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There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Plague of Divorce
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
2. Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
3. Re: New member
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
4. Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
5. Re: New Member
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 12:34:57 +0200
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Plague of Divorce
I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging from salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is fast becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There were times when we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of divorce in our ranks. I think we are coming to a point where an Adventist will know someone or a case in his/her local church which is divorce-related. The same is true with HIV/AIDS challenge. When you say or quote this statement: "God hates divorce!" I can almost hear a person remarking: "So What? - Who cares?" I think the issue or plague of divorce will need an approach that is more than quoting the Scriptures - "God hates divorce." An approach that will go beyond marital counselling - to the core of the problem. I do not have this approach, too. I am still searching. May be our discussions will help give birth to this envisaged approach.
Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or conflicts by way of divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that bar or discourage them from taking that route. And some of them prefer to divorce in spite of many many reasons that should keep them together. But they still prefer to go the "divorce" way. May be the cause is not in divorce, because "divorce" is a by-product or a result of an eroded relationship between the affected parties, and to a certain extend - an eroded relationship between an individual and his/her God. I sympathise with those who are also their journey to find a solution to this problem.
Tankiso Letseli
tletseli@mweb.co.za
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 04:58:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Masabatha Online <masabatha@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
Tankiso,
My pres. I think there is something that you don't understand, it is
allowed to write more than two paragraphs, I was just enjoying your
in-depth analysis when it came to a sudden end, that's not
acceptable, you should give us more than that.
There will be no more divorce!
Jeremiah
--- Tankiso Letseli <tletseli@mweb.co.za> wrote:
> I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging from
> salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and
> seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is
> fast becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There
> were times when we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of
> divorce in our ranks. I think we are coming to a point where an
> Adventist will know someone or a case in his/her local church which
> is divorce-related. The same is true with HIV/AIDS challenge.
> When you say or quote this statement: "God hates divorce!" I can
> almost hear a person remarking: "So What? - Who cares?" I think
> the issue or plague of divorce will need an approach that is more
> than quoting the Scriptures - "God hates divorce." An approach
> that will go beyond marital counselling - to the core of the
> problem. I do not have this approach, too. I am still searching.
> May be our discussions will help give birth to this envisaged
> approach.
>
> Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or conflicts
> by way of divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that
> bar or discourage them from taking that route. And some of them
> prefer to divorce in spite of many many reasons that should keep
> them together. But they still prefer to go the "divorce" way. May
> be the cause is not in divorce, because "divorce" is a by-product
> or a result of an eroded relationship between the affected parties,
> and to a certain extend - an eroded relationship between an
> individual and his/her God. I sympathise with those who are also
> their journey to find a solution to this problem.
>
> Tankiso Letseli
> tletseli@mweb.co.za
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:56:20 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: New member
Preaching to atheist
Well I have a slightly different problem. Mine is on how to reach the
religious?, the theists? This by the way was the greatest challenge that
was faced by Christ. It was not the unbelieving Greek, but the religious
Jew that proved too difficult to reach.
My cry, to make it worse, is how can we reach the Adventists with the
Gospel?
To respond to the issue at hand. The best method so far in reaching
anyone, is to be a friend to him/her. Give him a chance to see your
religion at work in your life. He might love what he sees.
Rescue the perishing, start with me!!!
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Bangisi, Nikelo <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: [sa-sda] New member
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
>Jerry,
>
>I met someone at lunch time today who particularly told me that she is an
>atheist. I thought of the discussion on evangelism that has already been
>discussed. I have been preaching the gospel of a living God to this
>particular lady to a point of my showing her books to read. She would not
>accept anything because she is atheist. The other day she gave me a
>religious note that she got from a church she had visited.
>
>My plea to the whole discussion team is find a way of preaching differently
>to a so-called atheist.
>
>God bless you all.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mashudu Ravhengani [mailto:ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
>Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 3:21 PM
>To: sa-sda@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [sa-sda] New member
>
>
>From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
>Welcome Nick,
>
>You are part of the family,
>
>He is at the door!
>
>Jeremiah
>
>>>> "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com> 08/20 6:31 AM >>>
>From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I am a new contributor to your discussions. May I take this opportunity to
>thank everyone who contributes to the discussions that keep coming up. It
is
>very stimulating to read all the answers and contributions made by all of
>you. I also hope to have a meaningful contribution in the future.
>
>God bless you all
>
>Nick
>
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:33:52 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Re: Plague of Divorce
Tankiso, and those who shared some insights on divorce
Why are so many people divorcing? Well the most qualified to answer, are probably those who have gone through the experience. At the end of this short discussion I would like to share one or two things I think we should do to stop this scourge.
If they should not divorce what should they do? Be battered and finally murdered in a relationship? Be emotionally and psychologically abused to the extent that they lose their humanity and dignity in the process? Sit by to baby sit the children that have been fathered or mothered by the spouse in some extra marital relationship? Blessed are those who die in their marital relationship for to them belongs the kingdom of God? Blessed are those who suffer and are humiliated and their trust betrayed, for great is their reward in heaven. Cursed is the person who divorces his/her spouse for God hates divorce.
I know it may be very easy for some of us to theorise on this issue. The above represent some of the reasons why people divorce, if we say they should not divorce, we should also be bold enough to tell them what they should do. Here is my list of things we can do, to prevent the factors that led to divorce.
1. The church should stop teaching that Marriage is a must -
Many in support of this false teaching have misused what God said to Adam, "It is not good for man to be alone..." as meaning that all should get married. I do not think that this was referring to us but to Adam, if it is true, then where do we put Christ? Because many believe that there is something wrong if they do not marry, they throw themselves at the first person that says I want to marry you, and this is often the reason for divorce. Marriage become the reason for one's existence, this reminds me of the ante-deluvians!
