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There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
2. Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
3. Re: 1888 Message
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
4. Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
5. Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
6. Re: 1888 Message
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
7. Baptism.
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@xxx.xx.xxx
8. Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
9. RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:19:57 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce contributes to
the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral standards
have declined in the society, in general, law makers have conveniently
opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the land. For
example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE still
exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted. The enquiry
that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of the
continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may themselves be
divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties themselves.
There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown of
marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that require a
divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship has
irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12 months
separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove this point.
Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's office I found
surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by the male
folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me think
also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many "wives"
whereas one is married to his own wife.
from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been largely affected
by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting in the
church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault his own
wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious to her
without having been converted to the world.
Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is "I
don't know, I still have to find out".
God bless you all.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Dear friends,
It has been very quite out there.
Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
Is divorce and option for a Christian?
He will come!
Jeremiah
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
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====
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To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:03:52 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Nick wrote:
>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is "I
>don't know, I still have to find out".
To make the question even broader, what do you do when your husband/wife does not love you any more?
How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her love?
Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other person needs to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is not about doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only your part, but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might not see your 50% as you see it.
If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you too'. I think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For love begets love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real love can break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is irresistible. Real love comes from God.
That's my try!
With God, all things are possible!
Jeremiah
>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM >>>
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce contributes to
the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral standards
have declined in the society, in general, law makers have conveniently
opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the land. For
example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE still
exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted. The enquiry
that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of the
continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may themselves be
divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties themselves.
There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown of
marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that require a
divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship has
irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12 months
separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove this point.
Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's office I found
surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by the male
folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me think
also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many "wives"
whereas one is married to his own wife.
from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been largely affected
by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting in the
church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault his own
wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious to her
without having been converted to the world.
Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is "I
don't know, I still have to find out".
God bless you all.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
Dear friends,
It has been very quite out there.
Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
Is divorce and option for a Christian?
He will come!
Jeremiah
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
<a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
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The King is even at the door!
====
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To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:19:37 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: 1888 Message
Jeremiah,
Thank you for your explanation of what happened in the Minneapolis
Conference. I read your explanation with great interest, I wish you
continued to tell us what led to Jones' losing his membership in
the Adventist church.
You wrote:
> Here is where the problem started: As soon as this young men found
> this message they started printing it on the Signs of times magazine
> without first discussing this new teaching with the church
> leadership. Moreover, they took this new found truth to the college
> students at Healdsberg. The old guard was very upset with all of
> this.
I personally don't see the reason for the president's anger in this case.
Of course I do not know the manner in which Jones preached this "new
light". Let me tell you why. Suppose you discover something very precious
as the truth the two men discovered. Would you wait until it is approved
by the GC? Mrs White herself never, as far as I know, went to the leaders
of the church to "ask permission" to preach/teach whatever was revealed to
her. After discovering that Christ is our righteousness; we are treated as
if we had never sinned when we sincerely come to Him, we would probably
do exactly what the two men did. The point is: It's hard to be silent
once you receive such "a precious message".
As I said before there might be genuine reasons why the president was
furious. We were unfortunately not there when that happened.
I understand that Jones taught that good works amount to nothing.
Sister White had to write strong messages of warning. One such is found in
Selected Messages pages 377,388
"I know your meaning, but you leave a wrong impression upon many minds.
While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for
even one soul to be saved without good works."
"Works will not buy for us an entrance into heaven." page 388
The second sentence from the first quotation is more interesting, to me at
least. "While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible
for even one soul to be saved without good works."
I need your analysis skills here. What is the difference between the two
statements:
1. Good works amount to nothing.
2. Good works will not save even one soul, nor buy him an entrance into
heaven.
Can you shed some light on why Elder Jones left the church? Was it because
of his belief that not all of EGW's visions were from God? I believe
Waggoner was disfellowshiped for divorcing and remarring.
The Lord will come again, just wait and murmur not.
Daniel
On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Masabatha Online wrote:
> From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
>
> The 1888 message is the message of righteousness by faith as opposed
> to salvation by obedience of the law, or Christ's righteousness as
> opposed to our righteousness. There are a lot of books and papers
> that has been written on this subject. Some have heralded this
> message and the 1888 General Conference session as a great turning
> point in Adventism.
