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There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Re: TC-TOC Merger
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
2. Cape Conference Clips (Bumper Edition)
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
3. Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xxx.xxx
4. re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
5. Divorce
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
6. Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
7. TOC - TC Merger
From: "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@xxxx.xx.xxx
8. Re: Re: TC-TOC Merger
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
9. Re: Witchcraft !!
From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@xxxxx.xxxx
10. Re: Baptism.
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
11. Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
12. Re: Re: TC-TOC Merger
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
13. Fw: ANN Bulletin: Sept 7, 1999
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
14. Re: Witchcraft !!
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xxx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 12:45:06 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Re: TC-TOC Merger
Dear Mr President,
You wrote:"In the interim, the TOC Constituency has planned to double
its current
membership [17 359] by the year 2001. This simply means that we have
rolled
our sleeves in order to engage ourselves in rigorous activities that
would
help us realise our goals. We still have townships, villages,
locations,
suburbs where there is no Adventist presence. We are beginning to see
the
signs of the envisaged growth because we have already baptised 939
persons
between 01/11/1998 and 31/03/1999. This numerical growth is also
coupled
with monetary growth."
My interest in this whole passage was not with how you counter
financial challanges you confront when persuing your unity with TC but
with how you abuse Christ's command :"Go ye therefore ..." I may be
getting this wrongly, but am I right if I interpret it like you have
this target of 34 718 total membership in the TOC for financial purposes
more than "spreading the word"? I do believe that our motives are not
Godly blessed if this is one of the primary reasons for target you have
put for your conference. I would even go as far as saying that we
should not even use this as an assumption on our finances - it seems, to
me, more like the exploitation of either the gospel or poor recruits.
The gospel is not products that has to be sold to convert souls leading
to the boost of the conference revenue. The gospel is to set souls free
from sin and the idea that they can do all through themselves and their
intelligence. It leads humans to realize that all things work best if
God is in the steering wheel of our decision making process in th
boardrooms.
I am mostly embarrassed by how we Adventist motivate ourselves to
preaching the word - especially the clergy. Some of the ministers and
church members would preach for recognition by either the office or by
fellow workers and church members. Other ministers would do this for
promotion to conference office of directorship, management to blame as
well because they do not look at leadership skills when appointing but
how you have been or are working in the field. May be poeple need to
apply for posts in our conferences since we seem to be following a
corporate management system.
When it comes to membership - let us do it for Christ and Christ only.
He will take care of the finances. We have survived till now what, our
churches are better than they have ever been before, what then can be
the problem, the merger or saving souls? I guess we can also rest
assured that we will never be like the Joneses nor can we will be like
the Petersens. Probably we need to practice the attitude of being
contented.
I am just airing my views meaning not to offend any soul.
God bless.
Lungani
>>> "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com> 09/06/99 08:43AM >>>
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com>
Dear President
The whole problem with this issue, whether you call it merger or unity
is
the lack of proper communication by the TOC and local church delegation
to
the constituency.
>From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Subject: [sa-sda] Re: TC-TOC Merger
>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:54:41 +0200
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>
>To briefly respond to a conversation between Jerry & Nick pertaining
to the
>TC-TOC merger. The TOC, in its recent session [31 October 1998], took
an
>action to never initiate any further talks with the TC regarding
merger,
>but keep the communication lines open in case the TC develops an
interest
>in the subject. The minutes of the above-mentioned TOC Session were
>despatched to the entire TOC Constituency. In a nutshell, the
>communication lines are still open on the TOC side.
>
>In the interim, the TOC Constituency has planned to double its current
>membership [17 359] by the year 2001. This simply means that we have
rolled
>our sleeves in order to engage ourselves in rigorous activities that
would
>help us realise our goals. We still have townships, villages,
locations,
>suburbs where there is no Adventist presence. We are beginning to see
the
>signs of the envisaged growth because we have already baptised 939
persons
>between 01/11/1998 and 31/03/1999. This numerical growth is also
coupled
>with monetary growth. We are beginning to experience an unprecedented
>interest demonstrated by our members in various modes of evangelism.
>
>Once more on the issue of "merger." I think we should employ Biblical
>terms in our quest to unify the church in this part of the country. I
>would prefer the word "unity" because it is more Biblical than the
term -
>"merger." The word "merger" is a business term, and it presupposes
two
>companies amalgamating their assets for several reasons [acquisition
of one
>company by another, or creating a strong business partnership out of
>merging two companies], hence the inevitability of this question: "How
much
>do you have before we can consider merging?" instead of facing a
crucial,
>moral question: "Can we continue in this fashion without hurting the
very
>mission of this church and frustrating God's purpose?" The word
"merger"
>robs the whole process of Church Unity of its spiritual/moral tone.
What
>do you think?
>
>Tankiso Letseli
>
Vusi Kaunda
Information Resource Center
US Information Service
Ph 27 11 982 5580
Fx 27 11 982 5844
vusi12@hotmail.com
PO Box 1762
Houghton
2041
http://www.usia.gov/posts/pretoria
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_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:06:28 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Cape Conference Clips (Bumper Edition)
[This message contained attachments]
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:13:31 +0200
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
Pandelani indicated that one of the roots of divorce is lack of
communication which is true. If I take this further I would say lack of
effective communication is one of the major courses of divorce. If an
action of a spouse hurts, how you comminate this to him/her will determine
the effectiveness of your communication. More often people blame intead of
indicating how one's action impacts on the relationship. There is a vast
differrence between such statements; "You did this, it is very
inconsiderate and I'm hurt" or "You did this and this is how it makes me
feel." With the first statement, a person is bound to be defensive because
he/she is being judged and blamed for their action and yet the second
statement makes one to be aware of how his/her action affects the
relationship and decide whether to continue with the act or stop.
Another factor I wanted to state is that we should understand that in any
relationship, no one can fullfil all of our needs. In his book How to Live
With Another Person in a chapter entitled Defining A Relationship, Dr David
Viscott states; "Everyone has many facets and no single person can match
all the facets or fill all the needs of another. The best we can hope for
is to help fulfill each other where we can and not lament what is
impossible or stand in the way of the fulfillment we cannot offer." Some
people fall into a trap of wanting to be all for their spouses and they get
frustrated by the reality that they have limitations. Often they feel they
are not needed when there are needs they cannot fulfill for their spouses
and then they'll start looking for culprits who will make them feel needed.
Another factor which leads to divorce is the fear of giving each other
space to breath. There are times when one may feel suffocated in a
relationship and he/she just wants a break to refocus. When one
communicates this to the spouse, the idea is met with suspissions or is
totally rejected. Another quotation from Dr Viscott regarding space " Two
people in a close relationship need space. With the world nowadays
beginning to feel as if it is closing in on us, it is important that the
most important relationship in our life allow for some kind of relief and
not insist on an unyielding togetherness which will only aggravate feelings
of being trapped. When our need for space in a relationship is ignored, it
is a double injury because the person who invades our space is the very
person we most expect to understand our need for room to live and breath.
No relationship can survive an overabundance of closeness. The best way to
prevent a relationship from destroying itself over the question of space is
to allow each partner to have the space he/she needs. If living space is
not allowed, the relationship is doomed anyhow. To keep a person from the
space that allows him to hear his own thoughts is sometimes to keep him/her
from the most important part of himself/herself."
Marriage is God's institution, it is only Him who knows how it can survive.
It is important for a couple to acquaint themselves constantly with the
author of this institution both as individuals and as a couple. People get
into marriage with selfish hearts, in order to stay married they need God
to change their hearts. Books like the one I,ve just quotated can be read,
marriage counsellors can be consulted, and other attempts can be done to
keep the marriage intact, but if the hearts are not in God's workshop all
will be done in vain.
Lastly, people have personal goals to be achieved throughout their lives.
Some are achievable before marriage and some are long-term goals which will
be achieved after marraige. There are people whose goals are to get married
and when they are married they don't know what to do. Such people's
frustration causes instability in a marriage which can lead to divorce
because they have reached their goal and they have no idea on how to go on
with life since they never thought about staying married.
With regards to long-term goals, people whose personal goals which will be
achieved whilst they are in marriage often do not communicate this to their
partners during courtship. After marriage then they drop this bomb which
will drastically change the lives of their family members and they expect
their spouses to understand. Change rattles tranquillity, if a spouse is
not informed well in advance about this, it becomes difficult to adjust
into this change because he/she was never given the opportunity to prepare
for it.
