Digest 24, originally sent Fri Sep 3 05:54:31 1999
There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
2. Re: 1888 Message
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
3. RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@xxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
4. Re: RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
5. RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
6. RE: 1888 Message
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
7. RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
8. Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
9. Re: RE: 1888 Message
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
10. Fw: Researchers deplore dearth of marriage stats
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
11. Fw: ANN Bulletin: Aug 31, 1999
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@xxx.xx.xxx
12. Re: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
13. Re: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
14. Re: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
15. Re: RE: Welcome
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
16. RE: Welcome
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@xxxxxxx.xxxx
17. Re: RE: Welcome
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
18. RE: RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@xxx.xx.xxx
19. Re: RE: 1888 Message
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
20. RE: RE: 1888 Message
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
21. Re: Baptism.
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
22. Re: RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
23. Re: RE: 1888 Message
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 04:21:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Jongimpi,
Servant of the Lord, I think we should now let divorce rest in
peace/pieces. My original question still remains, How can we nature a
healthy marriage, one that will not need a deadly pill called
divorce?
What are things that create conflicts in marriage? And how can they
be avoided or resolved?
Heaven help us all!
Jeremiah
--- Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> Mashudu
> First of all let me say you are surprising!!! I enjoyed your
> analysis of
> what happened in 1888, and I wish we could dwell on it for some
> time. The
> reason being that there are so many Adventists who are either
> ignorant or
> confused about the event. Keep it up Jerry, your interest in
> spiritual
> things and your commitment to your church is something to be
> emulated.
>
> Back to our undying topic on divorce. Let me just make two brief
> remarks
> and also say that I do appreciate your input and I do not disagree
> with you
> a bit, I am with you all the way, man of God.
> The last paragraph from the text you quoted, has these words,"But
> if the
> unbeliever leaves, let him do so..." That is where I made the
> comment that
> there is little you can do. You may still love him, but if the
> unbeliever,
> in this case, this could also be and Adventists who is an
> unbeliever, who is
> divorced from Christ, if he leaves, let him do so, you are no
> longer bound
> to him. You may still love him, to let him go, is one sign that
> you love
> him. That is where also I said that love can, not must, but can
> accept
> rejection, this would apply in this case.
>
> The second point I must make, that is where Nick, I think raised
> the
> concern. This applies to the "exceptional clause" that is
> recorded in
> Matt. 19:9, "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except
> for
> marital unfaithfulness..." This suggests to me that divorce can
> be allowed
> in the case as shown above. This also does not mean that one must
> divorce
> his partner using this exceptional clause, but I think it is more
> on the
> "can" not on the "must".
>
> In short, if an unbeliever wants to leave, let him. One may marry
> a
> partner who is a believer but after some time, for various reasons,
> divorces
> Christ, unless we believe in once saved always saved. In such a
> case if the
> unbeliever decides to leave, let him. Love can accept rejection,
> you can
> still continue to love him, but you cannot force him not to divorce
> you, nor
> are you guilty if he does. But if he does not leave you, as you
> correctly
> pointed out, it is your duty to win him back to Christ first, and
> not to
> you, for that is where the problem is. But there is a lot
> involved in this
> than the stories we read from magazines. I believe that a person
> may
> preach so well and sing so melodiously, if he beats and abuses his
> family,
> he is an unbeliever, not to be divorced but to be won back to
> Christ - but
> if he decides to leave, let him. But you can continue loving him,
> even
> though you may not be his partner. If you can love your enemies
> and even
> die for them, you can at least continue loving the partner you were
> once
> married to, by speaking well about him in front of your kids and
> praying for
> him in the presence of your kids. This in many cases can also
> help in the
> trauma that kids suffer after divorce. Remember some kids suffer
> tremendously, not only from divorce, but also from witnessing
> abuse after
> abuse in their homes. at times it may even be difficult to win
> them back
> to Christ, especially when the partner professed to be a believer,
> but
> continue to live like an unbeliever.
>
> The last point I made about the exceptional clause, is what the SDA
> believes
> currently, I might be wrong, but that is how I read the manual.
>
> I hope the above will not be looked upon as a defence for my faith.
> For I
> do not think that there is anyone attacking my faith.
>
> I am just a student, who can be confused at times, but I love
> JESUS, and I
> love my wife and kids. Sometimes such discussions help clarify
> the issues
> and remove the mist of confusion, so I appreciate your
> contribution, you
> have forced me to think. I might still be wrong, you may still
> disagree,
> but thanks God for the opportunity to air our views.
>
> Love at home.
>
> Jongimpi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 12:24 AM
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >
> >
> >Jongimpi,
> >
> >Thank you for your response, I always appreciate the depth and the
> analysis
> that you bring to the discussion. Your ability to see issues in
> more than
> one dimensions always marvels me; it encourages me to continue to
> debate
> with you for I continue to learn. Having said that, I would like to
> say that
> I think I understand the point you are trying to make, however,
> since your
> message could be interpreted in way that could be misleading to
> others, I
> strongly disagree with your position.
> >
> >You wrote:
> >>The only way to do it is to make sure that God resides in
> >>both hearts, the husband and the wife. If one of them divorces
> God,
> there
> >>is little we can do.
> >
> >You say "there is little we can do", but your position suggests
> that there
> is much we can do, for I do not consider divorce as something that
> should be
> considered "little"
> >What does Paul say to Christians who are married to those whom God
> does not
> reside in their hearts?
> >1Cor 7:10 *16, NIV
> >"To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife
> must not
> separate from her husband.
> >But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled
> to her
> husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
> >To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a
> wife who is
> not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not
> divorce her.
> >And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is
> willing to
> live with her, she must not divorce him.
> >For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife,
> and the
> unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband.
> Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are
> holy.
> >But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or
> woman is
> not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in
> peace. How do
> you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you
> know,
> husband, whether you will save your wife?"
> >
> >In our early discussions it was suggested that they way to reach
> unbelievers who are inside and outside the church is to befriend
> them. I
> wonder if the same approach can't be used to reach out to an
> unbelieving
> spouse.
> >
> >Let me make this very clear I am not advocating that a woman/man
> should
> remain in the house as the partner loads her/his gun, that will be
> suicide.
> In my previous mail I suggested a 'cooling off period' as way to
> resolve
> some problems (especially domestic violence), but not divorce!
> >
> >My problem is that if God said it I believe it. He says let no man
> put
> asunder! He still says I hate divorce! As Nick correctly pointed
> out, the
> vow does not say until you husband becomes an unbeliever. But it
> does say
>
=== message truncated ===
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:54:37 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: 1888 Message
Jeremiah,
I thank you very much for the light you have given me concerning the 1888
message of Righteousness by faith. I thank the Lord for this forum, it is
a blessing indeed.
God bless.
Daniel
On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Masabatha Online wrote:
> Daniel,
> These young men (Waggoner & Jones) violated a great principle that
> had united the pioneers from the beginning of the movement, and
> that's the principle of the priesthood of believers. The Adventist
> church was founded by men and woman who came together to study and
> search the scriptures. If one finds a new light he/she brings it to
> the brethren for discussion. A typical example is that of the Sabbath
> truth, after Joseph Bates came across the Sabbath truth he brought it
> to the fellow believers for discussion.
