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There are 16 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
2. Campmeeting '99
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
3. RE: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@xxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
4. RE: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
5. RE: Campmeeting '99
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@xxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
6. 1888 Message
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
7. Re: RE: Campmeeting '99
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
8. RE: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@xxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
9. Pastor Weiers Coetser's Paper: "Race matters in the SDA Church: Towards a Messianic Vision"
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
10. Re: Campmeeting '99
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
11. Re: Adventist World News Update
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
12. Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
13. Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
14. How can we reach the Adventists with the Gospel?
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
15. Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
16. Re: 1888 Message
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:10:22 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
Zithandwa zikaMdali,
I have a few points I wish to scribble as well - but they do not come
without a few puzzling problems for me. I wish we can discuss this.
Prevailing danger:
It is quite interesting that we have a chance to look at the issue
anyone of us can be a victim of. I hope we all realize that we are not
"divorce proof". I guess it would have been better if one could have a
relationship with himself or had powers to know and predict what the
other person is thinking. But, on the other hand, I guess it would bore
us to death though preventing marital hazzards - i.e., divorce. If you
already are married, pray that God helps you not endure the pain of
divorce leaving you with nothing else but memories and experiences to
refer to.
Whose line is it anyway?
It is quite interesting that noone gets into marriage planning to
divorce his or her spouse sooner or later. I guess they both wish to be
together for as long as eternity. They could have dicided on vat en set
if they wanted to do that but they both decided to be united in the
presence of God or the magistrate, if God is only limited in the church
or halls and never sits in magistrate courts, and spend money for the
occassion. I am talking here about Adventists, who are as fallible, I
know, but suppossed to be dedicated to their decision making. Not all
of them I know - but the majority.
Eat your vegies first:
One prevantive measure should be adhered to in this issue - a measure
that is mostly disregarded by most couples - doing first things first.
Eating your vegitables first? Did you consider and do the first things
first - inviting God in your decision making? This will help us develop
a powerful immune system and stamina to deal with marital problems -
dispite their nature. I think, I may be not very right is saying this,
most marriages are devoid of God's involvement from the onset. Unless
the Lord builds the house those who build it labour in vain - remember
that verse? I guess this is true for both men and women within and
without our church territory. It is God who knows if you should get
married, when to whom and how. Whether you should go to the magistrate
or just a pastor or have a bash of a wedding. He knows who is best for
you, like with King Saul, we humans look at the outside appearance and
what seems to suit us now - but God looks at the heart and the
hereafter. This does not mean that you won't have challanges but that
you won't look at them as problems deserving getting rid of your partner
but something to either work on or accept and live with.
Question time:
This raises a very important question to me I would like you to answer
concerning the phase preceeding divorce - marriage. What do we mean
when we talk about marriage?
1. Is marriage marriage because God was involved from the onset or it
is an agreement made by two people to live a committed life to one
another with or without God's invitation. If it means God's
involvement: in the OT it was said that if one committed as sin of
fornication with a virgin, woman, that is, he was to marry that woman.
Was God involved when was committed and will it be a marital
relationship with God's blessings? Or may be marriage in some instances
is a punitive measure than a wish of being with a person forever.
2. In cases where one is married to an unbeliever, I guess God is not
pleased with the union - if one sees the light should they be divorced
or must do like Paul once almost suggested that one should hang in there
may be the partner will see the light through you?
3. Vat en set, what should they do - they have sinned not once, but
have lived and are living like husband and wife - when they repent and
want to make right what was wrong must they get married or live seperate
lives?
Conclusion
I guess in cases of divorce it is difficult to come with a rug solution
to a problem, concerning individuals divorced, unless we sit down with
them. Another point worth considering is that most God loving divorced
couples still love one another but cannot go on in the relationship
because of the other partners lifestyle or abuse or the memory. If you
can get rid of what disturbs the relationship they can be a happy
couple, again. Strange enough, when people get involved they know and
accept that they are not angels and getting involved with no angels
either, but things that happen in some marriages make you wonder if she
or he is not the demon.
Just like being married I guess some divorced couples shouldn't have,
according to God they would have made it together, I believe. If I am
right this gives us a problem on determining, if its our duty, who
should be divorced and who shouldn't. In that case all I should do is
to take care of the divorced sister or brother and make sure that she or
he does not need. But, of course, there are limits in taking care of
the brother or sister.
This is no simple matter - God help us understand and accept our
circumstances if we cannot change them.
Pastor Papu: the quotation is from Messages to young peple somewhere.
Lungani
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/29/99 06:33PM >>>
Tankiso, and those who shared some insights on divorce
Why are so many people divorcing? Well the most qualified to answer,
are probably those who have gone through the experience. At the end of
this short discussion I would like to share one or two things I think we
should do to stop this scourge.
If they should not divorce what should they do? Be battered and
finally murdered in a relationship? Be emotionally and psychologically
abused to the extent that they lose their humanity and dignity in the
process? Sit by to baby sit the children that have been fathered or
mothered by the spouse in some extra marital relationship? Blessed are
those who die in their marital relationship for to them belongs the
kingdom of God? Blessed are those who suffer and are humiliated and
their trust betrayed, for great is their reward in heaven. Cursed is
the person who divorces his/her spouse for God hates divorce.
I know it may be very easy for some of us to theorise on this issue.
The above represent some of the reasons why people divorce, if we say
they should not divorce, we should also be bold enough to tell them what
they should do. Here is my list of things we can do, to prevent the
factors that led to divorce.
1. The church should stop teaching that Marriage is a must -
Many in support of this false teaching have misused what God said to
Adam, "It is not good for man to be alone..." as meaning that all
should get married. I do not think that this was referring to us but to
Adam, if it is true, then where do we put Christ? Because many believe
that there is something wrong if they do not marry, they throw
themselves at the first person that says I want to marry you, and this
is often the reason for divorce. Marriage become the reason for one's
existence, this reminds me of the ante-deluvians!
2. There is no Biblical support for a "rib theory"
Because Eve was taken from the side of Adam, some have deduced from
this, that every person has a rib somewhere that belongs to him or her.
This cannot make sense, for how many ribs can a person have? What if
the first spouse dies after a year or twenty, was that your rib? Will
the second person be your rib too? Or are we talking about one rib at
a time? People divorce thinking that they married a wrong person, and
they start a long search for a lost rib/person that was created for
him/her. The person you marry is the right one, make things work,
there is no better one anywhere, that is my opinion.
3. Love has been over-romanticised
Today many of those who say they are in love prove to be in love with
love. They love the feeling they are experiencing and when that
disappears, they go searching for a person who will provoke that
feeling. Love is a principle and not a feeling (EG White somewhere).
The best definition of love is found in 1 Cor. 13, maybe we need to read
it often. Because God has been removed from love, love has become a
destructive feeling that knows no limits.
4 Marriage thrives in Interdependence and not Codependence
We have taught and have come to believe that in order to be romantic,
we must psyche ourselves into believing that we cannot do without our
spouses. What we call love is nothing but obsession. You frequently
hear people saying to each other, "You are my life, without you, I would
die, what can I do without you? This to me is a language of worship
and not love. Many people are worshipping their spouse, and as such
make themselves vulnerable to abuse. People should be encouraged to be
independent, to be able to stand on their own, Marriage is not an
institution for people who are sick or those who need happiness. Let
people find happiness before and not in marriage. Sharing must take
place in marriage and not "sucking". We should find God first before we
can commit ourselves to anyone, anything less than this is a recipe for
disaster.
5.Wait, let me stop, for now, and give you a chance to engage with
the above.
Divorce is a serious matter, so should our discussion, simplistic
solution will not do.
Marriage is a holy institution but not every union is holy -
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Tankiso Letseli <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
To: SA-SDA <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:53 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging from
salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and
seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is fast
becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There were times
when we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of divorce in our
ranks. I think we are coming to a point where an Adventist will know
someone or a case in his/her local church which is divorce-related. The
same is true with HIV/AIDS challenge. When you say or quote this
statement: "God hates divorce!" I can almost hear a person remarking:
"So What? - Who cares?" I think the issue or plague of divorce will
need an approach that is more than quoting the Scriptures - "God hates
divorce." An approach that will go beyond marital counselling - to the
core of the problem. I do not have this approach, too. I am still
searching. May be our discussions will help give birth to this envisaged
approach.
Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or conflicts
by way of divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that bar
or discourage them from taking that route. And some of them prefer to
divorce in spite of many many reasons that should keep them together.
But they still prefer to go the "divorce" way. May be the cause is not
in divorce, because "divorce" is a by-product or a result of an eroded
relationship between the affected parties, and to a certain extend - an
eroded relationship between an individual and his/her God. I sympathise
with those who are also their journey to find a solution to this
problem.
Tankiso Letseli
tletseli@mweb.co.za
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:24:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Campmeeting '99
I'm so glad camp meeting has finally arrived. This is one of my favourite
gatherings in the church. I can still recall my first camp meeting in 1987
when I had just joined the Adventist Church. What a blessing it was to
listen to powerful sermons from Pastor Justice Mongwe, who was the main
speaker. I can still recall the theme "Where are the Reapers?" The New
Life Quartet, from Witbank, gave me something I had never heard before.
