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There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. RE: Baptism.
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
2. TC-TOC Merger
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
3. New member
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xxx.xxx
4. Fw: The Sense of a Goose
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xxx.xxx
5. Re: TC-TOC Merger
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
6. RE: New member
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
7. RE: New member
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@xxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
8. RE: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
9. RE: TC-TOC Merger
From: Tshivhenga Takalani * Group <TakalaniT@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
10. Introduction
From: MLAMLI PAPU <papu@iafrica.com>
11. RE: Introduction
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
12. Re: Fw: Researchers deplore dearth of marriage stats
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
13. Hi
From: "Errol" <errol@xxx.xx.xxx
14. RE: Hi
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 04:09:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Baptism.
Sam,
Don't be frustrated, many of us are quiet because we just don't know
what to say. You have asked a very though question.
He is coming!
Jeremiah
--- Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za> wrote:
> From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za>
>
> Jongimpi
>
> I would like to thank you for your attempt,maybe if you can help me
> with
> the books that i can read about the theories of baptism before the
> cross
> or after the cross,for i was frustrated because no one attempted
> it,it
> is clear as mud at present i hope they will take it futher so that
> it
> can be clear as water.
>
> He is coming.
>
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 05:41:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: TC-TOC Merger
We need to be careful not to start bashing the TC without first
hearing their point of view. I know we do have some members of the TC
in this list, may be they can give us the position of the TC on this
matter.
Does anybody out there have an email address of the President of the
TC? Please send it to masabatha@yahoo.com. May be we can then hear it
from the horse's mouth.
I wonder what are the benefits of the merger/unity. I wonder what are
the experiences of those conferences that have merged.
Does the merger encourage evangelism and church growth?
What are the spiritual benefits of the merger?
The 1995 union session has taught some of us that there can still
division within the merger. Two Unions can exist under one name.
So what is better, to have two separate conferences or put two
conferences under one roof/name? Is the merger just change of the
name? Is that why we are so concerned about the name of the new
entity? We try to make sure that the organization still bears a part
of our old name: Southern Union Conference, Southern Hope, etc In the
TOC&TC we will probably have a new conference called the Trans
Conference.
Are they now having one Camp Meeting in the KWAZULU NATAL-FREE STATE
CONFERENCE or they are still having 'separate but equal' Camp
Meetings?
My question still remains; do we really need the merger?
He is coming!
Jeremiah
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:48:54 +0200
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: New member
Hello everyone,
My name is Tselane Letseli, I joined onelist last week. You are discussing
quite interesting issues and I hope to send in my contributions in the near
future.
I just wanted to share with some beautiful poems sent to me by good
friends. I hope you'll find them refreshing as I did.
God bless.
Tselane Letseli
Bursaries and Grants
Phone : +27 0140 873309
Fax : + 27 0140 873759
Cell : 082 464 2916
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:51:48 +0200
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Fw: The Sense of a Goose
----------
> From: Lebo.Kamohi@rmb.co.za
> To: Tletseli@nwpg.org.za; NHLAPO, Nono <nnhlapo@indosuez.co.za>
> Subject: Fwd: The Sense of a Goose
> Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 10:53 AM
>
>
> The following was forwarded to me and struck me as very appropriate and
> something that we might learn to do better.
>
> "When you see geese flying along in "V" formation, you might consider
> what
> science has discovered as to why they fly that way. As each bird flaps
> its
> wings, it creates an uplift for the bird immediately following. By
> flying
> in "V" formation, the whole flock adds at least 71 percent greater
> flying
> range than if each bird flew on its own.
>
> People who share a common direction and sense of community can get where
> they are going more quickly and easily because they are traveling on the
> thrust of one another.
> When a goose falls out of formation, it suddenly feels the drag and
> resistance of trying to go it alone - and quickly gets back into
> formation
> to take advantage of the lifting power of the bird in front.
>
> If we have as much sense as a goose, we will stay in formation with
> those
> people who are headed the same way we are. When the head goose gets
> tired,
> it rotates back in the wing and another goose flies point.
> It is sensible to take turns doing demanding jobs, whether with people
> or
> with geese flying south.
>
> Geese honk from behind to encourage those up front to keep up their
> speed.
> What messages do we give when we honk from behind?
