TOC merger,
> both interesting subjects. This will enable us to at least have
> our site manager summarise the key points or issues arising out of
> each subject for future use at the conclusion of each debate,
> although we know, there may be fresh information in future on the
> same subject that members may wish to share. Perhaps, a point to
> ponder upon.
>
> Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
>
> I have listened with interest to the various submissions and
> theories on the causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is
> necessary to engage in a somewhat fishing expidition trying to
> ascertain or identify a grocery list of items or elements that
> cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to determine whether the
> means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly is whether or
> not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective of the
> circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to
> submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the
> inability of spouses to reconcile their different positions and
> therefore their subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is
> deliberately loosened.
>
> In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of
> divorce if and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down
> with no prospect of resuming a normal marriage relationship between
> the spouses. What causes the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage
> is of course a material factor in determining whether or not there
> exists a ground for the annulment of a marriage. But more
> importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor has led to
> the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore,
> is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are
> still capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled,
> divorce may not be granted.
>
> This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you
> want to spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with
> God could be regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of
> the Eden fall. All that needed to happen was a decree of divorce
> that would condemn humanity to eternal death as promised. However,
> Christ reconciled Himself to us and us to Him through His death and
> therefore the marriage was saved. If the marriage with Christ
> could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for any other
> marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was
> disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a
> terribly grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we
> supposed to emulate Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
>
> In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be
> able to trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this?
> Perhaps true. When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening,
> the thought rings, it could be a meeting with that man with whom
> she committed adultery. So trust becomes an issue and the question
> is whether one can remain in a relationship where fear is the order
> of the day.
>
> I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of
> utmost adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about
> convenience but also does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We
> acknowledge this when we vow and make our commitment to stay
> together till death do us part. I say yes because it was not
> convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans, endure
> the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was
> not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept
> that marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The
> degrees may differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If
> Christ could at the verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive
> them, for they know not what they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt
> is capable of being forgiven. If Stephan could say the similar
> words while bleeding from stone cuts, then humanity can still
> forgive.
>
> This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the
> Master Forgiver is capable of doing it through us. We may not be
> capable of enduring the humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the
> stigma attached thereto, but Hosea could do it through Him who is
> able to do immeasurably more than all of use could imagine.
>
> So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages
> high. It depends whether you allow the cup to pass or you say
> Lord, let not my will be done by Thine. You see religion is not a
> joke. It is a paradox and the more one is able to stay on the
> right side of the paradox, the better his/her Christian life
> becomes.
>
> I have spoken for long.....food for thought
>
>
> Boyce Mkhize
>
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:05:54 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Jerry my good friend,
It is clear that divorce is not to be allowed and that God hates it. It is
also vital that the vow "'Till Death do us part", be kept. I simply wish us
to understand that when the heart of one of the parties has moved from God
and the parties want to divorce they should be allowed to make that
decision. I do not agree that they should stay together when love is not in
existence in such relationship. Love never fails, but love can give in. I am
sure that when a man begins to assault his wife (one man even of broke her
arm) and thereafter continue to assault her in order to continue with other
adulterous relationships we shall not tell the poor lady to wait for the day
of her death in that relationship. If she lives with that scoundrel and
heathen she might eventually die due to heart attack or be attacked by the
man himself.
You must have seen what Boyce says about love as the founder of things in a
working relationship. I am sending this one to my beloved wife also to see
what I have written here.
God bless you.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize [mailto:bhizaman@aec.co.za]
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 12:40 AM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Bhut' Jongimpi
Thank you for your input. I certainly read it with excitement. I also
noted Nikelo's contribution in this regard and it is also pertinent and
relevant to the issue at hand. My input may inadvertently have created an
impression that divorce is not justifiable under any circumstances. Why do
I create this impression?
You see, the causes of divorce, as you correctly put it, also constitute sin
and and therefore warrant God's attention when He deals with sin. If we
investigate the causes of divorce, you will discover that the common element
is the lack of love. The fundamental question therefore is when does love
begin to lack? Secondly, can love really lack? I am tempted to think that
a divorce is a manifestation that there was never love and therefore no
marriage which means there technically was no marriage right in the
beginning. I take it that the substance and foundation of any marriage is
love and love is like described in the book of Corinthians. I am asking
therefore : if there was no foundation can we talk of the roof? Can we talk
of a divorce where there was never a marriage because the essential and
indispensable ingredient of such a relationship was missing. Is love
circumstantial? I submit love remains even after going through fire.
