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There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in today's digest:
1. Re: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
2. Re: RE: RE: Welcome
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
3. Scaring statement from Mrs White
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
4. Re: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
5. Re: Gift
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
6. Re: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
7. Re: Un-Subscribe
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
8. Re: Un-Subscribe
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@xxxx.xx.xxx
9. Re: Un-Subscribe
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
10. RE: RE: RE: Welcome
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@xxx.xx.xxx
11. Re: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@xxxx.xx.xxx
12. Re: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
13. New member
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@xxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:15:39 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
Jongimpi
Thank you for your enlightening response. I now see how works relate to
salvation. You wrote:
"The fruit is the unmistakable evidence of abiding...
But the branch does not boast about the fruit, it is the owner who brags,
or shows off. Producing the fruit is not mandatory, though sometimes we
make it so, it is also not optional, as some of us think, it is
inevitable. Boasting about something that is inevitable is not a sure
sign of intelligence."
I agree with your statement but could you please clarify this: Does it
mean that we fall daily because we are not abiding in Him?
God bless,
Daniel
E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
Phone : +27 11 476 2224 (w)
Cell : +27 83 289 9975
On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Jongimpi Papu wrote:
> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>
> Daniel
> You have raised a very serious and important subject. I accept the
> statement that we are justified by faith but judged by works. The Bible
> makes it clear that God will bring our works to judgement, (Ecc. 12:7, Matt.
> 25:31-45, etc. When God judges the works He wants to see if they are works
> of faith or not. For it is faith that justifies and not works. But
> remember faith without works is dead, (James 2:14-26) . For me to see your
> faith I have to look at your works, but I cannot judge, for it is God alone
> who can examinie the works to see if they result from a genuine faith or
> not.
>
> The group in Matthew 7:21 shows the Judge a list of works they performed ,
> but he was not impressed, for faith was lacking. For in the same passage,
> He says, they did not do His will, and Paul says "without faith it is
> impossible to please Him, or to do his will". But those in Mathew 25, are
> surprised when they are told the things they have done. You see the
> difference, Dan? Like the Pharisee and the publican, you do not present
> your works to God but your sinful heart and your willingness to change.
>
> John puts it simply. He says "without me you can do nothing" Unless the
> branch abides in the tree, it cannot produce the fruit. The fruit is the
> unmistakable evidence of abiding... But the branch does not boast about the
> fruit, it is the owner who brags, or shows off. Producing the fruit is not
> mandatory, though sometimes we make it so, it is also not optional, as some
> of us think, it is inevitable. Boasting about something that is inevitable
> is not a sure sign of intelligence.
>
> That's it Dan, it is your relationship not your works, but you know what I
> mean......
>
> Jongimpi
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:29:29 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Welcome
Greeting members!
How can we reach the lost? It is easy some times to talk and theorize about evangelism.
What are practical things we can do to spread the gospel? What are of those things that some of you have tried and found to be helpful?
What can a young professional, who is on his way to the middle class, do to spread the gospel?
The Advent message to all the world in this generation!
Jeremiah
>>> Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za> 08/16 5:00 AM >>>
Jerry
It was all i mean what you said,it came to mind what you are saying that
is why i asked brethren to help for i have a concern too,maybe you have
a better plan please help for i see the time is running out we need a
miracle i know that God will make a way.the answer to your philosophical
question is NO.
Sam
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mashudu Ravhengani [SMTP:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 4:08 PM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] Welcome
>
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
> Sam,
> What do you mean by inflatrating their churches?
> You mean you will pretend to be their member? Sing as they sing, dance
> as they do?
> Won't it be living a lie? fooling them by prentending to be one of
> them?
> Here is the great philosophical question: Is it right to fool people
> for their own good?
>
> Peace!
>
> Jeremiah
>
> >>> Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za> 08/10 2:59 AM >>>
> Greetings
>
> I would like to appreciate the opportunity given to us to share
> whatever
> news or opinions we have without censorship.
