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There are 19 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: RE: 1888 Message
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
2. Re: RE: 1888 Message
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
3. Re: RE: 1888 Message
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
4. Merger
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
5. RE: New member
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
6. Re: Adventist World News Update
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
7. Re: Baptism.
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
8. Re: divorce?
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
9. Admin
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
10. Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
11. Re: Admin
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
12. Re: Baptism.
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
13. Re: Adventist World News Update
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
14. Re: divorce?
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
15. Re: New member
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
16. Re: Merger
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
17. Re: RE: 1888 Message
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
18. Re: RE: 1888 Message
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
19. Re: RE: 1888 Message
From: "L A Young" <layoung@xxxxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 03:00:53 PDT
From: "vusi kaunda" <vusi12@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: 1888 Message
Jongimpi,
That is an interesting thought,would you care to expand just a little bit.
Casual dress and other form of dress seems to be as controversial today as
the other topics on the table.
Cheers
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
>Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 10:01:38 +0200
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
>Nick
>about dress, I think you can practise casual dress, whatever that means,
>but you should never practise casual acts.
>
>The heart of the problem is the problem of the heart
>
>Jongimpi
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bangisi, Nikelo <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 9:14 AM
>Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
>
>
> >From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> >
> >May I add to the question and ask whether the TC and TOC are not aware of
> >this principle and if so, could they have strayed from it? Are we playing
> >God in these two conferences?
> >
> >Jerry, please tell us what the problem is. At least you've been involved.
> >
> >Here is my other problem. We were told here at work that today is casual
> >day. Unfortunately I forgot about this. So I dressed formal as usual. All
>I
> >did this morning was to simply leave my tie in the car. Could it be that
>I
> >am so brainwashed by the wearing of tie and some type of formal clothing
>as
> >we normally appear in church. Would it be wrong for me to practice casual
> >dress sometimes in church?
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Daniel Dlongolo [mailto:daniel@4gl.co.za]
> >Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 10:37 AM
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
> >
> >
> >From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
> >
> >Jeremiah,
> >
> >May you please explain what you mean by "the principle of the priesthood
> >of believers".
> >
> >He will surely come.
> >
> >Daniel
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
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Vusi Kaunda
Information Resource Center
US Information Service
Ph 27 11 982 5580
Fx 27 11 982 5844
vusi12@hotmail.com
PO Box 1762
Houghton
2041
http://www.usia.gov/posts/pretoria
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 05:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: 1888 Message
Daniel,
You really got me here. It is easy to throw words around and hope
that everybody will be so impressed that they won't even ask what
they mean.
Let me try. We all know that as individuals we are all directly
responsible to God, however, the concept of the priesthood believers
brings another dimension, that is the mutual responsibility and
accountability between believers.
God in the Old Testament introduced this concept. It started with His
covenant with Abraham and again renewed with the children of Israel.
In Ex 19:6 we see God renewing this convent and introducing this
concept of the priestly covenant: "And you shall be to Me a kingdom
of priests and a holy nation.' These [are] the words which you shall
speak to the children of Israel."
When Achan sinned, all Israel felt the divine displeasure. The defeat
at the little town of Ai followed the great victory at Jericho. In
holding the entire nation responsible, God provided a dramatic lesson
for us. (P&P pp. 494-497), Whether laity, pastors, or administrators,
all are to be subject one to another within the body, being both
accountable to and responsible for each other.
You will remember how the ten tribes responded to the Rueben and Gad
when they built an altar by the Jordan. They had learnt their lesson.
This concept move on to the New Testament, Peter says "But you [are]
a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own
special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called
you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to [your] elders. Yes,
all of [you] be submissive to one another, and be clothed with
humility, for "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He
may exalt you in due time" (1 Peter 2:9; 5:5,6)
There is somewhere where E.G White says that God will not give his
light to only one man. I just don't have to look this up. But what
this means is that when God wants to give us new light even though it
might start with one man, when it is brought to the fellow believers
they will also be able to see it. This is at the core of the
principle of the priesthood of believers.
I could continue, but let's give a chance to others.
He will come!
Jeremiah
--- Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za> wrote:
> From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
>
> Jeremiah,
>
> May you please explain what you mean by "the principle of the
> priesthood
> of believers".
>
> He will surely come.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:18:33 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: 1888 Message
Just to add,
God not only looks at us as individuals but also as a priesthood of believers, a congregation of saints (His church or His bride).
Therefore the church needs to speak with one voice and walk in the same manner.
Afterall we are our brother's keeper.
At the door! Yes, At the door!
Jeremiah
>>> Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com> 09/03 8:21 AM >>>
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Daniel,
You really got me here. It is easy to throw words around and hope
that everybody will be so impressed that they won't even ask what
they mean.
Let me try. We all know that as individuals we are all directly
responsible to God, however, the concept of the priesthood believers
brings another dimension, that is the mutual responsibility and
accountability between believers.
God in the Old Testament introduced this concept. It started with His
covenant with Abraham and again renewed with the children of Israel.
In Ex 19:6 we see God renewing this convent and introducing this
concept of the priestly covenant: "And you shall be to Me a kingdom
of priests and a holy nation.' These [are] the words which you shall
speak to the children of Israel."
When Achan sinned, all Israel felt the divine displeasure. The defeat
at the little town of Ai followed the great victory at Jericho. In
holding the entire nation responsible, God provided a dramatic lesson
for us. (P&P pp. 494-497), Whether laity, pastors, or administrators,
all are to be subject one to another within the body, being both
accountable to and responsible for each other.
You will remember how the ten tribes responded to the Rueben and Gad
when they built an altar by the Jordan. They had learnt their lesson.
This concept move on to the New Testament, Peter says "But you [are]
a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own
special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called
you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to [your] elders. Yes,
all of [you] be submissive to one another, and be clothed with
humility, for "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He
may exalt you in due time" (1 Peter 2:9; 5:5,6)
There is somewhere where E.G White says that God will not give his
light to only one man. I just don't have to look this up. But what
this means is that when God wants to give us new light even though it
might start with one man, when it is brought to the fellow believers
they will also be able to see it. This is at the core of the
principle of the priesthood of believers.
I could continue, but let's give a chance to others.
He will come!
Jeremiah
--- Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za> wrote:
> From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
>
> Jeremiah,
>
> May you please explain what you mean by "the principle of the
> priesthood
> of believers".