Do these factors justify divorce, by no means. However, they are worth
taking into consideration. Jesus made divorce impossible when he said we
should forgive 70 x 7. I believe people opt for divorce because they feel
they have been wronged. If your are a Christian, it will hard to start
counting the many times you have been wronged and you would not be
potraying the fruit of the Spirit.
He died that we may life, abundantly. Lets live this life in Him.
Tselane.
----------
From: Pandelani Mbedzi <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
Date: Monday, September 06, 1999 9:20 PM
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
WHAT ARE THE REAL ROOTS OF DIVORCE? iS NOT TRUE THAT GOD HATES DIVORCE
EVEN
IF POEPLE DO it? THE REASON WHY HE HATES IT, IS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE DOING IT
AND IT IS WRONG. God hates and we need to find the courses of divorce.
I believe that the following reasons are the great courses of divorce: 1.
Poor and luck of communication.
2. Financial problems.
3. Third parties e.g. in-laws, friends and Jobs.
4. Too much of Jealousy which courses you to trust our spouse.
5. luck of fellowship with God and one another.
6. luck of appreciating of each other.
You may add the list and I could not I do not have time like many of you
do.
Which out on those because many good marriages have been destroyed because
of not taking care of the above issues.
Paul Mbedzi.
>From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: "'sa-sda@onelist.com'" <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:38:24 +0200
>
>From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>
>Jongimpi,
>
>Apart from those that are explicitly mentioned in the bible, does God
allow
>for divorce on other grounds (such as the ones you alluded to)?
>
>A lot of us have personal experience of living in families that fell apart
>due to divorce and can bear witness to the fact that had the marriage not
>ended, those involved would be worse off in many ways. While not
advocating
>divorce, I think that grounds do exist for it in some cases.
>
>Having said all the above, I fully agree with you that if we follow God's
>lead prior to committing to anyone, we are setting ourselves up to enjoy
>marriage as God meant for us to enjoy it.
>
>Time doth softly, swiftly glide when there's love at home.
>
>Ramodise
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
>Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 18:34
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>
>
>Tankiso, and those who shared some insights on divorce
>
>Why are so many people divorcing? Well the most qualified to answer, are
>probably those who have gone through the experience. At the end of this
>short discussion I would like to share one or two things I think we should
>do to stop this scourge.
>
>If they should not divorce what should they do? Be battered and finally
>murdered in a relationship? Be emotionally and psychologically abused to
>the extent that they lose their humanity and dignity in the process? Sit
>by
>to baby sit the children that have been fathered or mothered by the spouse
>in some extra marital relationship? Blessed are those who die in their
>marital relationship for to them belongs the kingdom of God? Blessed are
>those who suffer and are humiliated and their trust betrayed, for great is
>their reward in heaven. Cursed is the person who divorces his/her spouse
>for God hates divorce.
>
> I know it may be very easy for some of us to theorise on this issue.
>The above represent some of the reasons why people divorce, if we say
they
>should not divorce, we should also be bold enough to tell them what they
>should do. Here is my list of things we can do, to prevent the factors
>that
>led to divorce.
>
> 1. The church should stop teaching that Marriage is a must -
> Many in support of this false teaching have misused what God said to
Adam,
>"It is not good for man to be alone..." as meaning that all should get
>married. I do not think that this was referring to us but to Adam, if it
>is
>true, then where do we put Christ? Because many believe that there is
>something wrong if they do not marry, they throw themselves at the first
>person that says I want to marry you, and this is often the reason for
>divorce. Marriage become the reason for one's existence, this reminds me
>of the ante-deluvians!
>
> 2. There is no Biblical support for a "rib theory"
>Because Eve was taken from the side of Adam, some have deduced from this,
>that every person has a rib somewhere that belongs to him or her. This
>cannot make sense, for how many ribs can a person have? What if the first
>spouse dies after a year or twenty, was that your rib? Will the second
>person be your rib too? Or are we talking about one rib at a time?
>People
>divorce thinking that they married a wrong person, and they start a long
>search for a lost rib/person that was created for him/her. The person
you
>marry is the right one, make things work, there is no better one anywhere,
>that is my opinion.
>
> 3. Love has been over-romanticised
>Today many of those who say they are in love prove to be in love with
>love. They love the feeling they are experiencing and when that
>disappears, they go searching for a person who will provoke that feeling.
>Love is a principle and not a feeling (EG White somewhere). The best
>definition of love is found in 1 Cor. 13, maybe we need to read it often.
>Because God has been removed from love, love has become a destructive
>feeling that knows no limits.
>
> 4 Marriage thrives in Interdependence and not Codependence
>We have taught and have come to believe that in order to be romantic, we
>must psyche ourselves into believing that we cannot do without our
>spouses. What we call love is nothing but obsession. You frequently
hear
>people saying to each other, "You are my life, without you, I would die,
>what can I do without you? This to me is a language of worship and not
>love. Many people are worshipping their spouse, and as such make
>themselves vulnerable to abuse. People should be encouraged to be
>independent, to be able to stand on their own, Marriage is not an
>institution for people who are sick or those who need happiness. Let
>people find happiness before and not in marriage. Sharing must take place
>in marriage and not "sucking". We should find God first before we can
>commit ourselves to anyone, anything less than this is a recipe for
>disaster.
>
> 5.Wait, let me stop, for now, and give you a chance to engage with the
>above.
>
>Divorce is a serious matter, so should our discussion, simplistic solution
>will not do.
>
>Marriage is a holy institution but not every union is holy -
>
>Love at home
>
>Jongimpi
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tankiso Letseli < tletseli@mweb.co.za <mailto:tletseli@mweb.co.za> >
>To: SA-SDA < sa-sda@onelist.com <mailto:sa-sda@onelist.com> >
>Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:53 PM
>Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>
>
>I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging from
>salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and
>seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is fast
>becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There were times
>when
>we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of divorce in our ranks. I
>think we are coming to a point where an Adventist will know someone or a
>case in his/her local church which is divorce-related. The same is true
>with HIV/AIDS challenge. When you say or quote this statement: "God hates
>divorce!" I can almost hear a person remarking: "So What? - Who cares?"
>I
>think the issue or plague of divorce will need an approach that is more
>than
>quoting the Scriptures - "God hates divorce." An approach that will go
>beyond marital counselling - to the core of the problem. I do not have
this
>approach, too. I am still searching. May be our discussions will help give
>birth to this envisaged approach.
>
> Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or conflicts by way
of
>divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that bar or
>discourage them from taking that route. And some of them prefer to
divorce
>in spite of many many reasons that should keep them together. But they
>still
>prefer to go the "divorce" way. May be the cause is not in divorce,
>because
>"divorce" is a by-product or a result of an eroded relationship between
the
>affected parties, and to a certain extend - an eroded relationship between
>an individual and his/her God. I sympathise with those who are also their
>journey to find a solution to this problem.
>
>Tankiso Letseli
>tletseli@mweb.co.za <mailto:tletseli@mweb.co.za>
>
>
>
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:04:37 -0700
From: "Adv. Boyce Mkhize" <bhizaman@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared due to technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be back. Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely, whether it will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and allocate a specific period to it or whatever yardstick before moving on to the next topic. I say so because, I was battling to choose which subject I must respond to, divorce or TC/TOC merger, both interesting subjects. This will enable us to at least have our site manager summarise the key points or issues arising out of each subject for future use at the conclusion of each debate, although we know, there may be fresh information in future on the same subject that members may wish to share. Perhaps, a point to ponder upon.
Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
I have listened with interest to the various submissions and theories on the causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is necessary to engage in a somewhat fishing expidition trying to ascertain or identify a grocery list of items or elements that cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to determine whether the means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly is whether or not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective of the circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the inability of spouses to reconcile their different positions and therefore their subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is deliberately loosened.
In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of divorce if and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down with no prospect of resuming a normal marriage relationship between the spouses. What causes the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage is of course a material factor in determining whether or not there exists a ground for the annulment of a marriage. But more importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor has led to the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore, is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are still capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled, divorce may not be granted.
This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you want to spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with God could be regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of the Eden fall. All that needed to happen was a decree of divorce that would condemn humanity to eternal death as promised. However, Christ reconciled Himself to us and us to Him through His death and therefore the marriage was saved. If the marriage with Christ could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for any other marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a terribly grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we supposed to emulate Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be able to trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this? Perhaps true. When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening, the thought rings, it could be a meeting with that man with whom she committed adultery. So trust becomes an issue and the question is whether one can remain in a relationship where fear is the order of the day.