> Introducing Samuel Molefe Mthunzi Mthimkhulu,known as Sam,i grew up in
> Tornado NW and moved to Pretoria in '90 and studied at TNT,I am
> currently working at the same company from 95 till today working as
> the
> Internal Auditor.i am unmarried(soon my status will change pray for
> me)my interest are evangelism,social discussion.
> I want to share something with you that is bothering me for we have
> crusades and people do not attend i was thinking what about
> infiltration
> to this churches?i hope you will help.
> May God bless you
>
> Mthunzi
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:55:04 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@xxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Scaring statement from Mrs White
Friends,
I've always felt insecure and sometimes discouraged when reading the
following statement from The Great Controvery, page 490, chapter title
"Facing our Life Record":
"Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will
examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny
as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested
and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing."
This does not give me an assurance of salvation. If God were to search my
life record with such scrutiny (AS IF I WERE THE ONLY BEING UPON THE
EARTH) how can I survive? If God would be looking for somebody "without
spot or wrinkle or any such thing" how can a sinner like me make it to the
kingdom?
This could be one of the reasons why so many adventists don't have
assurance of salvation. When asked "Are you saved?" many hesitate to say
"Yes". Does adventism give us assurance of salvation? Why should God
scrutinize our life records? You should find a "wrinkle" in someone's life
if you examine "with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not
another being upon the earth." I find this statement, by EGW, incompatible
with Gospel Message. Please note that I respect Mrs White and I believe
that she was a messenger of God to His faithful remnant.
Labouring to know Christ and Him Crufified,
Bafana
E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
Phone : +27 11 476 2224 (w)
Cell : +27 83 289 9975
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:02:10 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
Daniel,
I think Jongimpi did such and excellent job in presenting this matter will be give more clarify on you question, however I would like to ask you a question. What do you mean by FALLING daily?
And my real question is that are there more than one type of FALLING?
Abiding with Christ does not mean that we will never sin. The difference is that sin no longer have dominion over us. Yes will make mistakes and step on our brothers/sisters toes, and when we realized that we go back to the Father and say we are sorry, like a good parent He forgives us, in this case we die daily!
This is different from someone who FALLS, turn away from God and do his own ways!
That's my attempt
He will come!
Jeremiah
>>> Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za> 08/19 11:15 AM >>>
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
Jongimpi
Thank you for your enlightening response. I now see how works relate to
salvation. You wrote:
"The fruit is the unmistakable evidence of abiding...
But the branch does not boast about the fruit, it is the owner who brags,
or shows off. Producing the fruit is not mandatory, though sometimes we
make it so, it is also not optional, as some of us think, it is
inevitable. Boasting about something that is inevitable is not a sure
sign of intelligence."
I agree with your statement but could you please clarify this: Does it
mean that we fall daily because we are not abiding in Him?
God bless,
Daniel
E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
Phone : +27 11 476 2224 (w)
Cell : +27 83 289 9975
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:40:46 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Gift
Dawn
Your testimony is inspiring, I thank God for a person like you!
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Vice-Rector for Academic Administration <vradmit@hbc.ac.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Gift
>From: "Vice-Rector for Academic Administration" <vradmit@hbc.ac.za>
>
>Thank you for this. I just wanted to add in something I read recently.
>After the war in Rwanda there are a lot of children of soldiers who raped
>some of the girls and killed others. The story of one of these girls was
>told in a recent issue of the Fair Lady magazine. Out of this terrible
>situation came a wonderful little boy. At first she couldn't bear to look
>at him and just "mothered" him out of necessity. But one day when she was
>holding him, he smiled and she realized he was smiling just for her! That
>changed things for her and now she loves him unconditionally. There are
>large communities of women living together in that country now, who support
>and help each other, and don't ask about the past.
>
>I think the best thing you can do for someone who has been through this
>situation is to give them all the love and support you can. It was only
>through the love and support of my family and church that I was able to
deal
>easily with my situation and come out a winner!
>
>There are many who judge a young girl who falls pregnant, either by
accident
>or by rape or any other situation - this does nothing to help that girl or
>keep her close to her church family. Someone in this situation is very
>sensitive to any comment or attitude and care needs to be taken to only
show
>support, love and understanding.