>
> Let me try to give some background to the 1888 GC session, also know
> as the Minneapolis conference. Lets look at some of the characters
> that were involved in this conflict:
> On hand you had two young men; A T Jones and E J Waggoner who was the
> editor of the church publication 'Signs of Times'. On the other hand
> you had the church's old guard GI Butler (then GC president) and
> Uriah Smith, who was the editor of the Review and Herald.
> The conflict was over the law in the book of Galatians. Is the law
> spoken of as the schoolmaster the ceremonial law (tradition stand of
> the church, it was done away with at the cross) or the moral law (the
> 1888 message, this means salvation is only though faith),
> Waggoner and Jones can be looked upon as pioneers of the teaching of
> "Righteousness by faith" in the history of the SDA church, even
> though Ellen White who also accepted the message writes that it is
> the message she has been preaching many years before 1888. In fact
> Waggoner states that he received a vision about this message while
> listening to E.G White in 1882.
>
> Here is where the problem started: As soon as this young men found
> this message they started printing it on the Signs of times magazine
> without first discussing this new teaching with the church
> leadership. Moreover, they took this new found truth to the college
> students at Healdsberg. The old guard was very upset with all of
> this. Butler himself wrote an 85 page rebuttal to Waggoner message
> entitled 'The Law in the book of Galatians'. Waggoner in turn
> responded with his booklet 'The gospel in the book of Galatians". And
> the conflict continued. Both sides refused to listen to the counsel
> of E.G White, she rebuked both sides.
>
> At the meantime the old Guard planned that the 1888 GC will be a
> place to silence the young men, hoping to use their majority in the
> nine-member committee to crush them. Butler could not attend the GC
> because of sickness. The majority of the delegates came with strong
> prejudices against Jones and Waggoner, who were looked at as
> challenging the leadership. Butler was represented by J H Morrison,
> who was given a strong message by Butler to stand by the land marks.
> The speeches delivered by Waggoner and Jones were not recorded as
> nobody thought they would be important. As expected, there was a lot
> of opposition to their message. The delegates were divided. EG White
> tried to bring the two/three side together without much success. Many
> who attended the session came back very discouraged, saying it is the
> worst GC session they ever attended, EG White included, however she
> said that the message that Jones & Waggoner presented is "the most
> precious message which God gave through His servants" Manus 5 1888
> At 1888 GC session Stats
> World membership: about 2700
> Delegates: about 90
>
> Daniel, I hope this gives you some idea of what happened in 1888 GC,
> I could continue but I will leave the space for others to add.
>
> The King is even at the door!
>
> Jeremiah
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:07:13 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Mashudu and Nick
Real love can also accept rejection, but obsession cannot.
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Nick wrote:
>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is "I
>>don't know, I still have to find out".
>
>To make the question even broader, what do you do when your husband/wife
does not love you any more?
>How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her love?
>Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other person needs
to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is not about
doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only your part,
but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might not see
your 50% as you see it.
>
>If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you too'. I
think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For love begets
love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real love can
break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is
irresistible. Real love comes from God.
>
>That's my try!
>
>With God, all things are possible!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM >>>
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
>My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce contributes
to
>the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral standards
>have declined in the society, in general, law makers have conveniently
>opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the land.
For
>example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE still
>exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted. The
enquiry
>that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of the
>continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may themselves
be
>divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties themselves.
>
>There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown of
>marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that require a
>divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship has
>irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12 months
>separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove this point.
>Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
>
>From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's office I
found
>surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by the male
>folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me think
>also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many "wives"
>whereas one is married to his own wife.
>
>from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been largely
affected
>by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting in the
>church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault his own
>wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious to her
>without having been converted to the world.
>
>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is "I
>don't know, I still have to find out".
>
>God bless you all.
>
>Nick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
>
>
>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
>Dear friends,
>
>It has been very quite out there.
>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
>
>He will come!
>
>Jeremiah
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ATTN ONELIST USERS: stay current on the latest activities,
>programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
><a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>Create a list for FRIENDS & FAMILY...
>...and YOU can WIN $100 to Amazon.com. For details, go to
><a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Teaser113 ">Click Here</a>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 12:23:58 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
I don't know about obsession, but the marriage vow still says '"TILL DEATH DO US APART"
As much as God CAN change the tasteless water into a sweet wine, He CAN sweeten a tasteless marriage. As much as He CAN create something out of nothing, He CAN create love where there is no love.