> These young men (Waggoner & Jones) were very sharp in their debates
> and at times portraying the spirit of showing off. For this reason
> Ellen White rebuke them in 1887, she wrote that Waggoner lacked
> "humility and meekness", while Jones needed to cultivate "practical
> godliness" Manus 15 1888
> In early 1888 Ellen White also rebuked them for publishing their
> views in the 'Signs of the times', she wrote:
> "I have no hesitancy in saying you have made a mistake here. You have
> departed from the positive directions God has given upon this matter,
> and only harm will be the result. This is not in God's order. You
> have now set the example for others to do as you have done, to feel
> at liberty to put in their various ideas and theories and bring them
> before the public, because you have done this. This will bring in a
> state of things that you have not dreamed of. . . . It is no small
> matter for you to come out in the Signs as you have done, and God has
> plainly revealed that such things should not be done. We must keep
> before the world a united front. Satan will triumph to see
> differences among Seventh-day Adventists. These questions are not
> vital points. . . . "
> Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 75,76
> She again wrote: "I do not think that years will wipe out the
> impressions made at our last conference. I know how these things
> work. I am satisfied that we must have more of Jesus and less of
> self. If there is difference upon any parts of the understanding of
> some particular passage of Scripture, then do not be with pen or
> voice making your differences apparent and making a breach when there
> is no need of this."
> Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 79,
> This clearly shows that the old guards (Butler, Smith and co.) were
> not over reacting. The fact of the matter is that they were errors on
> both sides, even though the old guards not only had a wrong strategy
> they also had a wrong theology.
> What should be the reaction of the church's leadership when a pastor
> of the church decides to start preaching a new theology? He will be
> violating this principle of the priesthood of believers. What do you
> do when have found a new light? You bring it to the fellow believers
> for discussion and if it is from God, the Holy Spirit open the eyes
> of the brethren to see the light.
> This was the problem with the church in Germany during the First
> World War, when the German union decided to go against the stand of
> the church of non-combatancy. The results were the formation of the
> Reformed SDA church.
> This principle of the priesthood of believers prevented the split
> along Divisions lines on the policy of ordination of woman in the
> 1995 GC session.
>
> He will come!
>
> Jeremiah
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:16:36 +0200
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@xxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Bangisi
There was a couple that was having some serious marital problems. Both
were Christians and believed in this phrase 'Till death do us part'. A
marriage counsellor recommended that they go on holiday together to try
and build up the marriage.
So they took a trip to the Kruger National Park. As theyr were enjoying
the stay, a stray lion came into their chalet. It pounced on the woman,
and she began screaming asking her husband to save her. The husband went
for his gun and before he could fire the same phrase came to his mind
'Till death do us part' and he lowered his gun and never took the shot.
The lady died, having devoured by the lion.
Mxolisi
> ----------
> From: Bangisi, Nikelo[SMTP:NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com]
> Reply To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:34 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
> From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
> Jongimpi,
>
> How do you go around the vow that says "Till death do us part"? This
> does
> not say "Till divorce do us part"? Could it be that this vow might
> also
> imply the death of love on one of the parties? I am worried by the
> fact that
> if one could wake up one morning not loving anymore, if such a thing
> is
> there, then divorce will even be made easier and authorised under any
> circumstances. I am becoming confused.
>
> We cannot just divorce.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:19 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> Mashudu
> I agree with you man of God, I am on your side. My fear is that we
> can
> over burden love. I do not subscribe to the notion that love can
> change
> everything. God loves us, he sent his only son to die for us, but
> not all
> of us will be saved, love has not failed we have failed to respond.
>
> Currently, I have a serious case of a woman who, in her own way, has
> done
> everything to show love to her husband, and the last thing she was
> told
> after a series of abuse, was that Let us divorce. Her question, is,
> where
> have I failed? I loved my husband, why did that not work? She
> thinks that
> maybe she did not love him strongly.
>
> With this kind of experience, I think it is only proper for us to look
> at
> the other side of love, and that is, Love is strong. God will have
> to
> accept one day that there are people who do not want His love, love
> can be
> rejected, but cannot be destroyed.
>
> Let us love them not because we want them to change, but because we
> have
> been changed by the love of God. Love can never fail, but those we
> love
> can fail us.
>
> Love at home
>
> Jongimpi
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 6:25 PM
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >
> >
> >I don't know about obsession, but the marriage vow still says '"TILL
> DEATH
> DO US APART"
> >As much as God CAN change the tasteless water into a sweet wine, He
> CAN
> sweeten a tasteless marriage. As much as He CAN create something out
> of
> nothing, He CAN create love where there is no love.
> >As long as there is life there is hope.
> >
> >Hold on! Wait upon the Lord, for He is able!
> >
> >Never give up!
> >
> >Jeremiah
> >
> >>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/31 11:07 AM >>>
> >From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> >
> >Mashudu and Nick
> >Real love can also accept rejection, but obsession cannot.
> >
> >Love at home
> >Jongimpi
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> >Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:04 PM
> >Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
> >
> >
> >>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >>
> >>Nick wrote:
> >>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How
> should a
> >>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a
> conclusive
> >>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you
> get is
> "I
> >>>don't know, I still have to find out".
> >>
> >>To make the question even broader, what do you do when your
> husband/wife
> >does not love you any more?
> >>How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her
> love?
> >>Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other person
> needs
> >to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is not
> about
> >doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only your
> part,
> >but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might
> not see
> >your 50% as you see it.
> >>
> >>If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you
> too'. I
> >think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For love
> begets
> >love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real love
> can
> >break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is
> >irresistible. Real love comes from God.
> >>
> >>That's my try!
> >>
> >>With God, all things are possible!
> >>
> >>Jeremiah
> >>
> >>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM
> >>>
> >>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> >>
> >>My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce
> contributes
> >to
> >>the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral
> standards
> >>have declined in the society, in general, law makers have
> conveniently
> >>opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the
> land.
> >For
> >>example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE
> still
> >>exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted. The
> >enquiry
> >>that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of
> the
> >>continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may
> themselves
> >be
> >>divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties
> themselves.
> >>
> >>There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown
> of
> >>marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that
> require a
> >>divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship
> has
> >>irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12
> months
> >>separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove this
> point.
> >>Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
> >>
> >>From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's office
> I
> >found
> >>surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by
> the
> male
> >>folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me
> think
> >>also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many
> "wives"
> >>whereas one is married to his own wife.
> >>
> >>from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been largely
> >affected
> >>by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting in
> the
> >>church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault
> his own
> >>wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious
> to her
> >>without having been converted to the world.
> >>
> >>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How
> should a
> >>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a
> conclusive
> >>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get
> is "I
> >>don't know, I still have to find out".
> >>
> >>God bless you all.
> >>
> >>Nick
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
> >>Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
> >>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
> >>
> >>
> >>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
> >>
> >>Dear friends,
> >>
> >>It has been very quite out there.
> >>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
> >>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
> >>
> >>He will come!
> >>
> >>Jeremiah
> >>__________________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 09:41:19 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Mxolisi,
Is this a true story?
If it is, you were wrong when you said that both were Christians, one professed to be a Christian, but he is a murderer.
I actually think he must be charged with second-degree murder.
Nick, what do you think? From the legal point of view, can we get him arrested?
Signs of the times are everywhere!
He is at the door!
Jeremiah
>>> Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA> 09/02 9:16 AM >>>
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA>
Bangisi
There was a couple that was having some serious marital problems. Both
were Christians and believed in this phrase 'Till death do us part'. A
marriage counsellor recommended that they go on holiday together to try
and build up the marriage.
So they took a trip to the Kruger National Park. As theyr were enjoying
the stay, a stray lion came into their chalet. It pounced on the woman,
and she began screaming asking her husband to save her. The husband went
for his gun and before he could fire the same phrase came to his mind
'Till death do us part' and he lowered his gun and never took the shot.
The lady died, having devoured by the lion.
Mxolisi
> ----------
> From: Bangisi, Nikelo[SMTP:NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com]
> Reply To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:34 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
> From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
> Jongimpi,
>
> How do you go around the vow that says "Till death do us part"? This
> does
> not say "Till divorce do us part"? Could it be that this vow might
> also
> imply the death of love on one of the parties? I am worried by the
> fact that
> if one could wake up one morning not loving anymore, if such a thing
> is
> there, then divorce will even be made easier and authorised under any
> circumstances. I am becoming confused.