Their song "I'll Praise His name" blessed me a lot. It is nice to recall
past experiences, we should not forget where were are coming from.
Remembering God's providence in the past should strengthen our faith.
Only the Lord knows what He has in store for us this year. I hope that
this camp meeting will be equally uplifting. It is sad to note that the
Gospel is not preached as it was in the past. Our camp meetings are used
to discuss non-spiritual matters. It is disappointing to listen to
brethren arguing about farms, e.g Shalom, when they are supposed to "feed
the lambs" of God with the gospel. I pray that this does not become part
of the Sunday programme. We need to take campmeetings seriously.
Let me give you an example of what happened in my district last year.
The pastor who was supposed to take the morning manna on Sunday
morning never turned up. Young people waited in vain for about an hour.
Another Pastor then came and told us to join the adult section since our
pastor has gone to a wedding somewhere. This is very irresponsible!!!
I hope this will not happen this year.
Preach Christ and Him Crucified.
Daniel
E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:28:03 +0200
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@xxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: RE: Re: Plague of Divorce
Lungani
Many people trust God with the end product but not the
process/processes. It is important (works well theoratically) to invite
God from the moment the thought of marriage enters one's mind. From then
on God must be involved in the process of identifying the prospective
wife.
One other aspect that has worked for me and my family in many cases when
we desperately need something or an answer is fasting. Fasting these
dats seems to be a thing of the past. Yet it is a powerful tool in the
hands of Christians.
I have debated (in my heart of course) the time or point when marriage
takes place in the eyes of God. Is it when the couple agrees to get
married or when they are being blessed by the pastor or when?
With regard to divorce, it is hard to comment because we do not know
what goes in the hearts of those who intend to divorce. Also the degree
of pain felt and experienced until one decides to decide on divorce as
the way out. But my policy is that, if it is in conflict with your
conscience, then it is wrong irregardless of the reasons put on the
table.
Thanks
MXOLISI
> ----------
> From: Lungani Mfeka[SMTP:MfekaL@telkom.co.za]
> Reply To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 2:10 PM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>
> From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
>
> Zithandwa zikaMdali,
>
> I have a few points I wish to scribble as well - but they do not come
> without a few puzzling problems for me. I wish we can discuss this.
>
> Prevailing danger:
> It is quite interesting that we have a chance to look at the issue
> anyone of us can be a victim of. I hope we all realize that we are
> not
> "divorce proof". I guess it would have been better if one could have
> a
> relationship with himself or had powers to know and predict what the
> other person is thinking. But, on the other hand, I guess it would
> bore
> us to death though preventing marital hazzards - i.e., divorce. If
> you
> already are married, pray that God helps you not endure the pain of
> divorce leaving you with nothing else but memories and experiences to
> refer to.
>
> Whose line is it anyway?
> It is quite interesting that noone gets into marriage planning to
> divorce his or her spouse sooner or later. I guess they both wish to
> be
> together for as long as eternity. They could have dicided on vat en
> set
> if they wanted to do that but they both decided to be united in the
> presence of God or the magistrate, if God is only limited in the
> church
> or halls and never sits in magistrate courts, and spend money for the
> occassion. I am talking here about Adventists, who are as fallible,
> I
> know, but suppossed to be dedicated to their decision making. Not all
> of them I know - but the majority.
>
> Eat your vegies first:
> One prevantive measure should be adhered to in this issue - a measure
> that is mostly disregarded by most couples - doing first things first.
> Eating your vegitables first? Did you consider and do the first
> things
> first - inviting God in your decision making? This will help us
> develop
> a powerful immune system and stamina to deal with marital problems -
> dispite their nature. I think, I may be not very right is saying
> this,
> most marriages are devoid of God's involvement from the onset. Unless
> the Lord builds the house those who build it labour in vain - remember
> that verse? I guess this is true for both men and women within and
> without our church territory. It is God who knows if you should get
> married, when to whom and how. Whether you should go to the
> magistrate
> or just a pastor or have a bash of a wedding. He knows who is best
> for
> you, like with King Saul, we humans look at the outside appearance and
> what seems to suit us now - but God looks at the heart and the
> hereafter. This does not mean that you won't have challanges but that
> you won't look at them as problems deserving getting rid of your
> partner
> but something to either work on or accept and live with.
>
> Question time:
> This raises a very important question to me I would like you to answer
> concerning the phase preceeding divorce - marriage. What do we mean
> when we talk about marriage?
> 1. Is marriage marriage because God was involved from the onset or it
> is an agreement made by two people to live a committed life to one
> another with or without God's invitation. If it means God's
> involvement: in the OT it was said that if one committed as sin of
> fornication with a virgin, woman, that is, he was to marry that woman.
>
> Was God involved when was committed and will it be a marital
> relationship with God's blessings? Or may be marriage in some
> instances
> is a punitive measure than a wish of being with a person forever.
>
> 2. In cases where one is married to an unbeliever, I guess God is not
> pleased with the union - if one sees the light should they be
> divorced
> or must do like Paul once almost suggested that one should hang in
> there
> may be the partner will see the light through you?
>
> 3. Vat en set, what should they do - they have sinned not once, but
> have lived and are living like husband and wife - when they repent and
> want to make right what was wrong must they get married or live
> seperate
> lives?
>
> Conclusion
> I guess in cases of divorce it is difficult to come with a rug
> solution
> to a problem, concerning individuals divorced, unless we sit down with
> them. Another point worth considering is that most God loving
> divorced
> couples still love one another but cannot go on in the relationship
> because of the other partners lifestyle or abuse or the memory. If
> you
> can get rid of what disturbs the relationship they can be a happy
> couple, again. Strange enough, when people get involved they know and
> accept that they are not angels and getting involved with no angels
> either, but things that happen in some marriages make you wonder if
> she
> or he is not the demon.
>
> Just like being married I guess some divorced couples shouldn't have,
> according to God they would have made it together, I believe. If I am
> right this gives us a problem on determining, if its our duty, who
> should be divorced and who shouldn't. In that case all I should do is
> to take care of the divorced sister or brother and make sure that she
> or
> he does not need. But, of course, there are limits in taking care of
> the brother or sister.
>
> This is no simple matter - God help us understand and accept our
> circumstances if we cannot change them.
>
> Pastor Papu: the quotation is from Messages to young peple somewhere.
>
> Lungani
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/29/99 06:33PM >>>
> Tankiso, and those who shared some insights on divorce
>
> Why are so many people divorcing? Well the most qualified to answer,
> are probably those who have gone through the experience. At the end
> of
> this short discussion I would like to share one or two things I think
> we
> should do to stop this scourge.
>
> If they should not divorce what should they do? Be battered and
> finally murdered in a relationship? Be emotionally and
> psychologically
> abused to the extent that they lose their humanity and dignity in the
> process? Sit by to baby sit the children that have been fathered or
> mothered by the spouse in some extra marital relationship? Blessed
> are
> those who die in their marital relationship for to them belongs the
> kingdom of God? Blessed are those who suffer and are humiliated and
> their trust betrayed, for great is their reward in heaven. Cursed is
> the person who divorces his/her spouse for God hates divorce.
>
> I know it may be very easy for some of us to theorise on this issue.
>
> The above represent some of the reasons why people divorce, if we
> say
> they should not divorce, we should also be bold enough to tell them
> what
> they should do. Here is my list of things we can do, to prevent the
> factors that led to divorce.
>
> 1. The church should stop teaching that Marriage is a must -
> Many in support of this false teaching have misused what God said to
> Adam, "It is not good for man to be alone..." as meaning that all
> should get married. I do not think that this was referring to us but
> to
> Adam, if it is true, then where do we put Christ? Because many
> believe
> that there is something wrong if they do not marry, they throw
> themselves at the first person that says I want to marry you, and
> this
> is often the reason for divorce. Marriage become the reason for
> one's
> existence, this reminds me of the ante-deluvians!
>
> 2. There is no Biblical support for a "rib theory"
> Because Eve was taken from the side of Adam, some have deduced from
> this, that every person has a rib somewhere that belongs to him or
> her.
> This cannot make sense, for how many ribs can a person have? What if
> the first spouse dies after a year or twenty, was that your rib? Will
> the second person be your rib too? Or are we talking about one rib
> at
> a time? People divorce thinking that they married a wrong person, and
> they start a long search for a lost rib/person that was created for
> him/her. The person you marry is the right one, make things work,
> there is no better one anywhere, that is my opinion.
>
> 3. Love has been over-romanticised
> Today many of those who say they are in love prove to be in love with
> love. They love the feeling they are experiencing and when that
> disappears, they go searching for a person who will provoke that
> feeling. Love is a principle and not a feeling (EG White somewhere).
>
> The best definition of love is found in 1 Cor. 13, maybe we need to
> read
> it often. Because God has been removed from love, love has become a
> destructive feeling that knows no limits.
>
> 4 Marriage thrives in Interdependence and not Codependence
> We have taught and have come to believe that in order to be romantic,
> we must psyche ourselves into believing that we cannot do without our
> spouses. What we call love is nothing but obsession. You frequently
> hear people saying to each other, "You are my life, without you, I
> would
> die, what can I do without you? This to me is a language of worship
> and not love. Many people are worshipping their spouse, and as such
> make themselves vulnerable to abuse. People should be encouraged to
> be
> independent, to be able to stand on their own, Marriage is not an
> institution for people who are sick or those who need happiness. Let
> people find happiness before and not in marriage. Sharing must take
> place in marriage and not "sucking". We should find God first before
> we
> can commit ourselves to anyone, anything less than this is a recipe
> for
> disaster.