As long as there is life there is hope.
Hold on! Wait upon the Lord, for He is able!
Never give up!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/31 11:07 AM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Mashudu and Nick
Real love can also accept rejection, but obsession cannot.
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Nick wrote:
>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is "I
>>don't know, I still have to find out".
>
>To make the question even broader, what do you do when your husband/wife
does not love you any more?
>How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her love?
>Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other person needs
to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is not about
doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only your part,
but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might not see
your 50% as you see it.
>
>If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you too'. I
think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For love begets
love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real love can
break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is
irresistible. Real love comes from God.
>
>That's my try!
>
>With God, all things are possible!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM >>>
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
>My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce contributes
to
>the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral standards
>have declined in the society, in general, law makers have conveniently
>opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the land.
For
>example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE still
>exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted. The
enquiry
>that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of the
>continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may themselves
be
>divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties themselves.
>
>There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown of
>marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that require a
>divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship has
>irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12 months
>separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove this point.
>Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
>
>From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's office I
found
>surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by the male
>folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me think
>also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many "wives"
>whereas one is married to his own wife.
>
>from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been largely
affected
>by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting in the
>church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault his own
>wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious to her
>without having been converted to the world.
>
>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is "I
>don't know, I still have to find out".
>
>God bless you all.
>
>Nick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
>
>
>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>
>Dear friends,
>
>It has been very quite out there.
>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
>
>He will come!
>
>Jeremiah
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>ATTN ONELIST USERS: stay current on the latest activities,
>programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
><a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>Create a list for FRIENDS & FAMILY...
>...and YOU can WIN $100 to Amazon.com. For details, go to
><a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/Teaser113 ">Click Here</a>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The King is even at the door!
>====
>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
<a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The King is even at the door!
====
To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:41:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: 1888 Message
Daniel Wrote,
>I personally don't see the reason for the president's anger in this
case.
> Of course I do not know the manner in which Jones preached this
"new
> light". Let me tell you why. Suppose you discover something very
precious
> as the truth the two men discovered. Would you wait until it is
approved
> by the GC? Mrs White herself never, as far as I know, went to the
leaders
> of the church to "ask permission" to preach/teach whatever was
revealed to
> her. After discovering that Christ is our righteousness; we are
treated as
> if we had never sinned when we sincerely come to Him, we would
probably
> do exactly what the two men did. The point is: It's hard to be
silent
> once you receive such "a precious message".
> As I said before there might be genuine reasons why the president
was
> furious. We were unfortunately not there when that happened
Daniel,
These young men (Waggoner & Jones) violated a great principle that
had united the pioneers from the beginning of the movement, and
that's the principle of the priesthood of believers. The Adventist
church was founded by men and woman who came together to study and
search the scriptures. If one finds a new light he/she brings it to
the brethren for discussion. A typical example is that of the Sabbath
truth, after Joseph Bates came across the Sabbath truth he brought it
to the fellow believers for discussion.
These young men (Waggoner & Jones) were very sharp in their debates
and at times portraying the spirit of showing off. For this reason
Ellen White rebuke them in 1887, she wrote that Waggoner lacked
"humility and meekness", while Jones needed to cultivate "practical
godliness" Manus 15 1888
In early 1888 Ellen White also rebuked them for publishing their
views in the 'Signs of the times', she wrote:
"I have no hesitancy in saying you have made a mistake here. You have
departed from the positive directions God has given upon this matter,
and only harm will be the result. This is not in God's order. You
have now set the example for others to do as you have done, to feel
at liberty to put in their various ideas and theories and bring them
before the public, because you have done this. This will bring in a
state of things that you have not dreamed of. . . . It is no small
matter for you to come out in the Signs as you have done, and God has
plainly revealed that such things should not be done. We must keep
before the world a united front. Satan will triumph to see
differences among Seventh-day Adventists. These questions are not
vital points. . . . "
Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 75,76
She again wrote: "I do not think that years will wipe out the
impressions made at our last conference. I know how these things
work. I am satisfied that we must have more of Jesus and less of
self. If there is difference upon any parts of the understanding of
some particular passage of Scripture, then do not be with pen or
voice making your differences apparent and making a breach when there
is no need of this."
Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 79,
This clearly shows that the old guards (Butler, Smith and co.) were
not over reacting. The fact of the matter is that they were errors on
both sides, even though the old guards not only had a wrong strategy
they also had a wrong theology.
What should be the reaction of the church's leadership when a pastor
of the church decides to start preaching a new theology? He will be
violating this principle of the priesthood of believers. What do you
do when have found a new light? You bring it to the fellow believers
for discussion and if it is from God, the Holy Spirit open the eyes
of the brethren to see the light.
This was the problem with the church in Germany during the First
World War, when the German union decided to go against the stand of
the church of non-combatancy. The results were the formation of the
Reformed SDA church.
This principle of the priesthood of believers prevented the split
along Divisions lines on the policy of ordination of woman in the
1995 GC session.
He will come!
Jeremiah
__________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:03:27 +0200
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Baptism.
Dear Brethren
This morning I was looking in the book of Mark 1 and my attention was
drawn to verse 5"people from Jerusalem and from all over judea traveled
out into the wilderness to see and hear John.And when they confessed
their sins,he baptized them in the Jordan river" and in my mind came
this questions.I want to know how did they confess their sins,for I
still believe that the ceremonial law was still applicable,and John the
Baptist baptized them after the confession not of their faults but of
their sins?i want to know was there baptism before John the Baptist and
before Christ?
soon and very soon we are going to see the King of kings.
Sam
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mashudu Ravhengani [SMTP:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:03 AM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>
> Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has written a book called: The Marriage
> Covenant: A Biblical Study on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage. I
> think it is the best book on this subject. I highly recommend it; in
> fact I was so impressed with the book I went and bought a 2nd copy. It
> can be found at the ABC.
> You can also get some chapters of this book on the WEB; here is a link
> to chapter that deals with the issue of divorce:
> http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/marriage/5.html (Those without
> web access send me a mail at masabatha@yahoo.com)
>
> The view that Bacchiocchi seem to be expressing is that God hates
> divorce under any circumstances, including adultery (see his arguments
> in the above link). To address the issues raised by Jongimpi he
> suggests a conditional separation (a cooling off period). In my
> experience many couples who chose this option eventually found
> solution to their problems.
>
> My problem is not necessarily whether people should divorce or not,
> but how can we prevent a situation where people even think of
> divorcing?
> What are the things that cause one to think that divorce is the best
> solution? As Jongimpi has correctly pointed out, there are some
> couples who are divorced while they still living together.
> How do we prevent divorce in marriage and divorce out of marriage?
>
> Sorrow and mourning shall flee away!
>
> Jeremiah
>
> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/30 1:32 PM >>>
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> Ramo
> I think that is a difficult question. I could easily say, God does
> not
> allow for divorce, except when one partner has proved to be
> unfaithful. I
> believe this is true and Biblical, but where do we go from there?
>
> Sometimes when we say God does not approve of divorce we sound as if
> we are
> saying he approves of one being abused and dehumanised. Some have
> stayed
> in such relationships preferring to die than to divorce, for God hates
> divorce, what does HE love?
>
> I think the solution here is that, according to our church manual,
> which I
> think is in harmony with the Bible in this instance. That if one
> divorces
> for reasons that are unbiblical, God does not recognise that as
> divorce. In
> the eyes of God the person is still married, not that he/she must stay
> in
> the relationship, but is still regarded as married by God. He
> therefore
> cannot enter into any other marital relationship, as long as his/her
> partner
> is still alive.
>
> God hates that which leads to divorce. And to my mind absence of
> divorce
> does not mean presence of happiness in a relationship.
>
> Two hearts that love God cannot be far apart!
>
> Jongimpi
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
> To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 3:58 PM
> Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>
>
> From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
>
> Jongimpi,
>
> Apart from those that are explicitly mentioned in the bible, does God
> allow
> for divorce on other grounds (such as the ones you alluded to)?
>
> A lot of us have personal experience of living in families that fell
> apart
> due to divorce and can bear witness to the fact that had the marriage
> not
> ended, those involved would be worse off in many ways. While not
> advocating
> divorce, I think that grounds do exist for it in some cases.
>
> Having said all the above, I fully agree with you that if we follow
> God's
> lead prior to committing to anyone, we are setting ourselves up to
> enjoy
> marriage as God meant for us to enjoy it.
>
> Time doth softly, swiftly glide when there's love at home.