>
> Finally - and this is important - when a goose gets sick or is wounded
> by
> gunshot, and falls out of formation, two other geese fall out with that
> goose and follow it down to lend help and protection.
>
> They stay with the fallen goose until it is able to fly or until it
> dies,
> and only then do they launch out on their own, or with another formation
> to
> catch up with their group.
>
> If we have the sense of a goose, we will stand by each other like that."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 15:47:49 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: TC-TOC Merger
Jerry,
May be we do need one conference office in the TC-TOC territtory. But
this need not be driven by external pressures, whether politically or by
mere observation of other churches. It need not be an imperative action
either, because it surely will not work out as it would have if the
constituency saw the internal reason for the merger/unity. A person
convinced against his beliefs is still of the same conviction.
What I am trying to say is that may be it is not the right time for us
to force and foster this unity if the hearts are not yet ready.
It surprises me, though, that it is the PROPHETIC CHURCH OF THE LAST
DAYS that fails to live us to its own teachings. This actually is a
dissappointment. May be one should just hold on to the knowledge that
our Father in heaven is one and will never give divided attention to
those who worship him in truth.
Even though come Lord Jesus.
Lungani
>>> Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com> 09/06/99 02:41PM >>>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:50:51 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: New member
Welcome Tselani,
I have been waiting for someone like you. There are very few ladies who
contribute here. Just think what the world would be like without women.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tselane Letseli [mailto:tletseli@nwpg.org.za]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 3:49 PM
To: Sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: [sa-sda] New member
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@nwpg.org.za>
Hello everyone,
My name is Tselane Letseli, I joined onelist last week. You are discussing
quite interesting issues and I hope to send in my contributions in the near
future.
I just wanted to share with some beautiful poems sent to me by good
friends. I hope you'll find them refreshing as I did.
God bless.
Tselane Letseli
Bursaries and Grants
Phone : +27 0140 873309
Fax : + 27 0140 873759
Cell : 082 464 2916
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:03:13 +0200
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@xxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: New member
Tselane,
Fancy seeing your here! Welcome, and thank you (you know what for).
Keep writing in.
Ramodise
-----Original Message-----
From: Bangisi, Nikelo [mailto:NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 15:51
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] New member
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
Welcome Tselani,
I have been waiting for someone like you. There are very few ladies who
contribute here. Just think what the world would be like without women.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tselane Letseli [mailto:tletseli@nwpg.org.za]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 3:49 PM
To: Sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: [sa-sda] New member
From: "Tselane Letseli" <tletseli@nwpg.org.za>
Hello everyone,
My name is Tselane Letseli, I joined onelist last week. You are discussing
quite interesting issues and I hope to send in my contributions in the near
future.
I just wanted to share with some beautiful poems sent to me by good
friends. I hope you'll find them refreshing as I did.
God bless.
Tselane Letseli
Bursaries and Grants
Phone : +27 0140 873309
Fax : + 27 0140 873759
Cell : 082 464 2916
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
ONElist announces "FRIENDS & FAMILY!"
For details, including our weekly drawing, go to
http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:20:52 PDT
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Re: Plague of Divorce
WHAT ARE THE REAL ROOTS OF DIVORCE? iS NOT TRUE THAT GOD HATES DIVORCE EVEN
IF POEPLE DO it? THE REASON WHY HE HATES IT, IS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE DOING IT
AND IT IS WRONG. God hates and we need to find the courses of divorce.
I believe that the following reasons are the great courses of divorce: 1.
Poor and luck of communication.
2. Financial problems.
3. Third parties e.g. in-laws, friends and Jobs.
4. Too much of Jealousy which courses you to trust our spouse.
5. luck of fellowship with God and one another.
6. luck of appreciating of each other.
You may add the list and I could not I do not have time like many of you do.
Which out on those because many good marriages have been destroyed because
of not taking care of the above issues.
Paul Mbedzi.
>From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: "'sa-sda@onelist.com'" <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:38:24 +0200
>
>From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>
>Jongimpi,
>
>Apart from those that are explicitly mentioned in the bible, does God allow
>for divorce on other grounds (such as the ones you alluded to)?
>
>A lot of us have personal experience of living in families that fell apart
>due to divorce and can bear witness to the fact that had the marriage not
>ended, those involved would be worse off in many ways. While not advocating
>divorce, I think that grounds do exist for it in some cases.