>
> 5.Wait, let me stop, for now, and give you a chance to engage with
> the above.
>
> Divorce is a serious matter, so should our discussion, simplistic
> solution will not do.
>
> Marriage is a holy institution but not every union is holy -
>
> Love at home
>
> Jongimpi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tankiso Letseli <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
> To: SA-SDA <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:53 PM
> Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>
>
> I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging
> from
> salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and
> seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is fast
> becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There were
> times
> when we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of divorce in our
> ranks. I think we are coming to a point where an Adventist will know
> someone or a case in his/her local church which is divorce-related.
> The
> same is true with HIV/AIDS challenge. When you say or quote this
> statement: "God hates divorce!" I can almost hear a person remarking:
>
> "So What? - Who cares?" I think the issue or plague of divorce will
> need an approach that is more than quoting the Scriptures - "God hates
> divorce." An approach that will go beyond marital counselling - to
> the
> core of the problem. I do not have this approach, too. I am still
> searching. May be our discussions will help give birth to this
> envisaged
> approach.
>
> Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or conflicts
> by way of divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that bar
> or discourage them from taking that route. And some of them prefer to
> divorce in spite of many many reasons that should keep them together.
> But they still prefer to go the "divorce" way. May be the cause is
> not
> in divorce, because "divorce" is a by-product or a result of an eroded
> relationship between the affected parties, and to a certain extend -
> an
> eroded relationship between an individual and his/her God. I
> sympathise
> with those who are also their journey to find a solution to this
> problem.
>
> Tankiso Letseli
> tletseli@mweb.co.za
>
>
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> ====
> To contribute to the discussions: send your mails to
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:43:11 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: Re: Plague of Divorce
Mxolisi,
Thank you for your response - I really appreciate it.
Concerning the conscience - be careful - it can send you straight into
the ditch.
Lungani
>>> Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA> 08/30/99 02:28PM >>>
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA>
Lungani
Many people trust God with the end product but not the
process/processes. It is important (works well theoratically) to
invite
God from the moment the thought of marriage enters one's mind. From
then
on God must be involved in the process of identifying the prospective
wife.
One other aspect that has worked for me and my family in many cases
when
we desperately need something or an answer is fasting. Fasting these
dats seems to be a thing of the past. Yet it is a powerful tool in the
hands of Christians.
I have debated (in my heart of course) the time or point when marriage
takes place in the eyes of God. Is it when the couple agrees to get
married or when they are being blessed by the pastor or when?
With regard to divorce, it is hard to comment because we do not know
what goes in the hearts of those who intend to divorce. Also the
degree
of pain felt and experienced until one decides to decide on divorce as
the way out. But my policy is that, if it is in conflict with your
conscience, then it is wrong irregardless of the reasons put on the
table.
Thanks
MXOLISI
> ----------
> From: Lungani Mfeka[SMTP:MfekaL@telkom.co.za]
> Reply To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 2:10 PM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>
> From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
>
> Zithandwa zikaMdali,
>
> I have a few points I wish to scribble as well - but they do not
come
> without a few puzzling problems for me. I wish we can discuss this.
>
> Prevailing danger:
> It is quite interesting that we have a chance to look at the issue
> anyone of us can be a victim of. I hope we all realize that we are
> not
> "divorce proof". I guess it would have been better if one could
have
> a
> relationship with himself or had powers to know and predict what the
> other person is thinking. But, on the other hand, I guess it would
> bore
> us to death though preventing marital hazzards - i.e., divorce. If
> you
> already are married, pray that God helps you not endure the pain of
> divorce leaving you with nothing else but memories and experiences
to
> refer to.
>
> Whose line is it anyway?
> It is quite interesting that noone gets into marriage planning to
> divorce his or her spouse sooner or later. I guess they both wish
to
> be
> together for as long as eternity. They could have dicided on vat en
> set
> if they wanted to do that but they both decided to be united in the
> presence of God or the magistrate, if God is only limited in the
> church
> or halls and never sits in magistrate courts, and spend money for
the
> occassion. I am talking here about Adventists, who are as
fallible,
> I
> know, but suppossed to be dedicated to their decision making. Not
all
> of them I know - but the majority.
>
> Eat your vegies first:
> One prevantive measure should be adhered to in this issue - a
measure
> that is mostly disregarded by most couples - doing first things
first.
> Eating your vegitables first? Did you consider and do the first
> things
> first - inviting God in your decision making? This will help us
> develop
> a powerful immune system and stamina to deal with marital problems -
> dispite their nature. I think, I may be not very right is saying
> this,
> most marriages are devoid of God's involvement from the onset.
Unless
> the Lord builds the house those who build it labour in vain -
remember
> that verse? I guess this is true for both men and women within and
> without our church territory. It is God who knows if you should get
> married, when to whom and how. Whether you should go to the
> magistrate
> or just a pastor or have a bash of a wedding. He knows who is best
> for
> you, like with King Saul, we humans look at the outside appearance
and
> what seems to suit us now - but God looks at the heart and the
> hereafter. This does not mean that you won't have challanges but
that
> you won't look at them as problems deserving getting rid of your
> partner
> but something to either work on or accept and live with.
>
> Question time:
> This raises a very important question to me I would like you to
answer
> concerning the phase preceeding divorce - marriage. What do we mean
> when we talk about marriage?
> 1. Is marriage marriage because God was involved from the onset or
it
> is an agreement made by two people to live a committed life to one
> another with or without God's invitation. If it means God's
> involvement: in the OT it was said that if one committed as sin of
> fornication with a virgin, woman, that is, he was to marry that
woman.
>
> Was God involved when was committed and will it be a marital
> relationship with God's blessings? Or may be marriage in some
> instances
> is a punitive measure than a wish of being with a person forever.
>
> 2. In cases where one is married to an unbeliever, I guess God is
not
> pleased with the union - if one sees the light should they be
> divorced
> or must do like Paul once almost suggested that one should hang in
> there
> may be the partner will see the light through you?
>
> 3. Vat en set, what should they do - they have sinned not once, but
> have lived and are living like husband and wife - when they repent
and
> want to make right what was wrong must they get married or live
> seperate
> lives?
>
> Conclusion
> I guess in cases of divorce it is difficult to come with a rug
> solution
> to a problem, concerning individuals divorced, unless we sit down
with
> them. Another point worth considering is that most God loving
> divorced
> couples still love one another but cannot go on in the relationship
> because of the other partners lifestyle or abuse or the memory. If
> you
> can get rid of what disturbs the relationship they can be a happy
> couple, again. Strange enough, when people get involved they know
and
> accept that they are not angels and getting involved with no angels
> either, but things that happen in some marriages make you wonder if
> she
> or he is not the demon.
>
> Just like being married I guess some divorced couples shouldn't
have,
> according to God they would have made it together, I believe. If I
am
> right this gives us a problem on determining, if its our duty, who
> should be divorced and who shouldn't. In that case all I should do
is
> to take care of the divorced sister or brother and make sure that
she
> or
> he does not need. But, of course, there are limits in taking care
of
> the brother or sister.
>
> This is no simple matter - God help us understand and accept our
> circumstances if we cannot change them.
>
> Pastor Papu: the quotation is from Messages to young peple
somewhere.
>
> Lungani
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/29/99 06:33PM >>>
> Tankiso, and those who shared some insights on divorce
>
> Why are so many people divorcing? Well the most qualified to
answer,
> are probably those who have gone through the experience. At the end
> of
> this short discussion I would like to share one or two things I
think
> we
> should do to stop this scourge.
>
> If they should not divorce what should they do? Be battered and
> finally murdered in a relationship? Be emotionally and
> psychologically
> abused to the extent that they lose their humanity and dignity in
the
> process? Sit by to baby sit the children that have been fathered or
> mothered by the spouse in some extra marital relationship? Blessed
> are
> those who die in their marital relationship for to them belongs the
> kingdom of God? Blessed are those who suffer and are humiliated and
> their trust betrayed, for great is their reward in heaven. Cursed
is
> the person who divorces his/her spouse for God hates divorce.
>
> I know it may be very easy for some of us to theorise on this
issue.
>
> The above represent some of the reasons why people divorce, if we
> say
> they should not divorce, we should also be bold enough to tell them
> what
> they should do. Here is my list of things we can do, to prevent the
> factors that led to divorce.
>
> 1. The church should stop teaching that Marriage is a must -
> Many in support of this false teaching have misused what God said
to
> Adam, "It is not good for man to be alone..." as meaning that all
> should get married. I do not think that this was referring to us
but
> to
> Adam, if it is true, then where do we put Christ? Because many
> believe
> that there is something wrong if they do not marry, they throw
> themselves at the first person that says I want to marry you, and
> this
> is often the reason for divorce. Marriage become the reason for
> one's
> existence, this reminds me of the ante-deluvians!