2. There is no Biblical support for a "rib theory"
Because Eve was taken from the side of Adam, some have deduced from this, that every person has a rib somewhere that belongs to him or her. This cannot make sense, for how many ribs can a person have? What if the first spouse dies after a year or twenty, was that your rib? Will the second person be your rib too? Or are we talking about one rib at a time? People divorce thinking that they married a wrong person, and they start a long search for a lost rib/person that was created for him/her. The person you marry is the right one, make things work, there is no better one anywhere, that is my opinion.
3. Love has been over-romanticised
Today many of those who say they are in love prove to be in love with love. They love the feeling they are experiencing and when that disappears, they go searching for a person who will provoke that feeling. Love is a principle and not a feeling (EG White somewhere). The best definition of love is found in 1 Cor. 13, maybe we need to read it often. Because God has been removed from love, love has become a destructive feeling that knows no limits.
4 Marriage thrives in Interdependence and not Codependence
We have taught and have come to believe that in order to be romantic, we must psyche ourselves into believing that we cannot do without our spouses. What we call love is nothing but obsession. You frequently hear people saying to each other, "You are my life, without you, I would die, what can I do without you? This to me is a language of worship and not love. Many people are worshipping their spouse, and as such make themselves vulnerable to abuse. People should be encouraged to be independent, to be able to stand on their own, Marriage is not an institution for people who are sick or those who need happiness. Let people find happiness before and not in marriage. Sharing must take place in marriage and not "sucking". We should find God first before we can commit ourselves to anyone, anything less than this is a recipe for disaster.
5.Wait, let me stop, for now, and give you a chance to engage with the above.
Divorce is a serious matter, so should our discussion, simplistic solution will not do.
Marriage is a holy institution but not every union is holy -
Love at home
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Tankiso Letseli <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
To: SA-SDA <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:53 PM
Subject: [sa-sda] Re: Plague of Divorce
I have been reading with interest several discussions, ranging from salvation by works to evangelism. I appreciated the depth and seriousness we display in addressing issues of faith. Divorce is fast becoming one the scourges in our Adventist community. There were times when we took pride for minimum or zero percentage of divorce in our ranks. I think we are coming to a point where an Adventist will know someone or a case in his/her local church which is divorce-related. The same is true with HIV/AIDS challenge. When you say or quote this statement: "God hates divorce!" I can almost hear a person remarking: "So What? - Who cares?" I think the issue or plague of divorce will need an approach that is more than quoting the Scriptures - "God hates divorce." An approach that will go beyond marital counselling - to the core of the problem. I do not have this approach, too. I am still searching. May be our discussions will help give birth to this envisaged approach.
Most Adventists who resolve their misunderstandings or conflicts by way of divorce are familiar with almost all Biblical texts that bar or discourage them from taking that route. And some of them prefer to divorce in spite of many many reasons that should keep them together. But they still prefer to go the "divorce" way. May be the cause is not in divorce, because "divorce" is a by-product or a result of an eroded relationship between the affected parties, and to a certain extend - an eroded relationship between an individual and his/her God. I sympathise with those who are also their journey to find a solution to this problem.
Tankiso Letseli
tletseli@mweb.co.za
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:48:28 +0200
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: New Member
Reaching/preaching to an atheist,
This is an interesting topic and it is also true that Jesus Christ had a problem with "religious Jews" more than he did with "unbelieving Greeks." Atheism is a philosophy of life that derives its values and norms from different places, except from God and the Bible. Atheists are persons who subscribe to this philosophy of life. Atheists are secular people. Secularism removes God and His Bible from presiding and residing in the affairs of people. Terms such as "blessings" and "providence" are foreign to secular minded people. They understand a language of "luck," "autonomy," "independence" and "relativism." Secularism operates on the level of lifestyle or praxis. One can also say that there are theists [people who believe in and recognise the existence of God] who, on the level of praxis, are secular [or practical atheists] - something else informs their day-to-day life.
This simply means that there are people who believe in the existence of God, but do not let Him and His Scriptures inform their norms and lifestyle. One can dare to say that some nominal Adventists are to a certain extent secular [or they oppose atheism as a philosophy of life, but on the other hand they subtly subscribe to it on the praxis/lifestyle level]. Most of African peoples are theists [they accept God as the Creator and cause of any existence], but prefer to use "humanistic ideas/new age approach" to inform their lifestyle/praxis. They are caught up in a religious environment from birth to death, but they learn atheism through contact with other atheists, and unfortunately through contact with despondent and unkind believers.
Jongimpi seems to be moving towards the solution to our problem when he argues from the angle of demonstration of Christian praxis, because an atheist "may love what he sees," more than giving an atheist convincing discourses as a way of winning him/her to Jesus Christ. Christianity is, first and foremost, a lifestyle/relationship more than a theory to be debated upon. Ellen G. White, somewhere in her writings, mentions that a likeable and loving Christian is more convincing than theoretic arguments [paraphrased]. Daniel and his three friends were loud in their silence, but silently leading a God-fearing lifestyle - expressed in their diet and worship, and as a result of their silent witnessing for God, Nebuchadnezzar switched religions.
Jongimpi's cry is frightening - "... how can we reach the Adventists with the Gospel?" I may as well comfort him in his cry, and calm his fears because one of the solutions to the topic at issue is right at the heart of his comment - "The best method so far in reaching anyone, is to be a friend to him/her. Give him a chance to see your religion at work in your life. He may love what he sees." I think his statement should not close the discussions, but stimulate further discussions on this topic. What do you think?
Tankiso Letseli
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