>
> He will surely come.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
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The King is even at the door!
====
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To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 10:02:56 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Merger
Nick,
I think Pastor Letseli will be the best person to answer this question, as he is still involved in the process. It has been more than a year and half since I was last involved.
I also think that I am the right person to talk about the merger, for I am confused, frustrated and disillusioned with the whole process.
As a child I was taught that the Adventist church is the only church has the complete truth or that tries to follow all what God has said. As I grow older I made it my business to search the scriptures and I still continue to search. Every time a have a Bible study with someone I start by telling them that if we find, from the scriptures, that I was wrong I will change immediately, even if it means leaving the SDA church. However the more I study the more I get convinced that this is the true church.
Now, here lies my problem. When I look at the people in the church and their behavior I think that I am in the wrong church. This is a contradiction. How can a church whose foundation can be traced to Bible prophecy look the way the SDA church looks, at least in our part of the world?
In my distress the Lord opened my eyes and I realized that the majority of those who call themselves Adventist do not know Him.
Do we really need to merger?
I believe in the concept of the structural major, I believe in it so much that I know it is a divine plan. There is no doubt in my mind about that. But the question still remains do we really have to merger?
I believe that in health reform, I believe in it so much that I know it is a divine plan. Do we have to force all to be health reformers?
We need to address a big problem, the lack of repentance, then health reform, etc. will automatically follow. Matt 6:33
Our problem is that the summer has past and the harvest is gone and we are not saved. Christ is coming and we are more concern on who has more money instead of following what God says.
This reminds me of 22 Octomber1844, they were smoking their pipe and eating pork while they were waiting for the Lord's return.
He will surely come soon!
Jeremiah
>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 09/03 3:13 AM >>>
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
May I add to the question and ask whether the TC and TOC are not aware of
this principle and if so, could they have strayed from it? Are we playing
God in these two conferences?
Jerry, please tell us what the problem is. At least you've been involved.
Here is my other problem. We were told here at work that today is casual
day. Unfortunately I forgot about this. So I dressed formal as usual. All I
did this morning was to simply leave my tie in the car. Could it be that I
am so brainwashed by the wearing of tie and some type of formal clothing as
we normally appear in church. Would it be wrong for me to practice casual
dress sometimes in church?
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Dlongolo [mailto:daniel@4gl.co.za]
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 10:37 AM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
Jeremiah,
May you please explain what you mean by "the principle of the priesthood
of believers".
He will surely come.
Daniel
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====
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The King is even at the door!
====
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To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 07:12:38 PDT
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: New member
from mbedzi to Bangesi.
We wil try to preach to them.
mbedzi
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: RE: [sa-sda] New member
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:45:14 +0200
>
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
>Jerry,
>
>I met someone at lunch time today who particularly told me that she is an
>atheist. I thought of the discussion on evangelism that has already been
>discussed. I have been preaching the gospel of a living God to this
>particular lady to a point of my showing her books to read. She would not
>accept anything because she is atheist. The other day she gave me a
>religious note that she got from a church she had visited.
>
>My plea to the whole discussion team is find a way of preaching differently
>to a so-called atheist.
>
>God bless you all.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mashudu Ravhengani [mailto:ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
>Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 3:21 PM
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] New member
>
>
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Welcome Nick,
>
>You are part of the family,
>
>He is at the door!
>
>Jeremiah
>
> >>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/20 6:31 AM >>>
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I am a new contributor to your discussions. May I take this opportunity to
>thank everyone who contributes to the discussions that keep coming up. It
>is
>very stimulating to read all the answers and contributions made by all of
>you. I also hope to have a meaningful contribution in the future.
>
>God bless you all
>
>Nick
>
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>====
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>
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>====
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 07:28:47 PDT
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Adventist World News Update
thank, for the story from South South America about Ellen White.
Paul.
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: [sa-sda] Adventist World News Update
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:27:03 -0400
>
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>from the www
>
>City square named after Ellen White
>The city council of the Southern Brazilian city of Curitiba A city council
>in Brazil
>has given unanimous approval to name one of its squares after Adventist
>pioneer
>Ellen White. Curitiba, the capital of Paraná province, is considered a
>model city
>because of its care for ecological balance, the percentage of green areas
>in the
>city, the efficiency of public transportation, as well as a large number of
>squares
>and parks, cleanliness, urban development and security. The Ellen G. White
>Square is in a popular location on a daily exercise route for cycling and
>running.
>The square will in inaugurated in November. Zukowski adds that such a
>decision
>was greeted with enthusiasm by the Church in Curitiba. The initiative to
>approach the city council came from Tarso Furlan, a church member in
>Curitiba
>who was baptized as a Seventh-day Adventist a few months ago. He was
>impressed by the books written by Ellen White, and felt that the population
>at
>large should also get to know her important contribution as an Adventist
>Christian visionary, writer and church leader. The square will feature a
>sculpture
>of Ellen G. White, gardening and plaques telling about her.
>
>Adventists tortured in jail
>Adventists found not guity for desecrating a Catholic church in Cape Verde
>were
>tortured while they were held in jail for 12 months awaiting trial "They
>have
>been tortured by all kinds of methods, including electric shocks, to try to
>force
>them to confess to a crime that they had not committed," says Felix
>Monteiro,
>president of the Adventist Church in the Cape Verde islands. "But God gave
>them strength and a great deal of courage to stay on the side of truth." As
>reported earlier, the three Adventists, José Maria Monteiro Rodrigues,
>Jorge
>Adalberto Ramos Tavares, and Benvindo da Cruz Ramos, were declared
>innocent of all charges brought against them. Judge Dr. Helena Barreto
>stated
>that "the only crime which the three Adventists had committed, if that
>constitutes
>a crime, was to be Seventh-day Adventists."
>
>Pastors receive AIDS training
>More than 600 Adventist pastors and their wives have received training in
>AIDS
>awareness and counseling regarding HIV infection. Trainers included doctors
>and
>health experts from the U.S. and Australia, as well locals. "This event
>marks a
>new day in the fight against HIV/AIDS in Papua New Guinea," says Percy
>Harrold, health director for the Adventist Church's South Pacific Division.