>
> 2. There is no Biblical support for a "rib theory"
> Because Eve was taken from the side of Adam, some have deduced from
> this, that every person has a rib somewhere that belongs to him or
> her.
> This cannot make sense, for how many ribs can a person have? What
if
> the first spouse dies after a year or twenty, was that your rib?
Will
> the second person be your rib too? Or are we talking about one rib
> at
> a time? People divorce thinking that they married a wrong person,
and
> they start a long search for a lost rib/person that was created for
> him/her. The person you marry is the right one, make things work,
> there is no better one anywhere, that is my opinion.
>
> 3. Love has been over-romanticised
> Today many of those who say they are in love prove to be in love
with
> love. They love the feeling they are experiencing and when that
> disappears, they go searching for a person who will provoke that
> feeling. Love is a principle and not a feeling (EG White
somewhere).
>
> The best definition of love is found in 1 Cor. 13, maybe we need to
> read
> it often. Because God has been removed from love, love has become
a
> destructive feeling that knows no limits.
>
> 4 Marriage thrives in Interdependence and not Codependence
> We have taught and have come to believe that in order to be
romantic,
> we must psyche ourselves into believing that we cannot do without
our
> spouses. What we call love is nothing but obsession. You
frequently
> hear people saying to each other, "You are my life, without you, I
> would
> die, what can I do without you? This to me is a language of
worship
> and not love. Many people are worshipping their spouse, and as
such
> make themselves vulnerable to abuse. People should be encouraged to
> be
> independent, to be able to stand on their own, Marriage is not an
> institution for people who are sick or those who need happiness.
Let
> people find happiness before and not in marriage. Sharing must take
> place in marriage and not "sucking". We should find God first
before
> we
> can commit ourselves to anyone, anything less than this is a recipe
> for
> disaster.
>
> 5.Wait, let me stop, for now, and give you a chance to engage
with
> the above.
>
> Divorce is a serious matter, so should our discussion, simplistic
> solution will not do.
>
> Marriage is a holy institution but not every union is holy -
>
> Love at home
>
> Jongimpi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tankiso Letseli <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
> To: SA-SDA <sa-sda@onelist.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:53 PM
> Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>
>
> I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging
> from
> salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and
> seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is
fast
> becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There were
> times
> when we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of divorce in our
> ranks. I think we are coming to a point where an Adventist will
know
> someone or a case in his/her local church which is divorce-related.
> The
> same is true with HIV/AIDS challenge. When you say or quote this
> statement: "God hates divorce!" I can almost hear a person
remarking:
>
> "So What? - Who cares?" I think the issue or plague of divorce will
> need an approach that is more than quoting the Scriptures - "God
hates
> divorce." An approach that will go beyond marital counselling - to
> the
> core of the problem. I do not have this approach, too. I am still
> searching. May be our discussions will help give birth to this
> envisaged
> approach.
>
> Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or
conflicts
> by way of divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that
bar
> or discourage them from taking that route. And some of them prefer
to
> divorce in spite of many many reasons that should keep them
together.
> But they still prefer to go the "divorce" way. May be the cause is
> not
> in divorce, because "divorce" is a by-product or a result of an
eroded
> relationship between the affected parties, and to a certain extend -
> an
> eroded relationship between an individual and his/her God. I
> sympathise
> with those who are also their journey to find a solution to this
> problem.
>
> Tankiso Letseli
> tletseli@mweb.co.za
>
>
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:34:15 +0200
From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@xxxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: RE: Campmeeting '99
Daniel
True, it seems the blessings that used to be experienced in camp
meetings is no more there. Sunday it is a business day, where we discuss
Shalom (which we even don't own as the issue of the title deed has been
outstanding since I came to this district 12 years ago.
I hope and pray that this year we would have Jesus and Jesus only.
Thanks
MXOLISI
> ----------
> From: Daniel Dlongolo[SMTP:daniel@4gl.co.za]
> Reply To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 4:24 PM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: [sa-sda] Campmeeting '99
>
> From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
>
>
> I'm so glad camp meeting has finally arrived. This is one of my
> favourite
> gatherings in the church. I can still recall my first camp meeting in
> 1987
> when I had just joined the Adventist Church. What a blessing it was to
> listen to powerful sermons from Pastor Justice Mongwe, who was the
> main
> speaker. I can still recall the theme "Where are the Reapers?" The New
>
> Life Quartet, from Witbank, gave me something I had never heard
> before.
> Their song "I'll Praise His name" blessed me a lot. It is nice to
> recall
> past experiences, we should not forget where were are coming from.
> Remembering God's providence in the past should strengthen our faith.
>
> Only the Lord knows what He has in store for us this year. I hope that
> this camp meeting will be equally uplifting. It is sad to note that
> the
> Gospel is not preached as it was in the past. Our camp meetings are
> used
> to discuss non-spiritual matters. It is disappointing to listen to
> brethren arguing about farms, e.g Shalom, when they are supposed to
> "feed
> the lambs" of God with the gospel. I pray that this does not become
> part
> of the Sunday programme. We need to take campmeetings seriously.
> Let me give you an example of what happened in my district last year.
> The pastor who was supposed to take the morning manna on Sunday
> morning never turned up. Young people waited in vain for about an
> hour.
> Another Pastor then came and told us to join the adult section since
> our
> pastor has gone to a wedding somewhere. This is very irresponsible!!!
>
>
> I hope this will not happen this year.
>
> Preach Christ and Him Crucified.
>
> Daniel
> E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
>
>
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:13:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: 1888 Message
Friends,
What EXACTLY is the 1888 Message? And how is it "the third angel's
message in verity"? It is interesting to note that it was given to the
church when the church had preached the law until it was dry. Secondly,
the results of the message were wonderful. Church history reveals that
thousands joined the Adventist church because of those messages which came
through Elder Alonzo T. Jones and Elder Waggoner. It is also
interesting to note that even EGW's focus in writing changed. She wrote
more of "the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world". She wrote
books like Desire of Ages, Steps To Christ. These, together with "Christ's
Object Lessons", are in my opinion her best books.
Lastly, it is interesting to note that some brethren opposed the message
fearing that they will be misled to preach a different message to
what they considered "Present truth" , i.e the third angel's
message. EGW had to assure them that the 1888 message was/is "the third
angel's message in verity."
But what exactly is the 1888 message?
One who was there when Elder Jones presented the message wrote:
"The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His people
through Elders Waggoner and Jones. This message was to bring more
prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice for the
sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the
Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ,
which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. Many
had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His
divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family.
All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto
men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the helpless
human agent. This is the message that God commanded to be given to the
world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a
aloud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large
measure."
Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 91, 92
Chapter Title: Faithful Earnest Warnings
How relevant is this message to our generation? I believe it is still the
message "which is to be given to the world."
Is this the message we preach in our evangelisting campaigns?
"..the uplifed Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world"
Or "have we lost sight of Jesus"? Do we "need to have our eyes directed
to His divine person, His merits, His changeless love for the human
family"?
Daniel
E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:28:29 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: Campmeeting '99
May be the question is whether we realy need to have business meetings at the Camp Meeting?
Can't we just leave it to be a spiritual event?
He will come!
Jeremiah
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:38:24 +0200
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@xxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: RE: Re: Plague of Divorce
Jongimpi,
Apart from those that are explicitly mentioned in the bible, does God allow
for divorce on other grounds (such as the ones you alluded to)?
A lot of us have personal experience of living in families that fell apart
due to divorce and can bear witness to the fact that had the marriage not
ended, those involved would be worse off in many ways. While not advocating
divorce, I think that grounds do exist for it in some cases.
Having said all the above, I fully agree with you that if we follow God's
lead prior to committing to anyone, we are setting ourselves up to enjoy
marriage as God meant for us to enjoy it.
Time doth softly, swiftly glide when there's love at home.
Ramodise
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 18:34
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
Tankiso, and those who shared some insights on divorce
Why are so many people divorcing? Well the most qualified to answer, are
probably those who have gone through the experience. At the end of this
short discussion I would like to share one or two things I think we should
do to stop this scourge.
If they should not divorce what should they do? Be battered and finally
murdered in a relationship? Be emotionally and psychologically abused to
the extent that they lose their humanity and dignity in the process? Sit by
to baby sit the children that have been fathered or mothered by the spouse
in some extra marital relationship? Blessed are those who die in their
marital relationship for to them belongs the kingdom of God? Blessed are
those who suffer and are humiliated and their trust betrayed, for great is
their reward in heaven. Cursed is the person who divorces his/her spouse
for God hates divorce.
I know it may be very easy for some of us to theorise on this issue.
The above represent some of the reasons why people divorce, if we say they
should not divorce, we should also be bold enough to tell them what they
should do. Here is my list of things we can do, to prevent the factors that
led to divorce.
1. The church should stop teaching that Marriage is a must -
Many in support of this false teaching have misused what God said to Adam,
"It is not good for man to be alone..." as meaning that all should get
married. I do not think that this was referring to us but to Adam, if it is
true, then where do we put Christ? Because many believe that there is
something wrong if they do not marry, they throw themselves at the first
person that says I want to marry you, and this is often the reason for
divorce. Marriage become the reason for one's existence, this reminds me
of the ante-deluvians!