>
>Having said all the above, I fully agree with you that if we follow God's
>lead prior to committing to anyone, we are setting ourselves up to enjoy
>marriage as God meant for us to enjoy it.
>
>Time doth softly, swiftly glide when there's love at home.
>
>Ramodise
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
>Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 18:34
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>
>
>Tankiso, and those who shared some insights on divorce
>
>Why are so many people divorcing? Well the most qualified to answer, are
>probably those who have gone through the experience. At the end of this
>short discussion I would like to share one or two things I think we should
>do to stop this scourge.
>
>If they should not divorce what should they do? Be battered and finally
>murdered in a relationship? Be emotionally and psychologically abused to
>the extent that they lose their humanity and dignity in the process? Sit
>by
>to baby sit the children that have been fathered or mothered by the spouse
>in some extra marital relationship? Blessed are those who die in their
>marital relationship for to them belongs the kingdom of God? Blessed are
>those who suffer and are humiliated and their trust betrayed, for great is
>their reward in heaven. Cursed is the person who divorces his/her spouse
>for God hates divorce.
>
> I know it may be very easy for some of us to theorise on this issue.
>The above represent some of the reasons why people divorce, if we say they
>should not divorce, we should also be bold enough to tell them what they
>should do. Here is my list of things we can do, to prevent the factors
>that
>led to divorce.
>
> 1. The church should stop teaching that Marriage is a must -
> Many in support of this false teaching have misused what God said to Adam,
>"It is not good for man to be alone..." as meaning that all should get
>married. I do not think that this was referring to us but to Adam, if it
>is
>true, then where do we put Christ? Because many believe that there is
>something wrong if they do not marry, they throw themselves at the first
>person that says I want to marry you, and this is often the reason for
>divorce. Marriage become the reason for one's existence, this reminds me
>of the ante-deluvians!
>
> 2. There is no Biblical support for a "rib theory"
>Because Eve was taken from the side of Adam, some have deduced from this,
>that every person has a rib somewhere that belongs to him or her. This
>cannot make sense, for how many ribs can a person have? What if the first
>spouse dies after a year or twenty, was that your rib? Will the second
>person be your rib too? Or are we talking about one rib at a time?
>People
>divorce thinking that they married a wrong person, and they start a long
>search for a lost rib/person that was created for him/her. The person you
>marry is the right one, make things work, there is no better one anywhere,
>that is my opinion.
>
> 3. Love has been over-romanticised
>Today many of those who say they are in love prove to be in love with
>love. They love the feeling they are experiencing and when that
>disappears, they go searching for a person who will provoke that feeling.
>Love is a principle and not a feeling (EG White somewhere). The best
>definition of love is found in 1 Cor. 13, maybe we need to read it often.
>Because God has been removed from love, love has become a destructive
>feeling that knows no limits.
>
> 4 Marriage thrives in Interdependence and not Codependence
>We have taught and have come to believe that in order to be romantic, we
>must psyche ourselves into believing that we cannot do without our
>spouses. What we call love is nothing but obsession. You frequently hear
>people saying to each other, "You are my life, without you, I would die,
>what can I do without you? This to me is a language of worship and not
>love. Many people are worshipping their spouse, and as such make
>themselves vulnerable to abuse. People should be encouraged to be
>independent, to be able to stand on their own, Marriage is not an
>institution for people who are sick or those who need happiness. Let
>people find happiness before and not in marriage. Sharing must take place
>in marriage and not "sucking". We should find God first before we can
>commit ourselves to anyone, anything less than this is a recipe for
>disaster.
>
> 5.Wait, let me stop, for now, and give you a chance to engage with the
>above.
>
>Divorce is a serious matter, so should our discussion, simplistic solution
>will not do.
>
>Marriage is a holy institution but not every union is holy -
>
>Love at home
>
>Jongimpi
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tankiso Letseli < tletseli@mweb.co.za <mailto:tletseli@mweb.co.za> >
>To: SA-SDA < sa-sda@onelist.com <mailto:sa-sda@onelist.com> >
>Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:53 PM
>Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>
>
>I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging from
>salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and
>seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is fast
>becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There were times
>when
>we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of divorce in our ranks. I
>think we are coming to a point where an Adventist will know someone or a
>case in his/her local church which is divorce-related. The same is true
>with HIV/AIDS challenge. When you say or quote this statement: "God hates
>divorce!" I can almost hear a person remarking: "So What? - Who cares?"