>"No
>longer can the church bury its head in the sand. No longer can pastors say
>'I can
>only give the Biblical stand.' Now pastors are equipped to give practical
>advice as
>well in preventing HIV infection."
>
>PUC still top in California
>Pacific Union College this week was ranked as the top college in California
>by
>"US News and World Report." This is the sixth straight year of top ranking
>for
>PUC. PUC was ranked in the top five for "Best Values" among liberal arts
>colleges in the Western U.S. -- a ranking based on a ratio of quality to
>price. It
>was also ranked among the top ten most "ethnically diverse" campuses in the
>Western U. S. PUC scored well in all ranking categories, especially in
>academic
>quality, faculty-to-student ratio, and student diversity. PUC ranked in the
>top ten
>among all American colleges and universities for acceptance into medical
>school.
>
>
>
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>The King is even at the door!
>====
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 10:32:53 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Baptism.
Jongimpi,
Thanks for the enlightment, I was in the dark on this subject.
He will come!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 09/03 3:26 AM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Sam
The issue you have raised about baptism is a difficult one, maybe that is
the reason why I have been trying to avoid it. I had hoped that some would
be brave enough to attempt an answer.
Let me try. Your concern is why did John encourage people to confess their
sins and be baptised when the ceremonial laws were still in place. These
laws among other things stipulated that if anyone sins, he had to bring an
animal which would be sacrificed for the forgiveness of his sins. But here
John is talking about baptism as a rite connected with confession of sin,
did this therefore substitute the sacrificial rites?
Scholars are not exactly certain as to the background of John's baptism.
Two theories have been suggested, the first being that of the Jewish
Proselyte baptism. Here it is believed that the rite of baptism was
performed only once upon the Gentile convert, this served to cleanse the
convert from moral and cultic impurity. But it should be noted that John's
baptism was received by the Jews and as such was a significant
transformation from the Jewish proselyte practise.
The second theory is that of the Qumran washings. This community operated
outside the Temple and viewed the priests as evil and impure. Thus its
only available rituals were baths and lustrations. True repentance for
this community would be followed by cleansing in water. The difference
between this rite and John's was that for the Qumran this was self
administered and done daily, but for John it was a once for all initiatory
rite.
It would appear therefore that the concept of baptism was not a new one
altogether, even though John transformed it significantly.
It should also be noted that evidence is lacking to suggest that baptism
substituted the ceremonial laws. The animal sacrifices were performed well
up until 70 A.D. Remember it was the death of Christ that put an end to
this laws and not baptism. The Jews who were baptised by John would go on
and perform their sacrificial rites according to the law.
Another thing worth considering is that, if John had sought in any way to
do away with these laws, and in their place put baptism, he would have
suffered an immature death in the hands of the Jews. The absence of any
confrontation with the Jews could be taken to imply that John's baptism was
not viewed as substituting the ceremonial laws.
I am sure my response is as clear as mud.
Worthy is the Lamb
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 8:05 AM
Subject: [sa-sda] Baptism.
>From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za>
>
>Dear Brethren
>
>This morning I was looking in the book of Mark 1 and my attention was
>drawn to verse 5"people from Jerusalem and from all over judea traveled
>out into the wilderness to see and hear John.And when they confessed
>their sins,he baptized them in the Jordan river" and in my mind came
>this questions.I want to know how did they confess their sins,for I
>still believe that the ceremonial law was still applicable,and John the
>Baptist baptized them after the confession not of their faults but of
>their sins?i want to know was there baptism before John the Baptist and
>before Christ?
>
>
>soon and very soon we are going to see the King of kings.
>
>Sam
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mashudu Ravhengani [SMTP:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:03 AM
>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>>
>> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>
>>
>> Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has written a book called: The Marriage
>> Covenant: A Biblical Study on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage. I
>> think it is the best book on this subject. I highly recommend it; in
>> fact I was so impressed with the book I went and bought a 2nd copy. It
>> can be found at the ABC.
>> You can also get some chapters of this book on the WEB; here is a link
>> to chapter that deals with the issue of divorce:
>> http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/marriage/5.html (Those without
>> web access send me a mail at masabatha@yahoo.com)
>>
>> The view that Bacchiocchi seem to be expressing is that God hates
>> divorce under any circumstances, including adultery (see his arguments
>> in the above link). To address the issues raised by Jongimpi he
>> suggests a conditional separation (a cooling off period). In my
>> experience many couples who chose this option eventually found
>> solution to their problems.
>>
>> My problem is not necessarily whether people should divorce or not,
>> but how can we prevent a situation where people even think of
>> divorcing?
>> What are the things that cause one to think that divorce is the best
>> solution? As Jongimpi has correctly pointed out, there are some
>> couples who are divorced while they still living together.
>> How do we prevent divorce in marriage and divorce out of marriage?
>>
>> Sorrow and mourning shall flee away!
>>
>> Jeremiah
>>
>> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/30 1:32 PM >>>
>> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>>
>> Ramo
>> I think that is a difficult question. I could easily say, God does
>> not
>> allow for divorce, except when one partner has proved to be
>> unfaithful. I
>> believe this is true and Biblical, but where do we go from there?
>>
>> Sometimes when we say God does not approve of divorce we sound as if
>> we are
>> saying he approves of one being abused and dehumanised. Some have
>> stayed
>> in such relationships preferring to die than to divorce, for God hates
>> divorce, what does HE love?
>>
>> I think the solution here is that, according to our church manual,
>> which I
>> think is in harmony with the Bible in this instance. That if one
>> divorces
>> for reasons that are unbiblical, God does not recognise that as
>> divorce. In
>> the eyes of God the person is still married, not that he/she must stay
>> in
>> the relationship, but is still regarded as married by God. He
>> therefore
>> cannot enter into any other marital relationship, as long as his/her
>> partner
>> is still alive.
>>
>> God hates that which leads to divorce. And to my mind absence of
>> divorce
>> does not mean presence of happiness in a relationship.
>>
>> Two hearts that love God cannot be far apart!
>>
>> Jongimpi
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>> To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 3:58 PM
>> Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>>
>>
>> From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>>
>> Jongimpi,
>>
>> Apart from those that are explicitly mentioned in the bible, does God
>> allow
>> for divorce on other grounds (such as the ones you alluded to)?