However, I am not saying, abusers, unfaithful and dishonest spouses are
correct. Their punishment is awaiting them if they fail to confess and
depart from their wrongdoing. In effect, the person that becomes dishonest,
unfaithful and abusive manifests his/her lack of love ----our foundation.
When the situation becomes intolerable for the other innocent party, he/she
quits the relationship which had no foundation.
Perhaps, God is saying, do not even get into a relationship when you lack
the necessary foundation to retain and maintain it. In shying away from
getting into a relationship when you have no love, you are effectively
dealing or safeguarding the end ----the permanent adherence to your partner.
Divorce, therefore to me, is not the end-result but the very inappropriate
beginning which leads to calamity.
He is coming soon.
Cheers for now
Boyce - Beaulah's boyfriend
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu < j.d.papu@mweb.co.za <mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> >
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <mailto:sa-sda@onelist.com> < sa-sda@onelist.com
<mailto:sa-sda@onelist.com> >
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Boyce I read your input with keen interest. I must say it is a blessing to
have people of your calibre in these discussions.
However I would like to know whether according to your understanding there
never is a time when divorce can be justified. I seem to read in Matt.
19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to me unfaithfulness is a biblical
ground for divorce.
I Know I am going to be bombarded by the statement, "God hates divorce". I
want to thank my colleagues in advance for this reminder. But why does
God hate divorce? Is that the only thing HE hates. What if one divorces
in spite of the fact that He hates it? One of the reasons why God hates
divorce is that, it breaks or interrupts the lesson God wants us to give us
concerning his relationship to us. God's covenant with His church is
patterned after the marriage relationship, the church is the woman, the wife
of Christ. God hates divorce, for God sent Jesus to die for the church
because he would not divorce her, in spite of her sinfulness.
But there are instances in the OT, where God admits that the only way of
helping Israel is to divorce her, and this was done because of her
unfaithfulness, by falling in love with other gods. Israel as a Nation was
finally divorced by God because of her refusal to be faithful.
God does not only hate divorce, He does not approve of it. As SDA's we
believe that if one divorces on grounds that are not biblical, he remains
married in the sight of God, and as such whoever marries him, commits
adultery, as long as the divorced partner is still alive. Sometimes
separation can bring a healing to a dying relationship, Jerry prefers to
call it "cooling off", which to my mind can be permanent,for as long as the
cause of the cooling off is still hot, one has to continue cooling off, to a
point where he can freeze.
I am sure many will disagree with me on the above, but at least we can agree
on the point that, divorce is not an unpardonable sin, and that God hates
unfaithfulness and abuse which often leads to divorce which he also hates.
Let us not limit God only to the result, He hates the cause also.
Lastly, I believe in forgiveness, but the way I understand it is that, a
wife can divorce her husband and still forgive him, and she can forgive her
husband but still divorce him.
Having said the above, I am sure some of the pastors will want to rebaptize
me.
Love at Home
Jongimpi married to Nomthandazo.
-----Original Message-----
From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize < bhizaman@aec.co.za <mailto:bhizaman@aec.co.za> >
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <mailto:sa-sda@onelist.com> < sa-sda@onelist.com
<mailto:sa-sda@onelist.com> >
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:22 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared due to
technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be back. Secondly,
I would like to raise a household issue, namely, whether it will not be
prudent to discuss/debat one topic and allocate a specific period to it or
whatever yardstick before moving on to the next topic. I say so because, I
was battling to choose which subject I must respond to, divorce or TC/TOC
merger, both interesting subjects. This will enable us to at least have our
site manager summarise the key points or issues arising out of each subject
for future use at the conclusion of each debate, although we know, there may
be fresh information in future on the same subject that members may wish to
share. Perhaps, a point to ponder upon.
Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
I have listened with interest to the various submissions and theories on the
causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is necessary to engage in a
somewhat fishing expidition trying to ascertain or identify a grocery list
of items or elements that cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to
determine whether the means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly
is whether or not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective
of the circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to
submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the inability
of spouses to reconcile their different positions and therefore their
subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is deliberately loosened.