>
>Wishing you a good day!
>
>Dawn
>
>
>>This one is for you Dawn,
>>It was a brave and strong act you took - I know you knew there is always a
>>reason for what one goes through. God made a plan for all of us - even
>though
>>sometimes we seem to do our own things. We must remember God will never
put
>one
>>through a situation that He knows we cannot handle.
>>By the way - this did not happen to me, it happened to somebody that I
>never
>>used to care about, but now I think God send me to be a sister to this
>Girl, and
>>I can see she knows that after what happened to her, someone is praying
for
>her
>>and someone cares - and I always ask God to give me strength to give her
>the
>>support she needs, and she needed someone who won't judge her.
>>Let us pray for the young youth. Pray for me too.
>>
>>SOMEBODY NEEDS US TO HAVE FAITH IN THEM
>>
>>Thabitha
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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>>http://www.onelist.com
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>Check out the FRIENDS & FAMILY program to find out how.
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>====
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>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
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_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:17:30 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
Subject: Re: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
Jeremiah
I'm sorry I used the wrong wrong "Falling". What I meant is that we make
mistakes everyday. Your answer helps clarify what Jongimpi meant.
Daniel
E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
Phone : +27 11 476 2224 (w)
Cell : +27 83 289 9975
South Africa
On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Mashudu Ravhengani wrote:
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
> Daniel,
>
> I think Jongimpi did such and excellent job in presenting this matter will be give more clarify on you question, however I would like to ask you a question. What do you mean by FALLING daily?
> And my real question is that are there more than one type of FALLING?
> Abiding with Christ does not mean that we will never sin. The difference is that sin no longer have dominion over us. Yes will make mistakes and step on our brothers/sisters toes, and when we realized that we go back to the Father and say we are sorry, like a good parent He forgives us, in this case we die daily!
> This is different from someone who FALLS, turn away from God and do his own ways!
>
> That's my attempt
>
> He will come!
>
> Jeremiah
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:57:37 +0200
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Un-Subscribe
This message should not have been sent to me. Is there a problem?
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:00:01 +0200
From: "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Un-Subscribe
Anybody listening? Why do I receive this message? Is there a problem?
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:21:46 -0400
From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
Subject: Re: Un-Subscribe
Tankiso Letseli,
There is no need to worry, we are not un-subscribing you, some one made a mistake and sent the message to the list
Have a nice
The King is even at the door!
Jeremiah
>>> "Tankiso Letseli" <tletseli@mweb.co.za> 08/19 1:57 PM >>>
This message should not have been sent to me. Is there a problem?
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:12:25 +0200
From: Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za>
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Welcome
Jerry
I understand your concern it is my concer too,there is one thing that i
realised about those termed the professionals they think they know too
much yet they do not understand the ways of God, the method i am using
is that i preach to non professionals and this cleaners they are excited
and they talk to the professionals as they clean in their offices and
they asked them where did you get such a nonsense and they tell them it
is me and i receive calls from professionals and we discuss on that
level and the word spread that there is a man who talk things of God in
the differnt way and where ever i meet them its a biblical discussion
for they want to show that the bible and God are not reliable while in
the process somebody understand thats when i get this question what can
i do to become an adventist.that is my attempt to help.
In a special way we are asking for your prayers for this institution for
we are fighting with the devil about this message of the sabbath for
many hear and see, the problem is that they cannot take the decision and
they are many,we need your prayers in this regard
He is moving towards this planet
Sam
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mashudu Ravhengani [SMTP:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 3:29 PM
> To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: RE: RE: [sa-sda] Welcome
>
> From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
>
> Greeting members!
> How can we reach the lost? It is easy some times to talk and theorize
> about evangelism.
> What are practical things we can do to spread the gospel? What are of
> those things that some of you have tried and found to be helpful?
> What can a young professional, who is on his way to the middle class,
> do to spread the gospel?
>
> The Advent message to all the world in this generation!