>>
>> A lot of us have personal experience of living in families that fell
>> apart
>> due to divorce and can bear witness to the fact that had the marriage
>> not
>> ended, those involved would be worse off in many ways. While not
>> advocating
>> divorce, I think that grounds do exist for it in some cases.
>>
>> Having said all the above, I fully agree with you that if we follow
>> God's
>> lead prior to committing to anyone, we are setting ourselves up to
>> enjoy
>> marriage as God meant for us to enjoy it.
>>
>> Time doth softly, swiftly glide when there's love at home.
>>
>> Ramodise
>>
>>
>>
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 07:47:48 PDT
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: divorce?
Divorce is not an option in the bible. Malachi 2:16 God says he hates
divorce and man whos hearts are dry.
Mbedzi.
>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 04:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
>
>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
>Dear friends,
>
>It has been very quite out there.
>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
>
>He will come!
>
>Jeremiah
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 12:37:40 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Admin
Greetings!
Adventist University on the Web
Last week I had an opportunity of speaking to an old friend, Ramodise, and he told how he has been blest by the discussions on this list. And I would like to believe that this has been the experience of many of you. As for me, I am just excited to be able to listening to the ideas and views of some of the best minds in Adventism. What a privilege! Even some of us who are untrained and unseasoned in how to handle the scriptures have an opportunity to exchange our humble opinions with those who are highly trained in scriptures without the fear of been disrespectful.
I can clearly see the hand of God leading and guiding us.
This is indeed an Adventist University on the Web!
To God be the glory!
What's your name?
How are we to address each other? I know that among us there are those whom we usually refer to as Pastor, Dr, etc. How should we refer to each other in the discussions? So far, I have been using a person's first name. What do you think? Should we use Brother or Sistah? Or should we just ask people to sign whatever they would like to be called?
Masabatha Online (www.masabatha.org)
I have recently downloaded all the discussions from this list to our Web Site. If you are a new member you can go there and read all the previous discussions. I will try to update it as frequently as I can.
If your email account is filling up, you can now delete your mails knowing that you will still be able to access the discussions online.
I am still requesting your sermons, testimonies, humor stories etc.
A thought from SOP
With His eye upon the church, the Lord has again and again allowed matters to come to a crisis, that in their extremity His people should look alone for His help. Their prayers, their faith, together with their steadfast purpose to be true, have called for the interference of God, and then He has fulfilled His promise, "Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am" (Isa. 58:9). His mighty arm has been stretched out for the deliverance of His people. God reserves His gracious interposition in their behalf till the time of their extremity; thus He makes their deliverance more marked, and their victories more glorious. When all human wisdom fails, the Lord's interference will be more clearly recognized, and He will receive the glory that is His due. Even the enemies of our faith, persecutors, will perceive that God is working for His people in turning their captivity.
Selected Messages Book 2, page 372
The King is even at the door!
MJ Ravhengani
SA-SDA/Masabatha Online
Email : masabatha@yahoo.com
Web Site: www.masabatha.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:31:59 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Modise <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 4:44 PM
Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
> From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
>
> Bangisi,
>
> I think the focus should not be on circumstances that may make divorce
> easier, but rather to entrench the roots of love for it to withstand any
> circumstance. Love should not be reactive and defensive, it should be
> proactive and protective. It brings me to the point that it is not a
> foregone conclusion that if you become a christian today you will still
> be one tomorrow. Therefore, in our matrimonial relationship with Christ
> we always need to "watch and pray" and be greatful that we still have a
> good and growing relationship with Him from one day to the other.
> It therefore follows, that there is no guarantee (because love respects
> the exercise of free choice) that, for example, your spouse will want or
> still be married to you tomorrow. We need to pray and thank God always
> for the "miracle" that we are still holding on in the faith and that our
> spouses still see it benefial to stay married to us (once saved always
> saved?). If we don't do this we become less appreciative and begin to
> take things for granted, and this may inhibit our connection to the
> Vine!!!!!!
>
> He is coming
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA> 09/02/99 03:16PM >>>
> From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA>
>
> Bangisi
>
> There was a couple that was having some serious marital problems. Both
> were Christians and believed in this phrase 'Till death do us part'. A
> marriage counsellor recommended that they go on holiday together to
> try
> and build up the marriage.
>
> So they took a trip to the Kruger National Park. As theyr were
> enjoying
> the stay, a stray lion came into their chalet. It pounced on the
> woman,
> and she began screaming asking her husband to save her. The husband
> went
> for his gun and before he could fire the same phrase came to his mind
> 'Till death do us part' and he lowered his gun and never took the
> shot.
>
> The lady died, having devoured by the lion.
>
> Mxolisi
> > ----------
> > From: Bangisi, Nikelo[SMTP:NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com]
> > Reply To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:34 AM
> > To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> > Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
> >
> > From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> >
> > Jongimpi,
> >
> > How do you go around the vow that says "Till death do us part"? This
> > does
> > not say "Till divorce do us part"? Could it be that this vow might
> > also
> > imply the death of love on one of the parties? I am worried by the
> > fact that
> > if one could wake up one morning not loving anymore, if such a thing
> > is
> > there, then divorce will even be made easier and authorised under
> any
> > circumstances. I am becoming confused.
> >
> > We cannot just divorce.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:19 AM
> > To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> > Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
> >
> >
> > From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> >
> > Mashudu
> > I agree with you man of God, I am on your side. My fear is that
> we
> > can
> > over burden love. I do not subscribe to the notion that love can
> > change
> > everything. God loves us, he sent his only son to die for us, but
> > not all
> > of us will be saved, love has not failed we have failed to respond.
> >
> > Currently, I have a serious case of a woman who, in her own way, has
> > done
> > everything to show love to her husband, and the last thing she was
> > told
> > after a series of abuse, was that Let us divorce. Her question,
> is,
> > where
> > have I failed? I loved my husband, why did that not work? She
> > thinks that
> > maybe she did not love him strongly.
> >
> > With this kind of experience, I think it is only proper for us to
> look
> > at
> > the other side of love, and that is, Love is strong. God will have
> > to
> > accept one day that there are people who do not want His love, love
> > can be
> > rejected, but cannot be destroyed.
> >
> > Let us love them not because we want them to change, but because we
> > have
> > been changed by the love of God. Love can never fail, but those we
> > love
> > can fail us.