In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of divorce if
and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down with no prospect of
resuming a normal marriage relationship between the spouses. What causes
the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage is of course a material factor in
determining whether or not there exists a ground for the annulment of a
marriage. But more importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor
has led to the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore,
is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are still
capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled, divorce may not be
granted.
This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you want to
spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with God could be
regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of the Eden fall. All
that needed to happen was a decree of divorce that would condemn humanity to
eternal death as promised. However, Christ reconciled Himself to us and us
to Him through His death and therefore the marriage was saved. If the
marriage with Christ could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for
any other marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was
disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a terribly
grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we supposed to emulate
Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be able to
trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this? Perhaps true.
When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening, the thought rings, it
could be a meeting with that man with whom she committed adultery. So trust
becomes an issue and the question is whether one can remain in a
relationship where fear is the order of the day.
I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of utmost
adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about convenience but also
does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We acknowledge this when we vow
and make our commitment to stay together till death do us part. I say yes
because it was not convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans,
endure the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was
not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept that
marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The degrees may
differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If Christ could at the
verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what
they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt is capable of being forgiven. If
Stephan could say the similar words while bleeding from stone cuts, then
humanity can still forgive.
This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the Master Forgiver
is capable of doing it through us. We may not be capable of enduring the
humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the stigma attached thereto, but
Hosea could do it through Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all
of use could imagine.
So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages high. It depends
whether you allow the cup to pass or you say Lord, let not my will be done
by Thine. You see religion is not a joke. It is a paradox and the more one
is able to stay on the right side of the paradox, the better his/her
Christian life becomes.
I have spoken for long.....food for thought
Boyce Mkhize
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 16:04:50 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Boyce
I must say, I am tempted to make some few comments, but I will leave it at that. But you made your point very clearly. We need men like you, who do not hope and pray that a Lion will save them from the trap of marriage.
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Bhut' Jongimpi
Thank you for your input. I certainly read it with excitement. I also noted Nikelo's contribution in this regard and it is also pertinent and relevant to the issue at hand. My input may inadvertently have created an impression that divorce is not justifiable under any circumstances. Why do I create this impression?
You see, the causes of divorce, as you correctly put it, also constitute sin and and therefore warrant God's attention when He deals with sin. If we investigate the causes of divorce, you will discover that the common element is the lack of love. The fundamental question therefore is when does love begin to lack? Secondly, can love really lack? I am tempted to think that a divorce is a manifestation that there was never love and therefore no marriage which means there technically was no marriage right in the beginning. I take it that the substance and foundation of any marriage is love and love is like described in the book of Corinthians. I am asking therefore : if there was no foundation can we talk of the roof? Can we talk of a divorce where there was never a marriage because the essential and indispensable ingredient of such a relationship was missing. Is love circumstantial? I submit love remains even after going through fire. However, I am not saying, abusers, unfaithful and dishonest spouses are correct. Their punishment is awaiting them if they fail to confess and depart from their wrongdoing. In effect, the person that becomes dishonest, unfaithful and abusive manifests his/her lack of love ----our foundation. When the situation becomes intolerable for the other innocent party, he/she quits the relationship which had no foundation.
Perhaps, God is saying, do not even get into a relationship when you lack the necessary foundation to retain and maintain it. In shying away from getting into a relationship when you have no love, you are effectively dealing or safeguarding the end ----the permanent adherence to your partner. Divorce, therefore to me, is not the end-result but the very inappropriate beginning which leads to calamity.
He is coming soon.
Cheers for now
Boyce - Beaulah's boyfriend
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Boyce I read your input with keen interest. I must say it is a blessing to have people of your calibre in these discussions.
However I would like to know whether according to your understanding there never is a time when divorce can be justified. I seem to read in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to me unfaithfulness is a biblical ground for divorce.
I Know I am going to be bombarded by the statement, "God hates divorce". I want to thank my colleagues in advance for this reminder. But why does God hate divorce? Is that the only thing HE hates. What if one divorces in spite of the fact that He hates it? One of the reasons why God hates divorce is that, it breaks or interrupts the lesson God wants us to give us concerning his relationship to us. God's covenant with His church is patterned after the marriage relationship, the church is the woman, the wife of Christ. God hates divorce, for God sent Jesus to die for the church because he would not divorce her, in spite of her sinfulness.