>
> Jeremiah
>
> >>> Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za> 08/16 5:00 AM >>>
> Jerry
>
> It was all i mean what you said,it came to mind what you are saying
> that
> is why i asked brethren to help for i have a concern too,maybe you
> have
> a better plan please help for i see the time is running out we need a
> miracle i know that God will make a way.the answer to your
> philosophical
> question is NO.
>
> Sam
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mashudu Ravhengani [SMTP:Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 4:08 PM
> > To: sa-sda@onelist.com
> > Subject: Re: RE: [sa-sda] Welcome
> >
> > From: "Mashudu Ravhengani" <Ravhenmj@umdnj.edu>
> >
> > Sam,
> > What do you mean by inflatrating their churches?
> > You mean you will pretend to be their member? Sing as they sing,
> dance
> > as they do?
> > Won't it be living a lie? fooling them by prentending to be one of
> > them?
> > Here is the great philosophical question: Is it right to fool people
> > for their own good?
> >
> > Peace!
> >
> > Jeremiah
> >
> > >>> Sam Mthimkulu <Sammth@tnt.ac.za> 08/10 2:59 AM >>>
> > Greetings
> >
> > I would like to appreciate the opportunity given to us to share
> > whatever
> > news or opinions we have without censorship.
> > Introducing Samuel Molefe Mthunzi Mthimkhulu,known as Sam,i grew up
> in
> > Tornado NW and moved to Pretoria in '90 and studied at TNT,I am
> > currently working at the same company from 95 till today working as
> > the
> > Internal Auditor.i am unmarried(soon my status will change pray for
> > me)my interest are evangelism,social discussion.
> > I want to share something with you that is bothering me for we have
> > crusades and people do not attend i was thinking what about
> > infiltration
> > to this churches?i hope you will help.
> > May God bless you
> >
> > Mthunzi
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> > ----------------------------
> >
> > ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > The King is even at the door!
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
> ----------------------------
>
> Create a list for FRIENDS & FAMILY...
> ...and YOU can WIN $100 to Amazon.com. For details, go to
> http://www.onelist.com/info/onereachsplash3.html
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> The King is even at the door!
> ====
> To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
> To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:15:41 +0200
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
Dan&Jeremiah
I do appreciate the attempt made by Jeremiah to explain the difference
between falling and making mistakes as a Christian. I would like to make
another attempt in trying to explain the issue further. (Remember we are all
making an attempt, we are all students no one is a teacher).
I read the following from Sons and Daughters pg. 54, "To go without
stumbling, we must have an assurance that a hand all powerful will hold us
and an infinite pity will be exercised toward us if we fall."
1John 2:1, is the foundation for the above, "I write these things so that
you do not sin, but if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father..."
A Christian can fall but a nonchristian can never fall. It is only the
person who is walking that runs the risk of falling and not the one who is
sleeping or sitting. Peter fell because he was walking the other
disciples never fell, not because they were good, but because they were safe
in the boat. The advocate, or Jesus as our Priest is there for all the
committed Christian who are doing the miracle by walking to lift them up if
they fall.
In 1 John 3:6, I think John is saying that he who abides in Christ cannot
sin continuously, to me this is not just falling in water,but actually
swimming in water and enjoying it too. (to use Peter's example). For further
reading see (Eph. 2:3; 4:17)
To answer you Dan, Falling can be part of growth for a Christian. This
was David's point in Ps. 51 -13, Peter never forgot that he denied Christ
for the rest of his life, He learnt a lesson he never forgot. To abide in
Christ is to be his child. No parent would throw his child because he fell
as he was learning to walk. Character, remember, is a trend of one' s life
and not the occasional misdeeds or good deeds, (said by E White somewhere).
When we die one day, the only question God will ask is, was the person my
child when he died, and not did he pay the tithe before he died? But do not
forget the illustration of the fruit.
Having said all this, to sin remains a possibility and not a necessity. For
us not to fall daily we must learn to die daily - I think Jeremiah made this
point clearly.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be
lost!