I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of utmost adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about convenience but also does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We acknowledge this when we vow and make our commitment to stay together till death do us part. I say yes because it was not convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans, endure the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept that marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The degrees may differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If Christ could at the verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt is capable of being forgiven. If Stephan could say the similar words while bleeding from stone cuts, then humanity can still forgive.
This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the Master Forgiver is capable of doing it through us. We may not be capable of enduring the humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the stigma attached thereto, but Hosea could do it through Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all of use could imagine.
So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages high. It depends whether you allow the cup to pass or you say Lord, let not my will be done by Thine. You see religion is not a joke. It is a paradox and the more one is able to stay on the right side of the paradox, the better his/her Christian life becomes.
I have spoken for long.....food for thought
Boyce Mkhize
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:50:32 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Divorce
Dear friends,
I have read the many submissions that have come by, particularly those of
Tselane, Boyce and Pandelani. They have made me to ask several questions.
Let me prelude and say that love never fails. However love is not blind.
Probably we should go back to the discussions of Jongimpi and Jerry when it
was made abundantly clear that there may have to be a separation, if
practicality is to be served well in particular circumstances. Should the
offending party refuse to change and instead continue in his evil ways one
cannot just rest and continue in a "marriage" that exists only in theory and
not in reality. I believe there is a stage when marriage exits only on paper
and not in the real sense of the word. This is what I refer to as hell on
earth. In such circumstances one has to strive to make heaven on earth
whatever the cost is to achieve this. It may be prayer and bible reading to
increase faith in God. But it may well be separation. I sometimes feel it
may well be divorce in order to marry the same person later on, if possible.
For example, if a man continues to assault his wife the she must not simply
rest assured that oneday the husband will come right. In fact the husband
must be arrested for a criminal offence known as ASSAULT. Furthermore the
wife may have to leave the common household and abandon this husband for
some time.
If leaving can solve the problem then so be it. No man, when he professes to
believe in the second coming of Jesus, should be allowed to thrive on evil.
A wife is not a property as it used to be the case in ancient Roman times.
He is even at the door.
Nick
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:10:16 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Daniel
+27 83 289 9975
+27 11 476 2224 (w)
On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Adv. Boyce Mkhize wrote:
"Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely, whether it
will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and allocate a specific
period to it or whatever yardstick before moving on to the next topic.
I say so because, I was battling to choose which subject I must respond
to, divorce or TC/TOC merger, both interesting subjects."
I am personally not in favour of Boyce's idea. This would limit some of
us since we have different interests, for example, I personally enjoy
theological issues. If we were to discuss only divorce for three weeks
some of us would be exluded.
I cannot understand why so many people are more interested in
discussing divorce more than the gospel. Let me tell you why I say this.
There have been interesting discussions on:
(i) Good works Versus Salvation.
(ii) 1888 Message
(iii) Baptism (this has been the most difficult),
but there have been few contributions. (thank God for Jeremiah, Jongimpi
for their interest.) Are these regarded as minor issues? I hope not.
But I would like to suggest that lack of proper understanding of what the
gospel really is is the root cause of all our problems, viz divorce, dress,
merger, etc. If people understood what the gospel is we would not have to
tell them what to dress, etc. Our churches are full of such discussions
but they do not seem to work. Again I repeat, If people knew what the
gospel is all about there would not be members who stay away from church
just because they are not in good terms with a certain brother or sister.
Let us focus on The Lamb "which taketh away the sin of the world" and
dwell LESS on negative issues.
Going back to Boyce's suggestion I think choosing which subject to respond
to is a matter of personal preference. One can choose to delete whatever
is not appealing to him/her or respond to all. I personally read all
messages (though with less interest in some) and respond to whatever I
think is important. I cannot see how discussing the "merger" can help us
know Him and Him crucified ( could it be that the TOC decided not to
pursue the merger issue because they saw this truth?)
The Master will surely return someday!
Daniel
>
> Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared due to technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be back.
> Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely, whether it
> will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and allocate a specific
> period to it or whatever yardstick before moving on to the next topic.
> I say so because, I was battling to choose which subject I must respond
> to, divorce or TC/TOC merger, both interesting subjects. This will
> enable us to at least have our site manager summarise the key points or
>issues arising out of each subject for future use at the conclusion of
> each debate, although we know, there may be fresh information in future
> on the same subject that members may wish to share. Perhaps, a point to
> ponder upon.
>
> Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
>
> I have listened with interest to the various submissions and theories on the causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is necessary to engage in a somewhat fishing expidition trying to ascertain or identify a grocery list of items or elements that cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to determine whether the means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly is whether or not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective of the circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the inability of spouses to reconcile their different positions and therefore their subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is deliberately loosened.
>
> In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of divorce if and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down with no prospect of resuming a normal marriage relationship between the spouses. What causes the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage is of course a material factor in determining whether or not there exists a ground for the annulment of a marriage. But more importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor has led to the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore, is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are still capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled, divorce may not be granted.
>
> This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you want to spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with God could be regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of the Eden fall. All that needed to happen was a decree of divorce that would condemn humanity to eternal death as promised. However, Christ reconciled Himself to us and us to Him through His death and therefore the marriage was saved. If the marriage with Christ could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for any other marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a terribly grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we supposed to emulate Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
>
> In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be able to trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this? Perhaps true. When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening, the thought rings, it could be a meeting with that man with whom she committed adultery. So trust becomes an issue and the question is whether one can remain in a relationship where fear is the order of the day.
>
> I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of utmost adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about convenience but also does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We acknowledge this when we vow and make our commitment to stay together till death do us part. I say yes because it was not convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans, endure the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept that marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The degrees may differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If Christ could at the verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt is capable of being forgiven. If Stephan could say the similar words while bleeding from stone cuts, then humanity can still forgive.
>
> This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the Master Forgiver is capable of doing it through us. We may not be capable of enduring the humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the stigma attached thereto, but Hosea could do it through Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all of use could imagine.
>
> So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages high. It depends whether you allow the cup to pass or you say Lord, let not my will be done by Thine. You see religion is not a joke. It is a paradox and the more one is able to stay on the right side of the paradox, the better his/her Christian life becomes.
>
> I have spoken for long.....food for thought
>
>
> Boyce Mkhize
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:41:35 +0200
From: "Weiers Coetser" <weiersc@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: TOC - TC Merger
A perspective from Kwa-Zulu Natal
I am in possession of an undated (typical adventist) document sent by the TC to its pastors and churches titled:
PREPARATION FOR A SPECIAL SESSION RE THE POSSIBLE MERGER OF THE TRANSVAAL AND TRANS-ORANGE CONFERENCES
I thought it might be worth typing out the 7 pages quickly. (minus some bar charts and with added typos)
Let me just mention right at the start that I completely disagree with the reasoning in the document. One of the pointed statements in the document says that arguments in favor of the merger are decidedly 'political'. The implication is that this is wrong/bad/undersirable. If a person, however, takes the most basic meaning of "politics" -- power relationships -- It becomes almost embarassingly clear who is really "political' in this document.
INTRODUCTION
At our previous Conference Session, action was taken to make a decision as soon as possible rgarding the possibility of the merging of the Transvaal Conference (of which you are a member) and the trans-Orange Conference.
As you know, the possible mergin of the two Conferences, is a very involved process, due to the widely divergent views and the far-reaching implications.
In order to prepare for a Special Conference Session, we wish to ascertain our Conference members' opinion regarding a future merger of our Conference and its Churhces. OUr Conference highly regards our member' input, views and opinions, in as much as the Conference is comprised of its members. YOur response, reflecting your views and wishes, are of the utmost importance.
Following, are comparative data and statistics regarding the two conferences as well as a short summary of advantages and disadvantages, as identified at a joint meeting of pasors of the respective conferences, held at Mopani Lodge during September 1998.
With the available information, and together with insights from your own perspective, please complete and return the questionnaire. Please also give due consideration to chruch growth principles and the completion of the gospel commission in this portion of the Lord's vineyard.
We request you to prayerfully consider the future direction in whihc the Lord is leading His church, and that you will earnestly entreat the Lord to guide the process of decision-making, so that we will be following His will at all times!
All chruch members are kindly requested to prayerfully study the information attached, and answer the questions...