>I
>think the issue or plague of divorce will need an approach that is more
>than
>quoting the Scriptures - "God hates divorce." An approach that will go
>beyond marital counselling - to the core of the problem. I do not have this
>approach, too. I am still searching. May be our discussions will help give
>birth to this envisaged approach.
>
> Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or conflicts by way of
>divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that bar or
>discourage them from taking that route. And some of them prefer to divorce
>in spite of many many reasons that should keep them together. But they
>still
>prefer to go the "divorce" way. May be the cause is not in divorce,
>because
>"divorce" is a by-product or a result of an eroded relationship between the
>affected parties, and to a certain extend - an eroded relationship between
>an individual and his/her God. I sympathise with those who are also their
>journey to find a solution to this problem.
>
>Tankiso Letseli
>tletseli@mweb.co.za <mailto:tletseli@mweb.co.za>
>
>
>
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>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:47:37 +0200
From: Tshivhenga Takalani * Group <TakalaniT@xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: TC-TOC Merger
Hey friends
My personal opinion is that merger of two conferences i.e. TC and TOC is a
nice to have. Why don't we forget it and preach the word untill the lord
returns.
I ponder, what if Abraham and Lot did not separate and each go their own
way, some of us would not be marveling the care and love of the good lord
when He went out of His way to follow Lot from Sodom.
Of course we have to care about them but I feel let them go on and serve
their Lord the way that satisfies their calling.
He is even at the door.
Takalani wa Tshivhenga
-----Original Message-----
From: Lungani Mfeka [mailto:MfekaL@telkom.co.za]
Sent: 06 September 1999 15:48
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] TC-TOC Merger
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Jerry,
May be we do need one conference office in the TC-TOC territtory. But
this need not be driven by external pressures, whether politically or by
mere observation of other churches. It need not be an imperative action
either, because it surely will not work out as it would have if the
constituency saw the internal reason for the merger/unity. A person
convinced against his beliefs is still of the same conviction.
What I am trying to say is that may be it is not the right time for us
to force and foster this unity if the hearts are not yet ready.
It surprises me, though, that it is the PROPHETIC CHURCH OF THE LAST
DAYS that fails to live us to its own teachings. This actually is a
dissappointment. May be one should just hold on to the knowledge that
our Father in heaven is one and will never give divided attention to
those who worship him in truth.
Even though come Lord Jesus.
Lungani
>>> Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com> 09/06/99 02:41PM >>>
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For details and to order, go to:
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:27:04 +0200
From: MLAMLI PAPU <papu@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Introduction
Hi everybody
I would like to introduce myself as a new member.
My name is Mlamli Papu, youngest brother to Jongimpi.
I must say I have found the discussions very interesting and am looking forward to taking part.
God is good
Mlamli
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:29:22 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Introduction
Welcome brother.
-----Original Message-----
From: MLAMLI PAPU [mailto:papu@iafrica.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 10:27 AM
To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com'
Subject: [sa-sda] Introduction
From: MLAMLI PAPU <papu@iafrica.com>
Hi everybody
I would like to introduce myself as a new member.
My name is Mlamli Papu, youngest brother to Jongimpi.
I must say I have found the discussions very interesting and am looking
forward to taking part.
God is good
Mlamli
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To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:37:29 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Fw: Researchers deplore dearth of marriage stats
Hi Nikelo
I want to underscore the observations you have made. We have a tremendous
need for Family Ministries in our churches. Many churches are in denial and
think that all is well but if we were to conduct surveys I would guess that
issues such as divorce, abuse in all it's forms and other family issues are
not lagging all that far behind the statistics of the people around us.
Church growth statistics show that growing churches are those that provide a
variety of ministries to meet the needs of the members and the community.
Hats of to all of our churches who are providing for the needs of the
families in their congregations. The need is great.