>From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
>
>
>Jongimpi
>
>Thank you for your enlightening response. I now see how works relate to
>salvation. You wrote:
>
>"The fruit is the unmistakable evidence of abiding...
>But the branch does not boast about the fruit, it is the owner who brags,
>or shows off. Producing the fruit is not mandatory, though sometimes we
>make it so, it is also not optional, as some of us think, it is
>inevitable. Boasting about something that is inevitable is not a sure
>sign of intelligence."
>
>I agree with your statement but could you please clarify this: Does it
>mean that we fall daily because we are not abiding in Him?
>
>God bless,
>
>Daniel
>E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
>Phone : +27 11 476 2224 (w)
>Cell : +27 83 289 9975
>
>
>On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Jongimpi Papu wrote:
>
>> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>>
>> Daniel
>> You have raised a very serious and important subject. I accept the
>> statement that we are justified by faith but judged by works. The Bible
>> makes it clear that God will bring our works to judgement, (Ecc. 12:7,
Matt.
>> 25:31-45, etc. When God judges the works He wants to see if they are
works
>> of faith or not. For it is faith that justifies and not works. But
>> remember faith without works is dead, (James 2:14-26) . For me to see
your
>> faith I have to look at your works, but I cannot judge, for it is God
alone
>> who can examinie the works to see if they result from a genuine faith or
>> not.
>>
>> The group in Matthew 7:21 shows the Judge a list of works they performed
,
>> but he was not impressed, for faith was lacking. For in the same
passage,
>> He says, they did not do His will, and Paul says "without faith it is
>> impossible to please Him, or to do his will". But those in Mathew 25,
are
>> surprised when they are told the things they have done. You see the
>> difference, Dan? Like the Pharisee and the publican, you do not present
>> your works to God but your sinful heart and your willingness to change.
>>
>> John puts it simply. He says "without me you can do nothing" Unless
the
>> branch abides in the tree, it cannot produce the fruit. The fruit is
the
>> unmistakable evidence of abiding... But the branch does not boast about
the
>> fruit, it is the owner who brags, or shows off. Producing the fruit is
not
>> mandatory, though sometimes we make it so, it is also not optional, as
some
>> of us think, it is inevitable. Boasting about something that is
inevitable
>> is not a sure sign of intelligence.
>>
>> That's it Dan, it is your relationship not your works, but you know what
I
>> mean......
>>
>> Jongimpi
>
>
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>
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>====
>To subscribe: send a blank email sa-sda-subscribe@onelist.com
>To unsubscribe: send a blank email to sa-sda-unsubscribe@onelist.com
_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:04:40 +0200
From: "Lungani Mfeka" <MfekaL@telkom.co.za>
Subject: Re: Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to be lost!
Dear fellow Christians,
I understand all you've said about falling and dying in Christ. My
problem is with loving a certain sin and still believing that you also
love and wish to develop a relationship with God, is that possible and
doable? Is is possible to love God yet keep on committing the same sin
- not by mistake but because you love it?
Lungani
>>> Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za> 08/20 9:15 AM >>>
From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
Dan&Jeremiah
I do appreciate the attempt made by Jeremiah to explain the difference
between falling and making mistakes as a Christian. I would like to
make
another attempt in trying to explain the issue further. (Remember we
are all
making an attempt, we are all students no one is a teacher).
I read the following from Sons and Daughters pg. 54, "To go without
stumbling, we must have an assurance that a hand all powerful will hold
us
and an infinite pity will be exercised toward us if we fall."
1John 2:1, is the foundation for the above, "I write these things so
that
you do not sin, but if any man sin we have an advocate with the
Father..."
A Christian can fall but a nonchristian can never fall. It is only
the
person who is walking that runs the risk of falling and not the one who
is
sleeping or sitting. Peter fell because he was walking the other
disciples never fell, not because they were good, but because they were
safe
in the boat. The advocate, or Jesus as our Priest is there for all
the
committed Christian who are doing the miracle by walking to lift them
up if
they fall.