>
> We cannot just divorce.
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:46:19 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
Subject: RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Mxolisi,
I wish to understand that the story you provided is not real. Was the man
himself not devoured by the lion? Or did he eventually kill it?
All I was trying to establish is the validity of the expression in today's
society, particularly in the church.
I have learned to protect my wife form physical and spiritual death.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nxumalo T [mailto:Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA]
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 3:17 PM
To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com'
Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA>
Bangisi
There was a couple that was having some serious marital problems. Both
were Christians and believed in this phrase 'Till death do us part'. A
marriage counsellor recommended that they go on holiday together to try
and build up the marriage.
So they took a trip to the Kruger National Park. As theyr were enjoying
the stay, a stray lion came into their chalet. It pounced on the woman,
and she began screaming asking her husband to save her. The husband went
for his gun and before he could fire the same phrase came to his mind
'Till death do us part' and he lowered his gun and never took the shot.
The lady died, having devoured by the lion.
Mxolisi
> ----------
> From: Bangisi, Nikelo[SMTP:NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com]
> Reply To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:34 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
> From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
> Jongimpi,
>
> How do you go around the vow that says "Till death do us part"? This
> does
> not say "Till divorce do us part"? Could it be that this vow might
> also
> imply the death of love on one of the parties? I am worried by the
> fact that
> if one could wake up one morning not loving anymore, if such a thing
> is
> there, then divorce will even be made easier and authorised under any
> circumstances. I am becoming confused.
>
> We cannot just divorce.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:19 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> Mashudu
> I agree with you man of God, I am on your side. My fear is that we
> can
> over burden love. I do not subscribe to the notion that love can
> change
> everything. God loves us, he sent his only son to die for us, but
> not all
> of us will be saved, love has not failed we have failed to respond.
>
> Currently, I have a serious case of a woman who, in her own way, has
> done
> everything to show love to her husband, and the last thing she was
> told
> after a series of abuse, was that Let us divorce. Her question, is,
> where
> have I failed? I loved my husband, why did that not work? She
> thinks that
> maybe she did not love him strongly.
>
> With this kind of experience, I think it is only proper for us to look
> at
> the other side of love, and that is, Love is strong. God will have
> to
> accept one day that there are people who do not want His love, love
> can be
> rejected, but cannot be destroyed.
>
> Let us love them not because we want them to change, but because we
> have
> been changed by the love of God. Love can never fail, but those we
> love
> can fail us.
>
> Love at home
>
> Jongimpi
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 6:25 PM
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >
> >
> >I don't know about obsession, but the marriage vow still says '"TILL
> DEATH
> DO US APART"
> >As much as God CAN change the tasteless water into a sweet wine, He
> CAN
> sweeten a tasteless marriage. As much as He CAN create something out
> of
> nothing, He CAN create love where there is no love.
> >As long as there is life there is hope.
> >
> >Hold on! Wait upon the Lord, for He is able!
> >
> >Never give up!
> >
> >Jeremiah
> >
> >>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/31 11:07 AM >>>
> >From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> >
> >Mashudu and Nick
> >Real love can also accept rejection, but obsession cannot.
> >
> >Love at home
> >Jongimpi
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> >Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:04 PM
> >Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
> >
> >
> >>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >>
> >>Nick wrote:
> >>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How
> should a
> >>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a
> conclusive
> >>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you
> get is
> "I
> >>>don't know, I still have to find out".
> >>
> >>To make the question even broader, what do you do when your
> husband/wife
> >does not love you any more?
> >>How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her
> love?
> >>Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other person
> needs
> >to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is not
> about
> >doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only your
> part,
> >but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might
> not see
> >your 50% as you see it.
> >>
> >>If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you
> too'. I
> >think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For love
> begets
> >love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real love
> can
> >break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is
> >irresistible. Real love comes from God.
> >>
> >>That's my try!
> >>
> >>With God, all things are possible!
> >>
> >>Jeremiah
> >>
> >>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM
> >>>
> >>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> >>
> >>My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce
> contributes
> >to
> >>the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral
> standards
> >>have declined in the society, in general, law makers have
> conveniently
> >>opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the
> land.
> >For
> >>example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE
> still
> >>exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted. The
> >enquiry
> >>that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of
> the
> >>continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may
> themselves
> >be
> >>divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties
> themselves.
> >>
> >>There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown
> of
> >>marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that
> require a
> >>divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship
> has
> >>irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12
> months
> >>separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove this
> point.
> >>Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
> >>
> >>From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's office
> I
> >found
> >>surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by
> the
> male
> >>folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me
> think
> >>also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many
> "wives"
> >>whereas one is married to his own wife.
> >>
> >>from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been largely
> >affected
> >>by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting in
> the
> >>church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault
> his own
> >>wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious
> to her
> >>without having been converted to the world.
> >>
> >>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How
> should a
> >>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a
> conclusive
> >>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get
> is "I
> >>don't know, I still have to find out".
> >>
> >>God bless you all.
> >>
> >>Nick
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
> >>Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
> >>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
> >>
> >>
> >>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
> >>
> >>Dear friends,
> >>
> >>It has been very quite out there.
> >>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
> >>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
> >>
> >>He will come!
> >>
> >>Jeremiah
> >>__________________________________________________
> >>Do You Yahoo!?
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> >>
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:10:14 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
Subject: RE: 1888 Message
Jerry,
This is a refreshing subject. I agree in toto that we should not act
independently on certain issues. However this principle must surely have
limitations. For example one brother wrote an article about the failure of
TC and TOC to merge here in South Africa.(after all it is a mystery to me as
to why they do not eventually merge).He sent it to be published in our
Maranatha magazine. Was it ever published? NO!! When you try to establish
why this was not done you get frustrating answers.
I submit that sometimes when those who lead fail to open a forum for
discussion then we become bound to act independently.
I believe we will enter heaven as individuals, individuals who have been
transformed into a perfect body of Jesus - the church.
God bless you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Dlongolo [mailto:daniel@4gl.co.za]
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 4:55 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
Jeremiah,
I thank you very much for the light you have given me concerning the 1888
message of Righteousness by faith. I thank the Lord for this forum, it is
a blessing indeed.
God bless.
Daniel
On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Masabatha Online wrote:
> Daniel,
> These young men (Waggoner & Jones) violated a great principle that
> had united the pioneers from the beginning of the movement, and
> that's the principle of the priesthood of believers. The Adventist
> church was founded by men and woman who came together to study and
> search the scriptures. If one finds a new light he/she brings it to
> the brethren for discussion. A typical example is that of the Sabbath
> truth, after Joseph Bates came across the Sabbath truth he brought it
> to the fellow believers for discussion.
> These young men (Waggoner & Jones) were very sharp in their debates
> and at times portraying the spirit of showing off. For this reason
> Ellen White rebuke them in 1887, she wrote that Waggoner lacked
> "humility and meekness", while Jones needed to cultivate "practical
> godliness" Manus 15 1888
> In early 1888 Ellen White also rebuked them for publishing their
> views in the 'Signs of the times', she wrote:
> "I have no hesitancy in saying you have made a mistake here. You have
> departed from the positive directions God has given upon this matter,
> and only harm will be the result. This is not in God's order. You
> have now set the example for others to do as you have done, to feel
> at liberty to put in their various ideas and theories and bring them
> before the public, because you have done this. This will bring in a
> state of things that you have not dreamed of. . . . It is no small
> matter for you to come out in the Signs as you have done, and God has
> plainly revealed that such things should not be done. We must keep
> before the world a united front. Satan will triumph to see
> differences among Seventh-day Adventists. These questions are not
> vital points. . . . "
> Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 75,76
> She again wrote: "I do not think that years will wipe out the
> impressions made at our last conference. I know how these things
> work. I am satisfied that we must have more of Jesus and less of
> self. If there is difference upon any parts of the understanding of
> some particular passage of Scripture, then do not be with pen or
> voice making your differences apparent and making a breach when there
> is no need of this."
> Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 79,
> This clearly shows that the old guards (Butler, Smith and co.) were
> not over reacting. The fact of the matter is that they were errors on
> both sides, even though the old guards not only had a wrong strategy
> they also had a wrong theology.
> What should be the reaction of the church's leadership when a pastor
> of the church decides to start preaching a new theology? He will be
> violating this principle of the priesthood of believers. What do you
> do when have found a new light? You bring it to the fellow believers
> for discussion and if it is from God, the Holy Spirit open the eyes
> of the brethren to see the light.
> This was the problem with the church in Germany during the First
> World War, when the German union decided to go against the stand of
> the church of non-combatancy. The results were the formation of the
> Reformed SDA church.
> This principle of the priesthood of believers prevented the split
> along Divisions lines on the policy of ordination of woman in the
> 1995 GC session.
>
> He will come!
>
> Jeremiah
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:44:31 +0200
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Subject: RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Bangisi,
I think the focus should not be on circumstances that may make divorce
easier, but rather to entrench the roots of love for it to withstand any
circumstance. Love should not be reactive and defensive, it should be
proactive and protective. It brings me to the point that it is not a
foregone conclusion that if you become a christian today you will still
be one tomorrow. Therefore, in our matrimonial relationship with Christ
we always need to "watch and pray" and be greatful that we still have a
good and growing relationship with Him from one day to the other.
It therefore follows, that there is no guarantee (because love respects
the exercise of free choice) that, for example, your spouse will want or
still be married to you tomorrow. We need to pray and thank God always
for the "miracle" that we are still holding on in the faith and that our
spouses still see it benefial to stay married to us (once saved always
saved?). If we don't do this we become less appreciative and begin to
take things for granted, and this may inhibit our connection to the
Vine!!!!!!
He is coming
Andrew
>>> Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA> 09/02/99 03:16PM >>>
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA>
Bangisi
There was a couple that was having some serious marital problems. Both
were Christians and believed in this phrase 'Till death do us part'. A
marriage counsellor recommended that they go on holiday together to
try
and build up the marriage.
So they took a trip to the Kruger National Park. As theyr were
enjoying
the stay, a stray lion came into their chalet. It pounced on the
woman,
and she began screaming asking her husband to save her. The husband
went
for his gun and before he could fire the same phrase came to his mind
'Till death do us part' and he lowered his gun and never took the
shot.
The lady died, having devoured by the lion.
Mxolisi
> ----------
> From: Bangisi, Nikelo[SMTP:NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com]
> Reply To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:34 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
> From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
> Jongimpi,
>
> How do you go around the vow that says "Till death do us part"? This
> does
> not say "Till divorce do us part"? Could it be that this vow might
> also
> imply the death of love on one of the parties? I am worried by the
> fact that
> if one could wake up one morning not loving anymore, if such a thing
> is
> there, then divorce will even be made easier and authorised under
any
> circumstances. I am becoming confused.
>
> We cannot just divorce.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:19 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> Mashudu
> I agree with you man of God, I am on your side. My fear is that
we
> can
> over burden love. I do not subscribe to the notion that love can
> change
> everything. God loves us, he sent his only son to die for us, but
> not all
> of us will be saved, love has not failed we have failed to respond.
>
> Currently, I have a serious case of a woman who, in her own way, has
> done
> everything to show love to her husband, and the last thing she was
> told
> after a series of abuse, was that Let us divorce. Her question,
is,
> where
> have I failed? I loved my husband, why did that not work? She
> thinks that
> maybe she did not love him strongly.
>
> With this kind of experience, I think it is only proper for us to
look
> at
> the other side of love, and that is, Love is strong. God will have
> to
> accept one day that there are people who do not want His love, love
> can be
> rejected, but cannot be destroyed.
>
> Let us love them not because we want them to change, but because we
> have
> been changed by the love of God. Love can never fail, but those we
> love
> can fail us.
>
> Love at home
>
> Jongimpi
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 6:25 PM
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >
> >
> >I don't know about obsession, but the marriage vow still says
'"TILL
> DEATH
> DO US APART"
> >As much as God CAN change the tasteless water into a sweet wine, He
> CAN
> sweeten a tasteless marriage. As much as He CAN create something out
> of
> nothing, He CAN create love where there is no love.
> >As long as there is life there is hope.
> >
> >Hold on! Wait upon the Lord, for He is able!
> >
> >Never give up!
> >
> >Jeremiah
> >
> >>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/31 11:07 AM >>>
> >From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
> >
> >Mashudu and Nick
> >Real love can also accept rejection, but obsession cannot.
> >
> >Love at home
> >Jongimpi
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> >Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:04 PM
> >Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
> >
> >
> >>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >>
> >>Nick wrote:
> >>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How
> should a
> >>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a
> conclusive
> >>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you
> get is
> "I
> >>>don't know, I still have to find out".
> >>
> >>To make the question even broader, what do you do when your
> husband/wife
> >does not love you any more?
> >>How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her
> love?
> >>Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other
person
> needs
> >to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is
not
> about
> >doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only
your
> part,
> >but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might
> not see
> >your 50% as you see it.
> >>
> >>If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you
> too'. I
> >think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For
love
> begets
> >love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real
love
> can
> >break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is
> >irresistible. Real love comes from God.
> >>
> >>That's my try!
> >>
> >>With God, all things are possible!
> >>
> >>Jeremiah
> >>
> >>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM
> >>>
> >>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
> >>
> >>My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce
> contributes
> >to
> >>the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral
> standards
> >>have declined in the society, in general, law makers have
> conveniently
> >>opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the
> land.
> >For
> >>example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE
> still
> >>exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted.
The
> >enquiry
> >>that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of
> the
> >>continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may
> themselves
> >be
> >>divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties
> themselves.
> >>
> >>There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown
> of
> >>marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that
> require a
> >>divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship
> has
> >>irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12
> months
> >>separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove
this
> point.
> >>Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
> >>
> >>From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's
office
> I
> >found
> >>surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by
> the
> male
> >>folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me
> think
> >>also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many
> "wives"
> >>whereas one is married to his own wife.
> >>
> >>from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been
largely
> >affected
> >>by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting
in
> the
> >>church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault
> his own
> >>wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious
> to her
> >>without having been converted to the world.
> >>
> >>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How
> should a
> >>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a
> conclusive
> >>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you
get
> is "I
> >>don't know, I still have to find out".
> >>
> >>God bless you all.
> >>
> >>Nick
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
> >>Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
> >>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> >>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
> >>
> >>
> >>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
> >>
> >>Dear friends,
> >>
> >>It has been very quite out there.
> >>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
> >>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
> >>
> >>He will come!
> >>
> >>Jeremiah
> >>__________________________________________________
> >>Do You Yahoo!?
> >>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> >>
> >>
> >>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
> >>
> >>ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
> >>
>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >>The King is even at the door!
> >>====
> >>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
> sa-sda@onelist.com
> >>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >>
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> ----------------------------
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at
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> ">Click</a>
> >>
>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
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> >>====
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> sa-sda@onelist.com
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>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>====
> >>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
> sa-sda@onelist.com
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> >>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to
sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >
> >
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> ">Click</a>
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>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >====
> >To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
> sa-sda@onelist.com
> >To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >====
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> sa-sda@onelist.com
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>
>
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> ====
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> sa-sda@onelist.com
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> ====
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:57:15 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Nxumalo
I think I get your point. This man's situation was saved by a lion. Maybe
he should have allowed the Lion of Judah to take care of his problem, who
knows, maybe he would still be married and happily so.