COMPARATIVE DATA & STATISTICS (MAY ' 99)
MEMBERSHIP AND CHURCHEs
TRANSVAAL TRANS ORANGE
Conference Conference
Membership
1996 8783 14549
1997 8694 15 233
1998 9149 16 659
Number of Churches
1999 72 170
Number of Comapnies and Groups
14 81
Total nubmer of chruches, companies & groups
86 251
Baptisms
1996 276 198
1997 345 630
1998 584 2227 (Pentecost '98)
EMPLOYEES
Number of pastors 43 32
Number of Admin&staff
18 18
Ratio of Churches (or companies/groups) to pastors
2:1 8:1
SCHOOLS
Number of schools 5 4
teachers 45 27
students 596 798
Ratio of teacher
per students 1:13 1:30
Adventist Community Services
Hospitals 1 -
Old Age Homes 3 1
Retirement Villages 6 -
Service Centres 8 -
Meals on Wheels 19 10
Creches 2 4
Enrichment Centre 1 -
Total Brancehs 40 15
Tithes and Offerings
1996 9 252 521 4 620 164
1997 10 691 155 5 346 302
1998 12 377 252 5 923 618
Tithe Per Capita
1998 R1352 pa R355.58 pa
--------------------------
A study of the advantages and disadvatages of mergin the tranvaal and trans-orange conferences
INTRODUCTION
Since the 27 April 1994 general election, the matter of mergin the conferences seems to have acquired a greater urgency, as it appeared to be the politically-correct thing to do. However, there have also been genuine reservation to do so on this basis only, since the church realises that, aolthough in the world it need not always be aligned to the world. As a result, many meetings and discussions have taken place, both within and between these conferecnes.
Once again, this study is a sincere endeavour to evaluate what action may be most beneficial to the work of God in these geographical areas.
CONTACT FOR UNITY - MOPANI LODGE,
15 - 17 SEPTEMBER 1998
This meeting was called by the concerned conferences and was constituted of most of their workers. These workers were divided into six mixed groups to discuss, study and report to the pleanry session the thinking of each group. The facilitator was a non-SDA, thus ensuring the least amount of pressure from administrative levels.
The views of each of the six groups have been collated and summarised, as reflected below:
ADVANTAGES
Cultural: The cross-pollination of culutres will lead to enrichment of the church
Political: (a) The merged conferences will enhance the image of the church in society. This does nto necessarily mean that the government will be impressed, even though it will be in line with the political situation in SA. It will remove all appearance of racism.
(b) The church will become relevant to community services, and will enjoy the support of the community.
Spiritual (a) If the conferences were to merge they would be follwoing the Divine imperative of a united church. This is seen as a moral duty since Christ prayed for the unity of the church in Him. This will be seen as an external manifestation of internalised values.
(b) the groups saw a greater preparedness for the Second Coming because Christ comes to fetch His 'bride' and not 'brides'. In fact, the spirituality of the church, generally will strenghten.
(c) The evangelistic thrust will be strenghtened and an explosion of souls won for the Kingdom will take place.
FINANCIAL
The historically disadvantaged group ois moving up the financial scale, and this would benefit both groups. It will make both conferences (combined) financially viable. A combined conference will reduce the number of people presently employed in the financial departments. Poeple would be on the basis of skills rather than their racial orientation.
WORSHIP
A merger would offer an opportunity to remove guilt feelings and to clear consciences. It will further facilitate open mindedness, particualrly as it pertains to worship services.
SUMMARY
From several of the statements made the groups fully recognised that what was being merged ar two toatlly different cultures. This was evident by phrases such as: - cross-pollinaiton, acceptance of worhsip differences, openmidneness, etc.
It is clear that certain statements contained strong political undertoneds: - in line with the political situation, racism will be removed, members will feel emancipated, free, liberated. There was also a deep concern as to what society would think or feel.
DISADVANTAGES
-------------------------
Cultural -- Language, whihc is basic to a culture, appears to be major problem. Should tow different cultures merge, there will be a fear of the unkonwn, since niether group really knows the other. There will aslso be the fear of domination of one group by the other, especially when numbers are considered. This will be noticed particularly at conference sessions.
Political -- Looking form the outside, it would seem that the government has determined the structure of the church by applying affirmative action. There is a feeling that the white membershiop will be disadvantaged.
Spiritual -- any forced unity will not change attitudes of people or bring about a change of heart. If the two confrences are forced to join, it will not change the hearts of people, and this could be a major problem and hide real unity.
CHURCH growth -- a merger will have a negative effect on evangelism, especially amongst the minority groups.
Financial There is a distinct possibility of the withholding of financial support int he event of a merger.
Leadership -- Due to our democratic system of Church governmentm a merged situation could lead to leadership not being representative of the minority groups.
Employment From the pastor's perspective, their work load would increase by having to pastor more chruches. From an adminsitrative perspective, there may be job losses.
Effects on Membership
a. The fear exists that many members may leave the Chruch, if the culture of the congregation changes. There is a fear that churches will be lost to the new members.
b. There is reason to belive that a separate white Regional Conference will come into being.
c. A gear of "lost identity" exists - where the influx of one culture takes over the existing culutre of a congregation.
SUMMARY
The one word whihc dominates the comments made by these six groups of mixed pastors is 'fear'. This fear found its way into almost every aspect discussed, but generally reglected frear from the minority white group. It was mainly a fear of loss -- loss of jobs, finances, church buildings, leadership, pensions, general resources. The impression is given that not only are cultural differences significant, but that the working conditions are also different.
It also became apparent that "unity" is defined differently by the various cultural groups.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 17:13:25 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Re: TC-TOC Merger
Lungani,
That was a very strong mail, my brother.
I think you might have misunderstood what pastor Letseli was saying. I didn't understand him to be saying that they set a goal of doubling the membership in order to meet the demands of the TC, nor that the goal of doubling the membership was set in order to improve the financial situation of the conference.
If you look at our news items in Masabatha Online you will realize that he sent us the same update about two months ago and it was not in the context of the TC/TOC merger then.
May be the statement "In the interim," might be what lead to the misunderstanding. My understanding of the TOC position is that they will focus their energy on evangelism not on the merger. If the TC wants the merger they are at liberty to contact them, the TOC will stop running after the TC as they have been doing so far. Another point that I think pastor Letseli was making was that they are already seeing the fruits of their new focus. To me this is a testimony of God's faithfulness, that when we focus on what we have been called to do, He will bless us, not only spiritually but also with material things. For a number of years now, the TOC have been freezing many of its plans because of the merger, e.g. conference plot etc., because of the merger, now that their eyes are opened God is blessing them. In fact the merger, not evangelism, was the most important item on the agenda of some of the previous TOC administrators.
I do agree with you when you say that they are some pastors who are not serious about their calling, as much as they are some lay members who are not serious about their calling. As you have pointed out there are pastors who are greedy for power as much as there are lay members who are greedy for power.
In all of this I have learnt to be more critical of myself than I am of a struggling brother/sister, as you have said before, may be I am the only Christ that he/she will ever see.
It won't be long!
Jeremiah
>>> "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> 09/07 6:45 AM >>>
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Dear Mr President,
You wrote:"In the interim, the TOC Constituency has planned to double
its current
membership [17 359] by the year 2001. This simply means that we have
rolled
our sleeves in order to engage ourselves in rigorous activities that
would
help us realise our goals. We still have townships, villages,
locations,
suburbs where there is no Adventist presence. We are beginning to see
the
signs of the envisaged growth because we have already baptised 939
persons
between 01/11/1998 and 31/03/1999. This numerical growth is also
coupled
with monetary growth."
My interest in this whole passage was not with how you counter
financial challanges you confront when persuing your unity with TC but
with how you abuse Christ's command :"Go ye therefore ..." I may be
getting this wrongly, but am I right if I interpret it like you have
this target of 34 718 total membership in the TOC for financial purposes
more than "spreading the word"? I do believe that our motives are not
Godly blessed if this is one of the primary reasons for target you have
put for your conference. I would even go as far as saying that we
should not even use this as an assumption on our finances - it seems, to
me, more like the exploitation of either the gospel or poor recruits.
The gospel is not products that has to be sold to convert souls leading
to the boost of the conference revenue. The gospel is to set souls free
from sin and the idea that they can do all through themselves and their
intelligence. It leads humans to realize that all things work best if
God is in the steering wheel of our decision making process in th
boardrooms.
I am mostly embarrassed by how we Adventist motivate ourselves to
preaching the word - especially the clergy. Some of the ministers and
church members would preach for recognition by either the office or by
fellow workers and church members. Other ministers would do this for
promotion to conference office of directorship, management to blame as
well because they do not look at leadership skills when appointing but
how you have been or are working in the field. May be poeple need to
apply for posts in our conferences since we seem to be following a
corporate management system.
When it comes to membership - let us do it for Christ and Christ only.