>
> Ramodise
>
>
>
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> ----------------------------
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> --
> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
> sa-sda@onelist.com
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_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 11:19:03 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Mashudu
I agree with you man of God, I am on your side. My fear is that we can
over burden love. I do not subscribe to the notion that love can change
everything. God loves us, he sent his only son to die for us, but not all
of us will be saved, love has not failed we have failed to respond.
Currently, I have a serious case of a woman who, in her own way, has done
everything to show love to her husband, and the last thing she was told
after a series of abuse, was that Let us divorce. Her question, is, where
have I failed? I loved my husband, why did that not work? She thinks that
maybe she did not love him strongly.
With this kind of experience, I think it is only proper for us to look at
the other side of love, and that is, Love is strong. God will have to
accept one day that there are people who do not want His love, love can be
rejected, but cannot be destroyed.
Let us love them not because we want them to change, but because we have
been changed by the love of God. Love can never fail, but those we love
can fail us.
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>
>I don't know about obsession, but the marriage vow still says '"TILL DEATH
DO US APART"
>As much as God CAN change the tasteless water into a sweet wine, He CAN
sweeten a tasteless marriage. As much as He CAN create something out of
nothing, He CAN create love where there is no love.
>As long as there is life there is hope.
>
>Hold on! Wait upon the Lord, for He is able!
>
>Never give up!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/31 11:07 AM >>>
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
>Mashudu and Nick
>Real love can also accept rejection, but obsession cannot.
>
>Love at home
>Jongimpi
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:04 PM
>Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
>>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>
>>Nick wrote:
>>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is
"I
>>>don't know, I still have to find out".
>>
>>To make the question even broader, what do you do when your husband/wife
>does not love you any more?
>>How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her love?
>>Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other person needs
>to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is not about
>doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only your part,
>but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might not see
>your 50% as you see it.
>>
>>If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you too'. I
>think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For love begets
>love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real love can
>break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is
>irresistible. Real love comes from God.
>>
>>That's my try!
>>
>>With God, all things are possible!
>>
>>Jeremiah
>>
>>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM >>>
>>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>>
>>My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce contributes
>to
>>the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral standards
>>have declined in the society, in general, law makers have conveniently
>>opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the land.
>For
>>example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE still
>>exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted. The
>enquiry
>>that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of the
>>continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may themselves
>be
>>divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties themselves.
>>
>>There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown of
>>marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that require a
>>divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship has
>>irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12 months
>>separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove this
point.
>>Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
>>
>>From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's office I
>found
>>surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by the
male
>>folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me think
>>also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many "wives"
>>whereas one is married to his own wife.
>>
>>from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been largely
>affected
>>by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting in the
>>church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault his own
>>wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious to her
>>without having been converted to the world.
>>
>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is "I
>>don't know, I still have to find out".
>>
>>God bless you all.
>>
>>Nick
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
>>Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
>>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
>>
>>
>>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>>
>>Dear friends,
>>
>>It has been very quite out there.
>>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
>>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
>>
>>He will come!
>>
>>Jeremiah
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>>
>>ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
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>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>The King is even at the door!
>>====
>>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>
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>>====
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>>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
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>>====
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>>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
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>====
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>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:34:50 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: RE: divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
Jongimpi,
How do you go around the vow that says "Till death do us part"? This does
not say "Till divorce do us part"? Could it be that this vow might also
imply the death of love on one of the parties? I am worried by the fact that
if one could wake up one morning not loving anymore, if such a thing is
there, then divorce will even be made easier and authorised under any
circumstances. I am becoming confused.
We cannot just divorce.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 11:19 AM
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Mashudu
I agree with you man of God, I am on your side. My fear is that we can
over burden love. I do not subscribe to the notion that love can change
everything. God loves us, he sent his only son to die for us, but not all
of us will be saved, love has not failed we have failed to respond.
Currently, I have a serious case of a woman who, in her own way, has done
everything to show love to her husband, and the last thing she was told
after a series of abuse, was that Let us divorce. Her question, is, where
have I failed? I loved my husband, why did that not work? She thinks that
maybe she did not love him strongly.
With this kind of experience, I think it is only proper for us to look at
the other side of love, and that is, Love is strong. God will have to
accept one day that there are people who do not want His love, love can be
rejected, but cannot be destroyed.