> >
> > Love at home
> >
> > Jongimpi
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> > To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 6:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
> >
> >
> > >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> > >
> > >
> > >I don't know about obsession, but the marriage vow still says
> '"TILL
> > DEATH
> > DO US APART"
> > >As much as God CAN change the tasteless water into a sweet wine, He
> > CAN
> > sweeten a tasteless marriage. As much as He CAN create something out
> > of
> > nothing, He CAN create love where there is no love.
> > >As long as there is life there is hope.
> > >
> > >Hold on! Wait upon the Lord, for He is able!
> > >
> > >Never give up!
> > >
> > >Jeremiah
> > >
> > >>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/31 11:07 AM >>>
> > >From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> > >
> > >Mashudu and Nick
> > >Real love can also accept rejection, but obsession cannot.
> > >
> > >Love at home
> > >Jongimpi
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> > >To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> > >Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:04 PM
> > >Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
> > >
> > >
> > >>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> > >>
> > >>Nick wrote:
> > >>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How
> > should a
> > >>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a
> > conclusive
> > >>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you
> > get is
> > "I
> > >>>don't know, I still have to find out".
> > >>
> > >>To make the question even broader, what do you do when your
> > husband/wife
> > >does not love you any more?
> > >>How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her
> > love?
> > >>Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other
> person
> > needs
> > >to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is
> not
> > about
> > >doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only
> your
> > part,
> > >but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might
> > not see
> > >your 50% as you see it.
> > >>
> > >>If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you
> > too'. I
> > >think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For
> love
> > begets
> > >love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real
> love
> > can
> > >break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is
> > >irresistible. Real love comes from God.
> > >>
> > >>That's my try!
> > >>
> > >>With God, all things are possible!
> > >>
> > >>Jeremiah
> > >>
> > >>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM
> > >>>
> > >>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> > >>
> > >>My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce
> > contributes
> > >to
> > >>the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral
> > standards
> > >>have declined in the society, in general, law makers have
> > conveniently
> > >>opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the
> > land.
> > >For
> > >>example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE
> > still
> > >>exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted.
> The
> > >enquiry
> > >>that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of
> > the
> > >>continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may
> > themselves
> > >be
> > >>divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties
> > themselves.
> > >>
> > >>There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown
> > of
> > >>marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that
> > require a
> > >>divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship
> > has
> > >>irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12
> > months
> > >>separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove
> this
> > point.
> > >>Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
> > >>
> > >>From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's
> office
> > I
> > >found
> > >>surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by
> > the
> > male
> > >>folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me
> > think
> > >>also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many
> > "wives"
> > >>whereas one is married to his own wife.
> > >>
> > >>from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been
> largely
> > >affected
> > >>by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting
> in
> > the
> > >>church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault
> > his own
> > >>wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious
> > to her
> > >>without having been converted to the world.
> > >>
> > >>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How
> > should a
> > >>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a
> > conclusive
> > >>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you
> get
> > is "I
> > >>don't know, I still have to find out".
> > >>
> > >>God bless you all.
> > >>
> > >>Nick
> > >>
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
> > >>Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
> > >>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> > >>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
> > >>
> > >>Dear friends,
> > >>
> > >>It has been very quite out there.
> > >>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
> > >>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
> > >>
> > >>He will come!
> > >>
> > >>Jeremiah
> > >>__________________________________________________
> > >>Do You Yahoo!?
> > >>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> > ----------------------------
> > >>
> > >>ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
> > >>
> >
> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > >>The King is even at the door!
> > >>====
> > >>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
> > sa-sda@onelist.com
> > >>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> > >>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:32:28 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: Admin
----- Original Message -----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 6:37 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] Admin
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>
> Greetings!
>
> Adventist University on the Web
> Last week I had an opportunity of speaking to an old friend, Ramodise, and
he told how he has been blest by the discussions on this list. And I would
like to believe that this has been the experience of many of you. As for me,
I am just excited to be able to listening to the ideas and views of some of
the best minds in Adventism. What a privilege! Even some of us who are
untrained and unseasoned in how to handle the scriptures have an opportunity
to exchange our humble opinions with those who are highly trained in
scriptures without the fear of been disrespectful.
> I can clearly see the hand of God leading and guiding us.
> This is indeed an Adventist University on the Web!
> To God be the glory!
>
> What's your name?
> How are we to address each other? I know that among us there are those
whom we usually refer to as Pastor, Dr, etc. How should we refer to each
other in the discussions? So far, I have been using a person's first name.
What do you think? Should we use Brother or Sistah? Or should we just ask
people to sign whatever they would like to be called?
>
> Masabatha Online (www.masabatha.org)
> I have recently downloaded all the discussions from this list to our Web
Site. If you are a new member you can go there and read all the previous
discussions. I will try to update it as frequently as I can.
> If your email account is filling up, you can now delete your mails knowing
that you will still be able to access the discussions online.
> I am still requesting your sermons, testimonies, humor stories etc.
>
> A thought from SOP
> With His eye upon the church, the Lord has again and again allowed matters
to come to a crisis, that in their extremity His people should look alone
for His help. Their prayers, their faith, together with their steadfast
purpose to be true, have called for the interference of God, and then He has
fulfilled His promise, "Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer;
thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am" (Isa. 58:9). His mighty arm has
been stretched out for the deliverance of His people. God reserves His
gracious interposition in their behalf till the time of their extremity;
thus He makes their deliverance more marked, and their victories more
glorious. When all human wisdom fails, the Lord's interference will be more
clearly recognized, and He will receive the glory that is His due. Even the
enemies of our faith, persecutors, will perceive that God is working for His
people in turning their captivity.
> Selected Messages Book 2, page 372
>
> The King is even at the door!
>
> MJ Ravhengani
> SA-SDA/Masabatha Online
> Email : masabatha@yahoo.com
> Web Site: www.masabatha.org
>
>
>
>
>
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:32:47 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: Baptism.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Baptism.
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
> Jongimpi,
>
> Thanks for the enlightment, I was in the dark on this subject.
>
> He will come!
>
> Jeremiah
>
> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 09/03 3:26 AM >>>
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> Sam
> The issue you have raised about baptism is a difficult one, maybe that is
> the reason why I have been trying to avoid it. I had hoped that some
would
> be brave enough to attempt an answer.