Till death do us part, not if we can help it.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA>
To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA>
>
>Bangisi
>
>There was a couple that was having some serious marital problems. Both
>were Christians and believed in this phrase 'Till death do us part'. A
>marriage counsellor recommended that they go on holiday together to try
>and build up the marriage.
>
>So they took a trip to the Kruger National Park. As theyr were enjoying
>the stay, a stray lion came into their chalet. It pounced on the woman,
>and she began screaming asking her husband to save her. The husband went
>for his gun and before he could fire the same phrase came to his mind
>'Till death do us part' and he lowered his gun and never took the shot.
>
>The lady died, having devoured by the lion.
>
>Mxolisi
>> ----------
>> From: Bangisi, Nikelo[SMTP:NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com]
>> Reply To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:34 AM
>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>>
>> From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>>
>> Jongimpi,
>>
>> How do you go around the vow that says "Till death do us part"? This
>> does
>> not say "Till divorce do us part"? Could it be that this vow might
>> also
>> imply the death of love on one of the parties? I am worried by the
>> fact that
>> if one could wake up one morning not loving anymore, if such a thing
>> is
>> there, then divorce will even be made easier and authorised under any
>> circumstances. I am becoming confused.
>>
>> We cannot just divorce.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:19 AM
>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>>
>>
>> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>>
>> Mashudu
>> I agree with you man of God, I am on your side. My fear is that we
>> can
>> over burden love. I do not subscribe to the notion that love can
>> change
>> everything. God loves us, he sent his only son to die for us, but
>> not all
>> of us will be saved, love has not failed we have failed to respond.
>>
>> Currently, I have a serious case of a woman who, in her own way, has
>> done
>> everything to show love to her husband, and the last thing she was
>> told
>> after a series of abuse, was that Let us divorce. Her question, is,
>> where
>> have I failed? I loved my husband, why did that not work? She
>> thinks that
>> maybe she did not love him strongly.
>>
>> With this kind of experience, I think it is only proper for us to look
>> at
>> the other side of love, and that is, Love is strong. God will have
>> to
>> accept one day that there are people who do not want His love, love
>> can be
>> rejected, but cannot be destroyed.
>>
>> Let us love them not because we want them to change, but because we
>> have
>> been changed by the love of God. Love can never fail, but those we
>> love
>> can fail us.
>>
>> Love at home
>>
>> Jongimpi
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 6:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>>
>>
>> >From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>> >
>> >
>> >I don't know about obsession, but the marriage vow still says '"TILL
>> DEATH
>> DO US APART"
>> >As much as God CAN change the tasteless water into a sweet wine, He
>> CAN
>> sweeten a tasteless marriage. As much as He CAN create something out
>> of
>> nothing, He CAN create love where there is no love.
>> >As long as there is life there is hope.
>> >
>> >Hold on! Wait upon the Lord, for He is able!
>> >
>> >Never give up!
>> >
>> >Jeremiah
>> >
>> >>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/31 11:07 AM >>>
>> >From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>> >
>> >Mashudu and Nick
>> >Real love can also accept rejection, but obsession cannot.
>> >
>> >Love at home
>> >Jongimpi
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>> >To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>> >Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:04 PM
>> >Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>> >>
>> >>Nick wrote:
>> >>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How
>> should a
>> >>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a
>> conclusive
>> >>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you
>> get is
>> "I
>> >>>don't know, I still have to find out".
>> >>
>> >>To make the question even broader, what do you do when your
>> husband/wife
>> >does not love you any more?
>> >>How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her
>> love?
>> >>Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other person
>> needs
>> >to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is not
>> about
>> >doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only your
>> part,
>> >but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might
>> not see
>> >your 50% as you see it.
>> >>
>> >>If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you
>> too'. I
>> >think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For love
>> begets
>> >love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real love
>> can
>> >break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is
>> >irresistible. Real love comes from God.
>> >>
>> >>That's my try!
>> >>
>> >>With God, all things are possible!
>> >>
>> >>Jeremiah
>> >>
>> >>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM
>> >>>
>> >>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>> >>
>> >>My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce
>> contributes
>> >to
>> >>the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral
>> standards
>> >>have declined in the society, in general, law makers have
>> conveniently
>> >>opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the
>> land.
>> >For
>> >>example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE
>> still
>> >>exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted. The
>> >enquiry
>> >>that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of
>> the
>> >>continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may
>> themselves
>> >be
>> >>divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties
>> themselves.
>> >>
>> >>There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown
>> of
>> >>marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that
>> require a
>> >>divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship
>> has
>> >>irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12
>> months
>> >>separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove this
>> point.
>> >>Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
>> >>
>> >>From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's office
>> I
>> >found
>> >>surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by
>> the
>> male
>> >>folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me
>> think
>> >>also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many
>> "wives"
>> >>whereas one is married to his own wife.
>> >>
>> >>from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been largely
>> >affected
>> >>by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting in
>> the
>> >>church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault
>> his own
>> >>wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious
>> to her
>> >>without having been converted to the world.
>> >>
>> >>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How
>> should a
>> >>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a
>> conclusive
>> >>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get
>> is "I
>> >>don't know, I still have to find out".
>> >>
>> >>God bless you all.
>> >>
>> >>Nick
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
>> >>Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
>> >>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> >>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>> >>
>> >>Dear friends,
>> >>
>> >>It has been very quite out there.
>> >>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
>> >>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
>> >>
>> >>He will come!
>> >>
>> >>Jeremiah
>> >>__________________________________________________
>> >>Do You Yahoo!?
>> >>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
>> ----------------------------
>> >>
>> >>ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
>> >>
>> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>> >>The King is even at the door!
>> >>====
>> >>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
>> sa-sda@onelist.com
>> >>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>> >>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>> >>
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>> ----------------------------
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>> >>ATTN ONELIST USERS: stay current on the latest activities,
>> >>programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
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>> ">Click</a>
>> >>
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>> >>====
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>> sa-sda@onelist.com
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>> sa-sda@onelist.com
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:26:33 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: 1888 Message
Nick,
I understand your frustration. And I must admit I do not have an answer. I guess it depends on what was on the article. And I wonder if Maranatha is really a magazine to discuss issues. It seems to me that it is more of a newsletter to report on evangelism accomplishments. From time to time they do have an article addressing some theological topic, but I do not think that's their focus.
This is one of the main reasons we started Masabatha Online (www.masabatha.org); an open environment to discuss issues that affect us as Adventist in Southern Africa.
It is interesting that you brought this issue in the context of the discussion about the priesthood of believers, because the decision to implement the structural merger is the results of the action taken at the GC 1989 autumn council. Someone who was there told me that there was a big debate on this issue, and finally the decision was taken to implement the structural merger.
So, as far as the subject of the merger is concerned, the church did follow the principle of the priesthood of believers.
However, we also need to realize that we are not supposed to display our dirty laundry to the public, but that does not sanction indiscriminate censorship.
Having said that I can understand the frustration with the TOC/TC merger. Before I left SA I was a member of the TOC merger committee and I was just as frustrated or even more.
Nick, do you have a copy of the article? If you do, please send it to masabatha@yahoo.com and we will publish it on our site.
The King is even at the door!
Jeremiah
>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 09/02 10:10 AM >>>
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
Jerry,
This is a refreshing subject. I agree in toto that we should not act
independently on certain issues. However this principle must surely have
limitations. For example one brother wrote an article about the failure of
TC and TOC to merge here in South Africa.(after all it is a mystery to me as
to why they do not eventually merge).He sent it to be published in our
Maranatha magazine. Was it ever published? NO!! When you try to establish
why this was not done you get frustrating answers.
I submit that sometimes when those who lead fail to open a forum for
discussion then we become bound to act independently.