2. There is no Biblical support for a "rib theory"
Because Eve was taken from the side of Adam, some have deduced from this,
that every person has a rib somewhere that belongs to him or her. This
cannot make sense, for how many ribs can a person have? What if the first
spouse dies after a year or twenty, was that your rib? Will the second
person be your rib too? Or are we talking about one rib at a time? People
divorce thinking that they married a wrong person, and they start a long
search for a lost rib/person that was created for him/her. The person you
marry is the right one, make things work, there is no better one anywhere,
that is my opinion.
3. Love has been over-romanticised
Today many of those who say they are in love prove to be in love with
love. They love the feeling they are experiencing and when that
disappears, they go searching for a person who will provoke that feeling.
Love is a principle and not a feeling (EG White somewhere). The best
definition of love is found in 1 Cor. 13, maybe we need to read it often.
Because God has been removed from love, love has become a destructive
feeling that knows no limits.
4 Marriage thrives in Interdependence and not Codependence
We have taught and have come to believe that in order to be romantic, we
must psyche ourselves into believing that we cannot do without our
spouses. What we call love is nothing but obsession. You frequently hear
people saying to each other, "You are my life, without you, I would die,
what can I do without you? This to me is a language of worship and not
love. Many people are worshipping their spouse, and as such make
themselves vulnerable to abuse. People should be encouraged to be
independent, to be able to stand on their own, Marriage is not an
institution for people who are sick or those who need happiness. Let
people find happiness before and not in marriage. Sharing must take place
in marriage and not "sucking". We should find God first before we can
commit ourselves to anyone, anything less than this is a recipe for
disaster.
5.Wait, let me stop, for now, and give you a chance to engage with the
above.
Divorce is a serious matter, so should our discussion, simplistic solution
will not do.
Marriage is a holy institution but not every union is holy -
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Tankiso Letseli < tletseli@mweb.co.za <mailto:tletseli@mweb.co.za> >
To: SA-SDA < sa-sda@onelist.com <mailto:sa-sda@onelist.com> >
Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:53 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging from
salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and
seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is fast
becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There were times when
we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of divorce in our ranks. I
think we are coming to a point where an Adventist will know someone or a
case in his/her local church which is divorce-related. The same is true
with HIV/AIDS challenge. When you say or quote this statement: "God hates
divorce!" I can almost hear a person remarking: "So What? - Who cares?" I
think the issue or plague of divorce will need an approach that is more than
quoting the Scriptures - "God hates divorce." An approach that will go
beyond marital counselling - to the core of the problem. I do not have this
approach, too. I am still searching. May be our discussions will help give
birth to this envisaged approach.
Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or conflicts by way of
divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that bar or
discourage them from taking that route. And some of them prefer to divorce
in spite of many many reasons that should keep them together. But they still
prefer to go the "divorce" way. May be the cause is not in divorce, because
"divorce" is a by-product or a result of an eroded relationship between the
affected parties, and to a certain extend - an eroded relationship between
an individual and his/her God. I sympathise with those who are also their
journey to find a solution to this problem.
Tankiso Letseli
tletseli@mweb.co.za <mailto:tletseli@mweb.co.za>
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:32:03 +0200
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Pastor Weiers Coetser's Paper: "Race matters in the SDA Church: Towards a Messianic Vision"
Greetings. I suspect that some of you might have read an article/paper authored by Pastor Weiers Coetser about race relations in the SDA Church, and the approach he is suggesting as a way to address that dilemma. He also alludes to the external challenges he is facing in his love-relationship with a coloured lady. Weiers is white from an Afrikaans speaking background.
I am under the impression that you interacted with his views. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that some might have been discouraged by the length of his paper. I wish we could interact with it in the light of the topic: "plague of divorce" that is currently under discussion. Weiers focuses on interracial marriages and their challenges, and he proposes an approach as an attempt to cause a change of attitude among Adventists in South Africa. Happy reading!
Paper: Race Matters in the Seventh-day Adventist Church: Towards a
Messianic Vision
http://www.tagnet.org/masabatha/race.html
I am sure there will be a lot of discussion on this paper,
Tankiso Letseli
tletseli@mweb.co.za
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:42:46 +0200
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Campmeeting '99
Dan,
I must agree with you on some points. I feel that camp meetings have
become an "opportunity" to conduct church business. "If you can't catch
them on Sunday or during the week catch them after the divine service on
Sabbath, or better still, catch them at camp meeting". Does it sound
familiar? What has happened to pastoral accountability and church member
responsibility? Is this a symptom that the spirit of sacrifice has died
out, we are all too busy?
The King is coming!!!!!
Andrew
>>> Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za> 08/30/99 04:24PM >>>
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
I'm so glad camp meeting has finally arrived. This is one of my
favourite
gatherings in the church. I can still recall my first camp meeting in
1987
when I had just joined the Adventist Church. What a blessing it was to
listen to powerful sermons from Pastor Justice Mongwe, who was the main
speaker. I can still recall the theme "Where are the Reapers?" The New
Life Quartet, from Witbank, gave me something I had never heard
before.
Their song "I'll Praise His name" blessed me a lot. It is nice to
recall
past experiences, we should not forget where were are coming from.
Remembering God's providence in the past should strengthen our faith.
Only the Lord knows what He has in store for us this year. I hope that
this camp meeting will be equally uplifting. It is sad to note that
the
Gospel is not preached as it was in the past. Our camp meetings are
used
to discuss non-spiritual matters. It is disappointing to listen to
brethren arguing about farms, e.g Shalom, when they are supposed to
"feed
the lambs" of God with the gospel. I pray that this does not become
part
of the Sunday programme. We need to take campmeetings seriously.
Let me give you an example of what happened in my district last year.
The pastor who was supposed to take the morning manna on Sunday
morning never turned up. Young people waited in vain for about an
hour.
Another Pastor then came and told us to join the adult section since
our
pastor has gone to a wedding somewhere. This is very irresponsible!!!
I hope this will not happen this year.
Preach Christ and Him Crucified.
Daniel
E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:49:12 +0200
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Adventist World News Update
Jerry,
I was challenging the view that Pastors will now be able to offer
practical advice and not just Biblical advice. My view is that Biblical
advice should be practical.
The King is coming!!!!!
Andrew
>>> "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu> 08/27/99 04:02PM >>>
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Andrew,
When one talks about practical advice, what comes to your mind?
This reminds our (Andrew, myself and may be Ramodise) experience with
that fellow who is now a big shot director in the national health
department.
For all of you, this is what happened.
Some years ago when we were studying in the Cape, one Sabbath afternoon
we were invited by this brother to see a video on AIDS in his home. I
turn out that this video was advocating saver sex. At the end of the
video, the brother open the floor for discussion, his open remarks were:
"It is true, we all have sex (practice pre-marital sex), so lets discuss
safer sex".
Some of us were greatly offended and refused to discuss safer sex.
Andrew, I guess the practical advice they are talking about is not
safer sex. They are probably talking about how to take care of those who
are infected by Aids, as I said I am guessing.
It won't be long!
Jeremiah
>>> "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za> 08/27 7:23 AM >>>
From: "Andrew Modise" <ModisMA1@telkom.co.za>
Jerry,
It's good to hear that our Pastors received some AIDS training. I read
that they would, in addition to Biblical advice, also be able to give
practical advice. What does practical advice constitute? Is the
implication here that Biblical advice can not deal with AIDS/HIV issues
because it is not practical? Or have we reached a moral cul-de-sac and
Biblical advice amounts to spiritualising issues which are essentially
"practical"?
He is coming!!!
Andrew
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:32:03 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
Ramo
I think that is a difficult question. I could easily say, God does not
allow for divorce, except when one partner has proved to be unfaithful. I
believe this is true and Biblical, but where do we go from there?
Sometimes when we say God does not approve of divorce we sound as if we are
saying he approves of one being abused and dehumanised. Some have stayed
in such relationships preferring to die than to divorce, for God hates
divorce, what does HE love?
I think the solution here is that, according to our church manual, which I
think is in harmony with the Bible in this instance. That if one divorces
for reasons that are unbiblical, God does not recognise that as divorce. In
the eyes of God the person is still married, not that he/she must stay in
the relationship, but is still regarded as married by God. He therefore
cannot enter into any other marital relationship, as long as his/her partner
is still alive.
God hates that which leads to divorce. And to my mind absence of divorce
does not mean presence of happiness in a relationship.
Two hearts that love God cannot be far apart!
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
Jongimpi,
Apart from those that are explicitly mentioned in the bible, does God allow
for divorce on other grounds (such as the ones you alluded to)?
A lot of us have personal experience of living in families that fell apart
due to divorce and can bear witness to the fact that had the marriage not
ended, those involved would be worse off in many ways. While not advocating
divorce, I think that grounds do exist for it in some cases.
Having said all the above, I fully agree with you that if we follow God's
lead prior to committing to anyone, we are setting ourselves up to enjoy
marriage as God meant for us to enjoy it.
Time doth softly, swiftly glide when there's love at home.
Ramodise
-----Original Message-----
From: Jongimpi Papu [mailto:j.d.papu@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 18:34
To: sa-sda@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
Tankiso, and those who shared some insights on divorce
Why are so many people divorcing? Well the most qualified to answer, are
probably those who have gone through the experience. At the end of this
short discussion I would like to share one or two things I think we should
do to stop this scourge.