>
> Let me try. Your concern is why did John encourage people to confess
their
> sins and be baptised when the ceremonial laws were still in place. These
> laws among other things stipulated that if anyone sins, he had to bring an
> animal which would be sacrificed for the forgiveness of his sins. But
here
> John is talking about baptism as a rite connected with confession of sin,
> did this therefore substitute the sacrificial rites?
>
> Scholars are not exactly certain as to the background of John's baptism.
> Two theories have been suggested, the first being that of the Jewish
> Proselyte baptism. Here it is believed that the rite of baptism was
> performed only once upon the Gentile convert, this served to cleanse the
> convert from moral and cultic impurity. But it should be noted that
John's
> baptism was received by the Jews and as such was a significant
> transformation from the Jewish proselyte practise.
>
> The second theory is that of the Qumran washings. This community
operated
> outside the Temple and viewed the priests as evil and impure. Thus its
> only available rituals were baths and lustrations. True repentance for
> this community would be followed by cleansing in water. The difference
> between this rite and John's was that for the Qumran this was self
> administered and done daily, but for John it was a once for all initiatory
> rite.
>
> It would appear therefore that the concept of baptism was not a new one
> altogether, even though John transformed it significantly.
> It should also be noted that evidence is lacking to suggest that baptism
> substituted the ceremonial laws. The animal sacrifices were performed
well
> up until 70 A.D. Remember it was the death of Christ that put an end to
> this laws and not baptism. The Jews who were baptised by John would go on
> and perform their sacrificial rites according to the law.
>
> Another thing worth considering is that, if John had sought in any way to
> do away with these laws, and in their place put baptism, he would have
> suffered an immature death in the hands of the Jews. The absence of any
> confrontation with the Jews could be taken to imply that John's baptism
was
> not viewed as substituting the ceremonial laws.
>
> I am sure my response is as clear as mud.
>
> Worthy is the Lamb
>
> Jongimpi
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 8:05 AM
> Subject: [sa-sda] Baptism.
>
>
> >From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za>
> >
> >Dear Brethren
> >
> >This morning I was looking in the book of Mark 1 and my attention was
> >drawn to verse 5"people from Jerusalem and from all over judea traveled
> >out into the wilderness to see and hear John.And when they confessed
> >their sins,he baptized them in the Jordan river" and in my mind came
> >this questions.I want to know how did they confess their sins,for I
> >still believe that the ceremonial law was still applicable,and John the
> >Baptist baptized them after the confession not of their faults but of
> >their sins?i want to know was there baptism before John the Baptist and
> >before Christ?
> >
> >
> >soon and very soon we are going to see the King of kings.
> >
> >Sam
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Mashudu Ravhengani [SMTP:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:03 AM
> >> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
> >>
> >> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has written a book called: The Marriage
> >> Covenant: A Biblical Study on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage. I
> >> think it is the best book on this subject. I highly recommend it; in
> >> fact I was so impressed with the book I went and bought a 2nd copy. It
> >> can be found at the ABC.
> >> You can also get some chapters of this book on the WEB; here is a link
> >> to chapter that deals with the issue of divorce:
> >> http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/marriage/5.html (Those without
> >> web access send me a mail at masabatha@yahoo.com)
> >>
> >> The view that Bacchiocchi seem to be expressing is that God hates
> >> divorce under any circumstances, including adultery (see his arguments
> >> in the above link). To address the issues raised by Jongimpi he
> >> suggests a conditional separation (a cooling off period). In my
> >> experience many couples who chose this option eventually found
> >> solution to their problems.
> >>
> >> My problem is not necessarily whether people should divorce or not,
> >> but how can we prevent a situation where people even think of
> >> divorcing?
> >> What are the things that cause one to think that divorce is the best
> >> solution? As Jongimpi has correctly pointed out, there are some
> >> couples who are divorced while they still living together.
> >> How do we prevent divorce in marriage and divorce out of marriage?
> >>
> >> Sorrow and mourning shall flee away!
> >>
> >> Jeremiah
> >>
> >> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/30 1:32 PM >>>
> >> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> >>
> >> Ramo
> >> I think that is a difficult question. I could easily say, God does
> >> not
> >> allow for divorce, except when one partner has proved to be
> >> unfaithful. I
> >> believe this is true and Biblical, but where do we go from there?
> >>
> >> Sometimes when we say God does not approve of divorce we sound as if
> >> we are
> >> saying he approves of one being abused and dehumanised. Some have
> >> stayed
> >> in such relationships preferring to die than to divorce, for God hates
> >> divorce, what does HE love?
> >>
> >> I think the solution here is that, according to our church manual,
> >> which I
> >> think is in harmony with the Bible in this instance. That if one
> >> divorces
> >> for reasons that are unbiblical, God does not recognise that as
> >> divorce. In
> >> the eyes of God the person is still married, not that he/she must stay
> >> in
> >> the relationship, but is still regarded as married by God. He
> >> therefore
> >> cannot enter into any other marital relationship, as long as his/her
> >> partner
> >> is still alive.
> >>
> >> God hates that which leads to divorce. And to my mind absence of
> >> divorce
> >> does not mean presence of happiness in a relationship.
> >>
> >> Two hearts that love God cannot be far apart!
> >>
> >> Jongimpi
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
> >> To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> >> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 3:58 PM
> >> Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
> >>
> >> Jongimpi,
> >>
> >> Apart from those that are explicitly mentioned in the bible, does God
> >> allow
> >> for divorce on other grounds (such as the ones you alluded to)?
> >>
> >> A lot of us have personal experience of living in families that fell
> >> apart
> >> due to divorce and can bear witness to the fact that had the marriage
> >> not
> >> ended, those involved would be worse off in many ways. While not
> >> advocating
> >> divorce, I think that grounds do exist for it in some cases.
> >>
> >> Having said all the above, I fully agree with you that if we follow
> >> God's
> >> lead prior to committing to anyone, we are setting ourselves up to
> >> enjoy
> >> marriage as God meant for us to enjoy it.
> >>
> >> Time doth softly, swiftly glide when there's love at home.
> >>
> >> Ramodise
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> --
> >> The King is even at the door!
> >> ====
> >> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
> >> sa-sda@onelist.com
> >> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> >> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:32:54 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: Adventist World News Update
----- Original Message -----
From: Pandelani Mbedzi <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Adventist World News Update
> From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
>
> thank, for the story from South South America about Ellen White.