I believe we will enter heaven as individuals, individuals who have been
transformed into a perfect body of Jesus - the church.
God bless you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Dlongolo [mailto:daniel@4gl.co.za]
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 4:55 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] 1888 Message
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
Jeremiah,
I thank you very much for the light you have given me concerning the 1888
message of Righteousness by faith. I thank the Lord for this forum, it is
a blessing indeed.
God bless.
Daniel
On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Masabatha Online wrote:
> Daniel,
> These young men (Waggoner & Jones) violated a great principle that
> had united the pioneers from the beginning of the movement, and
> that's the principle of the priesthood of believers. The Adventist
> church was founded by men and woman who came together to study and
> search the scriptures. If one finds a new light he/she brings it to
> the brethren for discussion. A typical example is that of the Sabbath
> truth, after Joseph Bates came across the Sabbath truth he brought it
> to the fellow believers for discussion.
> These young men (Waggoner & Jones) were very sharp in their debates
> and at times portraying the spirit of showing off. For this reason
> Ellen White rebuke them in 1887, she wrote that Waggoner lacked
> "humility and meekness", while Jones needed to cultivate "practical
> godliness" Manus 15 1888
> In early 1888 Ellen White also rebuked them for publishing their
> views in the 'Signs of the times', she wrote:
> "I have no hesitancy in saying you have made a mistake here. You have
> departed from the positive directions God has given upon this matter,
> and only harm will be the result. This is not in God's order. You
> have now set the example for others to do as you have done, to feel
> at liberty to put in their various ideas and theories and bring them
> before the public, because you have done this. This will bring in a
> state of things that you have not dreamed of. . . . It is no small
> matter for you to come out in the Signs as you have done, and God has
> plainly revealed that such things should not be done. We must keep
> before the world a united front. Satan will triumph to see
> differences among Seventh-day Adventists. These questions are not
> vital points. . . . "
> Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 75,76
> She again wrote: "I do not think that years will wipe out the
> impressions made at our last conference. I know how these things
> work. I am satisfied that we must have more of Jesus and less of
> self. If there is difference upon any parts of the understanding of
> some particular passage of Scripture, then do not be with pen or
> voice making your differences apparent and making a breach when there
> is no need of this."
> Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 79,
> This clearly shows that the old guards (Butler, Smith and co.) were
> not over reacting. The fact of the matter is that they were errors on
> both sides, even though the old guards not only had a wrong strategy
> they also had a wrong theology.
> What should be the reaction of the church's leadership when a pastor
> of the church decides to start preaching a new theology? He will be
> violating this principle of the priesthood of believers. What do you
> do when have found a new light? You bring it to the fellow believers
> for discussion and if it is from God, the Holy Spirit open the eyes
> of the brethren to see the light.
> This was the problem with the church in Germany during the First
> World War, when the German union decided to go against the stand of
> the church of non-combatancy. The results were the formation of the
> Reformed SDA church.
> This principle of the priesthood of believers prevented the split
> along Divisions lines on the policy of ordination of woman in the
> 1995 GC session.
>
> He will come!
>
> Jeremiah
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:33:10 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Fw: Researchers deplore dearth of marriage stats
Hi there
Seeing the latest discussion is on divorce I thought this may be of
interest.
Best wishes
Shirley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-smartmarriages@mclean1.his.com
<owner-smartmarriages@mclean1.his.com>
To: undisclosed-recipients:; <undisclosed-recipients:;>
Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 08:05
Subject: Researchers deplore dearth of marriage stats
>from: Smart Marriages
>
>
>Researchers deplore dearth of statistics about marriage
>
>By Cheryl Wetzstein THE WASHINGTON TIMES August 31, 1999
>
>Data on the vital statistics of marriage is drying up and no relief is in
>sight, says a growing group of researchers and social scientists. For
>instance:
>
>-Oklahoma policy-makers would like to lower their state's high divorce
>rate, but they can't tell if marrying young -- as many Oklahoma couples
>seem to do -- leads to divorce. There's no national data to guide the
>policy-makers.
>
>-Researchers would like to verify which state has the longest marriages,
>how old people are when they divorce, and how many children are affected
>by divorce each year. But there's no data.
>
>-Futurists like Sandy Burchsted of Houston are in an even bigger bind.
>Ms. Burchsted, who is preparing a book on marriage 100 years from now,
>believes that "serial monogamy" is slowly displacing traditional
>marriage, but proving even a megatrend like this will be difficult
>without data.
>
> Not only is current marriage data meager, but "there's very little
>written or even discussed about marriage in the future," she says.
>
>These researchers say the dearth of data on marriage and divorce is about
>to get worse. Next year, for the first time in more than 100 years, the
>U.S. Census will not ask every household about marital status.
>
>Instead, only 17 percent of households will be asked this vital question.
>
>This omission dismays researchers like Bonnie Braun, a family life
>specialist at the University of Maryland at College Park.
>
>"The census data has been the one consistent piece of data we could all
>use over time. Especially with trends, we had the same thing to compare
>to," says Mrs. Braun.
>
>"When I think about them leaving [data collection] up to states,
>individuals or universities, you are going to have so much variation that
>you're not going to be able to make the same kind of comparisons," she
>adds. "It really is of concern to us."
>
>Some observers in Congress are also concerned.
>
>"There's a growing understanding that nothing is more critical than
>marital status" when it comes to social pathologies, says Michael
>Schwartz, administrative director for Rep. Tom Coburn, Oklahoma
>Republican. "Now is not the time to eliminate that data."
>
>But Congress has played a pivotal role in creating the data dearth after
>signing off on the changes in the 2000 Census. Sen. Sam Brownback, Kansas
>Republican, is trying to remedy the situation by asking the Senate to
>create a committee to examine the American culture and its effects on
>family and society. A top priority of the proposed committee would be to
>"explore holes in data collection" on family structure and function,
>according to his office.
>
> Beyond this, however, there aren't any immediate efforts to change
>federal data-gathering techniques. "It's still in the discussion stage,"
>said one House aide.
>
>Observers outside Capitol Hill say Congress has ample authority to lead
>on this issue. It can commission studies, pass laws requiring collection
>of marital status and related data and set uniform data collection
>standards for states.
>
> It could also tell the National Center for Health Statistics to resume
>collecting detailed marriage and divorce statistics, which it stopped
>doing in 1996. Congress should give the NCHS the funds to do so, the
>observers hasten to add, noting that the center abandoned its marriage
>and divorce efforts because of budget constraints.
>
>Marriage researchers need to lobby for their needs, says Theodora Ooms, a
>marriage expert who has been struggling to find data to help state
>policy-makers answer their marriage and divorce questions.
>
>Traditionally, Mrs. Ooms says, although many public and private groups
>use marriage data, "there are no strong constituents who have a clear
>stake in these issues.
>
>"Thus, there has been virtually no inside or outside pressure to improve"
>the collection of marriage and divorce data, she says.
>
>In addition, state and national public health departments have not viewed
>marriage as a public health concern and made it a low priority in data
>collection, she says.
>
>"It is essential that the federal government reverse current policy and
>reinvest in helping states collect uniform, consistent and useful data on
>marriage and divorce," says Mrs. Ooms, who is urging Congress to
>commission a study of marriage and divorce statistics, how they relate to
>census data, and how they can be improved.
>
>Patrick Fagan, an analyst at the Heritage Foundation, suspects a "radical
>liberal agenda" is playing a role in the downgrading of marriage and
>divorce data collection.
>
>"Marriage is critical to the well-being of children, but elitists in
>academia and government hate to hear that," he says. They have therefore,
>he says, focused on other, less important factors affecting children,
>such as environment or family income.
>
>A prime example of this misunderstanding is a new report on children's
>well-being issued by 18 federal agencies, says Mr. Fagan.
