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There are 3 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
2. Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
3. Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 13:17:39 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Nick
I am of the opinion that we should not make divorce easy or even difficult
but impossible. The only way to do it is to make sure that God resides in
both hearts, the husband and the wife. If one of them divorces God, there
is little we can do.
In this instance the person who is still in a relationship with God, because
he loves the partner, she/he can accept the rejection, as Paul says, "what
can separate us from the love of God, not even divorce, the divorce we
cannot survive is the one involving God.
Do not worry I am against divorce, by the way I am still happily married.
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Bangisi, Nikelo <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:36 AM
Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
>Jongimpi,
>
>How do you go around the vow that says "Till death do us part"? This does
>not say "Till divorce do us part"? Could it be that this vow might also
>imply the death of love on one of the parties? I am worried by the fact
that
>if one could wake up one morning not loving anymore, if such a thing is
>there, then divorce will even be made easier and authorised under any
>circumstances. I am becoming confused.
>
>We cannot just divorce.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:19 AM
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
>Mashudu
>I agree with you man of God, I am on your side. My fear is that we can
>over burden love. I do not subscribe to the notion that love can change
>everything. God loves us, he sent his only son to die for us, but not all
>of us will be saved, love has not failed we have failed to respond.
>
>Currently, I have a serious case of a woman who, in her own way, has done
>everything to show love to her husband, and the last thing she was told
>after a series of abuse, was that Let us divorce. Her question, is, where
>have I failed? I loved my husband, why did that not work? She thinks
that
>maybe she did not love him strongly.
>
>With this kind of experience, I think it is only proper for us to look at
>the other side of love, and that is, Love is strong. God will have to
>accept one day that there are people who do not want His love, love can be
>rejected, but cannot be destroyed.
>
>Let us love them not because we want them to change, but because we have
>been changed by the love of God. Love can never fail, but those we love
>can fail us.
>
>Love at home
>
>Jongimpi
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 6:25 PM
>Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
>>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>
>>
>>I don't know about obsession, but the marriage vow still says '"TILL DEATH
>DO US APART"
>>As much as God CAN change the tasteless water into a sweet wine, He CAN
>sweeten a tasteless marriage. As much as He CAN create something out of
>nothing, He CAN create love where there is no love.
>>As long as there is life there is hope.
>>
>>Hold on! Wait upon the Lord, for He is able!
>>
>>Never give up!
>>
>>Jeremiah
>>
>>>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/31 11:07 AM >>>
>>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>>
>>Mashudu and Nick
>>Real love can also accept rejection, but obsession cannot.
>>
>>Love at home
>>Jongimpi
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>>Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:04 PM
>>Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>>
>>
>>>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>>
>>>Nick wrote:
>>>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>>>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>>>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is
>"I
>>>>don't know, I still have to find out".
>>>
>>>To make the question even broader, what do you do when your husband/wife
>>does not love you any more?
>>>How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her love?
>>>Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other person needs
>>to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is not about
>>doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only your
part,
>>but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might not
see
>>your 50% as you see it.
>>>
>>>If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you too'. I
>>think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For love
begets
>>love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real love can
>>break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is
>>irresistible. Real love comes from God.
>>>
>>>That's my try!
>>>
>>>With God, all things are possible!
>>>
>>>Jeremiah
>>>
>>>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM >>>
>>>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>>>
>>>My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce contributes
>>to
>>>the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral standards
>>>have declined in the society, in general, law makers have conveniently
>>>opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the land.
>>For
>>>example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE still
>>>exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted. The
>>enquiry
>>>that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of the
>>>continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may themselves
>>be
>>>divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties themselves.
>>>
>>>There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown of
>>>marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that require a
>>>divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship has
>>>irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12 months
>>>separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove this
>point.
>>>Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
>>>
>>>From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's office I
>>found
>>>surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by the
>male
>>>folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me think
>>>also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many "wives"
>>>whereas one is married to his own wife.
>>>
>>>from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been largely
>>affected
>>>by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting in the
>>>church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault his own
>>>wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious to her
>>>without having been converted to the world.
>>>
>>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is
"I
>>>don't know, I still have to find out".