Let us love them not because we want them to change, but because we have
been changed by the love of God. Love can never fail, but those we love
can fail us.
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>
>I don't know about obsession, but the marriage vow still says '"TILL DEATH
DO US APART"
>As much as God CAN change the tasteless water into a sweet wine, He CAN
sweeten a tasteless marriage. As much as He CAN create something out of
nothing, He CAN create love where there is no love.
>As long as there is life there is hope.
>
>Hold on! Wait upon the Lord, for He is able!
>
>Never give up!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/31 11:07 AM >>>
>From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
>Mashudu and Nick
>Real love can also accept rejection, but obsession cannot.
>
>Love at home
>Jongimpi
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mashudu Ravhengani <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:04 PM
>Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] divorce? - irretrievable breakdown
>
>
>>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>>
>>Nick wrote:
>>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is
"I
>>>don't know, I still have to find out".
>>
>>To make the question even broader, what do you do when your husband/wife
>does not love you any more?
>>How do you try to convince him/her that you are worthy of his/her love?
>>Sometimes one can feel that I have done my 50% and the other person needs
>to do their 50%, however, as one wise man once said, marriage is not about
>doing your 50% percent but it's about doing 100%. Doing not only your part,
>but also the partner's part. There are times when the partner might not see
>your 50% as you see it.
>>
>>If you do you best and you partner still can not say 'I love you too'. I
>think you need to double your best, love him/her even more. For love begets
>love. We are never going to get love by wining an argument. Real love can
>break barriers; Real love can melt a heart of stone. Real love is
>irresistible. Real love comes from God.
>>
>>That's my try!
>>
>>With God, all things are possible!
>>
>>Jeremiah
>>
>>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/31 8:19 AM >>>
>>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>>
>>My view is that easy manner in which civil law allows divorce contributes
>to
>>the high rate that has crept into the church. Whereas our moral standards
>>have declined in the society, in general, law makers have conveniently
>>opened up a lot of gaps in the legal systems that are there in the land.
>For
>>example, the judicial officer simply has to establish whether LOVE still
>>exists or not. If the answer is negative the divorce is granted. The
>enquiry
>>that is done to see whether there are any reasonable prospects of the
>>continued existence of the marriage is left to lawyers who may themselves
>be
>>divorcees or even interested in one of the divorcing parties themselves.
>>
>>There is another enquiry pertaining to the irretrievable breakdown of
>>marriage. Here you have some mechanical rules of operation that require a
>>divorcing party to mention things that show that the relationship has
>>irretrievably broken down. Things like extramarital affair, 12 months
>>separation and sexual failure are frequently mentioned to prove this
point.
>>Henceforth the judicial officer will grant a divorce decree.
>>
>>From the little bit of experience I gathered in an attorney's office I
>found
>>surprising facts. There was a very high rate of fault committed by the
male
>>folks compared to females. It is precisely this point that made me think
>>also that males need to contain themselves and stop seeing many "wives"
>>whereas one is married to his own wife.
>>
>>from the foregoing I wish to state that the church has been largely
>affected
>>by these secular things. We get converted to worldliness sitting in the
>>church. I cannot understand, for example, why would a man assault his own
>>wife to a point of breaking her arm or do something very injurious to her
>>without having been converted to the world.
>>
>>Having said all this may anyone help me with this question: How should a
>>man/woman behave or feel when your partner cannot provide a conclusive
>>answer as to whether he/she still loves you. The only answer you get is "I
>>don't know, I still have to find out".
>>
>>God bless you all.
>>
>>Nick
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Masabatha Online [mailto:masabatha@yahoo.com]
>>Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:22 PM
>>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>>Subject: [sa-sda] divorce?
>>
>>
>>From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@yahoo.com>
>>
>>Dear friends,
>>
>>It has been very quite out there.
>>Why is there such a high degree of divorces in the church?
>>Is divorce and option for a Christian?
>>
>>He will come!
>>
>>Jeremiah
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>>
>>ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>The King is even at the door!
>>====
>>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>
>>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>>
>>ATTN ONELIST USERS: stay current on the latest activities,
>>programs, & features at ONElist by joining our member newsletter at
>><a href=" http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/onelist_announce ">Click</a>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>The King is even at the door!
>>====
>>To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to sa-sda@onelist.com
>>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>
>>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>>
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