>
>The report barely mentions family structure even though "divorce is the
>leading single thing that pushes kids into poverty," he says.
>
>Authors of the interagency study, "America's Children: Key National
>Indicators of Well-being," agree that "current data collection systems do
>not provide enough background information on children's lives, their
>families and their caregivers."
>
> More data on family structure is needed, as well as information on how
>and where children spend their time, the report's authors say.
>
>Researchers may be unhappy that the 2000 census will no longer ask every
>adult American about their marital status, but census experts note that
>this change couldn't have happened without Congress' approval.
>
> The Census Bureau showed Congress its lists of 2000 Census questions in
>April 1998, and Congress approved them, says TerriAnn Lowenthal, a
>consultant on the census.
>
>The marital-status question, which asks adults if they are "now married,
>widowed, separated, divorced or never married," was dropped from the 2000
>Census short form, which will go an estimated 120 million households. The
>official reason is there was no law mandating it. Questions on race and
>ethnicity were retained.
>
>This is the first time since 1880 the marriage question won't be asked of
>every household, said one congressional aide.
>
>The question, however, is maintained on the long form, which goes to 17
>percent of households, or around 20 million households.
>
>Earlier this year, several members of Congress considered introducing
>legislation to return the martial-status question to the short form,
>aides said.
>
>But making changes now in the 2000 census is "almost inconceivable,
>operationally," says Ms. Lowenthal. Some 200 million census forms,
>including those in foreign languages, are now being addressed. Reprinting
>the forms would likely cost more than $100 million and even delay the
>census, which is required by law to occur April 1, experts say.
>
>
>
>
>
>"Around the Coalition" is a FREE online newsletter which shares
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>approaches. Opinions expressed are not necessarily shared by members of
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>
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>
>Visit the website Articles and Informatin page at
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>
>The 3rd Annual Smart Marriages/Happy Families conference was held
>July 1-4, 1999 in Washington, DC.
>
>To order tapes of all presentations at the 1999 conference, as well as
>the 1997 & 1998 Smart Marriages conferences: call 800-241-7785,
>email tapes@the-resource-link.com or on the web at:
>http://www.the-resource-link.com/rl2.1/cmfce
>Audio tapes are $10, video tapes are $24.95.
>
>To list your program in the Directory of Providers visit the
>Website: http://www.smartmarriages.com/directory_browse.html
>
>Coalition for Marriage, Family and Couples Education, LLC (CMFCE)
>Diane Sollee, Director
>5310 Belt Rd. NW, Washington, DC 20015-1961
>www.smartmarriages.com
>202-362-3332 (FAX 202-362-0973) Email: cmfce@smartmarriages.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:06:16 +0200
From: "Shirley Allen" <chmin@hbc.ac.za>
Subject: Fw: ANN Bulletin: Aug 31, 1999
-----Original Message-----
From: adventistnews@lists.gc.adventist.org
<adventistnews@lists.gc.adventist.org>
>ANN Bulletin
>Adventist News Network
>Seventh-day Adventist Church World Headquarters
>August 31, 1999
>
>In This Issue:
>*Baptism of 1,787 Crowns Family Life Seminars' Evangelism in Nairobi
>*Adventist World Church President Speaks Out At Festival of Laity
>
>
>Baptism of 1,787 Crowns Family Life Seminars' Evangelism in Nairobi
>Nairobi, Kenya ... [ANN]
>
>Seventh-day Adventists in Nairobi, Kenya, are celebrating. A total of
>1,787 people were baptized and over 2,000 couples renewed their wedding
>vows last Saturday, August 28, at the conclusion of the Family Life
>Crusade in Nairobi, Kenya.
>
>The baptism brought to a conclusion the second stage of outreach
>activities in 40 centers in the capital of Kenya. It took place at the
>Moi International Sports Ground and was the crowning celebration of the
>Family Life Seminar evangelistic outreach held by Pastor Jose Campos
>and Mrs. Adly Campos.
>
>The Nairobi outreach was sponsored by the Adventist Church's publishing
>department, which this year is celebrating 150 years of Adventist
>publishing ministry. Jose Campos is associate publishing director at
>the Seventh-day Adventist Church World Headquarters in Silver Spring,
>Maryland. A native of Mexico, Mrs. Adly Campos is a well known
>Adventist evangelist. Her Nairobi outreach was sponsored by the
>Ministerial Association of the Church. Since her arrival in Nairobi on
>July 31, Mrs. Campos preached to packed audiences every night.
>
>"We presented the gospel message in the context of family life," she
>said. "The Bible truth can only enrich our home life. We saw families,
>spouses and children dedicating themselves to quality of life.
>Hundreds, even thousands pledged to lead better lives in Kenya."
>
>Speaking from her home after arrival from Kenya, Mrs. Campos paid
>tribute to several Kenyan pastors and evangelists whose leadership and
>preaching were prominent in the evangelistic events throughout the
>city.
>
>"We only praise God for what was accomplished in Nairobi. And there is
>more to come," she added.
>
>According to Samuel Misiani, director of Adventist World Radio-Africa,
>after Mrs. Campos preached "some 680 new people responded and indicated
>that they too would wish to be baptized." The local evangelistic team
>is planning a series of baptisms in September and October.
>
>The Nairobi evangelism also brought together lay evangelists from local
>congregations to observe and participate in the training events. The
>Family Life Seminars dealt with such topics as the role of women in
>society, quality of marriage, family violence, child abuse, discipline
>and what constitutes being a role model.
>
>According to Jose Campos, the outreach involved literature evangelists
>who distributed thousands of copies of Adventist publications
>throughout Nairobi. Commenting on the Nairobi outreach, Ron
>Appenzeller, publishing director at the World Church Headquarters, said
>that "this was a clear evidence that successful evangelism means
>partnership. It's the persuasion of the spoken word, and the convincing
>presentation of the written word supplies lasting results. We praise
>the Lord for His leading in Nairobi."
>
>Misiani reported that the stadium event and the baptism ceremony was
>given nation-wide coverage by three different TV stations. The
>evangelistic team was also received by the President of Kenya, Daniel
>T. Arap Moi. The President was invited to participate in what is termed
>as the "grand finale" of the public evangelistic series planned for
>November 27.
>[Ray Dabrowski with Samuel Misiani in Nairobi]
>
>
>
>Adventist World Church President Speaks Out At Festival of Laity
>Guatemala City, Guatemala .... [ANN]
>
>During his visit to the Festival of the Laity in Guatemala, Adventist
>World Church president Jan Paulsen spoke out on the importance of
>involving each member.
>
>"The lay members are the strength of the Church-we depend on them to
>move forward," said Paulsen during the conference organized by the
>Seventh-day Adventist Church's Inter-American Division.
>
>"I believe it is very significant that a group of laity is meeting to
>constructively progress and develop," he said. "It is a moment of
>consolidation, thought and re-energizing, as believers dedicated to
>Christian witness come and share their experience and 'refuel.' After
>this they will return to their communities strengthened, expressing the
>dynamics of living faith as they go home to share. It's healthy for the
>Church that the laity take hold of the Church, saying, 'It belongs to
>us.'"
>
>The 7,500-strong Festival, held August 25-28, featured a wide range of
>lay-led initiatives in the countries of Mexico and Central America,
>including new outreach activities, prison ministries, and junior
>preachers, all combined with colorful cultural music and dress.
>
>"These Festivals have a dual purpose," said Israel Leito, president of
>the Inter-American Division of Seventh-day Adventists. "They encourage
>those who are working hard-for those who are here are the top lay
>leaders from the various countries represented. The Festivals also
>strengthen the local churches, since those here are able to meet
>together, share ideas, and go home inspired to continue to contribute
>to the exponential growth of our Church."