>>>
>>>God bless you all.
>>>
>>>Nick
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
>>>Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
>>>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>>>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
>>>
>>>
>>>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>Dear friends,
>>>
>>>It has been very quite out there.
>>>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
>>>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
>>>
>>>He will come!
>>>
>>>Jeremiah
>>>__________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 18:24:17 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Jongimpi,
Thank you for your response, I always appreciate the depth and the analysis that you bring to the discussion. Your ability to see issues in more than one dimensions always marvels me; it encourages me to continue to debate with you for I continue to learn. Having said that, I would like to say that I think I understand the point you are trying to make, however, since your message could be interpreted in way that could be misleading to others, I strongly disagree with your position.
You wrote:
>The only way to do it is to make sure that God resides in
>both hearts, the husband and the wife. If one of them divorces God, there
>is little we can do.
You say "there is little we can do", but your position suggests that there is much we can do, for I do not consider divorce as something that should be considered "little"
What does Paul say to Christians who are married to those whom God does not reside in their hearts?
1Cor 7:10 *16, NIV
"To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.
And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.
For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?"
In our early discussions it was suggested that they way to reach unbelievers who are inside and outside the church is to befriend them. I wonder if the same approach can't be used to reach out to an unbelieving spouse.
Let me make this very clear I am not advocating that a woman/man should remain in the house as the partner loads her/his gun, that will be suicide. In my previous mail I suggested a 'cooling off period' as way to resolve some problems (especially domestic violence), but not divorce!
My problem is that if God said it I believe it. He says let no man put asunder! He still says I hate divorce! As Nick correctly pointed out, the vow does not say until you husband becomes an unbeliever. But it does say that in sickness and in health. Does this include spiritual sickness?
There are times when God tells me that the right way is that one that goes through the fire, however, I realize that there is a better and broader way, in fact a FREE way. I so much desire to walk on the FREE way, but I have learnt, just like the 3 Hebrew boys, that the best way is the one that the Lords leads.
I know He is able save marriages, but even if he does not, I will not bow down!
Our country is plagued with crime and violence, and many of the researches point out that the high percentage of these criminals come from broken homes. Another research points out that at least 50% of the marriages of those who come from broken homes are likely to end up the same.
Divorce is one of the powerful weapons on the devil's hands, most us are blinded from seeing who really is behind the divorce plague. He has destroyed millions of lives through this weapon.
As Christians we need to fight the enemy and his schemes.
I am very grateful to my parents, who even though it was hard they remained together. I would like to believe that at times they did have good enough reasons to divorce but they decided not to. It could have been easy for them to think about their immediate joy and fulfillment, but they didn't and I am so grateful for that. When I meet challenges along the way I can say if God saw them through He can also do it for me. To me, marriage is a one way ticket. I would like Gundo (my daughter) to have the same attitude towards marriage.
A story is told of a Christian woman whose husband, an unbeliever, used to take pleasure in abusing her. Day after day the abuse continued. One day he came back drunk at about 12:00AM with a group of his friends. He pooled the poor wife from the bed and told her to cook for him and his friends. Without a mummer she went ahead and prepared the food. They ate, and after eating the friends left. The husband just couldn't understand why his wife behaves the way she does, and he decided to ask her. Her respond went like this: "I am a Christian and soon my Lord will come to take to heaven, but I realize that you are not a Christian, so I have decided to make enjoy you little heaven down here." The husband just could not handle this one, he broke down and cried, and that was the last day of the abuse.
Is divorce a solution to problems in life that are associated with marriage? NO! Unless pouring petrol (gasoline) on the fire helps to put it out.
Heaven helps us all!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 09/01 7:17 AM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Nick
I am of the opinion that we should not make divorce easy or even difficult
but impossible. The only way to do it is to make sure that God resides in
both hearts, the husband and the wife. If one of them divorces God, there
is little we can do.
In this instance the person who is still in a relationship with God, because
he loves the partner, she/he can accept the rejection, as Paul says, "what
can separate us from the love of God, not even divorce, the divorce we
cannot survive is the one involving God.
Do not worry I am against divorce, by the way I am still happily married.