He will take care of the finances. We have survived till now what, our
churches are better than they have ever been before, what then can be
the problem, the merger or saving souls? I guess we can also rest
assured that we will never be like the Joneses nor can we will be like
the Petersens. Probably we need to practice the attitude of being
contented.
I am just airing my views meaning not to offend any soul.
God bless.
Lungani
>>> "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com> 09/06/99 08:43AM >>>
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com>
Dear President
The whole problem with this issue, whether you call it merger or unity
is
the lack of proper communication by the TOC and local church delegation
to
the constituency.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:26:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Witchcraft !!
Vusi,
I believe so too, but my main concern is whether a Christian can be
bewitched. I had a discussion with a friend recently on the matter and
he was of the opinion that as much as a child of God can suffer from
heart disease or cancer for that matter (which, like the rest of other
diseases are from the devil), a Christian can be afflicted by the evil
one through witchcraft.
I am then confused because I was under the impression or rather believe
that when I am with God the devil can do me no harm Job 5:19 He shall
deliver you in six troubles, Yes, in seven no evil shall touch you.
Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I
will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they
comfort me.
Ps 91:10 No evil shall befall you, Nor shall any plague come near your
dwelling;
HE IS THE GOOD SHEPHERD
--- vusi kaunda <vusi12@hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com>
>
> Machaka,
>
> I believe witchcraft is one of the principalities of
> darkeness the Bible
> mentions in the book of Ephesians.
>
>
>
> >From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >Subject: [sa-sda] Witchcraft !!
> >Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:06:41 -0700 (PDT)
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >From errors-265906-198-vusi12 Sun Sep 05 20:07:18
> 1999
> >Received: from [209.207.164.209] by hotmail.com
> (2.1) with ESMTP id
> >MHotMailB99C7AE50087D82197EBD1CFA4D159050; Sun Sep
> 05 20:07:18 1999
> >Received: (qmail 23462 invoked by alias); 6 Sep
> 1999 03:06:01 -0000
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> 1999 03:06:00 -0000
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> >From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
> >
> >
> >Greetings
> >
> >I have enjoyed the discussions that we had so far,
> quite interesting
> >and informative indeed. Thank you all for your
> contributions to the
> >list.
> >
> >My question today is, Is there such a thing as
> witchcraft? And if there
> >is, can a Christian be bewitched?
> >
> >Millicent
> >__________________________________________________
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>
> Vusi Kaunda
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 21:11:41 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Baptism.
Sam
Let us immerse ourselves in baptism while others are debating hot issues
like divorce. There is no unanimity as to the origin of baptism, but the
theories I gave seem to be commonly held. But note the following:
1. The fact that Jesus was baptised by John seem to indicate an approval
not only by Jesus but by God also.
2. We should also remember that John was a prophet and a forerunner of
Christ. His ministry could be viewed as a preview of Christ's ministry.
This would allow him access to sources we may not know of and would also
give him authority to revamp and transform the practise of baptism.
3. What Jesus commands in Matthew and Mark, was somehow prefigured in
John's ministry.
4. There is also a school of thought that maintains that baptism
substituted circumcision.
Concerning the reference, I think the SDA Bible Commentary can be of some
help (Vol 5, 297-298), another source would be the Dictionary of Jesus and
the Gospels, I wish I could give you more.
Excursus
What I found interesting, is that Christ says in Mark 16, towards the last
part, "Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not
believe will be condemned. My concern is that in the second statement,
Christ does not say, whoever does not believe and is not baptised will be
condemned.
It seems as if unbelief is sufficient for one to be condemned. It does not
matter what people do, if they do not believe they will be condemned. God
hates unbelief, and I think more than HE hates divorce. For a person may
not divorce, but if he does not believe he will be condemned together with
his sweetheart, if she does not believe also.
I think our discussion on divorce are moving to a point where we will
pronounce all those who are not divorced, saved, and those who are,
condemned. WE can baptise them and marry them,if they do not believe they
will be condemned.
Peace
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 06, 1999 8:35 AM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Baptism.
>From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za>
>
>Jongimpi
>
>I would like to thank you for your attempt,maybe if you can help me with
>the books that i can read about the theories of baptism before the cross
>or after the cross,for i was frustrated because no one attempted it,it
>is clear as mud at present i hope they will take it futher so that it
>can be clear as water.
>
>He is coming.
>
>Sam
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jongimpi Papu [SMTP:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
>> Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 9:26 AM
>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Baptism.
>>
>> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>>
>> Sam
>> The issue you have raised about baptism is a difficult one, maybe that
>> is
>> the reason why I have been trying to avoid it. I had hoped that some
>> would
>> be brave enough to attempt an answer.
>>
>> Let me try. Your concern is why did John encourage people to confess
>> their
>> sins and be baptised when the ceremonial laws were still in place.
>> These
>> laws among other things stipulated that if anyone sins, he had to
>> bring an
>> animal which would be sacrificed for the forgiveness of his sins. But
>> here
>> John is talking about baptism as a rite connected with confession of
>> sin,
>> did this therefore substitute the sacrificial rites?
>>
>> Scholars are not exactly certain as to the background of John's
>> baptism.
>> Two theories have been suggested, the first being that of the Jewish
>> Proselyte baptism. Here it is believed that the rite of baptism was
>> performed only once upon the Gentile convert, this served to cleanse
>> the
>> convert from moral and cultic impurity. But it should be noted that
>> John's
>> baptism was received by the Jews and as such was a significant
>> transformation from the Jewish proselyte practise.
>>
>> The second theory is that of the Qumran washings. This community
>> operated
>> outside the Temple and viewed the priests as evil and impure. Thus
>> its
>> only available rituals were baths and lustrations. True repentance
>> for
>> this community would be followed by cleansing in water. The
>> difference
>> between this rite and John's was that for the Qumran this was self
>> administered and done daily, but for John it was a once for all
>> initiatory
>> rite.
>>
>> It would appear therefore that the concept of baptism was not a new
>> one
>> altogether, even though John transformed it significantly.
>> It should also be noted that evidence is lacking to suggest that
>> baptism
>> substituted the ceremonial laws. The animal sacrifices were performed
>> well
>> up until 70 A.D. Remember it was the death of Christ that put an end
>> to
>> this laws and not baptism. The Jews who were baptised by John would
>> go on
>> and perform their sacrificial rites according to the law.
>>
>> Another thing worth considering is that, if John had sought in any
>> way to
>> do away with these laws, and in their place put baptism, he would have
>> suffered an immature death in the hands of the Jews. The absence of
>> any
>> confrontation with the Jews could be taken to imply that John's
>> baptism was
>> not viewed as substituting the ceremonial laws.
>>
>> I am sure my response is as clear as mud.
>>
>> Worthy is the Lamb
>>
>> Jongimpi
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za>
>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 8:05 AM
>> Subject: [sa-sda] Baptism.
>>
>>
>> >From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za>
>> >
>> >Dear Brethren
>> >
>> >This morning I was looking in the book of Mark 1 and my attention was
>> >drawn to verse 5"people from Jerusalem and from all over judea
>> traveled
>> >out into the wilderness to see and hear John.And when they confessed
>> >their sins,he baptized them in the Jordan river" and in my mind came
>> >this questions.I want to know how did they confess their sins,for I
>> >still believe that the ceremonial law was still applicable,and John
>> the
>> >Baptist baptized them after the confession not of their faults but of
>> >their sins?i want to know was there baptism before John the Baptist
>> and
>> >before Christ?
>> >
>> >
>> >soon and very soon we are going to see the King of kings.
>> >
>> >Sam
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Mashudu Ravhengani [SMTP:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:03 AM
>> >> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> >> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>> >>
>> >> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has written a book called: The Marriage
>> >> Covenant: A Biblical Study on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage. I
>> >> think it is the best book on this subject. I highly recommend it;
>> in
>> >> fact I was so impressed with the book I went and bought a 2nd copy.
>> It
>> >> can be found at the ABC.
>> >> You can also get some chapters of this book on the WEB; here is a
>> link
>> >> to chapter that deals with the issue of divorce:
>> >> http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/marriage/5.html (Those
>> without
>> >> web access send me a mail at masabatha@yahoo.com)
>> >>
>> >> The view that Bacchiocchi seem to be expressing is that God hates
>> >> divorce under any circumstances, including adultery (see his
>> arguments
>> >> in the above link). To address the issues raised by Jongimpi he
>> >> suggests a conditional separation (a cooling off period). In my
>> >> experience many couples who chose this option eventually found
>> >> solution to their problems.
>> >>
>> >> My problem is not necessarily whether people should divorce or not,
>> >> but how can we prevent a situation where people even think of
>> >> divorcing?