For healthier Christ centred families
Shirley
-----Original Message-----
From: Bangisi, Nikelo <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, September 06, 1999 09:18
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Fw: Researchers deplore dearth of marriage stats
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
>Hi Shirley,
>
>The report you posted on the discussion of divorce and the lack of
>statistics thereof shows very clearly to me that this appears to be a
>subject that is gradually resting in its own grave of neglect. I am
>grateful, nonetheless, that Jongimpi correctly puts it that there is need
>for the church to develop a standing ministry on this matter. In fact we
>should not wait for the administration to do the work. We should be setting
>the pace indicating the serious need on our part. In my local church I
>discovered that sometimes the lack of fellowship is caused by failure to
>have upright and happy families, especially husbands and wives. So we have
>started the family life program.
>
>I believe good family life begets good church life and consequently good
>community life.
>
>God bless you.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Shirley Allen [mailto:chmin@hbc.ac.za]
>Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 11:33 AM
>To: SA-SDA
>Subject: [sa-sda] Fw: Researchers deplore dearth of marriage stats
>
>
>From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
>
>Hi there
>Seeing the latest discussion is on divorce I thought this may be of
>interest.
>Best wishes
>Shirley
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-smartmarriages@mclean1.his.com
><owner-smartmarriages@mclean1.his.com>
>To: undisclosed-recipients:; <undisclosed-recipients:;>
>Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 08:05
>Subject: Researchers deplore dearth of marriage stats
>
>
>>from: Smart Marriages
>>
>>
>>Researchers deplore dearth of statistics about marriage
>>
>>By Cheryl Wetzstein THE WASHINGTON TIMES August 31, 1999
>>
>>Data on the vital statistics of marriage is drying up and no relief is in
>>sight, says a growing group of researchers and social scientists. For
>>instance:
>>
>>-Oklahoma policy-makers would like to lower their state's high divorce
>>rate, but they can't tell if marrying young -- as many Oklahoma couples
>>seem to do -- leads to divorce. There's no national data to guide the
>>policy-makers.
>>
>>-Researchers would like to verify which state has the longest marriages,
>>how old people are when they divorce, and how many children are affected
>>by divorce each year. But there's no data.
>>
>>-Futurists like Sandy Burchsted of Houston are in an even bigger bind.
>>Ms. Burchsted, who is preparing a book on marriage 100 years from now,
>>believes that "serial monogamy" is slowly displacing traditional
>>marriage, but proving even a megatrend like this will be difficult
>>without data.
>>
>> Not only is current marriage data meager, but "there's very little
>>written or even discussed about marriage in the future," she says.
>>
>>These researchers say the dearth of data on marriage and divorce is about
>>to get worse. Next year, for the first time in more than 100 years, the
>>U.S. Census will not ask every household about marital status.
>>
>>Instead, only 17 percent of households will be asked this vital question.
>>
>>This omission dismays researchers like Bonnie Braun, a family life
>>specialist at the University of Maryland at College Park.
>>
>>"The census data has been the one consistent piece of data we could all
>>use over time. Especially with trends, we had the same thing to compare
>>to," says Mrs. Braun.
>>
>>"When I think about them leaving [data collection] up to states,
>>individuals or universities, you are going to have so much variation that
>>you're not going to be able to make the same kind of comparisons," she
>>adds. "It really is of concern to us."
>>
>>Some observers in Congress are also concerned.
>>
>>"There's a growing understanding that nothing is more critical than
>>marital status" when it comes to social pathologies, says Michael
>>Schwartz, administrative director for Rep. Tom Coburn, Oklahoma
>>Republican. "Now is not the time to eliminate that data."
>>
>>But Congress has played a pivotal role in creating the data dearth after
>>signing off on the changes in the 2000 Census. Sen. Sam Brownback, Kansas
>>Republican, is trying to remedy the situation by asking the Senate to
>>create a committee to examine the American culture and its effects on
>>family and society. A top priority of the proposed committee would be to
>>"explore holes in data collection" on family structure and function,
>>according to his office.
>>
>> Beyond this, however, there aren't any immediate efforts to change
>>federal data-gathering techniques. "It's still in the discussion stage,"
>>said one House aide.
>>
>>Observers outside Capitol Hill say Congress has ample authority to lead
>>on this issue. It can commission studies, pass laws requiring collection
>>of marital status and related data and set uniform data collection
>>standards for states.
>>
>> It could also tell the National Center for Health Statistics to resume
>>collecting detailed marriage and divorce statistics, which it stopped
>>doing in 1996. Congress should give the NCHS the funds to do so, the
>>observers hasten to add, noting that the center abandoned its marriage
>>and divorce efforts because of budget constraints.