But there are instances in the OT, where God admits that the only way of helping Israel is to divorce her, and this was done because of her unfaithfulness, by falling in love with other gods. Israel as a Nation was finally divorced by God because of her refusal to be faithful.
God does not only hate divorce, He does not approve of it. As SDA's we believe that if one divorces on grounds that are not biblical, he remains married in the sight of God, and as such whoever marries him, commits adultery, as long as the divorced partner is still alive. Sometimes separation can bring a healing to a dying relationship, Jerry prefers to call it "cooling off", which to my mind can be permanent,for as long as the cause of the cooling off is still hot, one has to continue cooling off, to a point where he can freeze.
I am sure many will disagree with me on the above, but at least we can agree on the point that, divorce is not an unpardonable sin, and that God hates unfaithfulness and abuse which often leads to divorce which he also hates. Let us not limit God only to the result, He hates the cause also.
Lastly, I believe in forgiveness, but the way I understand it is that, a wife can divorce her husband and still forgive him, and she can forgive her husband but still divorce him.
Having said the above, I am sure some of the pastors will want to rebaptize me.
Love at Home
Jongimpi married to Nomthandazo.
-----Original Message-----
From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:22 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared due to technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be back. Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely, whether it will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and allocate a specific period to it or whatever yardstick before moving on to the next topic. I say so because, I was battling to choose which subject I must respond to, divorce or TC/TOC merger, both interesting subjects. This will enable us to at least have our site manager summarise the key points or issues arising out of each subject for future use at the conclusion of each debate, although we know, there may be fresh information in future on the same subject that members may wish to share. Perhaps, a point to ponder upon.
Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
I have listened with interest to the various submissions and theories on the causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is necessary to engage in a somewhat fishing expidition trying to ascertain or identify a grocery list of items or elements that cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to determine whether the means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly is whether or not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective of the circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the inability of spouses to reconcile their different positions and therefore their subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is deliberately loosened.
In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of divorce if and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down with no prospect of resuming a normal marriage relationship between the spouses. What causes the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage is of course a material factor in determining whether or not there exists a ground for the annulment of a marriage. But more importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor has led to the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore, is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are still capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled, divorce may not be granted.
This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you want to spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with God could be regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of the Eden fall. All that needed to happen was a decree of divorce that would condemn humanity to eternal death as promised. However, Christ reconciled Himself to us and us to Him through His death and therefore the marriage was saved. If the marriage with Christ could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for any other marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a terribly grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we supposed to emulate Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be able to trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this? Perhaps true. When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening, the thought rings, it could be a meeting with that man with whom she committed adultery. So trust becomes an issue and the question is whether one can remain in a relationship where fear is the order of the day.
I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of utmost adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about convenience but also does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We acknowledge this when we vow and make our commitment to stay together till death do us part. I say yes because it was not convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans, endure the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept that marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The degrees may differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If Christ could at the verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt is capable of being forgiven. If Stephan could say the similar words while bleeding from stone cuts, then humanity can still forgive.
This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the Master Forgiver is capable of doing it through us. We may not be capable of enduring the humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the stigma attached thereto, but Hosea could do it through Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all of use could imagine.
So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages high. It depends whether you allow the cup to pass or you say Lord, let not my will be done by Thine. You see religion is not a joke. It is a paradox and the more one is able to stay on the right side of the paradox, the better his/her Christian life becomes.
I have spoken for long.....food for thought
Boyce Mkhize
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:18:15 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Nick,
When we start to rationalize instead of following simply what God says, we fall into a great danger!
It is strange that when our cars have a problem we do not rationalize but follow what the manual says, but when it comes to our lives we would rationalize rather then follow what God says.
This past Sunday I was speaking at the local Youth Prison and I told young people there that If they follow what God says and somehow God fails them I will leave Christianity, And that's the gospel!
Follow the manual and you will never go wrong!
He will come!
Jeremiah
>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 09/08 10:05 AM >>>
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
Jerry my good friend,
It is clear that divorce is not to be allowed and that God hates it. It is
also vital that the vow "'Till Death do us part", be kept. I simply wish us
to understand that when the heart of one