If they should not divorce what should they do? Be battered and finally
murdered in a relationship? Be emotionally and psychologically abused to
the extent that they lose their humanity and dignity in the process? Sit by
to baby sit the children that have been fathered or mothered by the spouse
in some extra marital relationship? Blessed are those who die in their
marital relationship for to them belongs the kingdom of God? Blessed are
those who suffer and are humiliated and their trust betrayed, for great is
their reward in heaven. Cursed is the person who divorces his/her spouse
for God hates divorce.
I know it may be very easy for some of us to theorise on this issue.
The above represent some of the reasons why people divorce, if we say they
should not divorce, we should also be bold enough to tell them what they
should do. Here is my list of things we can do, to prevent the factors that
led to divorce.
1. The church should stop teaching that Marriage is a must -
Many in support of this false teaching have misused what God said to Adam,
"It is not good for man to be alone..." as meaning that all should get
married. I do not think that this was referring to us but to Adam, if it is
true, then where do we put Christ? Because many believe that there is
something wrong if they do not marry, they throw themselves at the first
person that says I want to marry you, and this is often the reason for
divorce. Marriage become the reason for one's existence, this reminds me
of the ante-deluvians!
2. There is no Biblical support for a "rib theory"
Because Eve was taken from the side of Adam, some have deduced from this,
that every person has a rib somewhere that belongs to him or her. This
cannot make sense, for how many ribs can a person have? What if the first
spouse dies after a year or twenty, was that your rib? Will the second
person be your rib too? Or are we talking about one rib at a time? People
divorce thinking that they married a wrong person, and they start a long
search for a lost rib/person that was created for him/her. The person you
marry is the right one, make things work, there is no better one anywhere,
that is my opinion.
3. Love has been over-romanticised
Today many of those who say they are in love prove to be in love with
love. They love the feeling they are experiencing and when that
disappears, they go searching for a person who will provoke that feeling.
Love is a principle and not a feeling (EG White somewhere). The best
definition of love is found in 1 Cor. 13, maybe we need to read it often.
Because God has been removed from love, love has become a destructive
feeling that knows no limits.
4 Marriage thrives in Interdependence and not Codependence
We have taught and have come to believe that in order to be romantic, we
must psyche ourselves into believing that we cannot do without our
spouses. What we call love is nothing but obsession. You frequently hear
people saying to each other, "You are my life, without you, I would die,
what can I do without you? This to me is a language of worship and not
love. Many people are worshipping their spouse, and as such make
themselves vulnerable to abuse. People should be encouraged to be
independent, to be able to stand on their own, Marriage is not an
institution for people who are sick or those who need happiness. Let
people find happiness before and not in marriage. Sharing must take place
in marriage and not "sucking". We should find God first before we can
commit ourselves to anyone, anything less than this is a recipe for
disaster.
5.Wait, let me stop, for now, and give you a chance to engage with the
above.
Divorce is a serious matter, so should our discussion, simplistic solution
will not do.
Marriage is a holy institution but not every union is holy -
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Tankiso Letseli < tletseli@mweb.co.za <mailto:tletseli@mweb.co.za> >
To: SA-SDA < sa-sda@onelist.com <mailto:sa-sda@onelist.com> >
Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:53 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging from
salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and
seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is fast
becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There were times when
we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of divorce in our ranks. I
think we are coming to a point where an Adventist will know someone or a
case in his/her local church which is divorce-related. The same is true
with HIV/AIDS challenge. When you say or quote this statement: "God hates
divorce!" I can almost hear a person remarking: "So What? - Who cares?" I
think the issue or plague of divorce will need an approach that is more than
quoting the Scriptures - "God hates divorce." An approach that will go
beyond marital counselling - to the core of the problem. I do not have this
approach, too. I am still searching. May be our discussions will help give
birth to this envisaged approach.
Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or conflicts by way of
divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that bar or
discourage them from taking that route. And some of them prefer to divorce
in spite of many many reasons that should keep them together. But they still
prefer to go the "divorce" way. May be the cause is not in divorce, because
"divorce" is a by-product or a result of an eroded relationship between the
affected parties, and to a certain extend - an eroded relationship between
an individual and his/her God. I sympathise with those who are also their
journey to find a solution to this problem.
Tankiso Letseli
tletseli@mweb.co.za <mailto:tletseli@mweb.co.za>
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:37:52 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
Lungani
Your statement on conscience is profound and I dare say pregnant with
meaning, I do see your point though. But help me here, If one must be
careful of his conscience, with what is he going to do that?
I thought that the conscience was the organ the Holy Spirit uses to show us
the wrong and the right. If you must watch your conscience one must be
really in trouble.
HE is coming whether we believe it or not.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Lungani Mfeka <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 2:43 PM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
>
>Mxolisi,
>
>Thank you for your response - I really appreciate it.
>
>Concerning the conscience - be careful - it can send you straight into
>the ditch.
>
>Lungani
>
>>>> Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA> 08/30/99 02:28PM >>>
>From: Nxumalo T <Nxumalo.T@EDU1.PWV.GOV.ZA>
>
>Lungani
>
>Many people trust God with the end product but not the
>process/processes. It is important (works well theoratically) to
>invite
>God from the moment the thought of marriage enters one's mind. From
>then
>on God must be involved in the process of identifying the prospective
>wife.
>
>One other aspect that has worked for me and my family in many cases
>when
>we desperately need something or an answer is fasting. Fasting these
>dats seems to be a thing of the past. Yet it is a powerful tool in the
>hands of Christians.
>
>I have debated (in my heart of course) the time or point when marriage
>takes place in the eyes of God. Is it when the couple agrees to get
>married or when they are being blessed by the pastor or when?
>
>With regard to divorce, it is hard to comment because we do not know
>what goes in the hearts of those who intend to divorce. Also the
>degree
>of pain felt and experienced until one decides to decide on divorce as
>the way out. But my policy is that, if it is in conflict with your
>conscience, then it is wrong irregardless of the reasons put on the
>table.
>
>Thanks
>MXOLISI
>> ----------
>> From: Lungani Mfeka[SMTP:MfekaL@telkom.co.za]
>> Reply To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 2:10 PM
>> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>> Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>>
>> From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
>>
>> Zithandwa zikaMdali,
>>
>> I have a few points I wish to scribble as well - but they do not
>come
>> without a few puzzling problems for me. I wish we can discuss this.
>>
>> Prevailing danger:
>> It is quite interesting that we have a chance to look at the issue
>> anyone of us can be a victim of. I hope we all realize that we are
>> not
>> "divorce proof". I guess it would have been better if one could
>have
>> a
>> relationship with himself or had powers to know and predict what the
>> other person is thinking. But, on the other hand, I guess it would
>> bore
>> us to death though preventing marital hazzards - i.e., divorce. If
>> you
>> already are married, pray that God helps you not endure the pain of
>> divorce leaving you with nothing else but memories and experiences
>to
>> refer to.
>>
>> Whose line is it anyway?
>> It is quite interesting that noone gets into marriage planning to
>> divorce his or her spouse sooner or later. I guess they both wish
>to
>> be
>> together for as long as eternity. They could have dicided on vat en
>> set
>> if they wanted to do that but they both decided to be united in the
>> presence of God or the magistrate, if God is only limited in the
>> church
>> or halls and never sits in magistrate courts, and spend money for
>the
>> occassion. I am talking here about Adventists, who are as
>fallible,
>> I
>> know, but suppossed to be dedicated to their decision making. Not
>all
>> of them I know - but the majority.
>>
>> Eat your vegies first:
>> One prevantive measure should be adhered to in this issue - a
>measure
>> that is mostly disregarded by most couples - doing first things
>first.
>> Eating your vegitables first? Did you consider and do the first
>> things
>> first - inviting God in your decision making? This will help us
>> develop
>> a powerful immune system and stamina to deal with marital problems -
>> dispite their nature. I think, I may be not very right is saying
>> this,
>> most marriages are devoid of God's involvement from the onset.
>Unless
>> the Lord builds the house those who build it labour in vain -
>remember
>> that verse? I guess this is true for both men and women within and
>> without our church territory. It is God who knows if you should get
>> married, when to whom and how. Whether you should go to the
>> magistrate
>> or just a pastor or have a bash of a wedding. He knows who is best
>> for
>> you, like with King Saul, we humans look at the outside appearance
>and
>> what seems to suit us now - but God looks at the heart and the
>> hereafter. This does not mean that you won't have challanges but
>that
>> you won't look at them as problems deserving getting rid of your
>> partner
>> but something to either work on or accept and live with.
>>
>> Question time:
>> This raises a very important question to me I would like you to
>answer
>> concerning the phase preceeding divorce - marriage. What do we mean
>> when we talk about marriage?
>> 1. Is marriage marriage because God was involved from the onset or
>it
>> is an agreement made by two people to live a committed life to one
>> another with or without God's invitation. If it means God's
>> involvement: in the OT it was said that if one committed as sin of
>> fornication with a virgin, woman, that is, he was to marry that
>woman.
>>
>> Was God involved when was committed and will it be a marital
>> relationship with God's blessings? Or may be marriage in some
>> instances
>> is a punitive measure than a wish of being with a person forever.