>>
>>Marriage researchers need to lobby for their needs, says Theodora Ooms, a
>>marriage expert who has been struggling to find data to help state
>>policy-makers answer their marriage and divorce questions.
>>
>>Traditionally, Mrs. Ooms says, although many public and private groups
>>use marriage data, "there are no strong constituents who have a clear
>>stake in these issues.
>>
>>"Thus, there has been virtually no inside or outside pressure to improve"
>>the collection of marriage and divorce data, she says.
>>
>>In addition, state and national public health departments have not viewed
>>marriage as a public health concern and made it a low priority in data
>>collection, she says.
>>
>>"It is essential that the federal government reverse current policy and
>>reinvest in helping states collect uniform, consistent and useful data on
>>marriage and divorce," says Mrs. Ooms, who is urging Congress to
>>commission a study of marriage and divorce statistics, how they relate to
>>census data, and how they can be improved.
>>
>>Patrick Fagan, an analyst at the Heritage Foundation, suspects a "radical
>>liberal agenda" is playing a role in the downgrading of marriage and
>>divorce data collection.
>>
>>"Marriage is critical to the well-being of children, but elitists in
>>academia and government hate to hear that," he says. They have therefore,
>>he says, focused on other, less important factors affecting children,
>>such as environment or family income.
>>
>>A prime example of this misunderstanding is a new report on children's
>>well-being issued by 18 federal agencies, says Mr. Fagan.
>>
>>The report barely mentions family structure even though "divorce is the
>>leading single thing that pushes kids into poverty," he says.
>>
>>Authors of the interagency study, "America's Children: Key National
>>Indicators of Well-being," agree that "current data collection systems do
>>not provide enough background information on children's lives, their
>>families and their caregivers."
>>
>> More data on family structure is needed, as well as information on how
>>and where children spend their time, the report's authors say.
>>
>>Researchers may be unhappy that the 2000 census will no longer ask every
>>adult American about their marital status, but census experts note that
>>this change couldn't have happened without Congress' approval.
>>
>> The Census Bureau showed Congress its lists of 2000 Census questions in
>>April 1998, and Congress approved them, says TerriAnn Lowenthal, a
>>consultant on the census.
>>
>>The marital-status question, which asks adults if they are "now married,
>>widowed, separated, divorced or never married," was dropped from the 2000
>>Census short form, which will go an estimated 120 million households. The
>>official reason is there was no law mandating it. Questions on race and
>>ethnicity were retained.
>>
>>This is the first time since 1880 the marriage question won't be asked of
>>every household, said one congressional aide.
>>
>>The question, however, is maintained on the long form, which goes to 17
>>percent of households, or around 20 million households.
>>
>>Earlier this year, several members of Congress considered introducing
>>legislation to return the martial-status question to the short form,
>>aides said.
>>
>>But making changes now in the 2000 census is "almost inconceivable,
>>operationally," says Ms. Lowenthal. Some 200 million census forms,
>>including those in foreign languages, are now being addressed. Reprinting
>>the forms would likely cost more than $100 million and even delay the
>>census, which is required by law to occur April 1, experts say.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Around the Coalition" is a FREE online newsletter which shares
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>>
>>The 3rd Annual Smart Marriages/Happy Families conference was held
>>July 1-4, 1999 in Washington, DC.
>>
>>To order tapes of all presentations at the 1999 conference, as well as
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>>
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>>
>>Coalition for Marriage, Family and Couples Education, LLC (CMFCE)
>>Diane Sollee, Director
>>5310 Belt Rd. NW, Washington, DC 20015-1961
>>www.smartmarriages.com
>>202-362-3332 (FAX 202-362-0973) Email: cmfce@smartmarriages.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:33:29 +0200
From: "Errol" <errol@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Hi
Its Errol Nembhard,
I've been in England away for a while preaching but I'm back its great to
know that we are going to have some great discussions online!
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:56:25 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: Hi
Tell us Errol, what do you think of the unification of the TOC and TC.
Should they be united or not?
-----Original Message-----
From: Errol [mailto:errol@tpi.co.za]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 7:33 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: [sa-sda] Hi
From: "Errol" <errol@tpi.co.za>
Its Errol Nembhard,
I've been in England away for a while preaching but I'm back its great to
know that we are going to have some great discussions online!
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