>
>
> Paul.
>
>
>
> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >Subject: [sa-sda] Adventist World News Update
> >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:27:03 -0400
> >
> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >
> >from the www
> >
> >City square named after Ellen White
> >The city council of the Southern Brazilian city of Curitiba A city
council
> >in Brazil
> >has given unanimous approval to name one of its squares after Adventist
> >pioneer
> >Ellen White. Curitiba, the capital of Paraná province, is considered a
> >model city
> >because of its care for ecological balance, the percentage of green areas
> >in the
> >city, the efficiency of public transportation, as well as a large number
of
> >squares
> >and parks, cleanliness, urban development and security. The Ellen G.
White
> >Square is in a popular location on a daily exercise route for cycling and
> >running.
> >The square will in inaugurated in November. Zukowski adds that such a
> >decision
> >was greeted with enthusiasm by the Church in Curitiba. The initiative to
> >approach the city council came from Tarso Furlan, a church member in
> >Curitiba
> >who was baptized as a Seventh-day Adventist a few months ago. He was
> >impressed by the books written by Ellen White, and felt that the
population
> >at
> >large should also get to know her important contribution as an Adventist
> >Christian visionary, writer and church leader. The square will feature a
> >sculpture
> >of Ellen G. White, gardening and plaques telling about her.
> >
> >Adventists tortured in jail
> >Adventists found not guity for desecrating a Catholic church in Cape
Verde
> >were
> >tortured while they were held in jail for 12 months awaiting trial "They
> >have
> >been tortured by all kinds of methods, including electric shocks, to try
to
> >force
> >them to confess to a crime that they had not committed," says Felix
> >Monteiro,
> >president of the Adventist Church in the Cape Verde islands. "But God
gave
> >them strength and a great deal of courage to stay on the side of truth."
As
> >reported earlier, the three Adventists, José Maria Monteiro Rodrigues,
> >Jorge
> >Adalberto Ramos Tavares, and Benvindo da Cruz Ramos, were declared
> >innocent of all charges brought against them. Judge Dr. Helena Barreto
> >stated
> >that "the only crime which the three Adventists had committed, if that
> >constitutes
> >a crime, was to be Seventh-day Adventists."
> >
> >Pastors receive AIDS training
> >More than 600 Adventist pastors and their wives have received training in
> >AIDS
> >awareness and counseling regarding HIV infection. Trainers included
doctors
> >and
> >health experts from the U.S. and Australia, as well locals. "This event
> >marks a
> >new day in the fight against HIV/AIDS in Papua New Guinea," says Percy
> >Harrold, health director for the Adventist Church's South Pacific
Division.
> >"No
> >longer can the church bury its head in the sand. No longer can pastors
say
> >'I can
> >only give the Biblical stand.' Now pastors are equipped to give practical
> >advice as
> >well in preventing HIV infection."
> >
> >PUC still top in California
> >Pacific Union College this week was ranked as the top college in
California
> >by
> >"US News and World Report." This is the sixth straight year of top
ranking
> >for
> >PUC. PUC was ranked in the top five for "Best Values" among liberal arts
> >colleges in the Western U.S. -- a ranking based on a ratio of quality to
> >price. It
> >was also ranked among the top ten most "ethnically diverse" campuses in
the
> >Western U. S. PUC scored well in all ranking categories, especially in
> >academic
> >quality, faculty-to-student ratio, and student diversity. PUC ranked in
the
> >top ten
> >among all American colleges and universities for acceptance into medical
> >school.
> >
> >
> >
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> >====
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> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:32:37 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: divorce?
----- Original Message -----
From: Pandelani Mbedzi <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] divorce?
> From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
>
> Divorce is not an option in the bible. Malachi 2:16 God says he hates
> divorce and man whos hearts are dry.
>
> Mbedzi.
>
>
> >From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
> >Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 04:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
> >
> >Dear friends,
> >
> >It has been very quite out there.
> >Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
> >Is divorce and option for a Christian?
> >
> >He will come!
> >
> >Jeremiah
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> >
> >
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> >The King is even at the door!
> >====
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> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:33:01 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: New member
----- Original Message -----
From: Pandelani Mbedzi <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 4:12 PM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] New member
> From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
>
> from mbedzi to Bangesi.
>
> We wil try to preach to them.
>
>
> mbedzi
>
>
> >From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> >Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >Subject: RE: [sa-sda] New member
> >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:45:14 +0200
> >
> >From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> >
> >Jerry,
> >
> >I met someone at lunch time today who particularly told me that she is an
> >atheist. I thought of the discussion on evangelism that has already been
> >discussed. I have been preaching the gospel of a living God to this
> >particular lady to a point of my showing her books to read. She would not
> >accept anything because she is atheist. The other day she gave me a
> >religious note that she got from a church she had visited.
> >
> >My plea to the whole discussion team is find a way of preaching
differently
> >to a so-called atheist.
> >
> >God bless you all.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Mashudu Ravhengani [mailto:ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
> >Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 3:21 PM
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >Subject: Re: [sa-sda] New member
> >
> >
> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >
> >Welcome Nick,
> >
> >You are part of the family,
> >
> >He is at the door!
> >
> >Jeremiah
> >
> > >>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/20 6:31 AM >>>
> >From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I am a new contributor to your discussions. May I take this opportunity
to
> >thank everyone who contributes to the discussions that keep coming up. It
> >is
> >very stimulating to read all the answers and contributions made by all of
> >you. I also hope to have a meaningful contribution in the future.
> >
> >God bless you all
> >
> >Nick
> >
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> The King is even at the door!
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:33:08 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: Merger
----- Original Message -----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 4:02 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] Merger
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
> Nick,
>
> I think Pastor Letseli will be the best person to answer this question, as
he is still involved in the process. It has been more than a year and half
since I was last involved.
>
> I also think that I am the right person to talk about the merger, for I am
confused, frustrated and disillusioned with the whole process.
> As a child I was taught that the Adventist church is the only church has
the complete truth or that tries to follow all what God has said. As I grow
older I made it my business to search the scriptures and I still continue to
search. Every time a have a Bible study with someone I start by telling them
that if we find, from the scriptures, that I was wrong I will change
immediately, even if it means leaving the SDA church. However the more I
study the more I get convinced that this is the true church.