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Bangisi, Nikelo <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:36 AM
Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
>Jongimpi,
>
>How do you go around the vow that says "Till death do us part"? This does
>not say "Till divorce do us part"? Could it be that this vow might also
>imply the death of love on one of the parties? I am worried by the fact
that
>if one could wake up one morning not loving anymore, if such a thing is
>there, then divorce will even be made easier and authorised under any
>circumstances. I am becoming confused.
>
>We cannot just divorce.
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 09:44:46 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Mashudu
First of all let me say you are surprising!!! I enjoyed your analysis of
what happened in 1888, and I wish we could dwell on it for some time. The
reason being that there are so many Adventists who are either ignorant or
confused about the event. Keep it up Jerry, your interest in spiritual
things and your commitment to your church is something to be emulated.
Back to our undying topic on divorce. Let me just make two brief remarks
and also say that I do appreciate your input and I do not disagree with you
a bit, I am with you all the way, man of God.
The last paragraph from the text you quoted, has these words,"But if the
unbeliever leaves, let him do so..." That is where I made the comment that
there is little you can do. You may still love him, but if the unbeliever,
in this case, this could also be and Adventists who is an unbeliever, who is
divorced from Christ, if he leaves, let him do so, you are no longer bound
to him. You may still love him, to let him go, is one sign that you love
him. That is where also I said that love can, not must, but can accept
rejection, this would apply in this case.
The second point I must make, that is where Nick, I think raised the
concern. This applies to the "exceptional clause" that is recorded in
Matt. 19:9, "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for
marital unfaithfulness..." This suggests to me that divorce can be allowed
in the case as shown above. This also does not mean that one must divorce
his partner using this exceptional clause, but I think it is more on the
"can" not on the "must".
In short, if an unbeliever wants to leave, let him. One may marry a
partner who is a believer but after some time, for various reasons, divorces
Christ, unless we believe in once saved always saved. In such a case if the
unbeliever decides to leave, let him. Love can accept rejection, you can
still continue to love him, but you cannot force him not to divorce you, nor
are you guilty if he does. But if he does not leave you, as you correctly
pointed out, it is your duty to win him back to Christ first, and not to
you, for that is where the problem is. But there is a lot involved in this
than the stories we read from magazines. I believe that a person may
preach so well and sing so melodiously, if he beats and abuses his family,
he is an unbeliever, not to be divorced but to be won back to Christ - but
if he decides to leave, let him. But you can continue loving him, even
though you may not be his partner. If you can love your enemies and even
die for them, you can at least continue loving the partner you were once
married to, by speaking well about him in front of your kids and praying for
him in the presence of your kids. This in many cases can also help in the
trauma that kids suffer after divorce. Remember some kids suffer
tremendously, not only from divorce, but also from witnessing abuse after
abuse in their homes. at times it may even be difficult to win them back
to Christ, especially when the partner professed to be a believer, but
continue to live like an unbeliever.
The last point I made about the exceptional clause, is what the SDA believes
currently, I might be wrong, but that is how I read the manual.
I hope the above will not be looked upon as a defence for my faith. For I
do not think that there is anyone attacking my faith.
I am just a student, who can be confused at times, but I love JESUS, and I
love my wife and kids. Sometimes such discussions help clarify the issues
and remove the mist of confusion, so I appreciate your contribution, you
have forced me to think. I might still be wrong, you may still disagree,
but thanks God for the opportunity to air our views.
Love at home.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>
>Jongimpi,
>
>Thank you for your response, I always appreciate the depth and the analysis
that you bring to the discussion. Your ability to see issues in more than
one dimensions always marvels me; it encourages me to continue to debate
with you for I continue to learn. Having said that, I would like to say that
I think I understand the point you are trying to make, however, since your
message could be interpreted in way that could be misleading to others, I
strongly disagree with your position.
>
>You wrote:
>>The only way to do it is to make sure that God resides in
>>both hearts, the husband and the wife. If one of them divorces God,
there
>>is little we can do.
>
>You say "there is little we can do", but your position suggests that there
is much we can do, for I do not consider divorce as something that should be
considered "little"
>What does Paul say to Christians who are married to those whom God does not
reside in their hearts?