>>
>> 2. In cases where one is married to an unbeliever, I guess God is
>not
>> pleased with the union - if one sees the light should they be
>> divorced
>> or must do like Paul once almost suggested that one should hang in
>> there
>> may be the partner will see the light through you?
>>
>> 3. Vat en set, what should they do - they have sinned not once, but
>> have lived and are living like husband and wife - when they repent
>and
>> want to make right what was wrong must they get married or live
>> seperate
>> lives?
>>
>> Conclusion
>> I guess in cases of divorce it is difficult to come with a rug
>> solution
>> to a problem, concerning individuals divorced, unless we sit down
>with
>> them. Another point worth considering is that most God loving
>> divorced
>> couples still love one another but cannot go on in the relationship
>> because of the other partners lifestyle or abuse or the memory. If
>> you
>> can get rid of what disturbs the relationship they can be a happy
>> couple, again. Strange enough, when people get involved they know
>and
>> accept that they are not angels and getting involved with no angels
>> either, but things that happen in some marriages make you wonder if
>> she
>> or he is not the demon.
>>
>> Just like being married I guess some divorced couples shouldn't
>have,
>> according to God they would have made it together, I believe. If I
>am
>> right this gives us a problem on determining, if its our duty, who
>> should be divorced and who shouldn't. In that case all I should do
>is
>> to take care of the divorced sister or brother and make sure that
>she
>> or
>> he does not need. But, of course, there are limits in taking care
>of
>> the brother or sister.
>>
>> This is no simple matter - God help us understand and accept our
>> circumstances if we cannot change them.
>>
>> Pastor Papu: the quotation is from Messages to young peple
>somewhere.
>>
>> Lungani
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/29/99 06:33PM >>>
>> Tankiso, and those who shared some insights on divorce
>>
>> Why are so many people divorcing? Well the most qualified to
>answer,
>> are probably those who have gone through the experience. At the end
>> of
>> this short discussion I would like to share one or two things I
>think
>> we
>> should do to stop this scourge.
>>
>> If they should not divorce what should they do? Be battered and
>> finally murdered in a relationship? Be emotionally and
>> psychologically
>> abused to the extent that they lose their humanity and dignity in
>the
>> process? Sit by to baby sit the children that have been fathered or
>> mothered by the spouse in some extra marital relationship? Blessed
>> are
>> those who die in their marital relationship for to them belongs the
>> kingdom of God? Blessed are those who suffer and are humiliated and
>> their trust betrayed, for great is their reward in heaven. Cursed
>is
>> the person who divorces his/her spouse for God hates divorce.
>>
>> I know it may be very easy for some of us to theorise on this
>issue.
>>
>> The above represent some of the reasons why people divorce, if we
>> say
>> they should not divorce, we should also be bold enough to tell them
>> what
>> they should do. Here is my list of things we can do, to prevent the
>> factors that led to divorce.
>>
>> 1. The church should stop teaching that Marriage is a must -
>> Many in support of this false teaching have misused what God said
>to
>> Adam, "It is not good for man to be alone..." as meaning that all
>> should get married. I do not think that this was referring to us
>but
>> to
>> Adam, if it is true, then where do we put Christ? Because many
>> believe
>> that there is something wrong if they do not marry, they throw
>> themselves at the first person that says I want to marry you, and
>> this
>> is often the reason for divorce. Marriage become the reason for
>> one's
>> existence, this reminds me of the ante-deluvians!
>>
>> 2. There is no Biblical support for a "rib theory"
>> Because Eve was taken from the side of Adam, some have deduced from
>> this, that every person has a rib somewhere that belongs to him or
>> her.
>> This cannot make sense, for how many ribs can a person have? What
>if
>> the first spouse dies after a year or twenty, was that your rib?
>Will
>> the second person be your rib too? Or are we talking about one rib
>> at
>> a time? People divorce thinking that they married a wrong person,
>and
>> they start a long search for a lost rib/person that was created for
>> him/her. The person you marry is the right one, make things work,
>> there is no better one anywhere, that is my opinion.
>>
>> 3. Love has been over-romanticised
>> Today many of those who say they are in love prove to be in love
>with
>> love. They love the feeling they are experiencing and when that
>> disappears, they go searching for a person who will provoke that
>> feeling. Love is a principle and not a feeling (EG White
>somewhere).
>>
>> The best definition of love is found in 1 Cor. 13, maybe we need to
>> read
>> it often. Because God has been removed from love, love has become
>a
>> destructive feeling that knows no limits.
>>
>> 4 Marriage thrives in Interdependence and not Codependence
>> We have taught and have come to believe that in order to be
>romantic,
>> we must psyche ourselves into believing that we cannot do without
>our
>> spouses. What we call love is nothing but obsession. You
>frequently
>> hear people saying to each other, "You are my life, without you, I
>> would
>> die, what can I do without you? This to me is a language of
>worship
>> and not love. Many people are worshipping their spouse, and as
>such
>> make themselves vulnerable to abuse. People should be encouraged to
>> be
>> independent, to be able to stand on their own, Marriage is not an
>> institution for people who are sick or those who need happiness.
>Let
>> people find happiness before and not in marriage. Sharing must take
>> place in marriage and not "sucking". We should find God first
>before
>> we
>> can commit ourselves to anyone, anything less than this is a recipe
>> for
>> disaster.
>>
>> 5.Wait, let me stop, for now, and give you a chance to engage
>with
>> the above.
>>
>> Divorce is a serious matter, so should our discussion, simplistic
>> solution will not do.
>>
>> Marriage is a holy institution but not every union is holy -
>>
>> Love at home
>>
>> Jongimpi
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tankiso Letseli <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
>> To: SA-SDA <sa-sda@onelist.com>
>> Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:53 PM
>> Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
>>
>>
>> I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging
>> from
>> salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and
>> seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is
>fast
>> becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There were
>> times
>> when we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of divorce in our
>> ranks. I think we are coming to a point where an Adventist will
>know
>> someone or a case in his/her local church which is divorce-related.
>> The
>> same is true with HIV/AIDS challenge. When you say or quote this
>> statement: "God hates divorce!" I can almost hear a person
>remarking:
>>
>> "So What? - Who cares?" I think the issue or plague of divorce will
>> need an approach that is more than quoting the Scriptures - "God
>hates
>> divorce." An approach that will go beyond marital counselling - to
>> the
>> core of the problem. I do not have this approach, too. I am still
>> searching. May be our discussions will help give birth to this
>> envisaged
>> approach.
>>
>> Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or
>conflicts
>> by way of divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that
>bar
>> or discourage them from taking that route. And some of them prefer
>to
>> divorce in spite of many many reasons that should keep them
>together.
>> But they still prefer to go the "divorce" way. May be the cause is
>> not
>> in divorce, because "divorce" is a by-product or a result of an
>eroded
>> relationship between the affected parties, and to a certain extend -
>> an
>> eroded relationship between an individual and his/her God. I
>> sympathise
>> with those who are also their journey to find a solution to this
>> problem.
>>
>> Tankiso Letseli
>> tletseli@mweb.co.za
>>
>>
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:17:35 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: How can we reach the Adventists with the Gospel?
>How can we reach the Adventists with the Gospel?
What kind of question is that?
Isn't the Adventist church the prophesied movement of the last days, they that keep the commandments of God and have faith of Jesus, they that preach the Three angel's message, The only ones who can unravel the mysteries of Bible prophecy? If anybody knows the gospel, isn't obvious who knows?
It is a pity that many continued to die even after Moses made a bronze serpent. Some people where very close to pole where the serpent hanged yet they died. It's like standing near the cross yet far away from Jesus. Being a member of the church that has the gospel but you have never heard it. That sounds very strange, but it is real.
The solution that has been suggested is that we must befriend these non-Christian-Adventists. The question that I then have is 'What does it mean to be a friend of somebody?' What is our definition of friendship?
I think we all realize that it is not an easy task to save those who think they are saved, for ours is the Laodicean problem.
Antibiotics used to be able to kill the bacterias, whoever, the problem which scientist are now experiencing is that these bacterias have developed a resistance to the antibiotics. This is the problem of nominal Adventist; they have developed a resistance not only to powerful sermons but also in some cases to Christian friendship.
What makes the situation even worse is that those who preach in our churches (pastors, elders' etc) seem to assume that everybody has repented. When last did you hear I sermon about repentance in your local church? A friend, who has been in the church all his life, told me that it was only after Pentecoste98 that he realized that he had not truly repented. What are we waiting for? Pentecoste99? No! Let's preach the word!
I will never forget the statement that I heard from Pastor Letseli some few years ago. I think it was at a Camp Meeting, anyway, he talked of how we spend money organizing evangelistic crusades for non-Adventists whereas what we need is to organize a crusade for ourselves, for we need the gospel probably more than non-Adventist.
While we make friends, let's also preach the word!
Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!