> Now, here lies my problem. When I look at the people in the church and
their behavior I think that I am in the wrong church. This is a
contradiction. How can a church whose foundation can be traced to Bible
prophecy look the way the SDA church looks, at least in our part of the
world?
> In my distress the Lord opened my eyes and I realized that the majority of
those who call themselves Adventist do not know Him.
>
> Do we really need to merger?
> I believe in the concept of the structural major, I believe in it so much
that I know it is a divine plan. There is no doubt in my mind about that.
But the question still remains do we really have to merger?
> I believe that in health reform, I believe in it so much that I know it is
a divine plan. Do we have to force all to be health reformers?
>
> We need to address a big problem, the lack of repentance, then health
reform, etc. will automatically follow. Matt 6:33
> Our problem is that the summer has past and the harvest is gone and we are
not saved. Christ is coming and we are more concern on who has more money
instead of following what God says.
> This reminds me of 22 Octomber1844, they were smoking their pipe and
eating pork while they were waiting for the Lord's return.
>
> He will surely come soon!
>
> Jeremiah
>
>
> >>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 09/03 3:13 AM >>>
> From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
> May I add to the question and ask whether the TC and TOC are not aware of
> this principle and if so, could they have strayed from it? Are we playing
> God in these two conferences?
>
> Jerry, please tell us what the problem is. At least you've been involved.
>
> Here is my other problem. We were told here at work that today is casual
> day. Unfortunately I forgot about this. So I dressed formal as usual. All
I
> did this morning was to simply leave my tie in the car. Could it be that I
> am so brainwashed by the wearing of tie and some type of formal clothing
as
> we normally appear in church. Would it be wrong for me to practice casual
> dress sometimes in church?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Dlongolo [mailto:daniel@4gl.co.za]
> Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 10:37 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
>
>
> From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
>
> Jeremiah,
>
> May you please explain what you mean by "the principle of the priesthood
> of believers".
>
> He will surely come.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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> The King is even at the door!
> ====
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> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 17
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:33:15 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: RE: 1888 Message
----- Original Message -----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>
> Just to add,
> God not only looks at us as individuals but also as a priesthood of
believers, a congregation of saints (His church or His bride).
> Therefore the church needs to speak with one voice and walk in the same
manner.
> Afterall we are our brother's keeper.
>
> At the door! Yes, At the door!
>
> Jeremiah
>
> >>> Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com> 09/03 8:21 AM >>>
> From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
> Daniel,
>
> You really got me here. It is easy to throw words around and hope
> that everybody will be so impressed that they won't even ask what
> they mean.
>
> Let me try. We all know that as individuals we are all directly
> responsible to God, however, the concept of the priesthood believers
> brings another dimension, that is the mutual responsibility and
> accountability between believers.
> God in the Old Testament introduced this concept. It started with His
> covenant with Abraham and again renewed with the children of Israel.
> In Ex 19:6 we see God renewing this convent and introducing this
> concept of the priestly covenant: "And you shall be to Me a kingdom
> of priests and a holy nation.' These [are] the words which you shall
> speak to the children of Israel."
> When Achan sinned, all Israel felt the divine displeasure. The defeat
> at the little town of Ai followed the great victory at Jericho. In
> holding the entire nation responsible, God provided a dramatic lesson
> for us. (P&P pp. 494-497), Whether laity, pastors, or administrators,
> all are to be subject one to another within the body, being both
> accountable to and responsible for each other.
> You will remember how the ten tribes responded to the Rueben and Gad
> when they built an altar by the Jordan. They had learnt their lesson.
>
> This concept move on to the New Testament, Peter says "But you [are]
> a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own
> special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called
> you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
> Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to [your] elders. Yes,
> all of [you] be submissive to one another, and be clothed with
> humility, for "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."
> 6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He
> may exalt you in due time" (1 Peter 2:9; 5:5,6)
>
> There is somewhere where E.G White says that God will not give his
> light to only one man. I just don't have to look this up. But what
> this means is that when God wants to give us new light even though it
> might start with one man, when it is brought to the fellow believers
> they will also be able to see it. This is at the core of the
> principle of the priesthood of believers.
>
> I could continue, but let's give a chance to others.
>
> He will come!
>
> Jeremiah
>
>
> --- Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za> wrote:
> > From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
> >
> > Jeremiah,
> >
> > May you please explain what you mean by "the principle of the
> > priesthood
> > of believers".
> >
> > He will surely come.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> >
>
> >
>
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> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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> The King is even at the door!
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Message: 18
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:33:25 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: RE: 1888 Message
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
> From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
>
> Jeremiah,
>
> May you please explain what you mean by "the principle of the priesthood
> of believers".
>
> He will surely come.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
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>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 19
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:33:31 +0200
From: "L A Young" <layoung@iafrica.com>
Subject: Re: RE: 1888 Message
----- Original Message -----
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> Nick
> about dress, I think you can practise casual dress, whatever that means,
> but you should never practise casual acts.
>
> The heart of the problem is the problem of the heart
>
> Jongimpi
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bangisi, Nikelo <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 9:14 AM
> Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
>
>
> >From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> >
> >May I add to the question and ask whether the TC and TOC are not aware of
> >this principle and if so, could they have strayed from it? Are we playing
> >God in these two conferences?
> >
> >Jerry, please tell us what the problem is. At least you've been involved.
> >
> >Here is my other problem. We were told here at work that today is casual
> >day. Unfortunately I forgot about this. So I dressed formal as usual. All
I
> >did this morning was to simply leave my tie in the car. Could it be that
I
> >am so brainwashed by the wearing of tie and some type of formal clothing
as
> >we normally appear in church. Would it be wrong for me to practice casual
> >dress sometimes in church?
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Daniel Dlongolo [mailto:daniel@4gl.co.za]
> >Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 10:37 AM
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
> >
> >
> >From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
> >
> >Jeremiah,
> >
> >May you please explain what you mean by "the principle of the priesthood
> >of believers".
> >
> >He will surely come.
> >
> >Daniel
> >
> >
> >
> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
> >
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> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >The King is even at the door!
> >====
> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> >To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >
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> >
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> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >The King is even at the door!
> >====
> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> >To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
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> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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