>> >> What are the things that cause one to think that divorce is the
>> best
>> >> solution? As Jongimpi has correctly pointed out, there are some
>> >> couples who are divorced while they still living together.
>> >> How do we prevent divorce in marriage and divorce out of marriage?
>> >>
>> >> Sorrow and mourning shall flee away!
>> >>
>> >> Jeremiah
>> >>
>> >> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/30 1:32 PM >>>
>> >> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>> >>
>> >> Ramo
>> >> I think that is a difficult question. I could easily say, God
>> does
>> >> not
>> >> allow for divorce, except when one partner has proved to be
>> >> unfaithful. I
>> >> believe this is true and Biblical, but where do we go from there?
>> >>
>> >> Sometimes when we say God does not approve of divorce we sound as
>> if
>> >> we are
>> >> saying he approves of one being abused and dehumanised. Some have
>> >> stayed
>> >> in such relationships preferring to die than to divorce, for God
>> hates
>> >> divorce, what does HE love?
>> >>
>> >> I think the solution here is that, according to our church manual,
>> >> which I
>> >> think is in harmony with the Bible in this instance. That if one
>> >> divorces
>> >> for reasons that are unbiblical, God does not recognise that as
>> >> divorce. In
>> >> the eyes of God the person is still married, not that he/she must
>> stay
>> >> in
>> >> the relationship, but is still regarded as married by God. He
>> >> therefore
>> >> cannot enter into any other marital relationship, as long as
>> his/her
>> >> partner
>> >> is still alive.
>> >>
>> >> God hates that which leads to divorce. And to my mind absence of
>> >> divorce
>> >> does not mean presence of happiness in a relationship.
>> >>
>> >> Two hearts that love God cannot be far apart!
>> >>
>> >> Jongimpi
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>> >> To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>> >> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 3:58 PM
>> >> Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>> >>
>> >> Jongimpi,
>> >>
>> >> Apart from those that are explicitly mentioned in the bible, does
>> God
>> >> allow
>> >> for divorce on other grounds (such as the ones you alluded to)?
>> >>
>> >> A lot of us have personal experience of living in families that
>> fell
>> >> apart
>> >> due to divorce and can bear witness to the fact that had the
>> marriage
>> >> not
>> >> ended, those involved would be worse off in many ways. While not
>> >> advocating
>> >> divorce, I think that grounds do exist for it in some cases.
>> >>
>> >> Having said all the above, I fully agree with you that if we follow
>> >> God's
>> >> lead prior to committing to anyone, we are setting ourselves up to
>> >> enjoy
>> >> marriage as God meant for us to enjoy it.
>> >>
>> >> Time doth softly, swiftly glide when there's love at home.
>> >>
>> >> Ramodise
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 21:36:37 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Boyce I read your input with keen interest. I must say it is a blessing to have people of your calibre in these discussions.
However I would like to know whether according to your understanding there never is a time when divorce can be justified. I seem to read in Matt. 19:9, that except for unfaithfulness - to me unfaithfulness is a biblical ground for divorce.
I Know I am going to be bombarded by the statement, "God hates divorce". I want to thank my colleagues in advance for this reminder. But why does God hate divorce? Is that the only thing HE hates. What if one divorces in spite of the fact that He hates it? One of the reasons why God hates divorce is that, it breaks or interrupts the lesson God wants us to give us concerning his relationship to us. God's covenant with His church is patterned after the marriage relationship, the church is the woman, the wife of Christ. God hates divorce, for God sent Jesus to die for the church because he would not divorce her, in spite of her sinfulness.
But there are instances in the OT, where God admits that the only way of helping Israel is to divorce her, and this was done because of her unfaithfulness, by falling in love with other gods. Israel as a Nation was finally divorced by God because of her refusal to be faithful.
God does not only hate divorce, He does not approve of it. As SDA's we believe that if one divorces on grounds that are not biblical, he remains married in the sight of God, and as such whoever marries him, commits adultery, as long as the divorced partner is still alive. Sometimes separation can bring a healing to a dying relationship, Jerry prefers to call it "cooling off", which to my mind can be permanent,for as long as the cause of the cooling off is still hot, one has to continue cooling off, to a point where he can freeze.
I am sure many will disagree with me on the above, but at least we can agree on the point that, divorce is not an unpardonable sin, and that God hates unfaithfulness and abuse which often leads to divorce which he also hates. Let us not limit God only to the result, He hates the cause also.
Lastly, I believe in forgiveness, but the way I understand it is that, a wife can divorce her husband and still forgive him, and she can forgive her husband but still divorce him.
Having said the above, I am sure some of the pastors will want to rebaptize me.
Love at Home
Jongimpi married to Nomthandazo.
-----Original Message-----
From: Adv. Boyce Mkhize <bhizaman@aec.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 3:22 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] re : Plague of divorce & Household Issue
Firstly, I am an old member of this forum who just disappeared due to technological and work pressure reasons. I am happy to be back. Secondly, I would like to raise a household issue, namely, whether it will not be prudent to discuss/debat one topic and allocate a specific period to it or whatever yardstick before moving on to the next topic. I say so because, I was battling to choose which subject I must respond to, divorce or TC/TOC merger, both interesting subjects. This will enable us to at least have our site manager summarise the key points or issues arising out of each subject for future use at the conclusion of each debate, although we know, there may be fresh information in future on the same subject that members may wish to share. Perhaps, a point to ponder upon.
Thirdly, my contribution to the divorce debate :
I have listened with interest to the various submissions and theories on the causes of divorce. I am not certain whether it is necessary to engage in a somewhat fishing expidition trying to ascertain or identify a grocery list of items or elements that cause a divorce. May be it is necessary to determine whether the means justify the end. But perhaps more importantly is whether or not, the end (divorce) will ever be justifiable irrespective of the circumstances. I will come to this point a bit later. I want to submit that there is only one cause for divorce, and that is, the inability of spouses to reconcile their different positions and therefore their subsequent attachment to each other thereafter is deliberately loosened.
In South African law, the court can only pronounce a decree of divorce if and only if the marriage has irretrievably broken down with no prospect of resuming a normal marriage relationship between the spouses. What causes the irretreviable breakdown of a marriage is of course a material factor in determining whether or not there exists a ground for the annulment of a marriage. But more importantly, the inquiry is to what extent that factor has led to the marriage breaking down irretreviably. The inquiry therefore, is whether or not the different positions caused by whatever, are still capable of being reconciled. If they can be reconciled, divorce may not be granted.
This issue can be spiritualised and also pragmatised. If you want to spiritualise, you may say, our marriage relationship with God could be regarded as irretreviably broken down as a result of the Eden fall. All that needed to happen was a decree of divorce that would condemn humanity to eternal death as promised. However, Christ reconciled Himself to us and us to Him through His death and therefore the marriage was saved. If the marriage with Christ could be saved as it was, would it be impossible for any other marriage to be saved? If the cause of divorce in our example was disobedience which led to murder and humiliation of Christ (a terribly grevious offence and sin) could be forgiven, aren't we supposed to emulate Christ in how we deal with our spouses?
In condering pragmatism, the question is always, will I ever be able to trust him/her anymore after betraying my trust like this? Perhaps true. When he/she says she has a meeting in the evening, the thought rings, it could be a meeting with that man with whom she committed adultery. So trust becomes an issue and the question is whether one can remain in a relationship where fear is the order of the day.
I say yes, because God says rejoice always, even in times of utmost adversity. I say yes because marriage is not about convenience but also does go under the shadow of inconvenience. We acknowledge this when we vow and make our commitment to stay together till death do us part. I say yes because it was not convenience that brought Christ down to live like humans, endure the stinking stable at His birth and the humiliating death. It was not convenience that made Him loose His life. So we must accept that marriage life may and sometimes will be inconvenient. The degrees may differ, but I guess the extreme of all is death. If Christ could at the verge of His death still say, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do', it means any sin/wrong/hurt is capable of being forgiven. If Stephan could say the similar words while bleeding from stone cuts, then humanity can still forgive.
This is not easy for we are not prone to forgiving. But the Master Forgiver is capable of doing it through us. We may not be capable of enduring the humiliation of an adulterous spouse and the stigma attached thereto, but Hosea could do it through Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all of use could imagine.
So divorce is like an urge to give in when the storm rages high. It depends whether you allow the cup to pass or you say Lord, let not my will be done by Thine. You see religion is not a joke. It is a paradox and the more one is able to stay on the right side of the paradox, the better his/her Christian life becomes.