>1Cor 7:10 *16, NIV
>"To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not
separate from her husband.
>But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her
husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
>To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is
not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.
>And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to
live with her, she must not divorce him.
>For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the
unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband.
Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
>But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is
not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do
you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know,
husband, whether you will save your wife?"
>
>In our early discussions it was suggested that they way to reach
unbelievers who are inside and outside the church is to befriend them. I
wonder if the same approach can't be used to reach out to an unbelieving
spouse.
>
>Let me make this very clear I am not advocating that a woman/man should
remain in the house as the partner loads her/his gun, that will be suicide.
In my previous mail I suggested a 'cooling off period' as way to resolve
some problems (especially domestic violence), but not divorce!
>
>My problem is that if God said it I believe it. He says let no man put
asunder! He still says I hate divorce! As Nick correctly pointed out, the
vow does not say until you husband becomes an unbeliever. But it does say
that in sickness and in health. Does this include spiritual sickness?
>There are times when God tells me that the right way is that one that goes
through the fire, however, I realize that there is a better and broader way,
in fact a FREE way. I so much desire to walk on the FREE way, but I have
learnt, just like the 3 Hebrew boys, that the best way is the one that the
Lords leads.
>I know He is able save marriages, but even if he does not, I will not bow
down!
>
>Our country is plagued with crime and violence, and many of the researches
point out that the high percentage of these criminals come from broken
homes. Another research points out that at least 50% of the marriages of
those who come from broken homes are likely to end up the same.
>Divorce is one of the powerful weapons on the devil's hands, most us are
blinded from seeing who really is behind the divorce plague. He has
destroyed millions of lives through this weapon.
>As Christians we need to fight the enemy and his schemes.
>I am very grateful to my parents, who even though it was hard they remained
together. I would like to believe that at times they did have good enough
reasons to divorce but they decided not to. It could have been easy for them
to think about their immediate joy and fulfillment, but they didn't and I am
so grateful for that. When I meet challenges along the way I can say if God
saw them through He can also do it for me. To me, marriage is a one way
ticket. I would like Gundo (my daughter) to have the same attitude towards
marriage.
>
>A story is told of a Christian woman whose husband, an unbeliever, used to
take pleasure in abusing her. Day after day the abuse continued. One day he
came back drunk at about 12:00AM with a group of his friends. He pooled the
poor wife from the bed and told her to cook for him and his friends. Without
a mummer she went ahead and prepared the food. They ate, and after eating
the friends left. The husband just couldn't understand why his wife behaves
the way she does, and he decided to ask her. Her respond went like this: "I
am a Christian and soon my Lord will come to take to heaven, but I realize
that you are not a Christian, so I have decided to make enjoy you little
heaven down here." The husband just could not handle this one, he broke down
and cried, and that was the last day of the abuse.
>
>Is divorce a solution to problems in life that are associated with
marriage? NO! Unless pouring petrol (gasoline) on the fire helps to put it
out.
>
>Heaven helps us all!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 09/01 7:17 AM >>>
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
>Nick
>
>I am of the opinion that we should not make divorce easy or even difficult
>but impossible. The only way to do it is to make sure that God resides in
>both hearts, the husband and the wife. If one of them divorces God,
there
>is little we can do.
>
>In this instance the person who is still in a relationship with God,
because
>he loves the partner, she/he can accept the rejection, as Paul says, "what
>can separate us from the love of God, not even divorce, the divorce we
>cannot survive is the one involving God.
>
>Do not worry I am against divorce, by the way I am still happily married.
>
>Love at home
>
>Jongimpi
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bangisi, Nikelo <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:36 AM
>Subject: RE: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
>>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>>
>>Jongimpi,
>>
>>How do you go around the vow that says "Till death do us part"? This does
>>not say "Till divorce do us part"? Could it be that this vow might also
>>imply the death of love on one of the parties? I am worried by the fact
>that
>>if one could wake up one morning not loving anymore, if such a thing is
>>there, then divorce will even be made easier and authorised under any
>>circumstances. I am becoming confused.
>>
>>We cannot just divorce.
>>
>>
>>
>
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