In 1 John 3:6, I think John is saying that he who abides in Christ
cannot
sin continuously, to me this is not just falling in water,but actually
swimming in water and enjoying it too. (to use Peter's example). For
further
reading see (Eph. 2:3; 4:17)
To answer you Dan, Falling can be part of growth for a Christian.
This
was David's point in Ps. 51 -13, Peter never forgot that he denied
Christ
for the rest of his life, He learnt a lesson he never forgot. To
abide in
Christ is to be his child. No parent would throw his child because he
fell
as he was learning to walk. Character, remember, is a trend of one' s
life
and not the occasional misdeeds or good deeds, (said by E White
somewhere).
When we die one day, the only question God will ask is, was the person
my
child when he died, and not did he pay the tithe before he died? But
do not
forget the illustration of the fruit.
Having said all this, to sin remains a possibility and not a necessity.
For
us not to fall daily we must learn to die daily - I think Jeremiah made
this
point clearly.
Jongimpi
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
To: sa-sda@onelist.com <sa-sda@onelist.com>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [sa-sda] Bad works have nothing to do with causing us to
be
lost!
>From: Daniel Dlongolo <daniel@4gl.co.za>
>
>
>Jongimpi
>
>Thank you for your enlightening response. I now see how works relate
to
>salvation. You wrote:
>
>"The fruit is the unmistakable evidence of abiding...
>But the branch does not boast about the fruit, it is the owner who
brags,
>or shows off. Producing the fruit is not mandatory, though sometimes
we
>make it so, it is also not optional, as some of us think, it is
>inevitable. Boasting about something that is inevitable is not a
sure
>sign of intelligence."
>
>I agree with your statement but could you please clarify this: Does
it
>mean that we fall daily because we are not abiding in Him?
>
>God bless,
>
>Daniel
>E-mail: daniel@4gl.co.za
>Phone : +27 11 476 2224 (w)
>Cell : +27 83 289 9975
>
>
>On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Jongimpi Papu wrote:
>
>> From: Jongimpi Papu <j.d.papu@mweb.co.za>
>>
>> Daniel
>> You have raised a very serious and important subject. I accept the
>> statement that we are justified by faith but judged by works. The
Bible
>> makes it clear that God will bring our works to judgement, (Ecc.
12:7,
Matt.
>> 25:31-45, etc. When God judges the works He wants to see if they
are
works
>> of faith or not. For it is faith that justifies and not works.
But
>> remember faith without works is dead, (James 2:14-26) . For me to
see
your
>> faith I have to look at your works, but I cannot judge, for it is
God
alone
>> who can examinie the works to see if they result from a genuine
faith or
>> not.
>>
>> The group in Matthew 7:21 shows the Judge a list of works they
performed
,
>> but he was not impressed, for faith was lacking. For in the same
passage,
>> He says, they did not do His will, and Paul says "without faith it
is
>> impossible to please Him, or to do his will". But those in Mathew
25,
are
>> surprised when they are told the things they have done. You see
the
>> difference, Dan? Like the Pharisee and the publican, you do not
present
>> your works to God but your sinful heart and your willingness to
change.
>>
>> John puts it simply. He says "without me you can do nothing"
Unless
the
>> branch abides in the tree, it cannot produce the fruit. The fruit
is
the
>> unmistakable evidence of abiding... But the branch does not boast
about
the
>> fruit, it is the owner who brags, or shows off. Producing the
fruit is
not
>> mandatory, though sometimes we make it so, it is also not optional,
as
some
>> of us think, it is inevitable. Boasting about something that is
inevitable
>> is not a sure sign of intelligence.
>>
>> That's it Dan, it is your relationship not your works, but you know
what
I
>> mean......
>>
>> Jongimpi
>
>
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:31:30 +0200
From: "Bangisi, Nikelo" <NBangisi@corp.anglogold.com>
Subject: New member
Hi all,
I am a new contributor to your discussions. May I take this opportunity to
thank everyone who contributes to the discussions that keep coming up. It is
very stimulating to read all the answers and contributions made by all of
you. I also hope to have a meaningful contribution in the future.
God bless you all
Nick
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