I have spoken for long.....food for thought
Boyce Mkhize
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 08:58:08 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Re: TC-TOC Merger
Mashudu,
My apologies, my fellow Adventists, I guess I should have given it a
global view instead of looking at just a statement and not make noise
where they are not needed. However, I still wish to discourage some
South African Adventist from their attitude towards the work of God.
Pastor Letseli, my apologies, Sir, for not paying relevant attention
to what you were addressing. I guess I should have addressed the issue
seperately - its just that it has been my frustration since the days
when I was still a pastor. I am sorry, even to you all.
Lungani
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 09/07/99 11:13PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Lungani,
That was a very strong mail, my brother.
I think you might have misunderstood what pastor Letseli was saying. I
didn't understand him to be saying that they set a goal of doubling the
membership in order to meet the demands of the TC, nor that the goal of
doubling the membership was set in order to improve the financial
situation of the conference.
If you look at our news items in Masabatha Online you will realize that
he sent us the same update about two months ago and it was not in the
context of the TC/TOC merger then.
May be the statement "In the interim," might be what lead to the
misunderstanding. My understanding of the TOC position is that they will
focus their energy on evangelism not on the merger. If the TC wants the
merger they are at liberty to contact them, the TOC will stop running
after the TC as they have been doing so far. Another point that I think
pastor Letseli was making was that they are already seeing the fruits of
their new focus. To me this is a testimony of God's faithfulness, that
when we focus on what we have been called to do, He will bless us, not
only spiritually but also with material things. For a number of years
now, the TOC have been freezing many of its plans because of the merger,
e.g. conference plot etc., because of the merger, now that their eyes
are opened God is blessing them. In fact the merger, not evangelism, was
the most important item on the agenda of some of the previous TOC
administrators.
I do agree with you when you say that they are some pastors who are not
serious about their calling, as much as they are some lay members who
are not serious about their calling. As you have pointed out there are
pastors who are greedy for power as much as there are lay members who
are greedy for power.
In all of this I have learnt to be more critical of myself than I am of
a struggling brother/sister, as you have said before, may be I am the
only Christ that he/she will ever see.
It won't be long!
Jeremiah
>>> "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za> 09/07 6:45 AM >>>
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Dear Mr President,
You wrote:"In the interim, the TOC Constituency has planned to double
its current
membership [17 359] by the year 2001. This simply means that we have
rolled
our sleeves in order to engage ourselves in rigorous activities that
would
help us realise our goals. We still have townships, villages,
locations,
suburbs where there is no Adventist presence. We are beginning to see
the
signs of the envisaged growth because we have already baptised 939
persons
between 01/11/1998 and 31/03/1999. This numerical growth is also
coupled
with monetary growth."
My interest in this whole passage was not with how you counter
financial challanges you confront when persuing your unity with TC
but
with how you abuse Christ's command :"Go ye therefore ..." I may be
getting this wrongly, but am I right if I interpret it like you have
this target of 34 718 total membership in the TOC for financial
purposes
more than "spreading the word"? I do believe that our motives are not
Godly blessed if this is one of the primary reasons for target you
have
put for your conference. I would even go as far as saying that we
should not even use this as an assumption on our finances - it seems,
to
me, more like the exploitation of either the gospel or poor recruits.
The gospel is not products that has to be sold to convert souls
leading
to the boost of the conference revenue. The gospel is to set souls
free
from sin and the idea that they can do all through themselves and
their
intelligence. It leads humans to realize that all things work best if
God is in the steering wheel of our decision making process in th
boardrooms.
I am mostly embarrassed by how we Adventist motivate ourselves to
preaching the word - especially the clergy. Some of the ministers and
church members would preach for recognition by either the office or by
fellow workers and church members. Other ministers would do this for
promotion to conference office of directorship, management to blame as
well because they do not look at leadership skills when appointing but
how you have been or are working in the field. May be poeple need to
apply for posts in our conferences since we seem to be following a
corporate management system.
When it comes to membership - let us do it for Christ and Christ only.
He will take care of the finances. We have survived till now what,
our
churches are better than they have ever been before, what then can be
the problem, the merger or saving souls? I guess we can also rest
assured that we will never be like the Joneses nor can we will be like
the Petersens. Probably we need to practice the attitude of being
contented.
I am just airing my views meaning not to offend any soul.
God bless.
Lungani
>>> "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com> 09/06/99 08:43AM >>>
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com>
Dear President
The whole problem with this issue, whether you call it merger or unity
is
the lack of proper communication by the TOC and local church
delegation
to
the constituency.
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 06:22:55 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Fw: ANN Bulletin: Sept 7, 1999
fyi
Shirley
-----Original Message-----
From: adventistnews@lists.gc.adventist.org
<adventistnews@lists.gc.adventist.org>
To: adventistnews@lists.gc.adventist.org
<adventistnews@lists.gc.adventist.org>
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 09:37
Subject: ANN Bulletin: Sept 7, 1999
ANN Bulletin
Adventist News Network
Seventh-day Adventist Church World Headquarters
September 7, 1999
In This Issue:
* Yemen: Bomb Attack Damages Adventist Aid Agency Office
* Crime and Violence in Jamaica Addressed by "Reclaiming Our Families
2000" Event
* Brazil: Minority Peoples' Group Supported by Adventists
* Mongolia: Adventist Church Membership "Up by One-Third"
* Andrews University Improves Ranking in "Best College List"
-------------------
Yemen: Bomb Attack Damages Adventist Aid Agency Office
Sana'a, Republic of Yemen....[ANN]
Staff and visitors at the Adventist Development and Relief Agency
(ADRA) building in Yemen were rudely awakened early Saturday morning
when a bomb exploded at a supermarket one block from the ADRA building,
according to Bill Dysinger, ADRA Yemen director. The ADRA building
sustained minor damage, but no one was seriously injured.
"Our day started at 2 a.m. with a roar," explains Dysinger, who is
staying at the ADRA building along with his wife Yvonne. Also in the
building were Jim Neergaard, former ADRA Middle East director who is in
Yemen for the final evaluation of ADRA Yemen's child survival project,
and Ken and Challis Fry, new program directors of ADRA Yemen's
initiatives in Hais.
"Jim was the only one injured," Dysinger continues. "He was awakened
prior to the blast by the garage doors rattling below his window. He
was preparing to go to the window when the explosion took place and the
window frame sailed past him, grazing his chest slightly. We're
grateful he wasn't more seriously hurt."
The ADRA building, which includes an apartment for the director and his
wife, guest rooms, and the ADRA office, is located only 250 yards
(227.5 meters) from the City Center Supermarket, the first
American-style supermarket in Yemen. Damage to the ADRA building
includes the front office door that was blown from its hinges; the
basement metal garage doors that are buckled and bent; all of the
windows in the front of the building are broken; and at least half of
the remaining windows are broken. No computers or other office
equipment appears to be damaged. Authorities arrive today to assess the
damage.
The explosion was reportedly caused by a car bomb, containing half a
ton of TNT. It completely destroyed the supermarket and damaged
buildings up to a kilometer (.62 miles) away, particularly blowing out
windows and doors, according to Dysinger. "Also flying debris from the
metal roof and walls of the supermarket were scattered over several
blocks, landing on other buildings, in trees, on the roads, etc.," he
adds.
Dysinger's son, Edwin, who was staying a few miles down the road from
the ADRA building, adds, "I also heard secondary explosions and a fair
bit of small arms fire coming from the same direction as the blast,
apparently due to excited people shooting into the air. The City Center
was just a mass of twisted metal."
"We have been impressed with the way the Yemeni authorities have
handled the disaster," says Dysinger. "By yesterday evening, the main
street was open again, and most of the debris was cleared away. We
still don't know the reason for the blast, although there are many
rumors. Two other bombs exploded in Aden and Zinjibar on Friday night,
but we do not know if they were connected to this one," adds Dysinger.
At least two deaths are reported, although there are conflicting
reports as to the final number. [Beth Schaefer]
Crime and Violence in Jamaica Addressed by "Reclaiming Our Families
2000" Event
Kingston, Jamaica...[ANN]
The Central Jamaica Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, in response
to growing concerns over crime rates and violent incidents in that
country, organized "Reclaiming Our Families 2000." The event brought
together representatives from many sectors of Jamaican society and
stressed the importance of prayer as a healing factor.
"The mix of political and civic representatives emphasizes our
collective need for prayer and sends a positive message to Jamaica,"
said pastor Leon Wellington, president of the West Indies Union of
Seventh-day Adventists. "It also assures people that God is still in
control."