>
>"I have been really inspired by this series of Festivals that have
>included Venezuela, Barbados, Haiti and now Guatemala," commented
>Leslie V. McMillan, communication director for the Inter-American
>Division. "Their purpose has been served: more lay members have been
>inspired by what others have done. Based on the new challenges we've
>seen here, we all will be planning for the next Festivals in five years
>time."
>
>Participants at this, the last Festival of the Laity for this
>millennium, came from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Belize, Honduras, El
>Salvador, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Panama, and Cuba, as well as the host
>country of Guatemala. The Cuban delegation received a standing ovation
>for their continued faith over the past difficult years.
>
>In his concluding remarks, Paulsen thanked God for all that has
>happened in the Inter-American Division. "But God is able to do much
>more," he added, "and the Spirit has grandiose plans. Let us work with
>Him." [Jonathan Gallagher]
>
>-end-
>----------------------
>
>
>12501 Old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, Maryland, USA 20904-6600.
>(301) 680-6306.
>CompuServe address: 74532,2611. News Bulletin is a review of news and
>information issued by the Communication Department from the Seventh-day
>Adventist Church World Headquarters and released as part of the service
>of Adventist News Network. It is being made available primarily to
>religious news
>editors. Our news includes dispatches from the Church's international
>offices and the world headquarters. The information provided in the
>Bulletin may be reproduced without permission providing that the source
>"Adventist News Network" is acknowledged.
>ANN Staff: Ray Dabrowski, director; Jonathan Gallagher, news director;
>Heather Brannan, editorial assistant. Copyright Adventist News Network
>1999.
>-----
>This list is operated by the Communications Department of the General
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:48:05 PDT
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
Thank you for the listing.
Bye
Mbedzi.
>From: sa-sda-owner@onelist.com
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: mbedzi@hotmail.com
>Subject: [sa-sda] Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
>Date: 24 Aug 1999 13:39:22 -0000
>
>Hello,
>
>
>Welcome to the SA-SDA discussion mailing list.
> As a new subscriber we encourage you to send an email to
>sa-sda@onelist.com and introduce yourself to the rest of the list members.
> Here are a couple of reasons why we started the mailing list:
>
>About a year ago a group of South African SDA's started a web site
>(www.masabatha.org) with the purpose of sharing their spiritual
>experiences.
>We see the mailing list as an extension of this ministry.
>Our objective is to facilitate discussion among SDA church members in
>Southern Africa.
>The discussions on this list need not be strictly on Christian issues, they
>can be on social, political, economic or personal issues,
> since all of these issues do affect us in our Christian journey.
>
>We hope to hear from you soon.
>
>The King is even at the door!
>
>To unsubscribe from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at
>www.onelist.com, and select the User Center link from the menu bar
>on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription
>between digest and normal mode.
>You can also unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to
>sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
>Thanks,
>The List Manager
>Mashudu Jeremiah Ravhegani
>
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:53:05 PDT
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
Nnadaa.
Vho vuwa hani vhana? ndo livhuwa in jenisiwa kha manwa masavhatha.
Greet everyone home.
Pastor Mbedzi.
>From: sa-sda-owner@onelist.com
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: mbedzi@hotmail.com
>Subject: [sa-sda] Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
>Date: 24 Aug 1999 13:39:22 -0000
>
>Hello,
>
>
>Welcome to the SA-SDA discussion mailing list.
> As a new subscriber we encourage you to send an email to
>sa-sda@onelist.com and introduce yourself to the rest of the list members.
> Here are a couple of reasons why we started the mailing list:
>
>About a year ago a group of South African SDA's started a web site
>(www.masabatha.org) with the purpose of sharing their spiritual
>experiences.
>We see the mailing list as an extension of this ministry.
>Our objective is to facilitate discussion among SDA church members in
>Southern Africa.
>The discussions on this list need not be strictly on Christian issues, they
>can be on social, political, economic or personal issues,
> since all of these issues do affect us in our Christian journey.
>
>We hope to hear from you soon.
>
>The King is even at the door!
>
>To unsubscribe from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at
>www.onelist.com, and select the User Center link from the menu bar
>on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription
>between digest and normal mode.
>You can also unsubscribe by sending a blank mail to
>sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
>Thanks,
>The List Manager
>Mashudu Jeremiah Ravhegani
>
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:11:05 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Welcome to sa-sda@onelist.com
Paul,
Let me take this opportunity to welcome you to the list.
My good pastor, It seems like you didn't realize that you sent this private message to the list.
To the rest of you out there:
There is nothing really private about this message; this might be a test to see if you have a gift of reading in tongues.
The King is even at the door!
Jeremiah
>>> "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@hotmail.com> 09/02 4:53 PM >>>
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
Nnadaa.
Vho vuwa hani vhana? ndo livhuwa in jenisiwa kha manwa masavhatha.
Greet everyone home.
Pastor Mbedzi.
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:10:59 PDT
From: "Pandelani Mbedzi" <mbedzi@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Welcome
Dear Andrew.
God has given us the power of Comunication and we can use it to bless or to
distroy.
God loved all of us and gave his son to save us from sin. God gave man the
church to bring for worship all classes of poeple under one roof at the same
time. That is powerfull. All classes the rich and the poor, the slave or the
Master to worship the same God.
Bye for now
Pastor mbedzi.
>From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
>Reply-To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>To: <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] Welcome
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:03:43 +0200
>
>From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
>
>Pastor,
>
>Is the problem not that, in terms of reaching the middle class and the
>rich, we form or have more "professional" rather than christian
>relations with them? That is, the people that SDA professionals/middle
>class mingle with do not even know that we are christians, not to
>mention that we are Adventists!!!! Do SDA professionals know how to
>establish christian friendships in the work, social and academic
>environments, if we do do we do that?
>
>Andrew Modise
>
>
>
> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/13/99 10:39AM >>>
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> I find your illustration very interesting and not amusing for it is
>true.
>Crusades are for people who are hungry and unemployed. Our church
>seems to
>specialise in reaching or targeting those who stay in shacks or
>temporal
>shelters. What about the rich and affluent how do we reach them?
>
>Should we run an anti-rich programme for them or how to be unemployed?
>Remember the Young rich ruler who approached Christ? He was told to
>get rid
>of his possession and follow Christ. Difficult, yes even more
>difficult
>than to reach poor people.
>
>What is the solution? The problem is that crusades are done by
>specialists, and yet I read from the Bible that everyone is supposed to
>be a
>witness. Let all our members be trained and encouraged to
>evangelise.
>Let us find new ways of sharing our faith. We should find it easy to
>talk
>about what Christ is doing in our lives before we can tell people what
>he
>wants from their lives.
>"When they see your good deeds they will glorify Him".
>
>Maybe we do not need more crusades, we need more Crusaders!
>
>Peace!
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Andrew Modise <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 9:05 AM
>Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] Welcome
>
>
> >From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
> >
> >Sam,
> >
> >The solution to the riddle is to find out why people don't attend the
> >crusades. The problem is that our ministry is often times not needs
> >based. For example, out tendency is to identify "unentered areas" and
> >put up a tent for a crusade. This is most of the time not based on a
> >proper needs analysis, in your field it would be a due dilligence
> >report. Some of the people you invite to the crusade would like to
> >attend the but have more pressing needs like putting food on the
>table
> >for their children. I can imagine that some of them are perhaps
> >wondering why we are not following the example of Jesus. Christ
> >addressed the basic needs of people first. Perhaps we need to think
>of
> >anti-poverty, anti-crime, counselling, skills development and job
> >creation programmes before we talk of crusades. Our needs are not
> >necessarily other people's needs. The art of fishing depends
>critically
> >on understanding the environment, behaviour and the type of fish you
>are
> >trying to catch, that will inform you as to what kind of bait to use
>and
> >when to throw the fishing rod into the water. We need to see human
> >beings (God's children) first before we can see targets for baptism
> >(statistics)!!