Jeremiah
>>> "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@mweb.co.za> 08/30 5:48 AM >>>
Reaching/preaching to an atheist,
This is an interesting topic and it is also true that Jesus Christ had a problem with "religious Jews" more than he did with "unbelieving Greeks." Atheism is a philosophy of life that derives its values and norms from different places, except from God and the Bible. Atheists are persons who subscribe to this philosophy of life. Atheists are secular people. Secularism removes God and His Bible from presiding and residing in the affairs of people. Terms such as "blessings" and "providence" are foreign to secular minded people. They understand a language of "luck," "autonomy," "independence" and "relativism." Secularism operates on the level of lifestyle or praxis. One can also say that there are theists [people who believe in and recognise the existence of God] who, on the level of praxis, are secular [or practical atheists] - something else informs their day-to-day life.
This simply means that there are people who believe in the existence of God, but do not let Him and His Scriptures inform their norms and lifestyle. One can dare to say that some nominal Adventists are to a certain extent secular [or they oppose atheism as a philosophy of life, but on the other hand they subtly subscribe to it on the praxis/lifestyle level]. Most of African peoples are theists [they accept God as the Creator and cause of any existence], but prefer to use "humanistic ideas/new age approach" to inform their lifestyle/praxis. They are caught up in a religious environment from birth to death, but they learn atheism through contact with other atheists, and unfortunately through contact with despondent and unkind believers.
Jongimpi seems to be moving towards the solution to our problem when he argues from the angle of demonstration of Christian praxis, because an atheist "may love what he sees," more than giving an atheist convincing discourses as a way of winning him/her to Jesus Christ. Christianity is, first and foremost, a lifestyle/relationship more than a theory to be debated upon. Ellen G. White, somewhere in her writings, mentions that a likeable and loving Christian is more convincing than theoretic arguments [paraphrased]. Daniel and his three friends were loud in their silence, but silently leading a God-fearing lifestyle - expressed in their diet and worship, and as a result of their silent witnessing for God, Nebuchadnezzar switched religions.
Jongimpi's cry is frightening - "... how can we reach the Adventists with the Gospel?" I may as well comfort him in his cry, and calm his fears because one of the solutions to the topic at issue is right at the heart of his comment - "The best method so far in reaching anyone, is to be a friend to him/her. Give him a chance to see your religion at work in your life. He may love what he sees." I think his statement should not close the discussions, but stimulate further discussions on this topic. What do you think?
Tankiso Letseli
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:02:55 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has written a book called: The Marriage Covenant: A Biblical Study on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage. I think it is the best book on this subject. I highly recommend it; in fact I was so impressed with the book I went and bought a 2nd copy. It can be found at the ABC.
You can also get some chapters of this book on the WEB; here is a link to chapter that deals with the issue of divorce:
http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/marriage/5.html (Those without web access send me a mail at masabatha@yahoo.com)
The view that Bacchiocchi seem to be expressing is that God hates divorce under any circumstances, including adultery (see his arguments in the above link). To address the issues raised by Jongimpi he suggests a conditional separation (a cooling off period). In my experience many couples who chose this option eventually found solution to their problems.
My problem is not necessarily whether people should divorce or not, but how can we prevent a situation where people even think of divorcing?
What are the things that cause one to think that divorce is the best solution? As Jongimpi has correctly pointed out, there are some couples who are divorced while they still living together.
How do we prevent divorce in marriage and divorce out of marriage?
Sorrow and mourning shall flee away!
Jeremiah
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/30 1:32 PM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Ramo
I think that is a difficult question. I could easily say, God does not
allow for divorce, except when one partner has proved to be unfaithful. I
believe this is true and Biblical, but where do we go from there?
Sometimes when we say God does not approve of divorce we sound as if we are
saying he approves of one being abused and dehumanised. Some have stayed
in such relationships preferring to die than to divorce, for God hates
divorce, what does HE love?
I think the solution here is that, according to our church manual, which I
think is in harmony with the Bible in this instance. That if one divorces
for reasons that are unbiblical, God does not recognise that as divorce. In
the eyes of God the person is still married, not that he/she must stay in
the relationship, but is still regarded as married by God. He therefore
cannot enter into any other marital relationship, as long as his/her partner
is still alive.
God hates that which leads to divorce. And to my mind absence of divorce
does not mean presence of happiness in a relationship.
Two hearts that love God cannot be far apart!
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
To: 'sa-sda@onelist.com' <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
From: Ramo Mekoa <ramom@smm.setpoint.co.za>
Jongimpi,
Apart from those that are explicitly mentioned in the bible, does God allow
for divorce on other grounds (such as the ones you alluded to)?
A lot of us have personal experience of living in families that fell apart
due to divorce and can bear witness to the fact that had the marriage not
ended, those involved would be worse off in many ways. While not advocating
divorce, I think that grounds do exist for it in some cases.
Having said all the above, I fully agree with you that if we follow God's
lead prior to committing to anyone, we are setting ourselves up to enjoy
marriage as God meant for us to enjoy it.
Time doth softly, swiftly glide when there's love at home.
Ramodise
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:13:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: 1888 Message
The 1888 message is the message of righteousness by faith as opposed
to salvation by obedience of the law, or Christ's righteousness as
opposed to our righteousness. There are a lot of books and papers
that has been written on this subject. Some have heralded this
message and the 1888 General Conference session as a great turning
point in Adventism.
Let me try to give some background to the 1888 GC session, also know
as the Minneapolis conference. Lets look at some of the characters
that were involved in this conflict:
On hand you had two young men; A T Jones and E J Waggoner who was the
editor of the church publication 'Signs of Times'. On the other hand
you had the church's old guard GI Butler (then GC president) and
Uriah Smith, who was the editor of the Review and Herald.
The conflict was over the law in the book of Galatians. Is the law
spoken of as the schoolmaster the ceremonial law (tradition stand of
the church, it was done away with at the cross) or the moral law (the
1888 message, this means salvation is only though faith),
Waggoner and Jones can be looked upon as pioneers of the teaching of
"Righteousness by faith" in the history of the SDA church, even
though Ellen White who also accepted the message writes that it is
the message she has been preaching many years before 1888. In fact
Waggoner states that he received a vision about this message while
listening to E.G White in 1882.
Here is where the problem started: As soon as this young men found
this message they started printing it on the Signs of times magazine
without first discussing this new teaching with the church
leadership. Moreover, they took this new found truth to the college
students at Healdsberg. The old guard was very upset with all of
this. Butler himself wrote an 85 page rebuttal to Waggoner message
entitled 'The Law in the book of Galatians'. Waggoner in turn
responded with his booklet 'The gospel in the book of Galatians". And
the conflict continued. Both sides refused to listen to the counsel
of E.G White, she rebuked both sides.
At the meantime the old Guard planned that the 1888 GC will be a
place to silence the young men, hoping to use their majority in the
nine-member committee to crush them. Butler could not attend the GC
because of sickness. The majority of the delegates came with strong
prejudices against Jones and Waggoner, who were looked at as
challenging the leadership. Butler was represented by J H Morrison,
who was given a strong message by Butler to stand by the land marks.
The speeches delivered by Waggoner and Jones were not recorded as
nobody thought they would be important. As expected, there was a lot
of opposition to their message. The delegates were divided. EG White
tried to bring the two/three side together without much success. Many
who attended the session came back very discouraged, saying it is the
worst GC session they ever attended, EG White included, however she
said that the message that Jones & Waggoner presented is "the most
precious message which God gave through His servants" Manus 5 1888
At 1888 GC session Stats
World membership: about 2700
Delegates: about 90
Daniel, I hope this gives you some idea of what happened in 1888 GC,
I could continue but I will leave the space for others to add.
The King is even at the door!
Jeremiah
--- Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za> wrote:
> From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
>
> Friends,
>
> What EXACTLY is the 1888 Message? And how is it "the third angel's
> message in verity"? It is interesting to note that it was given to
> the
> church when the church had preached the law until it was dry.
> Secondly,
> the results of the message were wonderful. Church history reveals
> that
> thousands joined the Adventist church because of those messages
> which came
> through Elder Alonzo T. Jones and Elder Waggoner. It is also
> interesting to note that even EGW's focus in writing changed. She
> wrote
> more of "the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world".
> She wrote
> books like Desire of Ages, Steps To Christ. These, together with
> "Christ's
> Object Lessons", are in my opinion her best books.
>
> Lastly, it is interesting to note that some brethren opposed the
> message
> fearing that they will be misled to preach a different message to
> what they considered "Present truth" , i.e the third angel's
> message. EGW had to assure them that the 1888 message was/is "the
> third
> angel's message in verity."
>
> But what exactly is the 1888 message?
>
> One who was there when Elder Jones presented the message wrote:
>
> "The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His
> people
> through Elders Waggoner and Jones. This message was to bring more
> prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice
> for the
> sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith
> in the
> Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of
> Christ,
> which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God.
> Many
> had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to
> His
> divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human
> family.
> All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts
> unto
> men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the
> helpless
> human agent. This is the message that God commanded to be given to
> the
> world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed
> with a
> aloud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a
> large
> measure."
> Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 91, 92
> Chapter Title: Faithful Earnest Warnings
>
> How relevant is this message to our generation? I believe it is
> still the
> message "which is to be given to the world."
>
> Is this the message we preach in our evangelisting campaigns?
> "..the uplifed Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole
> world"
> Or "have we lost sight of Jesus"? Do we "need to have our eyes
> directed
> to His divine person, His merits, His changeless love for the human
> family"?
>
>
> Daniel
> E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
>
>
>
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