Attendees from the academic community, the music industry, politics,
and other cultural segments gathered at Le Meridien Jamaica Pegasus
Hotel on September 2 for the meeting. The prayer breakfast included
songs, prayers, and speeches which urged Jamaicans to return to the
values of religion, family, and personal and social responsibility.
Speakers included Arnold Bertram, Local Government Minister, Olivia
"Babsy" Grange, Jamaica Labor Party MP, and Dr. Herbert Thompson,
President of Northern Caribbean University. [Heather Brannan]
Brazil: Minority Peoples' Group Supported by Adventists
Belém, Brazil....[ANN]
A group formed to defend the rights of minority peoples in Brazil,
particularly indigenous indians, is being supported by the Seventh-day
Adventist Church.
The "Grupo Executivo de Defesa dos Direitos de Índios e Negros" was
appointed by Pará state governor Dr. Almir Gabriel on August 26 at the
Palácio dos Despachos in Belém. Representing the Adventist Church was
Pastor Jael Eneas, communication director for the region.
"Even though the ideal for all cannot be achieved, we must try to make
a difference," said Governor Gabriel. "It will be possible, working
together with love, goodwill and ability."
The Adventist Church is committed to supporting human rights around the
world and works actively, particularly in the area of religious
freedom. [Jael Eneas/Jonathan Gallagher]
Mongolia: Adventist Church Membership "Up by One-Third"
Ulan Bator, Mongolia...[ANN]
Still developing its presence in Mongolia, the youthful Seventh-day
Adventist Church increased its official membership by one-third on
August 28. The baptism of twelve people in the Ulan Bator Church was
also the first time anyone over age 25 has been baptized in Mongolia.
More than 70 people regularly worship each week in Ulan Bator, the
capital of Mongolia. Others worship in home churches in the city and in
rural areas. Many of these worship groups are run by teenagers in a
church dominated by young people.
With the breakdown of communism in the mid-1990s, Mongolia became more
open to religious activity. Although historically a Buddhist country,
during the communist years all religious activity was actively
suppressed. Today younger people tend to be atheistic, while some of
the older people retain links to Buddhism.
"There's an exciting new climate of discovery of spiritual things,"
says Gary Krause, Communication director for the Adventist Church's
Global Mission program. "In the Adventist Church in Mongolia, the
experienced, senior members are in their late 20s. We're happy for a
young church here in Mongolia who really want to accomplish their
mission." [Jonathan Gallagher]
Andrews University Improves Ranking in "Best College List"
Berrien Springs, Michigan, USA...[ANN]
Andrews University, a Seventh-day Adventist institution of higher
learning, improved its ranking in the widely-read "Best College List"
produced by the U.S. News and World Report magazine.
The University, which has been listed among the best colleges for ten
years, moved from rank 228 last year to 176 this year in the report,
which ran in the August 23 issue. It also ranked high in the area of
international and racial diversity as well as academic reputation.
"We are extremely gratified that our strengths as a national
research-oriented University have been recognized in a well-known
rating system," commented Gary Ross, assistant to the Andrews
University president, Niels-Erik Andreasen. "We were already told by
several accrediting organizations that we had radically strengthened
various components of the University, so this rating just confirms what
we believed to be the case from our accreditors."
While the data for the report is variously collected and is based on
self-reporting, the rankings are significant as a basis for those
making college choices this fall. Commenting on the report, Ross also
indicated that the religious basis of the University was an important
part of its ethos and commitment.
"This also demonstrates that a pervasively religious institution of
higher learning is not to be overlooked in the rating of educational
institutions," said Ross. "One of our accreditors commented favorably
on the fact that our Statement of Mission permeates the whole campus."
Andrews University, established in 1874, provides a wide range of
study and research opportunities through its numerous degree programs
as part of the Seventh-day Adventist Church's global education system.
[Jonathan Gallagher]
-------------------
12501 Old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, Maryland, USA 20904-6600.
(301) 680-6306.
CompuServe address: 74532,2611. News Bulletin is a review of news and
information issued by the Communication Department from the Seventh-day
Adventist Church World Headquarters and released as part of the service
of Adventist News Network. It is being made available primarily to
religious news
editors. Our news includes dispatches from the Church's international
offices and the world headquarters. The information provided in the
Bulletin may be reproduced without permission providing that the source
"Adventist News Network" is acknowledged.
ANN Staff: Ray Dabrowski, director; Jonathan Gallagher, news director;
Heather Brannan, editorial assistant. Copyright Adventist News Network
1999.
-----
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:13:29 +0200
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@nwpg.org.za>
Subject: Re: Witchcraft !!
Machaka,
As a Christian I have always believed that whitchcraft is in a way Satanism
which has a lot to do with demon possesion. I have also observed that
people who think they are bewhitched see "things", and often their
interpretation of events is not practical. Most of them are susceptible to
demon possession.
Psams 90: 1 says; "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High
shall abide in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the
shadow of the Almighty." This means that as long as one is in the presence
of God, he/she is under His shadow.
A friend once told me that her former colleage who is a Satanist once said
to her "if Christians new how much Powerful God is, they wouldn't take
their religion and God lightly. Even Satan does not possess such powers."
This statement simply shows us that as long as God is protecting us no evil
powers can befall us. The only method a whitch can manage to harm a
Christian is through food poisining, but still as John said; "Ye are of
God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is
in you, than he that is in the world." 1 John 4: 4.
His protection is with us always.
----------
> From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Witchcraft !!
> Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 4:26 AM
>
> From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
>
> Vusi,
>
> I believe so too, but my main concern is whether a Christian can be
> bewitched. I had a discussion with a friend recently on the matter and
> he was of the opinion that as much as a child of God can suffer from
> heart disease or cancer for that matter (which, like the rest of other
> diseases are from the devil), a Christian can be afflicted by the evil
> one through witchcraft.
>
> I am then confused because I was under the impression or rather believe
> that when I am with God the devil can do me no harm Job 5:19 He shall
> deliver you in six troubles, Yes, in seven no evil shall touch you.
> Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I
> will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they
> comfort me.
> Ps 91:10 No evil shall befall you, Nor shall any plague come near your
> dwelling;
>
> HE IS THE GOOD SHEPHERD
>
> --- vusi kaunda <vusi12@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Machaka,
> >
> > I believe witchcraft is one of the principalities of
> > darkeness the Bible
> > mentions in the book of Ephesians.
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
> > >Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> > >To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> > >Subject: [sa-sda] Witchcraft !!
> > >Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:06:41 -0700 (PDT)
> > >MIME-Version: 1.0
> > >From errors-265906-198-vusi12 Sun Sep 05 20:07:18
> > 1999
> > >Received: from [209.207.164.209] by hotmail.com
> > (2.1) with ESMTP id
> > >MHotMailB99C7AE50087D82197EBD1CFA4D159050; Sun Sep
> > 05 20:07:18 1999
> > >Received: (qmail 23462 invoked by alias); 6 Sep
> > 1999 03:06:01 -0000
> > >Received: (qmail 23455 invoked from network); 6 Sep
> > 1999 03:06:00 -0000
> > >Received: from unknown (HELO web802.mail.yahoo.com)
> > (128.11.23.62) by
> > >pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 6 Sep 1999 03:05:59
> > -0000
> > >Message-ID:
> > <19990906030642.20418.rocketmail@web802.mail.yahoo.com>
> > >Received: from [207.172.199.253] by
> > web802.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 05 Sep 1999
> > >20:06:41 PDT
> > >Mailing-List: list sa-sda@onelist.com; contact
> > sa-sda-owner@onelist.com
> > >Delivered-To: mailing list sa-sda@onelist.com
> > >Precedence: bulk
> > >List-Unsubscribe:
> > <mailto:sa-sda-unsubscribe@ONElist.com>
> > >
> > >From: Machaka Ravhengani <mravhengani@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > >
> > >Greetings
> > >
> > >I have enjoyed the discussions that we had so far,
> > quite interesting
> > >and informative indeed. Thank you all for your
> > contributions to the
> > >list.
> > >
> > >My question today is, Is there such a thing as
> > witchcraft? And if there
> > >is, can a Christian be bewitched?
> > >
> > >Millicent
> > >__________________________________________________
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> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >The King is even at the door!
> > >====
> > >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails
> > to sa-sda@onelist.com
> > >To subscribe: send a blank email
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> > sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >
> >
> > Vusi Kaunda
> > Information Resource Center
> > US Information Service
> > Ph 27 11 982 5580
> > Fx 27 11 982 5844
> > vusi12@hotmail.com
> > PO Box 1762
> > Houghton
> > 2041
> > http://www.usia.gov/posts/pretoria
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> >
>
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